Nagato and Itachi vs Obito and Sasuke

[Lord Tywin]

I added another scenario

 

[KidGamer65]

Well, they're not the same eye, one is Obito's left eye and the other is his right eye. It's pretty clear that he reversed the warp of Kakashi's Kamui from long range by negating the effects of it which denotes an ability. Shi explained that Kagatsuchi grants him the ability to manipulate the Chakra form of the flames or in other words the final form of Amaterasu's flames which has nothing to do with who's chakra created it. However if you don't believe, I guess we can agree to disagree. ​

Well yeah, not the same literal eye, but they come from the same exact person. But we'll have to agree to disagree here. I just don't see how he'd be able to control flames he has no link to.

There's a solid reason as to why Nagato will be making eye contact during the absorption and that is: He doesn't have visual contingency----a second pair of eyes. If Nagato doesn't look at Sasuke then he would not be able to evade anything else for example if Sasuke throws his Katana at Nagato's Skull then he would not see it approaching or the action taking place. There is always a toll to be payed by not keeping visual with an opponent especially when your fighting still is revolved around that.

Not looking at Sasuke at all is not the same as not looking at his eyes, his hands, his torso, his Susanoo, any of those can be replaced when it comes to a focal point. Considering Sasuke's options of attack are extremely limited in the few second window that Nagato is absorbing his Susanoo, whether or not Nagato's fighting style revolves around not making some kind of eye contact or focusing on another body part doesn't matter, because he only has to do that for a few seconds.

Meh, it should possible because by definition the Moguragakure no Jutsu simply channels Chakra from the user's body. So the moment Obito becomes tangible and his body returns the NV's dimension his body will be channeling chakra in the earth, turning it into fine sand. It would be similar to this:

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Hmm. Then I agree you have a point here, but using Doton to reappear pretty much gives Itachi the cue he needs to evade, as Sharingan will see the chakra in the ground. Not to mention Nagato would sense him the moment he became tangible, allowing him to warn Itachi.

Regarding Minato: Nagato can't react to it because he has no knowledge of Kamui, he'll suffer the same fate as Minato however in this case Obito will not be dishing out an opportunity for him to intercept. For Nagato to react with Shinra Tensei he would have to identify the target visually which may include turning his head or torso then proceed to execute the Jutsu so it does require physical some physical reflex as the only way for Nagato to know what or who is making contact with his body is by having a visual.

He doesn't need to know how Kamui works or even Kamui at all to know not to let Obito touch him when he tries to, and Nagato's typical response to attacks of that nature have always been Shinra Tensei. He won't need his eyes to identify the target when he can sense chakra. He'd sense Obito near him and respond accordingly. And I mean, who else would be touching him in an attempt to attack besides his opponent?

The only way Obito gets Nagato before he can react is if he does a surprise attack (which fails due to sensing) or if he is somehow fast enough to touch Nagato before he can mentally react, and he isn't.

Regarding Sasuke: Not just Madara but Orochimaru was also able----by some means---to differentiate between bunshin. Indeed he saw two Itachi's but your way says he had no way of differentiating between the two but since Itachi created the bunshin during their kunai clash, the one he was facing could have been the clone but he knew it wasn't. Madara kept mentioning Sasuke's Doujutsu because it's pattern was very similar to his own; that is, the same Doujutsu which enabled him differentiate between both Mokuton and Kage bunshin and he did indeed state that Sasuke's Doujutsu was as his own.

Not sure how Orochimaru did it, but it doesn't really matter since there's no evidence that Sasuke would be able to replicate it. Not sure what translation you have there, but MP refers specifically

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Straight commas have only been attributed to precognitive abilities. Attributing any of Madara's other Sharingan abilities to Sasuke can't be based on anything factual.

