VOTE Madara vs Gaiden Sasuke (No Sage Power)
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Waltz
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Apex said:
Don't put facts and evidence aside to employ argumentum ad verecundiam; that is to appeal to authority---- because it's fallacious. Kishi was also the one who made this 'most knowledgeable' Character believe that Obito was Madara. I'm not saying that Orochimarus words hold no merit, I am saying, once again------the only time Sasuke was factually stronger than EMS VoTE Madara was upon receiving the Powe-rup from Hagoromo.
You said:
I never sprouted such a statement.
You said:
It does because after Sasuke lost the power-up his Chakra control returned to what is was before: Absolutely nothing compared to EMS Madara. You're asking me to believe your words: that 13 years of Chakra growth made Sasuke as strong as EMS Madara without any sort of supporting evidence. The entire confrontation against shin says othewise.
-> 1) Gaiden Sasuke's reflexes and reaction time were absolutely shit compared to EMS Madara as he showcased when he entered the war.
-> 2) His Kanzentai Susano'o is still inferior.
-> 1) Gaiden Sasuke's reflexes and reaction time were absolutely shit compared to EMS Madara as he showcased when he entered the war.
-> 2) His Kanzentai Susano'o is still inferior.
You said:
This is a baseless claim (you provided no canonical evidence) founded upon your baseless belief (you provided no canonical evidence which even suggests to support): that 13 years of Chakra growth made Sasuke strong enough to rival EMS Madara for extended periods of time without suffering attenuation of strength or effectiveness through the sustained battle.
You said:
This is what you're saying:
"Because Sasuke (with power-up) was able to fight and keep up stamina wise with Naruto + (With power up) throughout the entire battle if you remove the power up: Sasuke (without powerup) = Naruto (without powerup) Stamina wise."
Which is false because Sasuke still had to take a sturdy amount of Chakra from Naruto and still lost the battle.
"Because Sasuke (with power-up) was able to fight and keep up stamina wise with Naruto + (With power up) throughout the entire battle if you remove the power up: Sasuke (without powerup) = Naruto (without powerup) Stamina wise."
Which is false because Sasuke still had to take a sturdy amount of Chakra from Naruto and still lost the battle.
You said:
Since you keep on making these baseless claims and you think your assumption to be the word of God:
How much does Sasuke's Chakra grow per year, Kishimoto?
How much does Sasuke's Chakra grow per year, Kishimoto?
You said:
Bold is an assumption and for the final time Sasuke is never touching Madara's Susano'o with preta's orb . Do you honestly think Madara is going to allow Sasuke within 3-4 inches of his Kanzentai Susano'o without slicing his his body in two? Are you internally troubled or suffering from something?
You said:
Oh my God...you're phenomenally stupid.
Bro, Madara's Kanzentai is many times larger than the Kyuubi. The arm of the small Mokujin can hold the kyuubi like a kitten and that Mokujin is phenomenally dwarfed by 1 of Shin-Shuusenju's arms.
Bro, Madara's Kanzentai is many times larger than the Kyuubi. The arm of the small Mokujin can hold the kyuubi like a kitten and that Mokujin is phenomenally dwarfed by 1 of Shin-Shuusenju's arms.
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You said:
Where in the Manga or databook is this stated that any Jutsu a Sharingan user sees (not copies) can be replicated?
Stopped reading there.
Eh...please don't spoil Madara's name with your subpar reasoning. Madara copied Hashirama's jutsu for a purpose, he was planning to implant Hashirama's Genetic material as a means to gain access to his powers and to bring both Senju and Uchiha together in order to unlock a high power: Rin'negan.
You stated that he has the Jutsu. Again: Show me where Sasuke copied the Kagebunshin Jutsu?
Stopped reading there.
Eh...please don't spoil Madara's name with your subpar reasoning. Madara copied Hashirama's jutsu for a purpose, he was planning to implant Hashirama's Genetic material as a means to gain access to his powers and to bring both Senju and Uchiha together in order to unlock a high power: Rin'negan.
You stated that he has the Jutsu. Again: Show me where Sasuke copied the Kagebunshin Jutsu?
You said:
The real question of the day is: Did he do this with or without the Rikudo power up????
You're a funny guy.
You're a funny guy.
You said:
He'd only have to do it once, after this he makes it closes his eyes. Before you respond to this saying Sasuke Genjutsu works without eye contact read directly above this post-segment.
You said:
He read the Naka Shrine.
You said:
Already told you that Madara's Kanzentai will keep him out of Amenotijikara's range so that Strategy will never work. He doesn't need to activate his EMS because it's already activated. Learn to read, OP states they both start with Kanzentai (Madara's being much larger).
KidGamer65
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It's crazy how you have the audacity to say Rinnegan is underrated when you also claim that Sasuke simply absorbs PS. Almost like debating against those silly Nagato supporters.
And I still see Rikudo Sasuke feats being given to Non rikudo chakra Sasuke.
Apêx1
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Lmfao. Did you actually leave out some of my arguments thinking I wouldn't notice? Address them (the part in which I proved Sasuke has Kage Bunshins especially) or don't try debating with me at all.
Unorthodox
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Once again its gaiden sasuke just downscaled meaning he gets all his rinnegan abilities so you keep saying this means nothing
Waltz
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My bad, if you wish.
Apex said:
@ red:Then your Kagebunshin argument is valid. Catch is: Using his Sharingan: Madara copies the Kagebunshin-no-Jutsu from Sasuke and still takes the victory for reasons already stated----in context of your point----applying these reasons to each of Sasuke's Kagebunshin as they face each Kagebunshin from Madara. The use of Kagebunshin was never going to provide Sasuke a source of victory.
