Confederdate Flag Banned: Agree, Disagree or Neutral?

[slimreaper]

Ban the Union flag too then

The only reason the north didn't keep slaves was because northern agriculture was too seasonal so it wasn't an effective business model for them. Not only that, Lincoln was quoted as saying "if I could avoid war and keep slavery, I would". The north greatly benefited from southern slavery, even going so far as to place restrictions on the south selling their products to other countries



It's all good to make money off the work of slave as long as you don't actually over see them. Hypocrites

 

[Sennin of Logic]

I give no craps. One could easily rip apart both sides. Is it a symbol of racism or not? Of course not. That's not exclusively what it means. The Confederacy had slave owners, and that was one of their issues, but one could easily make the argument that it is representative of independence/heritage.

Pro flag side: "That's not what the flag necessarily means."

Me: Well, they did have nasty stuff. We would consider the swastikaa unacceptable, and one could make the case that it represented German revival.

Pro ban side: "The Confederacy had slaves, so it's a symbol of oppression against blacks."

Me: Well, at one point, the United States itself had a lot of industry built on farming, and thus, slaves. Are we to argue that the standard US flag should be banned just because some are offended by its existence?


Really, there's no right or wrong in the discussion. It's all emotion. To which I say, screw it! Have fun fighting each other over a flag of a nation that doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Anbu578]

It should be banned but rednecks will find another way to hurt blacks *cough*, become police officers.

 

[slimreaper]

It should be banned but rednecks will find another way to hurt blacks *cough*, become police officers.

Maybe blacks should become police officers. nope their culture frowns on anyone making something out of themselves.


And don't say that crap of blacks won't get hired. We have specific quotas for that

 

[Sennin of Logic]

It should be banned but rednecks will find another way to hurt blacks *cough*, become police officers.

Well, this by no means comes across as stereotyping.

 

[Robot Boy]

I disagree.

 

[Multiply]

I'm not an American, so I don't really care what they do with that flag, but honestly said by banning that flag you don't solve anything. In fact you might even make things worse.

By banning it you take away any kind of possibility for that flag to change its meaning. Now it automatically will be unified with the meaning of representing racism and it's impossible to reverse it. During the time it wasn't banned however it opened the door of gaining new meanings, like for example the series The Dukes of Hazzard. It has been a long while since I ever saw that series, but as far as I remember that flag wasn't particularly associated with racism and became part of the show, but now I heard they have to remove that flag of all their merchandise...

They pretty much condemned that flag to forever be associated with racism in the southern States, which in a different way can be described as that they have just given American racists a new symbol to gather under. Banning that flag will not remove racism and in fact will only reinforce it. Someone like that shooter in that church is not suddenly going to distance himself from that flag, he will only gain more affinity for it.

So by banning it they're pretty much strengthening the thing they banned it for.

Ridiculous argument. The ability to change its meaning. :lol.

Think of the N-word for example. The N-Word still has not been completely eradicated, and in fact, has garnered a new meaning. The word does not necessarily relate to its old racist nature, however people still view it as such. That's exactly how the flag is.

Your argument for why the flag should not be banned is extremely outweighed by why it should be banned. Especially when you say banning the flag won't remove racism. You're 100% correct. However, it stops people from hiding behind some false sense of subtle racism.

Ban the Union flag too then

The only reason the north didn't keep slaves was because northern agriculture was too seasonal so it wasn't an effective business model for them. Not only that, Lincoln was quoted as saying "if I could avoid war and keep slavery, I would". The north greatly benefited from southern slavery, even going so far as to place restrictions on the south selling their products to other countries



It's all good to make money off the work of slave as long as you don't actually over see them. Hypocrites

But no one uses the union flag tho...

 

[slimreaper]

Ridiculous argument. The ability to change its meaning. :lol.

Think of the N-word for example. The N-Word still has not been completely eradicated, and in fact, has garnered a new meaning. The word does not necessarily relate to its old racist nature, however people still view it as such. That's exactly how the flag is.

Your argument for why the flag should not be banned is extremely outweighed by why it should be banned. Especially when you say banning the flag won't remove racism. You're 100% correct. However, it stops people from hiding behind some false sense of subtle racism.



But no one uses the union flag tho...