He engaged the original Itachi to begin with, and he knows that the original Itachi didn't switch out during the clash. That's how he knows that the second Itachi throwing the Kunai has to be a clone. Then there's the fact that it's more likely for him to think that Itachi made a handsign during the clash rather than switch out with a clone altogether during the clash.​

 

[Waltz]

Why do you think that Kagutsuchi can control Itachi's Amaterasu, Waltz?​

Well yeah, not the same literal eye, but they come from the same exact person. But we'll have to agree to disagree here. I just don't see how he'd be able to control flames he has no link to.

Will spill some beans. The Idea came from the fact that Kagutsuchi allows manipulation of the Chakra form (it's final appearance) of the flames after [

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] or jointly as they take presence [

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] and that there is no difference between the Amaterasu produced by Itachi and the Amaterasu produced by Sasuke except the donors Chakra. Each person's chakra is different and as such gives off a unique chakra signature (which i'll assume is the reason why you disagree KG) yet Chakra is always a constant: Moulded spiritual and physical energy but Sasuke would have absorbed some of Itachi's DNA via the transplant which would have brought about a change----or mixture in his Chakra signature [

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]. Correlating that if Sasuke now maintains Itachi's chakra signature meshed to his own, then he should be able to have control over Amaterasu created with Itachi's Chakra because it is the uniqueness in your chakra that gives off a Chakra type. Would be similar to Madara's resolve in gaining access to Hashirama's Mokuton by implanting his genetic material. ​

Not looking at Sasuke at all is not the same as not looking at his eyes, his hands, his torso, his Susanoo, any of those can be replaced when it comes to a focal point. Considering Sasuke's options of attack are extremely limited in the few second window that Nagato is absorbing his Susanoo, whether or not Nagato's fighting style revolves around not making some kind of eye contact or focusing on another body part doesn't matter, because he only has to do that for a few seconds.



Hmm. Then I agree you have a point here, but using Doton to reappear pretty much gives Itachi the cue he needs to evade, as Sharingan will see the chakra in the ground. Not to mention Nagato would sense him the moment he became tangible, allowing him to warn Itachi.


He doesn't need to know how Kamui works or even Kamui at all to know not to let Obito touch him when he tries to, and Nagato's typical response to attacks of that nature have always been Shinra Tensei. He won't need his eyes to identify the target when he can sense chakra. He'd sense Obito near him and respond accordingly. And I mean, who else would be touching him in an attempt to attack besides his opponent?

The only way Obito gets Nagato before he can react is if he does a surprise attack (which fails due to sensing) or if he is somehow fast enough to touch Nagato before he can mentally react, and he isn't.



Not sure how Orochimaru did it, but it doesn't really matter since there's no evidence that Sasuke would be able to replicate it. Not sure what translation you have there, but MP refers specifically

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Straight commas have only been attributed to precognitive abilities. Attributing any of Madara's other Sharingan abilities to Sasuke can't be based on anything factual.

He engaged the original Itachi to begin with, and he knows that the original Itachi didn't switch out during the clash. That's how he knows that the second Itachi throwing the Kunai has to be a clone. Then there's the fact that it's more likely for him to think that Itachi made a handsign during the clash rather than switch out with a clone altogether during the clash.

Hmmm..Susano'o is to a great extent transparent; so focusing on Susano'o he'd still be making eye contact with Sasuke and I'm pretty sure Sauce will need less than a few seconds to cast Genjutsu.


Well that would depend on if Itachi would be looking at the ground within Susano'o directly below/behind his standing point which shouldn't be since he has no Intel on Obito's jutsu but I'll agree with your point that Nagato would know the moment he becomes tangible and Itachi's reflexes in this state may be enough for him to react in time.

Shinra-tensei (All-Nature Repulsion).
Ninjutsu, Keke-genkai, offensive, defensive, close range.
Users:Nagato
Invisible hand of God, that repels anything in creation!
Pain Tendou uses this jutsu, utilizing the generated from the users hands repulsive (gravity) force to repel targets away.

What Nagato did against Amaterasu removed this prerequisite but It would be interesting to see Nagato use Shinra Tensei from his back parts. I agree to the rest.