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Apêx1
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Laughable use of appeal to authority. My appeal to authority must be true because in my case, everything the authority suggests becomes canon. A fallacious appeal to authority is when I say I know an english teacher who says armor is correct, rather then armour; so you are wrong. In my case, if the authority (Kishi) says Naruto is stronger then Madara, then that automcatically becomes a fact as the authority dictates everything within his manga; which in turn becomes a fact. If he says Sasuke will surpass Madara through the dialogue of the most knowledgeable person in the manga, then it becomes a fact. It's not up to discussion, the authority dictates what he wants his reader's to believe. You wanting to believe it is a baseless, unwarranted discussion is you appealing to ignorance. EMS Sasuke never became more powerful then EMS Madara canonically. However, based on canon, Sasuke would've surpassed Madara in his prime. Assume 30 isn't in his prime, we can still suggest he is either superior or equal. However, he would be superior with his Tomoe'd Rinnegan in every case.
I am telling you Sasuke tied with Naruto in his VOTE2 fight, which means if you take away both of their equal power-ups, they are back to equal. Since Hashirama claimed the amount of chakra Naruto distributed (not possessed) was comparable to his, then the amount Naruto possesses is greater then his. Yet, Sasuke tied with Naruto in VOTE 2, and ended up equally matched in stamina as shown in their base fight.
1. If you want to take Gaiden literally then I'll have you know Kishi stated Shin is above Kaguya level. Knowing that, it would effectively mean Sasuke more then doubled his power as he went from <1/2 of Kaguya to >Kaguya. Downscale and Sasuke becomes twice as strong 13 years later. Sasuke is now 2x EMS Sasuke at War Arc which is far above EMS Madara since non-2x powered EMS Sasuke=BM Naruto<BSM Naruto.
2. Equals actually, and it won't matter when it gets absorbed by Preta.
I gave you Orochimaru's statement which is all the evidence I needed. He would surpass Madara. Without the Rinnegan. Add the Rinnegan and it's a larger surpass. And attenuation will only happen after his reserves are actually low enough and he can no longer sustain what he could priorly. But with Preta I don't see that being a problem. With the Kyuubi's summoning that definitely won't be a problem.
Um, no. Sasuke took chakra from Naruto at this point [
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]. At that particular point they were shown as equals in stamina since they were both on their knees, so him taking the chakra put him above Naruto. And do note Kyuubi says it's on a little bit. Only enough for him to use Chidori to counter Naruto's Rasengan. Just like Hashirama could use an extra Mokuton Bunshin when Madara couldn't even keep his Sharingan active anymore. So the difference is negligible, but still there. And he lost the battle? Physically or mentally? Because physically they tied with both of their arms gone, while in Hashirama's fight he killed Madara and went home to huff and puff the birthday candles.[
How much his chakra grows is irrelevant. Downscale from VOTE2 and you will realise Naruto and Sasuke were on par chakra wise, and Naruto= or >Hashirama, who is >Madara. Assume spiritual and physical energy development by slight amounts every year and Sasuke is already above Madara. How much is irrelevant.
It's a Kage Bunshin. The Kage Bunshin's which I proved to be a possibility while you deliberately tried to leave it out of my argument (concession accepted). The clone just needs to shunshin to the PS and absorb. The clone can Ameno to Madara's PS and absorb, something which Madara won't even realise. At which point the clone can absorb a Bijuu v2 worth of chakra amount from Madara. That alone would revert the PS to a v2-v3. All it would take at that point is for the real Sasuke to use his PS and absolutely smash that inferior version of Susano. And once again, what exactly can Madara do about Sasuke going behind the PS's leg? The sword sure as hell isn't reaching the clone, and Sasuke would use that point to smash Madara's PS in its face (which does affect Madara even if it doesn't do damage). So once again, as long as the clone gets close to Madara's PS, it will absorb a good amount of chakra. Not to mention that 1. Madara won't use his sword to kill a clone who he doesn't think is capable of doing anything. 2. Won't know Sasuke can absorb the PS since he lacks intel on Rinnegan's abilities. 3. It will only take a moment for the clone to absorb a tremendous amount of chakra.
How ironic lmfao. That Mokujin was used by SM Hashirama [
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]. SM Hashirama's Mokujin has shown to be comparable in size to Madara's Perfect Susano [
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]. You truly are an idiot. Mokujin was a lot smaller then the Kyuubi. So many times larger has to be the most idiotic thing I have heard in a while. You've already conceded Sasuke having Kage Bunshin's (after trying to leave it out), no reason in continuing this argument.
Since when does Rikudo's chakra give you the ability to use jutsu that you cannot in Base (unless the chakra amount is too significant for you to use it in Base)? Having Rikudo chakra does not make the difference between Genjutsu that requires eye contact and Genjutsu that doesn't. It enhances the Genjutsu's power, but it does not grant you the ability to use it in a different way. All his abilities get enhanced because he possesses more powerful chakra. It's not some kind of magic where it gives him different choices to initiate each jutsu. It's attributed to his Tomoe'd Rinnegan, nothing else unless you give me valid reasons to suggest otherwise.
1. Lol at making it close its eyes. Already told you it doesn't need eye contact. Furthermore, nothing is stopping Sasuke from Ameno swapping with Madara and inputting chakra into the Kyuubi to stop the Genjutsu. All he needs to do after that is absorb and absorb. His PS will be far above Madara's PS. Kyuubi cloak at War Arc made his v3=BM Naruto. It jumped 2 stages of Susano. His Kyuubi chakra enhanced PS will shit.
2. Naka Shrine warns of the moon eye plan, suggests how to achieve a body like the Sage's, tells of the Mangekyo's secrets and informs on how to get the Rinnegan. Nowhere was it ever implied that it tells you of the Rinnegan's abilities. Bring me a scan of this EVER being implied or concede this wild assumption.
