Sennin of Logic
Sannin of the Scrolls 📜
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I've noticed that the opinion of many of the base members has shifted to Madara being stronger than Naruto and Sasuke (for all versions), so I'd like to reestablish Naruto and Sasuke's abilities in comparison to Madara and challenge commonly used arguments used for Madara. Bear in mind, I'm not talking about them as a team, but an individual level. I will not be using Hokage Naruto and Sasuke at that point in time, as it's unknown whether or not they've completely degraded by the time of the film, or if they got stronger. In terms of chakra, they're definitely stronger, but their battle judgement is in question from Gaiden. So, I'll be using the Last versions of Naruto and Sasuke, as they clearly improved and had great feats for them, and they clearly weren't degraded in battle judgement at that time. I will not be using Kurama mode+SM for the Last Naruto, but what his RSM had to have been like at that point in time.
First, I'd like to address the arguments usually made for Madara
Naruto
Sasuke
Hope the thread has reaffirmed or convince you that, at best, Madara can only beat Naruto or Sasuke at extreme high-diff, or would loose to them.
First, I'd like to address the arguments usually made for Madara
Madara's fans know that his feats do not match up with Naruto and Sasuke's, and that due to being cut short, Madara has not had the chance for better feats (operating under the assumption that he has better). Because of this, they often use portrayal and the objectiveness of Madara's abilities as a method of arguing.
Madara's fans will often say that he is portrayed to be stronger than Naruto and Sasuke and use if for the later versions. This is an invalid argument for them. Yes, Madara was clearly portrayed to be stronger than RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke individually.
However, that was Naruto and Sasuke learning to use their abilities, meaning it does not apply for them after the Kaguya arc. Additionally, by portrayal, early RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke together are stronger than Madara, meaning if their abilities are twice as strong as they were previously, then they most certainly can beat Madara.
The other common argument is that Madara is that Madara is equal to Hagoromo in power, making him twice as strong as Naruto and Sasuke.
However, this is obviously not the case. In the Last, Haruma was shown to have TSBs (and as such RSM) without the tenseigan.
Haruma was not a Juubi Jin, so it's entirely plausible that Hagoromo had RSM pre Juubi as well, and the juubi on top of that. For JJ Madara, who didn't have RSM before the Juubi, to be equal to Hagoromo is impossible. Also, this statement also included Kaguya, which means using this as evidence that Madara=Hagoromo is faulty. This most likely is referring to IT. That, and his chakra is entirely likely to only be slightly stronger than Naruto or Sasuke's if at all.
Even if this was due to Madara still not being fully recovered (which Madara dismisses), you still have to take into account that an injured Madara was overpowered by RSM Naruto, who didn't fully activate it. He has no excuse against Sasuke. Although he had his back turned (meaning it's not tuly a blitz), Madara had a head start, and for Sasuke to catch up like that means that his physical attributes (and as such, the amount that his chakra enhances him) is similar to Madara's. It's very unlikely that there's a significant chakra difference between RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke at that time.
Sometimes, they'll try to say that Madara can make a biju susanoo, but remember, biju susanoo has his own rikkudo chakra, and basically turns the bijus into a juubi inside of it. Madara already uses the juubi for his 6 paths senjutsu, so for him to make a biju susanoo, he'd have to extract it out of himself into the susanoo, which would depower his own susanoo. Basically, since Madara already uses the bijus for one thing, he can't have both uses.
Of course, there's also the argument that Madara was holding back.
The scan most used for that view is this.
The comparison to raindrops is what most Madara fans use to say that Madara was toying with Naruto and Sasuke, to imply that he could do much more than this. However, he was most likely using it as an analogy since he was dropping a bunch of CT as if they were rain. Additionally, there's another statement that would imply he had every intention of finishing Naruto and Sasuke.
"We have played enough" This seems to imply that Madara had every intention to finish them, leaving little room to argue that Madara was still toying with them. Even if the CT demonstration was not his limit, to say that his limit is much stronger is simply fans inventing his limits. As it stands, there's not much to imply that he wasn't trying to kill them, so this is most likely close to his limit, if it isn't, although he could most certainly not divide his CTs and make a huge one instead of a barrage.