About Sasuke I think it is referring to how Sasuke's EMS has no rounded edges as it's pattern is straight and the Eternal Mangekyo must naturally provide greater precognitive as well as insight abilities as oppose to it's previous states; which I think explains why the EMS allowed Madara do decipher between Bunshin; Sasuke, being the only other candidate with the said Doujutsu.

He wouldn't know if Itachi switched or not because he did not see when the bunshin was created or that it was hiding directly behind Itachi. If he couldn't differentiate between the two then he would have only been assuming that the second Itachi was the bunshin; however there was no mental conflict. ​

 

[KidGamer65]

Will spill some beans. The Idea came from the fact that Kagutsuchi allows manipulation of the Chakra form (it's final appearance) of the flames after [

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] or jointly as they take presence [

You must be registered for see links

] and that there is no difference between the Amaterasu produced by Itachi and the Amaterasu produced by Sasuke except the donors Chakra. Each person's chakra is different and as such gives off a unique chakra signature (which i'll assume is the reason why you disagree KG) yet Chakra is always a constant: Moulded spiritual and physical energy but Sasuke would have absorbed some of Itachi's DNA via the transplant which would have brought about a change----or mixture in his Chakra signature [

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]. Correlating that if Sasuke now maintains Itachi's chakra signature meshed to his own, then he should be able to have control over Amaterasu created with Itachi's Chakra because it is the uniqueness in your chakra that gives off a Chakra type. Would be similar to Madara's resolve in gaining access to Hashirama's Mokuton by implanting his genetic material. ​

Yeah, but I'm sure that a combination of Itachi and Sasuke's chakra wouldn't be the same as Itachi's chakra, so he still shouldn't be able to control it regardless as his chakra signature wouldn't match it.

Hmmm..Susano'o is to a great extent transparent; so focusing on Susano'o he'd still be making eye contact with Sasuke and I'm pretty sure Sauce will need less than a few seconds to cast Genjutsu.

Nope. Susanoo is humongous and it extends far past Sasuke's body. He could look at Susanoo, or the arm coming after him and not even look at Sasuke's body let alone his face.

Well that would depend on if Itachi would be looking at the ground within Susano'o directly below/behind his standing point which shouldn't be since he has no Intel on Obito's jutsu but I'll agree with your point that Nagato would know the moment he becomes tangible and Itachi's reflexes in this state may be enough for him to react in time.

Yeah, I agree that it's iffy whether or not he can react, but I'm sure he can.

What Nagato did against Amaterasu removed this prerequisite but It would be interesting to see Nagato use Shinra Tensei from his back parts. I agree to the rest.

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Right here. He uses it from his back, sides, all around his body.

About Sasuke I think it is referring to how Sasuke's EMS has no rounded edges as it's pattern is straight and the Eternal Mangekyo must naturally provide greater precognitive as well as insight abilities as oppose to it's previous states; which I think explains why the EMS allowed Madara do decipher between Bunshin; Sasuke, being the only other candidate which the said Doujutsu.

He wouldn't know if Itachi switched or not because he did not see when the bunshin was created or that it was hiding directly behind Itachi. If he couldn't differentiate between the two then he would have only been assuming that the second Itachi was the bunshin; however there was no mental conflict.

Bold was never said, and I doubt that EMS is what let him see through shadow clones. I think it's just an ability that Madara himself possessed with his Sharingan. He only had EMS for two confrontations against Hashirama, once when he first got it and another time at VoTE. The way he said it seemed to imply that he's always been able to see through Hashirama's clones in their many battles.

Though there's scans of Sasuke failing to notice the difference between a clone and an original.

-Itachi gets stabbed. [

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]
-They think the original Naruto got stabbed. [

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]​

 

[Waltz]

Yeah, but I'm sure that a combination of Itachi and Sasuke's chakra wouldn't be the same as Itachi's chakra, so he still shouldn't be able to control it regardless as his chakra signature wouldn't match it.