3. For a Madara fan you sure know little about how the Sharingan works. The EMS does not always see chakra flow. The EMS only has pre-cognition unless it's activated. Unless you believe the user only ever sees chakra and never sees his opponent's actual body, in which case I will bring you scans from Sharingan user's perspectives in which they are not perceiving chakra, but human bodies. It being activated does not mean it being activated further in order to see chakra along the lines of this [
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]. And once again, please explain to me how Madara's PS will keep Madara outside of Ameno's range. Unless you are suggesting the diamond in which Madara lays is far too large for Ameno's range, there's literally no argument here.
Waltz
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Apex said:
Your definition of a appeal to authority is wrong.
Common Fallacies said:
You're arguing that Orochimaru is the most knowledgeable character and due to Kishimoto being the author Orochimaru's statement is coming from the author himself and are therefore true ---- as proof that Sasuke arguably near his prime is as strong as or stronger than EMS Madara but your argument fails badly for two reasons: firstly It fails because this most knowledgeable character whose speech and thought is authored by Kishimoto at a point believed Tobi to be Madara and has had other erroneous assumptions throughout the course of the Manga. A similar case is Hagoromo, who was most knowledgeable of Hashirama, Madara and the then current events of the Manga knew nothing of Black zetsu or his actions. Due to this flaw, Orochimaru's word (what you call the Authors word) that "Sasuke will surpass Madara" can only be taken as fact where logic and evidences provide sustenance for that argument. Keeping the coherence architectonic: The logic you've provided on this takes two phases an assumption and another supporting assumption. The initial being your assumption that Sasuke's Chakra developed enough over the past 13 years to rival or Surpass EMS Madara---but it's assumption since you do not know how Sasuke's chakra grows annually nor do you know of any negatively contributing factors which may have dwarfed his Chakra growth during those 13 years such as illness or lack of combat. Your second assumption to support the initial assumption is this:
You said:
The battle was Rikudo Sasuke vs Rikudo Naruto but it's clear that their own chakra was being used up as well because what they showcased in VoTE-2 after losing the power-up is no where near what they they showcased before gaining the power-up.
Ground rule: Sasuke before the power-up = Sasuke after the power-up Chakra wise
Going by actual evidence: Putting the power-up aside: Pitting what Sasuke showcased in the war before complaining and begging Naruto for Chakra (absolutely nothing compared to what Madara did at VoTE) against what Naruto did in the war before running low on chakra shows that Naruto (pre-powerup) is the stronger of the two and that Sasuke was only able to keep up due to the power-up from Hagoromo.
You said:
You expected me not to take him literally? Read the title of the thread. That's Kishimoto's statement but you're once again appealing to authority because Kishimoto himself cannot prove this to be true from the Manga because Kaguya would stomp shin 100/10 times, every minute of the hour, every hour of the day, every day of the week, every week of the month, every month of the year, every year of Shin's life.
You said:
Sasuke's Kanzentai didn't grow 1 inch in the past 13 years nor do we have any feats Post War arc to justify it's power is comparable. I already refuted the strike'd.
You said:
Erm...I just told you Madara will copy the Kage-bunshin Jutsu from Sasuke using his Sharingan and create an equal number of clones and that my argument goes for each clone. There's no need to make a branch of arguments.
You said:
The head of Madara's Kanzentai alone is bigger than the Kyuubi's entire torso
Phenomenally stupid does apply :xD:
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Phenomenally stupid does apply :xD:
You said:
Where was this ever stated or implied (putting your conjecture aside)?
You said:
The shin's could look directly ahead at Gaiden Sasuke's Kanzentai and it could fit in that cave [
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] Madara's Susano'o is the height of a mountain [
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-
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]. For the fifth time, He'll be outside of Amenotejikara's radius. You said:
It also speaks of Hagoromo creating with Banbutsu Sozo (rin'negan Jutus) it also Says that he created the tailed beast and how he did it (Rin'negan Jutsu), it speaks of him locking the Gedou away with Chibaku tensei (Rin'negan Jutsu) it also speaks of Hagoromo splitting the Jubi's Chakra (Rin'negan Jutsu) it also speaks of if Light (Yoton/Yang/Senju) and Shadow (Inton/Yin/Uchiha) are united it will give rise to perfection----which was what inspired Madara to seek Hashirama's genetic material in order to gain the Rin'negan. Should I go on?
You said:
@ Bold: Apex, when you assume you only make an ass out of yourself. Provide me scans of the Eternal Mangekyo being canonically referenced or subject to these assumptions. It's a Sharingan; Actually it's an Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan; it can see Chakra flow and Chakra colour and nothing you stated discredits Madara seeing Chakra being absorbed out of a chakra entity with his EMS. That is all that is needed: The ability.
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Waltz
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I'll just state this: Each clone Sasuke creates Madara creates a clone to combat it. Sasuke isn't Absorbing Perfect Susano'o even if he gets within close proximity with Preta because any segment of Susano'o can be made ethereal at the users will. When he fails, Madara slices him in two.
Mr Major English
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Sasuke has this in the bag mid difference. The employment of masterful, nimble usage of Kirin will be the end of Kurama and Madara.
If you disagree - you're not smart, like I am.
If you disagree - you're not smart, like I am.
Apêx1
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Nope. My definition is the definition you are using. The only difference is that you don't realise the difference between the authority that is referred to in the fallacy's definition and the authority that Kishi stands for. Kishi is the absolute authority. By the fallacy's logic using the Databook, which is the authority's word, as the basis of your argument is committing fallacy. But that's not the case because the word of the author/authority is canon. It's quite simple, at least, for anyone with subpar intelligence and above.