Madara's fans will often say that he is portrayed to be stronger than Naruto and Sasuke and use if for the later versions. This is an invalid argument for them. Yes, Madara was clearly portrayed to be stronger than RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke individually.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
However, that was Naruto and Sasuke learning to use their abilities, meaning it does not apply for them after the Kaguya arc. Additionally, by portrayal, early RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke together are stronger than Madara, meaning if their abilities are twice as strong as they were previously, then they most certainly can beat Madara.
The other common argument is that Madara is that Madara is equal to Hagoromo in power, making him twice as strong as Naruto and Sasuke.
You must be registered for see images
However, this is obviously not the case. In the Last, Haruma was shown to have TSBs (and as such RSM) without the tenseigan.
You must be registered for see images
Haruma was not a Juubi Jin, so it's entirely plausible that Hagoromo had RSM pre Juubi as well, and the juubi on top of that. For JJ Madara, who didn't have RSM before the Juubi, to be equal to Hagoromo is impossible. Also, this statement also included Kaguya, which means using this as evidence that Madara=Hagoromo is faulty. This most likely is referring to IT. That, and his chakra is entirely likely to only be slightly stronger than Naruto or Sasuke's if at all.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Even if this was due to Madara still not being fully recovered (which Madara dismisses), you still have to take into account that an injured Madara was overpowered by RSM Naruto, who didn't fully activate it. He has no excuse against Sasuke. Although he had his back turned (meaning it's not tuly a blitz), Madara had a head start, and for Sasuke to catch up like that means that his physical attributes (and as such, the amount that his chakra enhances him) is similar to Madara's. It's very unlikely that there's a significant chakra difference between RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke at that time.
Sometimes, they'll try to say that Madara can make a biju susanoo, but remember, biju susanoo has his own rikkudo chakra, and basically turns the bijus into a juubi inside of it. Madara already uses the juubi for his 6 paths senjutsu, so for him to make a biju susanoo, he'd have to extract it out of himself into the susanoo, which would depower his own susanoo. Basically, since Madara already uses the bijus for one thing, he can't have both uses.
Of course, there's also the argument that Madara was holding back.
The scan most used for that view is this.
You must be registered for see images
The comparison to raindrops is what most Madara fans use to say that Madara was toying with Naruto and Sasuke, to imply that he could do much more than this. However, he was most likely using it as an analogy since he was dropping a bunch of CT as if they were rain. Additionally, there's another statement that would imply he had every intention of finishing Naruto and Sasuke.
You must be registered for see images
"We have played enough" This seems to imply that Madara had every intention to finish them, leaving little room to argue that Madara was still toying with them. Even if the CT demonstration was not his limit, to say that his limit is much stronger is simply fans inventing his limits. As it stands, there's not much to imply that he wasn't trying to kill them, so this is most likely close to his limit, if it isn't, although he could most certainly not divide his CTs and make a huge one instead of a barrage.
Naruto
Naruto during the Last clearly has full Kurama. This means that, at the very least, the power of his chakra is doubled (or has twice the reserves). This is, of course, disregarding further mastery over his chakra. One thing I'd like to mention is that the physical attributes of Naruto's Kurama Avatar are clearly equal to Sasuke's PS, which cleaved an CT in half with a single strike.
So obviously, through phsyical attributes alone, the CT fragments could be destroyed let alone through TBB firepower.
What's more is that Naruto's potency clearly got a huge buff in the Last as evident with his fight with Toneri. With Kurama mode and senjutsu running simultaneously (with possibly a little bit of Rikkudo chakra as he was flying), Naruto's performance was far superior to his previous Kurama mode performance.
His planetary ransengan equaled silver wheel: rebirth explosion, which causes a huge tornado that blasted through the moon's surface. That's quite the feat. Additionally, by focusing his chakra, he could go through golden wheel: rebirth explosion, which cut the moon in half. So, imagine how much more powerful his RSM is than it was during his fight with Sasuke at VOTE 2.
