Nagato and Itachi vs Obito and Sasuke

[Lord Tywin]

Nagato is mobile.
Itachi is healthy and is in his Edo from. Doesn't have Edo regeneration. Can't use KA.

Sasuke is EMS. Can't use legged Susanoo. V4 Susanoo is the maximum Susanoo protection he can use.
MS Obito. Has another eye for Izanagi

Location is a grassland
Distance is 40M

sc2
Add Kakashi to team 1
Add KCM Naruto to team 2. Kurama is friendly.

sc3
Switch Nagato and Obito. Sasuke can use legged Susanoo.

 

[Mr Major English]

It is quite clear that Hebi Sasuke soloes. Sasuke's exquisite manipulation -- on par with the Sage -- granted him the capacity to wield Orochimaru's senjutsu chakara which is stronger than other senjutsus. Upon such unfathomable power that only -- Sasuke wields it's obvious Nagato and Itachi lose.

Kirin is more --- instant than Hiraishin according to my calculations which are backed up by my intelligence, natural genius, superior education and multiple degrees of Science. Using simple formulas and equations we can discern Kirin's -- instantaneous godlike speed ascending from Heavens, thus establishing Nagato cannot repel with Shinra Tensei.

Sasuke blitzes mid difference -- if you disagree, you're not smart like I am.

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[KidGamer65]

Nagato and Itachi should win mid diff.

1. There is no getting past V4 w/ Yata. Not when Sasuke's strongest move is Kirin, and it was already tanked by Itachi's lesser Susanoo, and not when Obito pretty much has zero firepower to even mention here.

2. There is no hurting Nagato with their offensive attacks. Obito's Mokuton is at a level where Asura Bombs would obliterate it, and Sasuke's Susanoo is chakra, thus food for Preta Path. Same goes for his Enton, and Amaterasu. Genjutsu is a pointless attempt to make when Itachi is his partner anyway.

Their only chance is to warp them both with Kamui, but considering that:

-Susanoo can be activated to hit Obito if he tries to warp Itachi.
-Shinra Tensei slams Obito into the ground if he tries to warp Nagato.
-Itachi also has clones to feint Obito out.

Match ends with Sasuke's Susanoo being destroyed/absorbed and being killed alongside Obito, who will probably go down after a very lengthy battle. Tbh Obito would have trouble beating Edo Itachi alone if at all. I can argue Itachi beating Obito, and Nagato stomping Sasuke. S2 only makes it worse, because now they have the key to shutting Obito down, and KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke can't take out Nagato, even if they could, with support from Itachi it becomes an easy fight.

 

[Waltz]

Nagato and Itachi should win mid diff.

Probably correct 9/10 times since this is a haxxed Itachi but..

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Arguably high diff each time. Will elaborate with a few counters. ​

There is no getting past V4 w/ Yata. Not when Sasuke's strongest move is Kirin, and it was already tanked by Itachi's lesser Susanoo, and not when Obito pretty much has zero firepower to even mention here.

Disagree. Obito could take Sasuke inside of Itachi's Susano'o with Kamui to take out Itachi with an Enton Katana and Yata isn't stopping that. ​

There is no hurting Nagato with their offensive attacks. Obito's Mokuton is at a level where Asura Bombs would obliterate it, and Sasuke's Susanoo is chakra, thus food for Preta Path. Same goes for his Enton, and Amaterasu. Genjutsu is a pointless attempt to make when Itachi is his partner anyway.

True that Preta would absorb any chakra based jutsu but that does not mean Sasuke won't be able to utilize Jutsu. Genjutsu would work on Nagato and Itachi isn't stopping that especially if occupied. If Sasuke catches him in one for the slightest second then he has his head removed. ​

-Susanoo can be activated to hit Obito if he tries to warp Itachi.
-Shinra Tensei slams Obito into the ground if he tries to warp Nagato.
-Itachi also has clones to feint Obito out.

- Unless he grabs his leg beneath the ground.
- Nagato's reflexes aren't that flashy.
- Depends on if Itachi can make a clone faster than Kamui's warp torque.​

Match ends with Sasuke's Susanoo being destroyed/absorbed and being killed alongside Obito, who will probably go down after a very lengthy battle. Tbh Obito would have trouble beating Edo Itachi alone if at all. I can argue Itachi beating Obito, and Nagato stomping Sasuke. S2 only makes it worse, because now they have the key to shutting Obito down, and KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke can't take out Nagato, even if they could, with support from Itachi it becomes an easy fight.

That's not happening when Obito and Sasuke have full intel on Itachi's abilities (to some extent Nagato as well) and together possess potential counters for his Jutsu. I'll concur that the battle will be lengthy, adding Kakashi to the first team results in a stomp however adding KCM Naruto to the Second team could result in victory if Naruto loan's Sasuke and Obito Chakra from the Kyuubi and places a clone within Sasuke's Susnao'o to gather Natural Energy----substituting for Jugo. Sasuke in that state and a KCM Clone could arguably occupy Itachi long enough for Obito and the Original Naruto to defeat Nagato.​

 

[Unorthodox]

Unrestrict legged susanoo then its a better match

Nagato could solo he has nothing to fear fighting sasuke obito kamui warps to dlow Shira tensei Sasuke gets flattened with CST

 

[KidGamer65]

Probably correct 9/10 times since this is a haxxed Itachi but..