I would like you to post the scan of Orochimaru thinking Tobi was Madara? Put it in bold and underlined so that you don't forget, and don't give me one where Tobi tells him he is Madara, that doesn't count since that would be all Orochimaru has to go on. On the other hand, it clearly seemed to be common knowledge to Kabuto that Tobi wasn't Madara [
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]. Here Obito once again praises Orochimaru's knowledge on pretty much everything since he knew about his Zetsu's [
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]. Please show me more of these erroneous assumptions. And here's another translation of what Orochimaru states. This one is *********** so it might even be more accurate. [
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] He said he is certain here, and if you analyse the mangapanda translation you will notice he says his instinct allows him to "realise", in which it means he is certain as well. So if anything it's not as much an "assumption" as it is a studied hypothesis. Please bring me some cases of his hypothesis having been wrong, because I am pretty sure his hypothesis on things which he couldn't even decipher were accurate [
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] when he researched. That is the difference random assumptions on who Tobi is (or anything that he was wrong on without research) and educated hypothesis based on many years of research. So yes, Orochimaru is definitely a sufficiently trustworthy source. Your point being what? Rikudo chakra obviously makes them more powerful, when did I, or anyone even deny this lmfao? But take away the Rikudo chakra from both and they are back to what they would be before. Take equal amounts of power from both and you'd say they are still equals. This is the same case here, it's really that simple. Downscaling is a common method of dictating power.
Don't know what you are even on about. Naruto used up the Rikudo chakra and his own chakra just like Sasuke used up his Rikudo chakra and his own chakra. Take away the Rikudo chakra from both and it back to square one because the Rikudo chakra they received was equal. My god. Therefor Hagromo's power-up is irrelevant in a stamina discussion.
If Kishimoto states that Jiraiya is superior to Kisame then that is the way it goes. If Kishimoto states Orochimaru is superior to SM Jiraiya then that is the way it goes. Whether you want to disagree with the writer of the manga is irrelevant to me as whatever he states=canon. The only time the author's word no longer matters is if the author's word is rectified. Otherwise his statement will always be a fact.
Sasuke's PS after Hagromo's power-up was a 1000 times stronger then Madara's yet was smaller in size. So that comparison goes right out of the window since size is irrelevant. And no, you did not refute Preta at all.
Madara has already used Kage Bunshin's canonically. Stop calling yourself a Madara supporter smh. And Sasuke's clone would stop Madara's clone terribly. Not only can it use Rinnegan Genjutsu to simply make Madara's clone irrelevant, it can also simply Bansho Tenin>Preta and absorb its chakra. So Sasuke has already absorbed a large portion of Madara's chakra then and there. Thank you Madara, you are far too kind. Other options include Ameno>1 shot poof. Shinra Tensei>Poof. Madara's clone, on the other hand, fails to do anything.
Most accurate comparison of SM Mokuryu and PS is here [
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]. But the SM Mokuryu is still smaller then the Kyuubi in the initial scan you linked. So the Kyuubi is more then half the size of Madara's PS. So your claim of PS being "many times the size of PS" goes unwarranted.The burden of proof is on you. I said it's possible and you said the Rikudo chakra allows him to do so. You are the one who needs to prove why the Rikudo chakra gives him the ability to do abilities that he would be incapable of doing without (the rikudo chakra).
1. Madara's Susano is not the height of a mountain based on the scans you gave me. In the case you didn't know, the further an object is the smaller it will appear. The mountains looked larger then Madara's Susano while being a vast distance away.
2. Holy shit. I never said Sasuke will Ameno Madara within his Diamond while they both PS were standing. I said he will do it after he uses Chou Shinra Tensei to put Madara's Perfect Susano on its back. At that point, Sasuke's PS will jump atop of Madara's PS (near its face) and Sasuke will Ameno Madara into his Chidori. It's quite simple.
-Creation of all things is not a Rinnegan technique, it is a Yin-Yang technique that uses his Sharingan's Izanagi [
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].-It's an advanced Izanagi tech, not a Rinnegan tech.
-Hagromo's Chibaku Tensei is not a Rinnegan technique based on the DB4, but a Yin-Yang technique. More so, the Gedo Mazo is not mentioned based on Madara being the one to name it [
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]. If it was named, Madara wouldn't need to name it.-You said the bold twice. It's the same thing.
-Light and Shadow are not directly relevant to the Rinnegan.
All in all a totally fail paragraph which proved nothing, and failed to give me any reason to believe Madara has intel on any of the Rinnegan's techniques, or the 6 paths techniques.
I didn't only assume. I have given you more then solid reasons to prove my points. And again, I showed you Sasuke's Sharingan needing to activate in order for him to see chakra. Here 2T is shown the need to activate to see chakra [
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] [
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]. Your claim that the Sharingan always sees chakra is retarded. If that was the case every Sharingan user would only ever see chakra flow, they wouldn't be seeing people nor would the be seeing pre-cognition like this [
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] (since those images have no chakra), but only chakra flow. Both of us know that makes no sense Waltz. Not that it will matter. It only takes a second of chakra absorption for Sasuke to have enough chakra to shit all over Madara. So again, Madara won't know what's happening in time. Thus Sasuke will be more then capable of absorbing enough Kyuubi chakra to shit all over Madara.1. Madara's clones cannot compete in Base to Sasuke's 1 clone because he possesses the Rinnegan and a superior Genjutsu. They all get shat on with one Shinta Tensei/1 genjutsu/using Enton to spank them.
2. Bring me proof of any part of Susano ever having become ethereal smh. Not to mention, it would still be a manifestation of the user's chakra, and thus prone to absorption, :lol.
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TRE MERCER
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These threads do nothing but start alot of BS.