1. On the n word context is important. I don't care who says it, if the context is friendly then whoever gets offended is an ignoramous

2. The union flag is just the american flag with less stars.

 

[paratise]

I give no craps. One could easily rip apart both sides. Is it a symbol of racism or not? Of course not. That's not exclusively what it means. The Confederacy had slave owners, and that was one of their issues, but one could easily make the argument that it is representative of independence/heritage.

Pro flag side: "That's not what the flag necessarily means."

Me: Well, they did have nasty stuff. We would consider the swastikaa unacceptable, and one could make the case that it represented German revival.

Pro ban side: "The Confederacy had slaves, so it's a symbol of oppression against blacks."

Me: Well, at one point, the United States itself had a lot of industry built on farming, and thus, slaves. Are we to argue that the standard US flag should be banned just because some are offended by its existence?


Really, there's no right or wrong in the discussion. It's all emotion. To which I say, screw it! Have fun fighting each other over a flag of a nation that doesn't exist anymore.

@bold Swastika (as in nazi symbol) is banned in Germany though. Because cons of it outweigh the pros; because a nation revival is not a passable excuse over slaughter of millions and years of dictatorship. And now the people who use that symbol in Germany are group called neo-nazis who represents similar segregative and genocidal thought nazism did. Because it means something.

Flag obviously represents certain mindset of people.
The 'nation' may be lost but the mind of that nation still exists within some people. And they are overwhelmingly Southern. And this (Missisipi's state flag) is still roaming around while a flag with nazi swastika is not allowed in Germany:

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You are right though, people should stop talking about flag this much. In the end the real racist ideas are in people's minds.

 

[slimreaper]

@bold Swastika (as in nazi symbol) is banned in Germany though. Because cons of it outweigh the pros; because a nation revival is not a passable excuse over slaughter of millions and years of dictatorship. And now the people who use that symbol in Germany are group called neo-nazis who represents similar segregative and genocidal thought nazism did. Because it means something.

Flag obviously represents certain mindset of people.
The 'nation' may be lost but the mind of that nation still exists within some people. And they are overwhelmingly Southern. And this (Missisipi's state flag) is still roaming around while a flag with nazi swastika is not allowed in Germany:

You must be registered for see images

You are right though, people should stop talking about flag this much. In the end the real racist ideas are in people's minds.

freedom of expression is a right?

 

[Aim64C]

Ridiculous argument. The ability to change its meaning. :lol.

The Confederate Flag was the flag of the Confederacy that seceded from the union due to over-reaches of federal authority.

What are they teaching you kids in school, these days?

Think of the N-word for example. The N-Word still has not been completely eradicated, and in fact, has garnered a new meaning. The word does not necessarily relate to its old racist nature, however people still view it as such. That's exactly how the flag is.

So, what you are saying is that we should ban words, now, too?

Your argument for why the flag should not be banned is extremely outweighed by why it should be banned. Especially when you say banning the flag won't remove racism. You're 100% correct. However, it stops people from hiding behind some false sense of subtle racism.

There is something called the First Amendment.

Freedom of Press. Freedom of Speech. The government is to make no law regarding print or speech. IE - it is not constitutional to ban imagery or language.

You'd fit right in with the Nazis, though. Perhaps we should ban black people. That would solve the racism issue, wouldn't it?

Majority rule, and all.

No, we should not ban the confederate flag. Anyone who suggests as such is proposing something that runs against the very foundation of America.

The Confederate flag does not, in the slightest, stand for racism or even slavery. Get out of this country with such nonsense, or prepare to watch the secession happen all over again.

 

[Multiply]

1. On the n word context is important. I don't care who says it, if the context is friendly then whoever gets offended is an ignoramous

2. The union flag is just the american flag with less stars.

1. Wouldn't you argue it's the same for the flag though? As you can see(in a sec, I'm going to edit) Aim64c argues that the flag is merely the flag the confederates used to go to war with. However, he disregards the 100 years after the fact and what the flag obviously stands for; the support of slavery and racism against blacks.

2. The confederate flag is the union flag with less stars and colors rearranged. What are you saying.

The Confederate Flag was the flag of the Confederacy that seceded from the union due to over-reaches of federal authority.

What are they teaching you kids in school, these days?

Yes that's the origin, but what about the following 100 years and what the flag stands for? :lol

So, what you are saying is that we should ban words, now, too?