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Arguably high diff each time. Will explain with a few counters. ​

Disagree. Obito could take Sasuke inside of Itachi's Susano'o with Kamui to take out Itachi with an Enton Katana and Yata isn't stopping that. ​

Obito becomes tangible when he warps. If he tries to initiate a warp, Itachi or Nagato would be able to strike him, and since Shinra Tensei and Amaterasu are pretty much instant, or rather much faster than Obito can warp himself or a person, his warp is canceled each and every time.

Then there's the fact that Amaterasu would stop Sasuke if he got that close to Itachi.

True that Preta would absorb any chakra based jutsu but that does not mean Sasuke won't be able to utilize Jutsu. Genjutsu would work on Nagato and Itachi isn't stopping that especially if occupied. If Sasuke catches him in one for the slightest second then he has his head removed. ​

If Sasuke wants to have a chance at landing Genjutsu on Nagato, he'll first have to deal with his summons which grant him linked vision, and he'll have to get close enough to where eye contact could be actually forced, and that's an excellent way for him to die.

- Unless he grabs his leg beneath the ground.
- Nagato's reflexes aren't that flashy.
- Depends on if Itachi can make a clone faster than Kamui's warp torque.​

-Won't work. He has to be tangible to warp with Kamui, so he'll have to come out of the ground so that he's not overlapping with anything and then he'll have to warp. Nagato's reflexes don't need to be flashy when Obito's speed isn't flashy itself. The only thing that is extremely fast is the speed of his Kamui, not the speed of him reaching to grab his opponent. Obito himself has shown to rival Kakashi in the speed and reactions department.

-It'd be smarter to do it before, not during. If Itachi gets caught during a warp,

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cancels it and crushes Obito in the process if he's late to react,

That's not happening when Obito and Sasuke have full intel on Itachi's abilities (to some extent Nagato as well) and together possess potential counters for his Jutsu. I'll concur that the battle will be lengthy, adding Kakashi to the first team results in a stomp however adding KCM Naruto to the Second team could result in victory if Naruto loan's Sasuke and Obito Chakra from the Kyuubi and places a clone within Sasuke's Susnao'o to gather Natural Energy----substituting for Jugo. Sasuke in that state and a KCM Clone could arguably occupy Itachi long enough for Obito and the Original Naruto to defeat Nagato.​

Naruto has to be in BM to share chakra. He was in KCM for a good 2-3 chapters yet never shared any chakra despite Sai asking. Though if he can share chakra then they'd pretty much obliterate the competition. Though I disagree with Naruto being able to do what Jugo did. That's an ability Jugo himself has, not all Senjutsu users.

 

[Waltz]

Obito becomes tangible when he warps. If he tries to initiate a warp, Itachi or Nagato would be able to strike him, and since Shinra Tensei and Amaterasu are pretty much instant, or rather much faster than Obito can warp himself or a person, his warp is canceled each and every time.

Then there's the fact that Amaterasu would stop Sasuke if he got that close to Itachi.

Hmm, the reason I abhor when versus threads are made without specifying things like Intel because it does make a difference. If intel is full then what you say has some merit but wouldn't work because Obito would know that Amaterasu and Shinra-Tensei could affect himif he's tangible at that point and warp him while being covered by an adequate state of Sasuke's Susano'o instead. If intel is Manga then although Itachi could use Amaterasu or Nagato-Shinra Tensei it's highly unlikely since they would be in unawares to the inner workings of Kamui. Also he's not using Amaterasu while in Susano'o because it require's both eye's to surface, Sasuke could negate it with Kagutsuchi by outing the flames, the time factor plays a tremendous role. ​

If Sasuke wants to have a chance at landing Genjutsu on Nagato, he'll first have to deal with his summons which grant him linked vision, and he'll have to get close enough to where eye contact could be actually forced, and that's an excellent way for him to die.

Not an issue since Obito will relay what he know's of the Rin'negan to Sasuke and Sasuke will blind all of them with Chidori Senbon or Enton spikes [

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] and since Nagato has had no exposure to Sharingan Genjutsu he is likely to be trapped in one. Do recall him only being able stop Fukusaku and Shima's second attempt at their Genjutsu because he was exposed to it before. Sasuke could simply bait him to utilize Preta to absorb a jutsu with Gakido which would result in Sasuke gaining the needed proximity for ocular Genjutsu to take effect. ​

-Won't work. He has to be tangible to warp with Kamui, so he'll have to come out of the ground so that he's not overlapping with anything and then he'll have to warp. Nagato's reflexes don't need to be flashy when Obito's speed isn't flashy itself. The only thing that is extremely fast is the speed of his Kamui, not the speed of him reaching to grab his opponent. Obito himself has shown to rival Kakashi in the speed and reactions department.

-It'd be smarter to do it before, not during. If Itachi gets caught during a warp, this cancels it and crushes Obito in the process if he's late to react,

If Obito could have placed Deidara's C2 beneath the ground then he was tangible while therewhich throws your reference far from being a prerequisite. Namikaze could not evade the "Grap-to-warp" motion with Shunshin [

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] and had to resort to Hirashin as a means to evade----then they need to be flashy and since they evidently are not, he'll be warped. ​

-It'd be smarter to do it before, not during. If Itachi gets caught during a warp, this cancels it and crushes Obito in the process if he's late to react,

Doable to a small extent. The Sharingan would be able to differentiate the bunshin however if the scenario does play, the bunshin itself does not cancel Kamui, it would still be warped. ​

Naruto has to be in BM to share chakra. He was in KCM for a good 2-3 chapters yet never shared any chakra despite Sai asking. Though if he can share chakra then they'd pretty much obliterate the competition. Though I disagree with Naruto being able to do what Jugo did. That's an ability Jugo himself has, not all Senjutsu users.