Waltz
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Apex said:
No. Authority is authority; do not try to misconstrue the constructs of the fallacy by inventing a term called "Absolute authority". The words of authority are not only Databook statements but also actual words spoken from the mouth and this is so because the Author can lie, add to statement, contradict him/herself or give false information while Manga hard-copies cannot. First you tried to establish that Orochimaru can never make a wrong hypothesis because he is (according to you) the most knowledgeable Character and intertwined that with Masashi being the author as a means to say that the Statement came directly from him, when it didn't ---it came from the Character: Orochimaru. You then appealed to that statement made in the context of your reasoning, and appealing to the position of Kishimoto's authority to dismiss the evidence I've provided that Gaiden Sasuke is not as strong as EMS Madara. Apex authorities can come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, ect. and express it through both writing and speech.
You said:
No such scan exists but the evidence towards that is there which I'll post in my next post-segment. All along you've been claiming that his statements and belief's come directly from Kishimoto now you're suddenly claiming "That's all the info he had to go on". It doesn't apply.
You said:
True but theres a couple of things. Kabuto continued Orochimaru's work and could have only confirmed the hypothesis that Tobi wasn't Madara when he gained access to Madara's corpse however that doesn't say that Orochimaru always knew Tobi was Obito Uchiha nor does it mean that Orochimaru did not think Obito to be Madara at any point. Danzo who knew of Tobi during the Uchiha Massacre [
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] also worked along very closely with Orochimaru thought Tobi to be Madara. You said:
Wrongfully assuming Sasuke was psychologically the same [
Assuming he could have taken Itachi and as a contingency Sasuke but failed because he underestimated the Sharingan [
Assuming he could have Summoned Namikaze but failed [
Assuming he could have defeated Hiruzen but failed.
Discarding his initial resolve on what he assumed to be just after realizing there was something better.
I am not discrediting his intellect and knowledge but I am saying there have been points where he has been wrong, partially true or failed at accomplishing goals due to having incomplete evidence or underestimating situations.
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]Assuming he could have taken Itachi and as a contingency Sasuke but failed because he underestimated the Sharingan [
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]Assuming he could have Summoned Namikaze but failed [
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]Assuming he could have defeated Hiruzen but failed.
Discarding his initial resolve on what he assumed to be just after realizing there was something better.
I am not discrediting his intellect and knowledge but I am saying there have been points where he has been wrong, partially true or failed at accomplishing goals due to having incomplete evidence or underestimating situations.
You said:
Again I am not discrediting his trustworthiness, accurate hypothesis's nor am I saying that his statement that "Sasuke will surpass Madara" is false. I am saying that based on logic and evidences Orochimaru was right, Sasuke did surpass Madara but only when he received the powerup from Hagoromo.
You said:
Let me get you clear on this: Are you really saying that Pre-powerup Naruto (That's BSM) = Pre-Powerup Sasuke?
You said:
I agree, that they would be back to what they were before. Now that we've made some ground work on that I'll ask you this: Do you agree that in terms of Chakra control that what Sasuke pre-powerup displayed in the War before needing Chakra is a far cry from what Madara did against Hashirama at VoTE?
@ Bold: Apex, the powerup from Hagoromo obviously increased their stamina as without it----on their---- they would have never been able to sustain the prolonged physical effort displayed from that point until the end of VoTE-2. Chakra is created when two other forms of energy, known collectively as one's "stamina", are moulded together and since Hagoromo's gift phenomenally increased their chakra it would increase their Stamina as well.
@ Bold: Apex, the powerup from Hagoromo obviously increased their stamina as without it----on their---- they would have never been able to sustain the prolonged physical effort displayed from that point until the end of VoTE-2. Chakra is created when two other forms of energy, known collectively as one's "stamina", are moulded together and since Hagoromo's gift phenomenally increased their chakra it would increase their Stamina as well.
You said:
I'll beat it in some more. That's fallacious because you're using the words of the "expert" as the bases of the argument instead of using the logic or evidence that factually supports the said argument. Again Kishimoto can lie, make the wrong judgments through error, be biased, spout dishonesty, or fall prey to group-think.
You said:
None of that means Gaiden Sasuke's Susano'o is as strong as EMS Madara's.
You said:
Calm down on the stupidity and learn to read. VoTE Madara never used Kage-bunshins and if you're referring to Edo Madara: He didn't use Kage-bunshin, he used Mokuton-Bunshin which requires the KKG: Mokuton which VoTE-EMS Madara never had access to.
You said:
What proof do you have that Gaiden Sasuke's Genjutsu can effortlessly overpower EMS Madara's just because he now has a Rin'negan? Also, all of Madara's clones have his Susano'o so Bansho tennin will result in Sasuke's clones receiving a sword swipe or the Clones simply stake themselves to the ground using Susano'o's Katana.
You said:
Ameno - out of Range. (Would work if the Op's Stipulations were different)
Shinra Tensei - Unstabilized Perfect Susano'o Tanks.
Without any physical connection Madara freely manipulates a portion of his Susano'o [
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]. Madara can temporarily impair the vison of Sasuke's clones (All at once or individually) with an amplified Katon [
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] and simultaneously throw 4 Susano'o Katana's circular wise to intercept them while they are distracted. When Sasuke's clone decides to stop the Katon they are taken down by the Swords which they couldn't see. You said:
No they are different Sizes: 1 roughly the same size as the Kyuubi and the other is vastly bigger than the Kyuubi. I'll type this in English: The Kyuubi cannot be half the Size of Madara's Kanzentai when it's upper torso (Chest to head area) is practically the size of the whole Kyuubi.
You said:
Sure. The Rikudo power up gave them new abilities. Therefore what ever Sasuke showcased while possessing the power-up that was not in his arsenal prior---is subsequent to that power up. Only what we've seen him done so far after the power up can be called: Abilites that are now his own because he is able to perform them without the power-up. The burden of proof is then on you.