And then there's Ashura Avatar. Given the fact that both Naruto and Sasuke were both injured by their jutsu clash, even if you factor in Naruto's element advantage, it has to be somewhat close to Biju susanoo.
Biju susanoo easily overpowered 4 Kurama Avatars, which is equal to Sasuke's PS, and as such, is at least close to Madara's susanoo.
Now, Ashura Avatar works by overloading one Kurama Avatar with natural energy, and putting it into 3 Kuarama Avatars.
So, not only is Naruto's chakra's potency increased from mastery/both halves of Kuarma, but having both halves doubles the natural energy Naruto would be able to absorb. So, in other words, the Last Naruto's Ashura Avatar is likely more than twice as strong as it was at VOTE 2. Because of this, even if Madara's limbos can use PS, and even if Madara has the chakra to support 5 PS simultaneously, he would be easily overpowered by the Last Naruto's Ashura Avatar given the huge difference from Kurama Avatar and the huge buff it would have gotten. Madara's PS is not a threat.
The only threat Madara poses is his rinnegan. Now, as we all know, Deva Path is the strongest rinnegan ability. Madara's biggest CT is, or is close to all his CT fragements combined.
Now, most would assume that his capabilities with almighty push and universal pull are similarly powerful. However, this is not the case. If we use Pain as a reference, the only time the area of effect of almighty push equals CT, is when he uses it to near-lethal levels that restricts Deva Path for at least 5 minutes.
Any other almighty push usage is drastically weaker than this. So the average Deva path usage won't be a problem for Naruto, leaving only the large almighty push as a threat, but given how powerful Ashrua Avatar is, it won't be taken down by it even if it's damaged, and that will restrict Deva path for 5 minutes. Then it'll be easy for Naruto to kill Madara from that point forward.
The other threat is IT, but this is only a factor when the moon's at their location, meaning the usage as an ability is conditional at best. Also, Naruto has learned to fly, meaning Naruto's fully capable of chasing Madara, and blasting through his attempt to prevent him from catching up.
Now to deal with the elephant in the room. Immortality.
First off, others have been called immortal, but had their limits.
Additionally, even if Madara's "immortal" what's he going to do if Naruto makes an attack that obliterates every cell? How would he come back from that? If Naruto completely obliterates Madara, he's not coming back.
Also, there's also the fact that he has tailed beast ransenshuriken, which can make his bijus go out of control. After that, Naruto could yank the bijus out of Madara, empowering him, enabling Shukaku's sealing to restrain the depowered Madara, who will not be able to resist.
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So obviously, through phsyical attributes alone, the CT fragments could be destroyed let alone through TBB firepower.
What's more is that Naruto's potency clearly got a huge buff in the Last as evident with his fight with Toneri. With Kurama mode and senjutsu running simultaneously (with possibly a little bit of Rikkudo chakra as he was flying), Naruto's performance was far superior to his previous Kurama mode performance.
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His planetary ransengan equaled silver wheel: rebirth explosion, which causes a huge tornado that blasted through the moon's surface. That's quite the feat. Additionally, by focusing his chakra, he could go through golden wheel: rebirth explosion, which cut the moon in half. So, imagine how much more powerful his RSM is than it was during his fight with Sasuke at VOTE 2.
And then there's Ashura Avatar. Given the fact that both Naruto and Sasuke were both injured by their jutsu clash, even if you factor in Naruto's element advantage, it has to be somewhat close to Biju susanoo.
Biju susanoo easily overpowered 4 Kurama Avatars, which is equal to Sasuke's PS, and as such, is at least close to Madara's susanoo.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Now, Ashura Avatar works by overloading one Kurama Avatar with natural energy, and putting it into 3 Kuarama Avatars.
You must be registered for see images
So, not only is Naruto's chakra's potency increased from mastery/both halves of Kuarma, but having both halves doubles the natural energy Naruto would be able to absorb. So, in other words, the Last Naruto's Ashura Avatar is likely more than twice as strong as it was at VOTE 2. Because of this, even if Madara's limbos can use PS, and even if Madara has the chakra to support 5 PS simultaneously, he would be easily overpowered by the Last Naruto's Ashura Avatar given the huge difference from Kurama Avatar and the huge buff it would have gotten. Madara's PS is not a threat.