Agreed with the bold. It was simply this: Jugo gathered Shizen Enerugi while within the Susano'o and given Sasuke's adaptation to the energy his Susano'o absorbed and merged with the energy from Jugo [

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]. Naruto's bunshin would replicate it. ​

 

[ARGUS]

Nagato and Itachi win mid diff,

Nagato shits on Sasuke especially when he doesnt even have legged susanoo, whereas there isnt much that Obito could do to Itachi,
and once Sasuke gets finished, Obito stands no chance at all

 

[Lariatoo]

Team one mid diff.
Scenario 2 as well.

 

[KidGamer65]

Hmm, the reason I abhor when versus threads are made without specifying things like Intel because it does make a difference. If intel is full then what you say has some merit but wouldn't work because Obito would know that Amaterasu and Shinra-Tensei could affect himif he's tangible at that point and warp him while being covered by an adequate state of Sasuke's Susano'o instead. If intel is Manga then although Itachi could use Amaterasu or Nagato-Shinra Tensei it's highly unlikely since they would be in unawares to the inner workings of Kamui. Also he's not using Amaterasu while in Susano'o because it require's both eye's to surface, Sasuke could negate it with Kagutsuchi by outing the flames, the time factor plays a tremendous role. ​

You have a point here, if Obito is protected then he can warp safely. Though underlined is false. Sasuke's already used Amaterasu while in Susanoo. It needing both eyes doesn't prevent the user from utilizing his other MS techs, and Kagutsuchi only works on Sasuke's flames, not Itachi's.

Not an issue since Obito will relay what he know's of the Rin'negan to Sasuke and Sasuke will blind all of them with Chidori Senbon or Enton spikes [

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] and since Nagato has had no exposure to Sharingan Genjutsu he is likely to be trapped in one. Do recall him only being able stop Fukusaku and Shima's second attempt at their Genjutsu because he was exposed to it before. Sasuke could simply bait him to utilize Preta to absorb a jutsu with Gakido which would result in Sasuke gaining the needed proximity for ocular Genjutsu to take effect. ​

Point with the summons, but he was able to counter Fukasaku and Shima's Genjutsu because he knew what was coming, and mainly because they had nowhere to hide this time. Has nothing to do with Sharingan Genjutsu. And that all depends on what jutsu he uses to bait Nagato. Though it's not like he has a jutsu that'd force Nagato to absorb long enough for him to get in his face bar Susanoo.

But to be on the safe side, Itachi can just support Nagato w/ a shadow clone utilizing it's own form of Susanoo.

If Obito could have placed Deidara's C2 beneath the ground then he was tangible while therewhich throws your reference far from being a prerequisite. Namikaze could not evade the "Grap-to-warp" motion with Shunshin [

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] and had to resort to Hirashin as a means to evade----then they need to be flashy and since they evidently are not, he'll be warped. ​

There isn't even a shred of evidence that he used Kamui to sink into the ground.

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it's clear he was using Hiding like a mole. Minato didn't evade the grab to warp method because he chose to attack instead of evading. He chose to attack, thus his attack was phased through and he was caught. What happens after is irrelevant as I said that Nagato would react to Obito trying to grab him, not the warp itself.

And even then, Minato needing Hiraishin only means:

1. Shunshin is too slow.
2. He couldn't Shunshin because he was being dragged in.

Says little about Nagato's capacity to mentally process being pulled into the Kamui world.

Doable to a small extent. The Sharingan would be able to differentiate the bunshin however if the scenario does play, the bunshin itself does not cancel Kamui, it would still be warped. ​

Only Madara's Sharingan can differentiate between clones. Obito has no such ability. When Obito warps a clone, he'd be finished from both sides like Kakashi did, but that only works if Itachi has prior intel on Kamui, or if he somehow figured out how it worked during the fight, which is nigh impossible.

Agreed with the bold. It was simply this: Jugo gathered Shizen Enerugi while within the Susano'o and given Sasuke's adaptation to the energy his Susano'o absorbed and merged with the energy from Jugo [

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]. Naruto's bunshin would replicate it. ​

No, Jugo had to actually pump the Senjutsu Chakra out of his body onto Sasuke's Susanoo. We don't know if Naruto can pull that off.

 

[Mystikk]

Nagato and Itachi should win mid diff.

1. There is no getting past V4 w/ Yata. Not when Sasuke's strongest move is Kirin, and it was already tanked by Itachi's lesser Susanoo, and not when Obito pretty much has zero firepower to even mention here.

2. There is no hurting Nagato with their offensive attacks. Obito's Mokuton is at a level where Asura Bombs would obliterate it, and Sasuke's Susanoo is chakra, thus food for Preta Path. Same goes for his Enton, and Amaterasu. Genjutsu is a pointless attempt to make when Itachi is his partner anyway.

Their only chance is to warp them both with Kamui, but considering that:

-Susanoo can be activated to hit Obito if he tries to warp Itachi.
-Shinra Tensei slams Obito into the ground if he tries to warp Nagato.
-Itachi also has clones to feint Obito out.

Match ends with Sasuke's Susanoo being destroyed/absorbed and being killed alongside Obito, who will probably go down after a very lengthy battle. Tbh Obito would have trouble beating Edo Itachi alone if at all. I can argue Itachi beating Obito, and Nagato stomping Sasuke. S2 only makes it worse, because now they have the key to shutting Obito down, and KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke can't take out Nagato, even if they could, with support from Itachi it becomes an easy fight.