You said:
A sword swipe performed at arms length horizontally sliced two mountains almost at the top. Since Madara's Susano'o is taller than arms length then it must be roughly the Size of those Mountains.
You said:
Why are you still regurgitating this nonsense? For the 2nd time: Madara's Kanzentai is many times larger than the Kyuubi. The arm of the small Mokujin can hold the kyuubi like a kitten and that Mokujin is phenomenally dwarfed by 1 of Shin-Shuusenju's arms.
Madara's Kanzetai withstood hundreds of punches point blank from Shin-Shuusenju and it wasn't damage to the the point that Madara was affected by the punches: Chou-Shinra Tensei: Isn't. Doing. Shit.
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Madara's Kanzetai withstood hundreds of punches point blank from Shin-Shuusenju and it wasn't damage to the the point that Madara was affected by the punches: Chou-Shinra Tensei: Isn't. Doing. Shit.
You said:
- But Hagoromo never had the Sharingan ?¿?¿?¿?¿
- But Chibaku Tensei is require's the Rin'negan?¿?¿?¿?¿
- light and shadow: But Madara said it could apply to anything then went on to say it has another interpretation [
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->
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] and then went on to say that he did every thing to combine the Uchiha and Senju abilities [
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]- But Black Zetsu also calls it the Gedou Mazou [
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] ?¿?¿?¿?¿
You said:
Because nothing of the Rin'negan or an of it's Jutsu are written on the Naka Shrine? Sure.
You said:
You're comparing the 2T sharingan to the EMS; a far higher level of Doujutsu? I said provide me proof of the Eternal Mangekyo still being subject to these things.
You said:
I didn't make such a claim. I said it has the ability to do so and once Madara possess the ability then he would be able to see Chakra being absorbed from a Chakra entity using his Doujutsu.
You said:
Madara's speed feats compared to Gaiden Sasuke's reflexes are enough to slice his throat without him even realizing. ...Lol. The only thing Sasuke's clones have over Madara's in Base in Ameno which isn't happening because they won't be in base.
You said:
Sasuke makes Susano'o ethereal to allow Zetsu to pass through it's defense [
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] just as he made it ethereal for Kakashi , Naruto and Sakura to phase though here [
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]. Also preta shouldn't be absorbing it because when ethereal it isn't tangible being pure Inton energy similarly to Gengetsu's mirage.
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Apêx1
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You are wrong. Authority can mean a scientist. If a scientist states something wrong, appealing to authority implies you using the wrong statement that scientist made as your only basis for the claim. But the scientist is not the one who decides nature; what one would call 'god'. His word does not hold such value. 'God', on the other hand, makes everything he says happen. That is how Kishimoto is in regards to his manga, a god. Everything he says becomes truth. Kishi is not your 'authority' and I don't even know why this is being debated. It's clear as day that this is Kishi's manga and everything he wants his reader's to believe, is up to him. You not wanting to believe what Kishi says because it's an appeal to authority us you being an idiot.
As I thought. Your debating style focuses a lot on working on your opponent's ignorance. Guess you can't rely on your own debating skills as they aren't enough, and instead throw bluffs and leave parts of their arguments out in hopes they won't notice. Laughable.
Danzo working with Orochimaru does not mean he has all of Orochimaru's intel. Kabuto being the one with the corpse does not mean Orochimaru did not know of its existence given he's studied Madara "for many years" an knew of Hashirama's DNA's location too. So your claim that he thought Tobi was Madara goes unsubstantiated.
And this is based on research? Nope.
Once again based on no research.
Read your scan again. Hiruzen says he stopped it, meaning he was the reason it didn't work.
Based on no research once again. He can't possibly know if he can win a 1v1 by creating a hypothesis smh. Dat logic
Which is completely irrelevant lmfao.
Good for you. And I am waiting on you to show me one of his hypothesis being wrong. And a substantiated one like Sasuke's, were he's literally spent years on it. Meanwhile I'll be sippin on this tea.
Which is completely irrelevant once again. Orochimaru was suggesting EMS Sasuke would surpass EMS Madara through normal progression as implied. He says he knows Sasuke will still develop. How you could possibly still be trying to tell me his assumption had anything to do with the Rikudo power-up is beyond me.
Um, I clearly said BM Naruto=BM Sasuke<BSM Naruto. Downscaling brings you to BM Naruto, not BSM. Do I need to explain this to you too now?
No, I don't. I don't see how you can judge Sasuke's chakra control from what he's shown in the War. What you can quantifiably judge it by is VOTE2, in which Naruto=Hashirama chakra wise, and Naruto's chakra was drained at the same time as Sasuke's was. Meaning Sasuke made up for the chakra gap with chakra control, as did Madara against Hashirama. So they are around equals. Add in 13 years and Sasuke is superior.
Which is obvious. How this somehow counters my post is beyond me once again. The length of a battle is not the quantification of two people's chakra's. If you take away the power-ups then the fight would only last that long if they used such chakra consuming techniques in quick succession. But it seems to me that you are doubting Naruto prior to the power-up to be an equal to Hashirama chakra wise. And I am being generous when I say they are equals, since Hashirama was only referring to the chakra Naruto was handing out rather then Naruto's chakra reserves.
The words of the god are absolute. Deal with it, this is getting ridiculous. Kishimoto does not lie, he does not make wrong judgements through 'error' unless hyperbolising. Any bias he has applies to the canonical knowledge which we possess. And again, no reason for Kishi to spout dishonesty, literally one of the stupidest things I have heard (unless you are referring to hyperboles or rectified statements, in which case they are not comparable to this as it was not, and will not be rectified).
Didn't say it did. Don't take things out of context, you suggested size was the determining factor for Susano growth, and I disproved it. Learn to concede.