Didn't say that at all, you misunderstood. I was using it as an example. I don't think the word should be used at all, but everyone has the freedom to say what they want.

I don't care if people fly the flag on their car or on their personal property, but our government should not fly the flag for obvious reasons.

There is something called the First Amendment.

Freedom of Press. Freedom of Speech. The government is to make no law regarding print or speech. IE - it is not constitutional to ban imagery or language.

Read above.

You'd fit right in with the Nazis, though. Perhaps we should ban black people. That would solve the racism issue, wouldn't it?

Majority rule, and all.

:lol who are you even arguing against. My only quarrel is that the government should not fly the flag because of its background. It's like the German government flying the swastika on their government buildings :lol.

No, we should not ban the confederate flag. Anyone who suggests as such is proposing something that runs against the very foundation of America.

Ban it on government buildings and agencies.

The Confederate flag does not, in the slightest, stand for racism or even slavery. Get out of this country with such nonsense, or prepare to watch the secession happen all over again.

Yes it does. It stands in support of those things. That's literally what the flag means. How can you even argue this :lol? Are you this deep in the conservative bubble or are you trolling?

 

[paratise]

freedom of expression is a right?

Is that your arguement? That flag represents lack of freedom.

 

[Aim64C]

Is that your arguement? That flag represents lack of freedom.

It does?

Please, explain.

1. Wouldn't you argue it's the same for the flag though? As you can see(in a sec, I'm going to edit) Aim64c argues that the flag is merely the flag the confederates used to go to war with. However, he disregards the 100 years after the fact and what the flag obviously stands for; the support of slavery and racism against blacks.

Where is your source for this?

Where has the Confederate flag been used to support racism and slavery?

2. The confederate flag is the union flag with less stars and colors rearranged. What are you saying.

And the American Flag is the British flag and the Australian flag, then.

What the hell are you on about?

Yes that's the origin, but what about the following 100 years and what the flag stands for? :lol

What about the following 100 years?

The Confederate flag has stood as a cultural icon of the South and the idea that the State's rights are still important.

Where are you getting that it has meant anything else?

Didn't say that at all, you misunderstood. I was using it as an example. I don't think the word should be used at all, but everyone has the freedom to say what they want.

I don't care if people fly the flag on their car or on their personal property, but our government should not fly the flag for obvious reasons.

Obvious reasons?

What are those? If they are obvious, you should be able to name them.

Why is it that a State cannot incorporate the Confederate Flag into their arrangements? It is a part of their history, and the free expression of the people of that state who chose to have that design as a part of their enduring icon.

Read above.

The First Amendment applies to the Federal Government. It can't ban displays from state governments any more than it can ban displays from individuals.

:lol who are you even arguing against. My only quarrel is that the government should not fly the flag because of its background. It's like the German government flying the swastika on their government buildings :lol.

Support your argument, little lol kid.

What is the background of the confederate flat that places it on par with Nazism?

Even so - what would be the problem with Germany allowing the Swastika to persist in their government and art? The symbol, itself, is very old and harkens back to symbols of the sun. It's also a fact that Nazism was a very powerful part of German history. I'm not saying they should incorporated it - but I'm saying that it shouldn't be something they are banned from doing, either.

Ban it on government buildings and agencies.

Why? The flag has been there for over a hundred years and has caused absolutely no problems.

Yes it does. It stands in support of those things. That's literally what the flag means. How can you even argue this :lol?

You're just stating it as if it is a fact with absolutely no grounds or support.

I'm challenging you to provide some kind of coherent argument that places the Confederate Flag as being in support of the things you say it is.

So far, you have not. You're just harping like a banshee.

Are you this deep in the conservative bubble or are you trolling?

Obviously, someone with a different opinion from you must be either stupid or deliberately acting stupid.

Such arrogance, little banshee.

 

[Caliburn]

Ridiculous argument. The ability to change its meaning. :lol.

Think of the N-word for example. The N-Word still has not been completely eradicated, and in fact, has garnered a new meaning. The word does not necessarily relate to its old racist nature, however people still view it as such. That's exactly how the flag is.

Your argument for why the flag should not be banned is extremely outweighed by why it should be banned. Especially when you say banning the flag won't remove racism. You're 100% correct. However, it stops people from hiding behind some false sense of subtle racism.



But no one uses the union flag tho...