Couldnt of said it any better myself .. haha thankyou.. itachi and nagato destroys your fav. 2 haahah

 

[Waltz]

You have a point here, if Obito is protected then he can warp safely. Though underlined is false. Sasuke's already used Amaterasu while in Susanoo. It needing both eyes doesn't prevent the user from utilizing his other MS techs, and Kagutsuchi only works on Sasuke's flames, not Itachi's.

There's no difference between Sasuke's Amaterasu and Itachi's besides who is producing the Jutsu. Kagutsuchi grants Sasuke control over flames. I'll agree to the rest and that it can be applied to Itachi. ​

Point with the summons, but he was able to counter Fukasaku and Shima's Genjutsu because he knew what was coming, and mainly because they had nowhere to hide this time. Has nothing to do with Sharingan Genjutsu. And that all depends on what jutsu he uses to bait Nagato. Though it's not like he has a jutsu that'd force Nagato to absorb long enough for him to get in his face bar Susanoo.

But to be on the safe side, Itachi can just support Nagato w/ a shadow clone utilizing it's own form of Susanoo.

@ Bold: It does for the reason you yourself stated: If Nagato did not know what was coming then he would have been caught once more however since he knew then he intercepted them within the process. The same apply's for Sharingan Genjutsu since the exposure Nagato has had to this is absolutely none then he logically will not be taking any meaningful precautionary measures. Susano-o's arm would be sufficient as Nagato would opt for absorbing the Chakra. ​

But to be on the safe side, Itachi can just support Nagato w/ a shadow clone utilizing it's own form of Susanoo.

True which would result in a secondary chain of events as Sasuke would then need Obito's support to overcome both but ultimately underlines the reason why I agree that Team one would be victorious. ​

There isn't even a shred of evidence that he used Kamui to sink into the ground. Considering he was shown popping out of the ground, it's clear he was using Hiding like a mole. Minato didn't evade the grab to warp method because he chose to attack instead of evading. He chose to attack, thus his attack was phased through and he was caught. What happens after is irrelevant as I said that Nagato would react to Obito trying to grab him, not the warp itself.

And even then, Minato needing Hiraishin only means:

1. Shunshin is too slow.
2. He couldn't Shunshin because he was being dragged in.

Says little about Nagato's capacity to mentally process being pulled into the Kamui world.

I'm pretty much aware but apparently you didn't see the correlation. If Obito can maneuver underground while tangible then combining this ability with Kamui results in him being able to grab Itachi's leg beneath the ground. You're wrong regarding the bold: The "Grap-to-Warp" motion took place after Namikaze performed his attack. The chain of events were:

-> Namikaze senses Obito's presence and performed an attack [

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]
-> The attack fails when Obito grabs his arm, say's a few words and them proceeds to warp him [

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] Yet the only evasive option available was for Namikaze to use Hirashin and Obito notes in the final panel-segment that he could have warped him in a shorter span of time.

If Shunshin is too slow; then Nagato's reflexes are no where near enough to intercept the "Grasp-to-Warp" motion. Then again Nagato has poor reflexes to begin with hence why it had to be supported by the Rin'negan's linked vision as noted by Kabuto.​

Only Madara's Sharingan can differentiate between clones. Obito has no such ability. When Obito warps a clone, he'd be finished from both sides like Kakashi did, but that only works if Itachi has prior intel on Kamui, or if he somehow figured out how it worked during the fight, which is nigh impossible.

You mean Madara's Eternal Mangekyo is the only Doujutsu that can differentiate between Hashirama's Mokuton-Bunshin (which differ from the regular bunshin). Hebi Sasuke differentiated between Itachi's Bunshin's with a 3 tomoe Sharingan. @ He wouldn't be finished from both sides because he can warp the Bunshin to a different location within Kamui's realm as he did for Fu and Torune. Recalling that Obito warped Fu and Torune and later on warped Sasuke as well as Karin however the prior two were not in the same location as the latter two. Thus, even with intelligence as a factor Obito can negate such an occurrence by warping the bunshin to a different location. ​

No, Jugo had to actually pump the Senjutsu Chakra out of his body onto Sasuke's Susanoo. We don't know if Naruto can pull that off.

Orochimaru explained its the same principle as Jugo supplying Sasuke with Natural Energy at the hideout via physical contact: Jugo placed his arm on Sasuke and absorbed Natural energy and it then transferred to Sasuke. Similarly Jugo absorbed Natural Energy and transferred it to the Susano'o which he was in physical contact with. Naruto has already showcased the ability (Which the Kyuubi elaborated upon) of transferring his chakra in order to adapt it to another person's specific chakra type however in this case it is Sage Chakra or Natural Energy and no adaptation is necessary as Sasuke's Susano'o will readily absorb it. ​

 

[Lord Tywin]

Intel is manga

 

[TRE MERCER]

Obito damn nearly solo's.​

 

[KidGamer65]

There's no difference between Sasuke's Amaterasu and Itachi's besides who is producing the Jutsu. Kagutsuchi grants Sasuke control over flames. I'll agree to the rest and that it can be applied to Itachi. ​

One is Sasuke's chakra. The other is Itachi's chakra, Kagutsuchi controls the flames made by Sasuke, not the flames made by Itachi.