Except there have been several cases where the individuals with meshed Chakra signatures were able to utilize the Chakra of the original donor which supplied them with secondary DNA for what ever purpose. [

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->

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]​

Nope. Susanoo is humongous and it extends far past Sasuke's body. He could look at Susanoo, or the arm coming after him and not even look at Sasuke's body let alone his face.

We did agree that an arm would be sufficient and I was referring to transparency as

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and

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. ​

Bold was never said, and I doubt that EMS is what let him see through shadow clones. I think it's just an ability that Madara himself possessed with his Sharingan. He only had EMS for two confrontations against Hashirama, once when he first got it and another time at VoTE. The way he said it seemed to imply that he's always been able to see through Hashirama's clones in their many battles.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree on this as well because when he issued the statement referring to his Doujutsu being able to decipher the Bunshins it was after he issued the statement that Izuna left him his eyes and their powers [

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]; more so referring to the Eternal Mangekyo and not prior stages of the Sharingan. I'm more inclined to believe that it is an advanced insight ability the Doujutsu grants the user.​

Though there's scans of Sasuke failing to notice the difference between a clone and an original.

-Itachi gets stabbed. [X]
-They think the original Naruto got stabbed. [X]

First link doesn't relate, Sasuke was surprised at the fact that Kabuto stabbed Itachi. Second link also doesn't relate as Sasuke seconds prior entered the location, Naruto called out to him and as he looked in his direction he sees Kaguya grasping him. Nothing here imply's Sasuke thought the original was stabbed. ​

 

[Varrah]

Will spill some beans. The Idea came from the fact that Kagutsuchi allows manipulation of the Chakra form (it's final appearance) of the flames after [

You must be registered for see links

] or jointly as they take presence [

You must be registered for see links

] and that there is no difference between the Amaterasu produced by Itachi and the Amaterasu produced by Sasuke except the donors Chakra. Each person's chakra is different and as such gives off a unique chakra signature (which i'll assume is the reason why you disagree KG) yet Chakra is always a constant: Moulded spiritual and physical energy but Sasuke would have absorbed some of Itachi's DNA via the transplant which would have brought about a change----or mixture in his Chakra signature [

You must be registered for see links

]. Correlating that if Sasuke now maintains Itachi's chakra signature meshed to his own, then he should be able to have control over Amaterasu created with Itachi's Chakra because it is the uniqueness in your chakra that gives off a Chakra type. Would be similar to Madara's resolve in gaining access to Hashirama's Mokuton by implanting his genetic material.​

Yeah, but I'm sure that a combination of Itachi and Sasuke's chakra wouldn't be the same as Itachi's chakra, so he still shouldn't be able to control it regardless as his chakra signature wouldn't match it.

Except there have been several cases where the individuals with meshed Chakra signatures were able to utilize the Chakra of the original donor which supplied them with secondary DNA for what ever purpose. [

You must be registered for see links

->

You must be registered for see links

]​

KG and Waltz, do you think the implications the manga makes of cases revolving around chakra imprints, such as Madara use of Mokuton, Ryūchi Kabuto(sound four and hebi abilities), and others, give chance to Sasuke's Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan right eye’s dōryoku, Kagutsuchi, controlling Itachi's Amaterasu because Sasuke now has Itachi's chakra implant; or are the similarities and dissimilarities of the cases too great that the idea of Sasuke controlling Itachi's Amaterasu is a questionable conclusion from the aforementioned cases, a kind of unwarranted assumption? If so why?


Kagutsuchi, controlling Itachi's Amaterasu because Sasuke has Itachi's chakra implant is an interesting idea, one I've not heard before, so credits to you Waltz.​

 

[Waltz]

Kagutsuchi, controlling Itachi's Amaterasu because Sasuke has Itachi's chakra implant is an interesting idea, one I've not heard before, so credits to you Waltz.

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KG and Waltz, do you think the implications the manga makes of cases revolving around chakra imprints, such as Madara use of Mokuton, Ryūchi Kabuto(sound four and hebi abilities), and others, give chance to Sasuke's Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan right eye’s dōryoku, Kagutsuchi, controlling Itachi's Amaterasu because Sasuke now has Itachi's chakra implant; or are the similarities and dissimilarities of the cases too great that the idea of Sasuke controlling Itachi's Amaterasu is a questionable conclusion from the aforementioned cases, a kind of unwarranted assumption? If so why?