It's not ridiculous, that's simply how it works. People, objects, events...the way how they are perceived by people individually and society as a whole continuously change. Why? Because both people and the society change all the time and thus also the way how they perceive things. That's inevitable. Within the field of studying history there's a separate branch who solely focuses on studying this phenomenon and then mainly in the 19th and 20th century, some of the most well known concepts of this branch are 'Cultural Memory' and 'Lieux de Mémoire', which translates as 'places with memories attached to them', and under 'places' you need to understand pretty much everything, for example flags.

That flag is nothing more than a flag, a bunch of colors mixed together in a square, a piece of cloth. The only meanings it has, are the meanings that people give it to it. The meaning of every person, every object, every event can be changed in theory, this applies as much to that flag as anything else. Of course it's easier said than done when you're trying to do it purposefully, you do not change the meaning of something just like that, normally this is a process that can take years, decades, even centuries and it just happens.

Example I personally never associated that flag with particular racism. I associate it with my Playmobil toys. When I was small I had an entire set of the American civil war where I played a lot with and of course that also includes toys that have that flag. I associate it with a comic book series about the American civil war, but one where the topic of racism is approached in a much more complex manner than just the Southern States being racists and I associate it with the series The Dukes of Hazzard. The latter has to remove that flag from all their merchandise, while that flag was one of its most iconic features. This is my individual perspective and I never particularly associated that flag as being a symbol of racism, this differs from individual to individual and the perspective of a society is a level above that. But by banning the flag, they pretty much condemned it to be eternally associated with racism.

This is what I mean with that by banning it for that reason they pretty much are strengthening that very same reason. You say it has some subtle sense of racism where people hide behind. By banning it, it has become hardcore racism as the chances are reasonably big that people like that shooter are going to 'claim' that flag, which in return only is going to strengthen the view of that flag being a symbol of hardcore racism. It's a vicious cycle, which makes it extremely hard to change the meaning of that flag ever again. So from a situation where that flag originally was already undergoing a metamorphosis, the perspective on that flag had already been changing and had only a limited amount of connection with racism, it now has become a prime symbol of hardcore racism.

If you want to visually represent this, it comes down to that you have just given American racists a new weapon.

 

[sandman20]

Nope, banning this will open the gate for banning all kinds of other stuff slowly, but surely taking away freedom of expression and speech which this is. Hate speech is freedom of speech in America, deal with it.

 

[Multiply]

It does?

Please, explain.

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Where is your source for this?

Where has the Confederate flag been used to support racism and slavery?

I need a source for this? You're trolling...

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And the American Flag is the British flag and the Australian flag, then.

What the hell are you on about?

That's my point :lol.

What about the following 100 years?

The Confederate flag has stood as a cultural icon of the South and the idea that the State's rights are still important.

Where are you getting that it has meant anything else?

Yeah you're definitely trolling.

Obvious reasons?

What are those? If they are obvious, you should be able to name them.

Why is it that a State cannot incorporate the Confederate Flag into their arrangements? It is a part of their history, and the free expression of the people of that state who chose to have that design as a part of their enduring icon.


The First Amendment applies to the Federal Government. It can't ban displays from state governments any more than it can ban displays from individuals.

You must be registered for see images

A negative part of their history. Like I said, it's like the Germans flying the swastika.

Support your argument, little lol kid.

What is the background of the confederate flat that places it on par with Nazism?

Even so - what would be the problem with Germany allowing the Swastika to persist in their government and art? The symbol, itself, is very old and harkens back to symbols of the sun. It's also a fact that Nazism was a very powerful part of German history. I'm not saying they should incorporated it - but I'm saying that it shouldn't be something they are banned from doing, either.

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Not even going to entertain this wall of bullshit :lol.


Why? The flag has been there for over a hundred years and has caused absolutely no problems.

You're just stating it as if it is a fact with absolutely no grounds or support.

I'm challenging you to provide some kind of coherent argument that places the Confederate Flag as being in support of the things you say it is.

So far, you have not. You're just harping like a banshee.

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Obviously, someone with a different opinion from you must be either stupid or deliberately acting stupid.

Such arrogance, little banshee.

You must be registered for see images

 

[Aim64C]

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I fail to see the significance.

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"Among the subjects is Karen Cooper, an African American woman from New York who now lives in Virginia and regularly flies the Confederate flag to protest big government.