@ Bold: It does for the reason you yourself stated: If Nagato did not know what was coming then he would have been caught once more however since he knew then he intercepted them within the process. The same apply's for Sharingan Genjutsu since the exposure Nagato has had to this is absolutely none then he logically will not be taking any meaningful precautionary measures. Susano-o's arm would be sufficient as Nagato would opt for absorbing the Chakra. ​

No. That doesn't apply here, because knowing not only wasn't the main reason he was caught the first time, never experiencing Sharingan Genjutsu doesn't mean that he doesn't know how it's cast. Knowing how it's cast was one of the reasons why Nagato was able to stop the elder toads the second time around. Your point doesn't hold unless you think Nagato doesn't know how Sharingan Genjutsu is cast.

Ok then. We'll say he gets close. Preta Path absorbs a V2 cloak whole in a matter of seconds. He'd take Sasuke's Susanoo's arm and repel him w/ Shinra Tensei even faster than that.

True which would result in a secondary chain of events as Sasuke would then need Obito's support to overcome both but ultimately underlines the reason why I agree that Team one would be victorious. ​

Then I'll address everything below.

I'm pretty much aware but apparently you didn't see the correlation. If Obito can maneuver underground while tangible then combining this ability with Kamui results in him being able to grab Itachi's leg beneath the ground. You're wrong regarding the bold: The "Grap-to-Warp" motion took place after Namikaze performed his attack. The chain of events were:

-> Namikaze senses Obito's presence and performed an attack [

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]
-> The attack fails when Obito grabs his arm, say's a few words and them proceeds to warp him [

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] Yet the only evasive option available was for Namikaze to use Hirashin and Obito notes in the final panel-segment that he could have warped him in a shorter span of time.

If Shunshin is too slow; then Nagato's reflexes are no where near enough to intercept the "Grasp-to-Warp" motion. Then again Nagato has poor reflexes to begin with hence why it had to be supported by the Rin'negan's linked vision as noted by Kabuto.​

Then I'm not sure why you'd claim that he combines it with Kamui, when in reality he'd just be using Hiding Like a Mole until he is in a position where he can grab Itachi's leg, then he'd warp him. If he does that, then Itachi easily evades him as using Hiding like a Mole to travel results in him being easily detected by Sharingan and/or by Nagato's sensing capabilities. All that is left is for Itachi to jump away or to retaliate with Susanoo's arm or something when Obito shows himself.

I suggest you read that again.

1. Minato feels Obito's presence.
2. Minato swings his Kunai.
3. Slips through Obito's body and Obito puts his hand up in the process.
4. Minato's hand phases through Obito's hand and then Obito becomes tangible and grabs the hand that has basically been tossed into his own.

Obito never had to rely on his own speed to catch Minato. He relied on the fact that Minato had zero intel on Kamui and that Minato attacked first, thus leaving him unable to evade even if he wanted to. Says nothing about Nagato being unable to react w/ Shinra Tensei. Once again, Obito's movements are Kakashi level in speed.

And where is the evidence for the bold? 99% sure that Kabuto used Rinnegan Linked vision to compensate for Nagato's immobility, not his poor reflexes.

You mean Madara's Eternal Mangekyo is the only Doujutsu that can differentiate between Hashirama's Mokuton-Bunshin (which differ from the regular bunshin). Hebi Sasuke differentiated between Itachi's Bunshin's with a 3 tomoe Sharingan. @ He wouldn't be finished from both sides because he can warp the Bunshin to a different location within Kamui's realm as he did for Fu and Torune. Recalling that Obito warped Fu and Torune and later on warped Sasuke as well as Karin however the prior two were not in the same location as the latter two. Thus, even with intelligence as a factor Obito can negate such an occurrence by warping the bunshin to a different location. ​

-Hebi Sasuke has never differentiated between clones. Nor has any other Sasuke above the level of 3-Tomoe Sharingan, so I'm not sure how you can even claim Hebi Sasuke can tell which one is a fake and which one is an original.

-He can't. When he warps something, they appear in a position relative to where Obito warped them in the real world. If he could separate them like that, then he wouldn't have gotten countered by Naruto and Kakashi in canon. There isn't even any proof that Torune and Fu were sent to different locations. If they were in different locations, it's because they were both warped at different positions.

Though it's Manga intel, so this strategy is useless.

Orochimaru explained its the same principle as Jugo supplying Sasuke with Natural Energy at the hideout via physical contact: Jugo placed his arm on Sasuke and absorbed Natural energy and it then transferred to Sasuke. Similarly Jugo absorbed Natural Energy and transferred it to the Susano'o which he was in physical contact with. Naruto has already showcased the ability (Which the Kyuubi elaborated upon) of transferring his chakra in order to adapt it to another person's specific chakra type however in this case it is Sage Chakra or Natural Energy and no adaptation is necessary as Sasuke's Susano'o will readily absorb it. ​

Hmmm, I'll agree. This makes sense, but I doubt that a senjutsu boost to his Susanoo is enough to let them beat Nagato. The only thing that changes is that Preta Path can't be used to recklessly absorb it, but he can still destroy it with Chou Shinra Tensei.

 

[Waltz]

​

One is Sasuke's chakra. The other is Itachi's chakra, Kagutsuchi controls the flames made by Sasuke, not the flames made by Itachi.

They're the same flames. I'll give you a similar case: Kakashi creates Kamui using his Chakra as does Obito using his Chakra. Yet when Kakashi made an attempt to warp the Mazou's head Obito cancelled it with his own without physically being at the Mazou's head because it's the identical Mangekyo jutsu just being used by different individuals. If Sasuke can fully manipulate and change the chakra form of the flames then he can prohibit Itachi from igniting him with Amaterasu.