Hmm...

Having complete control of the final form of a technique along side having the genetic material; a Chakra implant, of the only other individual who can produce the said technique is a very rare and unique occurrence.The thought is: EMS Sasuke would not prohibit Itachi from producing Amaterasu but once produced (there is a difference), he has direct control of Itachi's flames via Kagutsuchi due to him possessing Itachi's Chakra signature via the Genetic crossover which was the result of his Eye transplant. The implications are there since Sasuke, who's chakra signature was a mesh between his and Jugo's was able to utilize and be compatible with Jugo's Chakra independently and since there have been cases where the crossover and fusion of Genetic material; Chakra implants, within an individual alters their Chakra signature yet enables the said individual to utilize the properties of this secondary DNA individually (Kabuto, Madara) for what ever purpose the user intends then it should be sufficiently warranted. A single case would have been much more iffy in my opinion, Varrah. ​

 

[Varrah]

Hmm...

Having complete control of the final form of a technique along side having the genetic material; a Chakra implant, of the only other individual who can produce the said technique is a very rare and unique occurrence.The thought is: EMS Sasuke would not prohibit Itachi from producing Amaterasu but once produced (there is a difference), he has direct control of Itachi's flames via Kagutsuchi due to him possessing Itachi's Chakra signature via the Genetic crossover which was the result of his Eye transplant. The implications are there since Sasuke, who's chakra signature was a mesh between his and Jugo's was able to utilize and be compatible with Jugo's Chakra independently and since there have been cases where the crossover and fusion of Genetic material; Chakra implants, within an individual alters their Chakra signature yet enables the said individual to utilize the properties of this secondary DNA individually (Kabuto, Madara) for what ever purpose the user intends then it should be sufficiently warranted. A single case would have been much more iffy in my opinion, Varrah. ​

I would like to agree with your idea and the reasoning behind is well supported; however I am going to withhold judgement until KG responds.​

 

[Uchiha420]

Obito solos all scenarios except when Kakashi is in then it's about mid diff

 

[KidGamer65]

Except there have been several cases where the individuals with meshed Chakra signatures were able to utilize the Chakra of the original donor which supplied them with secondary DNA for what ever purpose. [

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->

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]​

Except that isn't what we are comparing here. They gained those things from directly obtaining their chakra or DNA. Completely different from Sasuke being able to control Itachi's own flames just because his chakra is merged with Itachi's.

We did agree that an arm would be sufficient and I was referring to transparency as

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and

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. ​

Well yeah, forgot that it's just an arm, but the point still stands. Focusing on the arm itself means that he isn't looking into Sasuke's eyes. Susanoo being transparent doesn't matter unless somehow the point Nagato is looking it is aligned perfectly with Sasuke's line of sight, and considering

Then we'll have to agree to disagree on this as well because when he issued the statement referring to his Doujutsu being able to decipher the Bunshins it was after he issued the statement that Izuna left him his eyes and their powers [

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]; more so referring to the Eternal Mangekyo and not prior stages of the Sharingan. I'm more inclined to believe that it is an advanced insight ability the Doujutsu grants the user.​

That statement isn't connected to Madara's statement about seeing through clones though.

First link doesn't relate, Sasuke was surprised at the fact that Kabuto stabbed Itachi. Second link also doesn't relate as Sasuke seconds prior entered the location, Naruto called out to him and as he looked in his direction he sees Kaguya grasping him. Nothing here imply's Sasuke thought the original was stabbed. ​

I'll agree that the second isn't evidence, but the first obviously is. If he was seeing a clone get stabbed, there'd be no reason for him to have a surprised/worried look on his face. Itachi gets stabbed, Sasuke has said face on, but then it's revealed that he stabbed a clone and then Sasuke has a smirk on his face.