Ok I'll take the L here. Madara didn't use Kage Bunshin's.
As Itachi stated, you need the same eye to counter Genjutsu. 3T cannot counter MS's Genjutsu, but MS counters 3T. Rinnegan being an evolution works in the same way. Rinnegan counters the EMS's Genjutsu, but the Rinnegan, as the Databook states, is immune to all Genjutsu. Further proven by Infinite Tsukiyomi, in which only a Rinnegan could counter it as suggested by Zetsu. And it's doubtable clones can use Susano when the original is already using PS but I won't argue against it since that will lead to another debate. Anyways, if Sasuke uses BT then Madara's Ribcage will reach Sasuke and Sasuke only needs to create the Preta Orb and absorb it. Any swipes with his sword are countered by Sasuke's Raiton enhanced sword which would cut through Madara's sword cleanly. Furthermore, there's no way the clones will no when BT is happening, and if they stick their sword into the ground then Sasuke blitzes to them and absorbs their Susano with Preta. It's that simple tbh. Once Sasuke's clone is released all the chakra he's absorbed goes back to Sasuke (while Madara loses a large amount of chakra), so it's a win win situation even if he doesn't absorb PS.
I am clearly still talking about clones here. This is not being done by the real Sasuke, but his clones. These are definitely viable methods to one shot Madara's clones.
Nice strategy. Sasuke uses Preta and absorbs the 4 Susano swords along with the Juubi sized Katon. Thanks for the chakra Waltz.
Whether you want to believe Madara's PS grew tremendously or not is irrelevant to me. I have you the actual scans of how large SM Mokuryu is compared to PS compared to the Kyuubi. So it's up to interpretation at this point, since both can be true.
Which new abilities apart from the ones which were granted with the modes (not the added powers like TSB, 6 paths mode, etc.)? So no, my point stands and the burden of proof is on you. You changed the focus of the argument to fit your proposition. You suggested that Rikudo chakra gives access to more abilities. I suggested it does not because, just like the Kyuubi chakra, you don't receive new abilities; but enhanced ones. Rikudo chakra is the same as the Kyuubi's chakra, but it grants an even greater power-up. The Rinnegan and the 6 paths mode were added power-ups. They do not come as a part of stronger chakra. When Sasuke put all the Bijuu into Genjutsu Hagromo was surprised, meaning he did not grant him such an ability, but rather Sasuke's Tomoe'd Rinnegan had such a capability.
Fair enough.
You can choose to take your interpretation of its size, I will take the one I showed you previously. But what I find amusing is you continuously ignoring Sasuke receiving the Kyuubi's chakra through Ameno>Preta and one shotting with his more powerful PS.
Please. Quote. Me. Saying. CST. Damages. PS. One. Bit. Do it. Or wait.. I never said it did lmfao. I said it gets pushed over, and that will happen given it's standing on two feet. It's easily knocked off its feat if something with enough force can push it off its feat. So once again, CST pushes PS on is back without damaging it. Its sole purpose is to push it on its back. Is this really THAT hard to comprehend?
1. Hagromo had Izanagi as stated by Obito. Izanagi is an MS technique as stated by Madara. So Hagromo could likely change through the Dojutsu as can Madara. Further proof to do this is the tablet Hagromo left behind which possessed information on all of the Mangekyo's secrets.
2. But it's still not a Rinnegan technique as denoted by the Databook IV. There's a difference between 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei (One Hagromo used/Naruto and Sasuke used) and Rinnegan Chibaku Tensei. So it does not qualify as an explanation of the 6 paths of the Rinnegan.
3. Which once again gives 0 input on the Rinnegan's 6 paths abilities.
4. Who has been around Madara for a long time.
Once again, bring me one direct reference of any 6 paths ability. That's right, you can't do that, so your point is moot as it isn't sufficient to prove Madara knows about the Rinnegan's 6 paths abilities.
I showed you MS Sharingan needing such.
@bold Then my point stands.
Preta Path shits on them all doe.
Preta still should be capable of absorbing it though. Ethereal isn't tangible but you are the one who claimed that it was ethereal. As long as it's chakra then it can be absorbed by Preta Path. And do note, Madara doesn't know about Preta Path for the first second. He also is on top of his PS in the diamond, so he isn't looking down to see what's happening. Once he realises he's losing chakra it'll already be too late since his PS will revert to v2-v3 and the fight would be over then and there. Also, assuming 'ethereal' does counter it, Sasuke just needs to send a clone to each leg. If both legs go 'ethereal' then the PS collapses without a footing and Sasuke needs to push it for it to lose balance. And this is assuming the CST hasn't just been used followed by PS jumping atop of it and Sasuke using Ameno.
King Of Pop
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Even though not in battle, Ems madara did use kage bunshin
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Waltz
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Apex said:
Alright. If you're really anxious to believe Konohamaru is stronger than Kaguya because Kishimoto say's so; then we'll have to agree to disagree.
Apex said:
My claim has substance because no one knew Tobi was Obito
Uchiha. Orochimaru was combining Uchiha and Senju DNA on a test subject named Danzo---could be Madara inspired---but nevertheless true. Saying that they (Danzo and Orochimaru) would have never had any sort of conversation surrounding the matter or shared the same beliefs seems farfetched given their close acquaintance During the Massacre when Tobi first appeared. There isn't any information to say Orochimaru possessed the corpse for many years or even knew of it's location since Kabuto was the one to make modifications to it and singlehandedly sought out all the other corpses.
Uchiha. Orochimaru was combining Uchiha and Senju DNA on a test subject named Danzo---could be Madara inspired---but nevertheless true. Saying that they (Danzo and Orochimaru) would have never had any sort of conversation surrounding the matter or shared the same beliefs seems farfetched given their close acquaintance During the Massacre when Tobi first appeared. There isn't any information to say Orochimaru possessed the corpse for many years or even knew of it's location since Kabuto was the one to make modifications to it and singlehandedly sought out all the other corpses.