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No. That doesn't apply here, because knowing not only wasn't the main reason he was caught the first time, never experiencing Sharingan Genjutsu doesn't mean that he doesn't know how it's cast. Knowing how it's cast was one of the reasons why Nagato was able to stop the elder toads the second time around. Your point doesn't hold unless you think Nagato doesn't know how Sharingan Genjutsu is cast.

Ok then. We'll say he gets close. Preta Path absorbs a V2 cloak whole in a matter of seconds. He'd take Sasuke's Susanoo's arm and repel him w/ Shinra Tensei even faster than that.

Point holds KG because even if he know's how it's being cast, Nagato's entire fighting style revolves around keeping a visual with the opponent and Sasuke would gain this Intel from Obito and eradicate his Summons's line of sight thus forcing him to make eye contact which is why your strategy (the bold) would never work because Preta's orb only extends roughly 6 inches away from the users body and according to the Databook Genjutsu's area of effect begins being applicable at 0-5m (short range) which is 0-16ft or 192 inches away from the target. So Nagato would be caught. ​

Then I'm not sure why you'd claim that he combines it with Kamui, when in reality he'd just be using Hiding Like a Mole until he is in a position where he can grab Itachi's leg, then he'd warp him. If he does that, then Itachi easily evades him as using Hiding like a Mole to travel results in him being easily detected by Sharingan and/or by Nagato's sensing capabilities. All that is left is for Itachi to jump away or to retaliate with Susanoo's arm or something when Obito shows himself.

I suggest you read that again.

1. Minato feels Obito's presence.
2. Minato swings his Kunai.
3. Slips through Obito's body and Obito puts his hand up in the process.
4. Minato's hand phases through Obito's hand and then Obito becomes tangible and grabs the hand that has basically been tossed into his own.

Obito never had to rely on his own speed to catch Minato. He relied on the fact that Minato had zero intel on Kamui and that Minato attacked first, thus leaving him unable to evade even if he wanted to. Says nothing about Nagato being unable to react w/ Shinra Tensei. Once again, Obito's movements are Kakashi level in speed.

And where is the evidence for the bold? 99% sure that Kabuto used Rinnegan Linked vision to compensate for Nagato's immobility, not his poor reflexes.

The strategy was: Obito will use Kamui through the ground until he's directly beneath Itachi (and Susano'o, if present) in unawares to him and then become's tangible simultaneously utilizing the Doton: Moguragakure no Jutsu and grabs his leg as a means to warp him away before he's able to respond.


The mere fact that Minato allowed Obito to speak while grasping his arm shows that he had a window to retaliate and Obito attests to this as well by saying that he could have warped him sooner however the warping was so sudden Namikaze had no choice but to use Hirashin because he couldn't evade it by any other means.

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Again, Nagato's reflexes cannot compensate for that unless you're saying that they are as fast as Hirashin or faster than Onooki's Jinton when it's released as Obito was able to warp, become tangible and then warp Sasuke away before Onooki's Jinton could have reached Sasuke's standing point.

@ Red: Reflexes depend on mobility as if you're unable to produce fluid movements; that is, to maneuver about freely and easily then your response to stimuli will be poor.

mobility
məʊˈbɪləti/Submit
noun
the ability to move or be moved freely and easily.

___


reflex
ˈriːflɛks/Submit
noun
plural noun: reflexes
1.
an action that is performed without conscious thought as a response to a stimulus.​

-Hebi Sasuke has never differentiated between clones. Nor has any other Sasuke above the level of 3-Tomoe Sharingan, so I'm not sure how you can even claim Hebi Sasuke can tell which one is a fake and which one is an original.

-He can't. When he warps something, they appear in a position relative to where Obito warped them in the real world. If he could separate them like that, then he wouldn't have gotten countered by Naruto and Kakashi in canon. There isn't even any proof that Torune and Fu were sent to different locations. If they were in different locations, it's because they were both warped at different positions.

Though it's Manga intel, so this strategy is useless.

Hebi Sasuke knew this was a Clone and not the original Itachi [

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] Madara can differentiate between bunshin with his EMS so the two are directly related yet states that Sasuke has the sames eyes as his and even attributed Sasuke being able to see limbo because of the strong similarity between their eyes.

Obito warped Fu and Torune during Sasuke's Stand off with Danzo and never brought them back until he asked Kabuto to expand upon the workings of the Edo Tensei Jutsu many chapters later. Prior to this he warped Sasuke and Karin to what you could call "his common location" however the only things that were there were the endless pillars of Kamui's realm, Sasuke and Karin. It obviously means they (Fu and Torune) were in different locations to Sasuke and Karin.

Obito has intel on all of Itachi's Jutsu as black Zetsu would have relayed it to him after Itachi's standoff with Sasuke and he also has intel on Nagato's abilities as well so even if the Intel is Manga then the strategy is still possible. ​

Hmmm, I'll agree. This makes sense, but I doubt that a senjutsu boost to his Susanoo is enough to let them beat Nagato. The only thing that changes is that Preta Path can't be used to recklessly absorb it, but he can still destroy it with Chou Shinra Tensei.