The only threat Madara poses is his rinnegan. Now, as we all know, Deva Path is the strongest rinnegan ability. Madara's biggest CT is, or is close to all his CT fragements combined.
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Now, most would assume that his capabilities with almighty push and universal pull are similarly powerful. However, this is not the case. If we use Pain as a reference, the only time the area of effect of almighty push equals CT, is when he uses it to near-lethal levels that restricts Deva Path for at least 5 minutes.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Any other almighty push usage is drastically weaker than this. So the average Deva path usage won't be a problem for Naruto, leaving only the large almighty push as a threat, but given how powerful Ashrua Avatar is, it won't be taken down by it even if it's damaged, and that will restrict Deva path for 5 minutes. Then it'll be easy for Naruto to kill Madara from that point forward.
The other threat is IT, but this is only a factor when the moon's at their location, meaning the usage as an ability is conditional at best. Also, Naruto has learned to fly, meaning Naruto's fully capable of chasing Madara, and blasting through his attempt to prevent him from catching up.
Now to deal with the elephant in the room. Immortality.
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First off, others have been called immortal, but had their limits.
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Additionally, even if Madara's "immortal" what's he going to do if Naruto makes an attack that obliterates every cell? How would he come back from that? If Naruto completely obliterates Madara, he's not coming back.
Also, there's also the fact that he has tailed beast ransenshuriken, which can make his bijus go out of control. After that, Naruto could yank the bijus out of Madara, empowering him, enabling Shukaku's sealing to restrain the depowered Madara, who will not be able to resist.
Sasuke
It's actually much simpler to debate this with Sasuke. For starters, IT will do nothing, taking away Madara's most dangerous ability. When you get down to it, since both have the rinnegan, it all comes down to the quality of their chakra, and their unique rinnegan abilities.
Pressumably, Sasuke equaled Naruto during the Last, but if we're looking for specific examples of his prowess, there's this.
With a normal chidori, Sasuke destroys a meteor, which is at least mountain-busting level. This is an unprecedented feat when you consider the destructive potential of the rikkudo-level characters when using other simple attacks.
This shows a tremendous difference in basic power that was shown previously, meaning Sasuke's chakra got much, much stronger. As such, that means that Sasuke's susanoo, and rinnegan powers should be significantly stronger than Madara's.
As for limbo, even assuming that Madara's limbos can use PS, and even if they can pose a threat to Sasuke (which is unlikely given the difference in chakra), Sasuke has recently shown shadow clone jutsu. It was always within the rank of the sharingan's copy ability, so Sasuke most likely had this, but never used it out of preference (like Madara). When it comes down to it, if Madara uses clones and PS, so will Sasuke.
As for Madara's immortality, Sasuke could simply weaken Madara, and then follow up with either using preta path to take away Madara's chakra and/or use human path to take out Madara's soul.
Pressumably, Sasuke equaled Naruto during the Last, but if we're looking for specific examples of his prowess, there's this.
You must be registered for see links
With a normal chidori, Sasuke destroys a meteor, which is at least mountain-busting level. This is an unprecedented feat when you consider the destructive potential of the rikkudo-level characters when using other simple attacks.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
This shows a tremendous difference in basic power that was shown previously, meaning Sasuke's chakra got much, much stronger. As such, that means that Sasuke's susanoo, and rinnegan powers should be significantly stronger than Madara's.
As for limbo, even assuming that Madara's limbos can use PS, and even if they can pose a threat to Sasuke (which is unlikely given the difference in chakra), Sasuke has recently shown shadow clone jutsu. It was always within the rank of the sharingan's copy ability, so Sasuke most likely had this, but never used it out of preference (like Madara). When it comes down to it, if Madara uses clones and PS, so will Sasuke.
As for Madara's immortality, Sasuke could simply weaken Madara, and then follow up with either using preta path to take away Madara's chakra and/or use human path to take out Madara's soul.
Hope the thread has reaffirmed or convince you that, at best, Madara can only beat Naruto or Sasuke at extreme high-diff, or would loose to them.