Apex said:
I was providing instances where Orochimaru made erroneous assumptions (not where his research hypothesis's were proven incorrect) as you requested.
Apex said:
Hmm..but why should I waste my posts to trash your points for a 6th time? How am I to prove this to a guy who would be idiotic enough to believe Konohamaru is stronger than Kaguya because Kishimoto say's so?
Apex said:
Look what we have here. He now avoids my question and begins spewing statements from a misinformed Itachi who thought Tobi was Madara and got his information from the Naka shrine that Black Zetsu edited for the sole purpose of baiting (the bold ^) the Uchiha to seeking a more powerful Doujutsu. Just like he read and believed the crap that Black Zetsu wrote that you need the Mangekyo Sharingan to control the Kyuubi when both Madara and Obito did so with the 3 tomoe. Again, stop applying 2 tomoe and 3 tomoe Sharingan conditions to the Eternal Mangekyo and provide me evidence besides your assumptions that the said Doujutsu is subject to these conditions. Also nice try with the play on words but being immune to all Genjutsu does not mean it can effortlessly overpower every other Doujutsu.
Apex said:
It's not happening. Already told you the Kagebunshin can stake themselves to the ground with Susano'o's weaponry.
Apex said:
You're hilarious. Now you think Sasuke's Raiton Katana deals a more sturdy blow than that of a Katana of Madara's unstabilized Kanzentai Susano'o.
Apex said:
Depends on the distance and they don't need the whole Susano'o; only it's Katana [
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] so no, they won't be absorbing anything.Apex said:
Madara's clones can access his Perfect Susano'o. Nothing in Sasuke arsenal can breech it's defenses and Sasuke's Kanzentai has no feats or any suggestive statement regarding it's durability so I hope they do well against the Maddy's destruction incarnate sword swipes; that is if it's as sturdy as 3 mountain's. Since Madara creates one clone for each of Sasuke's then your clones are eventually overpowered.
Apex said:
Haha, now we have common sense issues. Apex, the size of the full Kyuubi does not Change; if 1 Mokujin is the Same size of the Kyuubi (which is rougly 3 times smaller than Madara's Kanzentai) and the other Mokujin is the same size of Madara's Kanzentai it means that the Mokujin's are different sizes.
Apex said:
I'mma give you another L. There's no need for me to list abilities. You're completely wrong with the bold because Sasuke received new, not just enhanced abilities from the power-up that he did not have before receiving the powerup. ...Lol Rikudo Chakra is not the same as the Kyuubi's chakra because the Kyuubi's Chakra never gave Sasuke new abilities, fool. Since nothing you just said proved that Sasuke still has the ability... I'll say it again: The Rikudo power up gave them new abilities. Therefore what ever Sasuke showcased while possessing the power-up that was not in his arsenal prior---is subsequent to that power up. Only what we've seen him done so far after the power up can be called: Abilites that are now his own because he is able to perform them without the power-up. The burden of proof is then on you.
Apex said:
Why should I respond to something I already refuted. If you needed me to refute it again, you could have simply asked. Ameno is never working because Sasuke is never getting Madara in radius because the battle starts with both being in their Kanzentai Susano'o and Madara does not need to Summon the Kyuubi at the beginning of the battle. If Sasuke tries to make clones as a means to get Madara in radius via a strategical approach, Madara will copy the Kage-Bunshin Jutsu from Sasuke and create an equal number of clones.
Apex said:
If the impact from those punches did not move the Kyuubi's standing ground; who's entire body was cased in Madara's Kanzentai Chou-Shinra tensei isn't pushing anything down.
Apex said:
1) You're now Assuming Hagoromo had the Mangekyo Sharingan with zero proof besides your personal assumptions.
2) If it's a Rin'negan Chibaku tensei then obviously it's a Rin'negan technique. Your arguments are growing poor.
3) It shits on your previous assertion that Light and Shadow had nothing to do with the Rin'negan. That's it's relevance. Understand?
4) Yeah..you trippin'. Black Zetsu was around long before Madara and more or less dictated his life at a certain point.
ALSO SINCE I KNOW YOU DON'T READ OP SAYS INTEL IS FULL SO MADARA KNOWS ALL OF SASUKES JUTSU.
Lol...
2) If it's a Rin'negan Chibaku tensei then obviously it's a Rin'negan technique. Your arguments are growing poor.
3) It shits on your previous assertion that Light and Shadow had nothing to do with the Rin'negan. That's it's relevance. Understand?
4) Yeah..you trippin'. Black Zetsu was around long before Madara and more or less dictated his life at a certain point.
ALSO SINCE I KNOW YOU DON'T READ OP SAYS INTEL IS FULL SO MADARA KNOWS ALL OF SASUKES JUTSU.
Lol...
Apex said:
You know there's a vast difference between the Mangekyo Sharingan and the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan? Also, did you know that nothing you stated refutes Madara being able to see Chakra being absorbed out of a chakra entity with his Sharingan?
Apex said:
If I didn't make such a statement then your point was irrelevant to the discussion.
Apex said:
Aight, just put in your request now: How many more times do you need me to refute the Preta argument?
Apex said:
Don't play dumb on me bruh; If it was tangible then Sasuke would have crushed Sakura, Kakashi and Naruto and Sasuke would have never been able to let Shiro-Zetsu inside.
Apex said:
Dumb argument. What his neck gonna be so stiff from using his Susano'o Jutsu that he can't look down? Again Sasuke isn't doing anything with clones because Madara will create an equal number of clones to intercept Sasuke's.
Next?
Next?
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