Well...was thinking that a boosted Sasuke and 2-3 KCM clones would occupy Itachi until Obito and the original Naruto defeat Nagato together by some strategical means. Obito could help Naruto evade CST with Kamui. ​

 

[KidGamer65]

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They're the same flames. I'll give you a similar case: Kakashi creates Kamui using his Chakra as does Obito using his Chakra. Yet when Kakashi made an attempt to warp the Mazou's head Obito cancelled it with his own without physically being at the Mazou's head because it's the identical Mangekyo jutsu just being used by different individuals. If Sasuke can fully manipulate and change the chakra form of the flames then he can prohibit Itachi from igniting him with Amaterasu.

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They use the same eye and their dimension is the same. That along with the fact that we aren't sure how he did that, I'm pretty sure you can't use that as an example to prove your point. The link between Kagutsuchi and Sasuke's flames would naturally be his chakra, so he shouldn't be able to control the flames of others.

Point holds KG because even if he know's how it's being cast, Nagato's entire fighting style revolves around keeping a visual with the opponent and Sasuke would gain this Intel from Obito and eradicate his Summons's line of sight thus forcing him to make eye contact which is why your strategy (the bold) would never work because Preta's orb only extends roughly 6 inches away from the users body and according to the Databook Genjutsu's area of effect begins being applicable at 0-5m (short range) which is 0-16ft or 192 inches away from the target. So Nagato would be caught. ​

Already agreed that the summons get taken out with relative ease, but Preta's orb being 6 in. away from the body doesn't mean that Sasuke will be that exact distance. There's still the distance between the Susanoo arm that's being absorbed, and then there's the fact that it is between both of them, acting as a slight visual barrier. Databook saying that Sharingan Genjutsu can be initiated at a 0-5m range doesn't mean that eye contact can be easily forced at that range, especially when Nagato doesn't need to directly look at Sasuke during the absorption.

1. He knows Sasuke can't do anything from here.
2. He can just focus on Susanoo, which is the only threat.

The strategy was: Obito will use Kamui through the ground until he's directly beneath Itachi (and Susano'o, if present) in unawares to him and then become's tangible simultaneously utilizing the Doton: Moguragakure no Jutsu and grabs his leg as a means to warp him away before he's able to respond.
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Not possible. When Obito goes intangible, he's moving his body to the other dimension. There's no way he can sink into the ground, go beneath Itachi and then become tangible AND use a jutsu at the same exact time when he isn't even in the dimension. If he's in the ground, he can't use jutsu, thus he'd have to come out and then use Hiding like a Mole.

The mere fact that Minato allowed Obito to speak while grasping his arm shows that he had a window to retaliate and Obito attests to this as well by saying that he could have warped him sooner however the warping was so sudden Namikaze had no choice but to use Hirashin because he couldn't evade it by any other means.

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Again, Nagato's reflexes cannot compensate for that unless you're saying that they are as fast as Hirashin or faster than Onooki's Jinton when it's released as Obito was able to warp, become tangible and then warp Sasuke away before Onooki's Jinton could have reached Sasuke's standing point.

Yeah, a window to retaliate after he had already been caught. That isn't relevant to my point as I've said that Nagato will react before being touched, not after. The only reason Obito touched him is because Minato tried to attack, not having intel on his attack.

@ Red: Reflexes depend on mobility as if you're unable to produce fluid movements; that is, to maneuver about freely and easily then your response to stimuli will be poor.

Physical reflexes? Yes. But in this situation only movement that has to do with his legs. Reacting to Kamui w/ ST has nothing to do with physical reaction speed, only mental reaction speed, and even if it did, Nagato's legs are the issue, thus if moving involves them, then his reaction will be slower. Anything else is fine.

Hebi Sasuke knew this was a Clone and not the original Itachi [

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] Madara can differentiate between bunshin with his EMS so the two are directly related yet states that Sasuke has the sames eyes as his and even attributed Sasuke being able to see limbo because of the strong similarity between their eyes.
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You're grasping. Sasuke was grappling with that Itachi with no reaction until after the second Itachi showed himself. That's when he realized that Itachi made a clone, when he saw 2 Itachis on the field. He never said that Sasuke has the same eyes as him, he said that Sasuke's eyes would be a good fit, and that they have the same straight commas, but that's precognition related and irrelevant.

And no. He clearly said that Sasuke can see Limbo because of the Rinnegan.

I can grab multiple instances in the Manga where Sasuke fought Naruto and wasn't able to tell his clones apart from the original. Only Madara has shown that ability, let alone Obito, who has no relation to Madara like Sasuke does.

Obito warped Fu and Torune during Sasuke's Stand off with Danzo and never brought them back until he asked Kabuto to expand upon the workings of the Edo Tensei Jutsu many chapters later. Prior to this he warped Sasuke and Karin to what you could call "his common location" however the only things that were there were the endless pillars of Kamui's realm, Sasuke and Karin. It obviously means they (Fu and Torune) were in different locations to Sasuke and Karin.

Because Sasuke and Karin were warped in a different location from Torune and Fu. Already mentioned how the position the warped person ends up in is relative to where they are in the Kamui dimension.

Obito has intel on all of Itachi's Jutsu as black Zetsu would have relayed it to him after Itachi's standoff with Sasuke and he also has intel on Nagato's abilities as well so even if the Intel is Manga then the strategy is still possible.

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I'm saying that my attack from both dimensions strategy is useless.

Well...was thinking that a boosted Sasuke and 2-3 KCM clones would occupy Itachi until Obito and the original Naruto defeat Nagato together by some strategical means. Obito could help Naruto evade CST with Kamui. ​

You're forgetting about Kakashi, who is on Nagato's side. Kakashi's presence pretty much shuts Obito down 100%, and Naruto on his own stands no chance of taking out Nagato. If Obito tried to help Naruto evade CST by intangibility, then Kakashi would kill Obito from the other side. Not to mention if close enough, it's pretty much instantaneous like the other uses of Shinra Tensei. Obito wouldn't be able to predict it, thus would get hit along with Naruto.​

 

[Unorthodox]

Waltz always debating Kidgamer

 

[Waltz]

They use the same eye and their dimension is the same. That along with the fact that we aren't sure how he did that, I'm pretty sure you can't use that as an example to prove your point. The link between Kagutsuchi and Sasuke's flames would naturally be his chakra, so he shouldn't be able to control the flames of others.





Already agreed that the summons get taken out with relative ease, but Preta's orb being 6 in. away from the body doesn't mean that Sasuke will be that exact distance. There's still the distance between the Susanoo arm that's being absorbed, and then there's the fact that it is between both of them, acting as a slight visual barrier. Databook saying that Sharingan Genjutsu can be initiated at a 0-5m range doesn't mean that eye contact can be easily forced at that range, especially when Nagato doesn't need to directly look at Sasuke during the absorption.

1. He knows Sasuke can't do anything from here.
2. He can just focus on Susanoo, which is the only threat.



Not possible. When Obito goes intangible, he's moving his body to the other dimension. There's no way he can sink into the ground, go beneath Itachi and then become tangible AND use a jutsu at the same exact time when he isn't even in the dimension. If he's in the ground, he can't use jutsu, thus he'd have to come out and then use Hiding like a Mole.



Yeah, a window to retaliate after he had already been caught. That isn't relevant to my point as I've said that Nagato will react before being touched, not after. The only reason Obito touched him is because Minato tried to attack, not having intel on his attack.



Physical reflexes? Yes. But in this situation only movement that has to do with his legs. Reacting to Kamui w/ ST has nothing to do with physical reaction speed, only mental reaction speed, and even if it did, Nagato's legs are the issue, thus if moving involves them, then his reaction will be slower. Anything else is fine.




You're grasping. Sasuke was grappling with that Itachi with no reaction until after the second Itachi showed himself. That's when he realized that Itachi made a clone, when he saw 2 Itachis on the field. He never said that Sasuke has the same eyes as him, he said that Sasuke's eyes would be a good fit, and that they have the same straight commas, but that's precognition related and irrelevant.

And no. He clearly said that Sasuke can see Limbo because of the Rinnegan.

I can grab multiple instances in the Manga where Sasuke fought Naruto and wasn't able to tell his clones apart from the original. Only Madara has shown that ability, let alone Obito, who has no relation to Madara like Sasuke does.



Because Sasuke and Karin were warped in a different location from Torune and Fu. Already mentioned how the position the warped person ends up in is relative to where they are in the Kamui dimension.



I'm saying that my attack from both dimensions strategy is useless.



You're forgetting about Kakashi, who is on Nagato's side. Kakashi's presence pretty much shuts Obito down 100%, and Naruto on his own stands no chance of taking out Nagato. If Obito tried to help Naruto evade CST by intangibility, then Kakashi would kill Obito from the other side. Not to mention if close enough, it's pretty much instantaneous like the other uses of Shinra Tensei. Obito wouldn't be able to predict it, thus would get hit along with Naruto.

Well, they're not the same eye, one is Obito's left eye and the other is his right eye. It's pretty clear that he reversed the warp of Kakashi's Kamui from long range by negating the effects of it which denotes an ability. Shi explained that Kagatsuchi grants him the ability to manipulate the Chakra form of the flames or in other words the final form of Amaterasu's flames which has nothing to do with who's chakra created it. However if you don't believe, I guess we can agree to disagree.

There's a solid reason as to why Nagato will be making eye contact during the absorption and that is: He doesn't have visual contingency----a second pair of eyes. If Nagato doesn't look at Sasuke then he would not be able to evade anything else for example if Sasuke throws his Katana at Nagato's Skull then he would not see it approaching or the action taking place. There is always a toll to be payed by not keeping visual with an opponent especially when your fighting still is revolved around that.

Meh, it should possible because by definition the Moguragakure no Jutsu simply channels Chakra from the user's body. So the moment Obito becomes tangible and his body returns the NV's dimension his body will be channeling chakra in the earth, turning it into fine sand. It would be similar to this:

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Regarding Minato: Nagato can't react to it because he has no knowledge of Kamui, he'll suffer the same fate as Minato however in this case Obito will not be dishing out an opportunity for him to intercept. For Nagato to react with Shinra Tensei he would have to identify the target visually which may include turning his head or torso then proceed to execute the Jutsu so it does require physical some physical reflex as the only way for Nagato to know what or who is making contact with his body is by having a visual.

Regarding Sasuke: Not just Madara but Orochimaru was also able----by some means---to differentiate between bunshin. Indeed he saw two Itachi's but your way says he had no way of differentiating between the two but since Itachi created the bunshin during their kunai clash, the one he was facing could have been the clone but he knew it wasn't. Madara kept mentioning Sasuke's Doujutsu because it's pattern was very similar to his own; that is, the same Doujutsu which enabled him differentiate between both Mokuton and Kage bunshin and he did indeed state that Sasuke's Doujutsu was as his own.

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Agreed with you on the useless strategy; perhaps I thought you were re-enforcing it. Agree to everything else, Kakashi (war arc) makes the team overpowered and would ruin any strategy surrounding Obito.
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[Varrah]

Why do you think that Kagutsuchi can control Itachi's Amaterasu, Waltz?​