"I think it represents freedom -- it represents people who stand up to tyranny, and by my being out there I hope you see this is not racist," she says in the documentary."

You want I should find pictures of where the Democratic Party's symbols appear?

I need a source for this? You're trolling...

Yes, you do need a source for it.

That's my point :lol.

You don't have points.

Yeah you're definitely trolling.

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"In 2000, during his first term in the South Carolina State Senate, Pinckney actually voted in favor of H5028, the May 2000 compromise which placed the flag at its current location."

Since you don't know, Pinckney was the pastor of the church.

You remember, right? The church where the black people were shot. The pastor was a member of the state legislature.

You need to stop trolling, little banshee.

A negative part of their history. Like I said, it's like the Germans flying the swastika.

No, it's not.

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This article dates from before all of this insanity.

"The swastika represents Adolph Hitler’s murder of 6 million Jews and eventually the death of 50 million people. The Confederate flag was the banner of the south in the Civil War, a war fought for the same reason as the American Revolution — taxation without representation.

The South had such small representation in Washington its needs were of little concern to Congress. The South was paying 70 percent of all federal expenditures. (Ref:

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.)

High tax rates caused loss of property to large numbers of generational landowners. This in turn caused the very loss of their livelihood. Abraham Lincoln was asked “Why not let the South go in peace?” Lincoln replied: “I can’t let them go. Who would pay for the government?” (Ref:

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.)

The South was willing to do away with slavery if they could pay a reasonable tax without being bled dry, but that wasn’t an option for the northern lawmakers."

Not even going to entertain this wall of bullshit :lol.

You need to understand, little banshee, that I am trying to spare your life.

A lot of people are going to die within the next couple years, and once the bullets start to fly, we will not have time to discuss these things with you.

The history you are being taught is a lie, young Banshee, and there are people who are willing to sacrifice you as a pawn in their ambitions for power.

The same goes for all other bystanders who happen to read this.

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You should cease your trolling and learn a little bit of history, little Banshee.

 

[Multiply]

I fail to see the significance.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see links

"Among the subjects is Karen Cooper, an African American woman from New York who now lives in Virginia and regularly flies the Confederate flag to protest big government.

"I think it represents freedom -- it represents people who stand up to tyranny, and by my being out there I hope you see this is not racist," she says in the documentary."

You want I should find pictures of where the Democratic Party's symbols appear?



Yes, you do need a source for it.



You don't have points.

You must be registered for see links

"In 2000, during his first term in the South Carolina State Senate, Pinckney actually voted in favor of H5028, the May 2000 compromise which placed the flag at its current location."

Since you don't know, Pinckney was the pastor of the church.

You remember, right? The church where the black people were shot. The pastor was a member of the state legislature.

You need to stop trolling, little banshee.



No, it's not.

You must be registered for see links

This article dates from before all of this insanity.

"The swastika represents Adolph Hitler’s murder of 6 million Jews and eventually the death of 50 million people. The Confederate flag was the banner of the south in the Civil War, a war fought for the same reason as the American Revolution — taxation without representation.

The South had such small representation in Washington its needs were of little concern to Congress. The South was paying 70 percent of all federal expenditures. (Ref:

You must be registered for see links

.)

High tax rates caused loss of property to large numbers of generational landowners. This in turn caused the very loss of their livelihood. Abraham Lincoln was asked “Why not let the South go in peace?” Lincoln replied: “I can’t let them go. Who would pay for the government?” (Ref:

You must be registered for see links

.)

The South was willing to do away with slavery if they could pay a reasonable tax without being bled dry, but that wasn’t an option for the northern lawmakers."



You need to understand, little banshee, that I am trying to spare your life.

A lot of people are going to die within the next couple years, and once the bullets start to fly, we will not have time to discuss these things with you.

The history you are being taught is a lie, young Banshee, and there are people who are willing to sacrifice you as a pawn in their ambitions for power.

The same goes for all other bystanders who happen to read this.

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You must be registered for see images

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You should cease your trolling and learn a little bit of history, little Banshee.

I don't even think you understand what you're trying to argue. The confederate flag without a doubt comes from a place of hate. Of course it can be said that it does not solely represent racism, however it still comes from that place of hate; oddly, just like the swastika.

I don't understand why you're trying to justify this flag. You're disregarding blatant facts because people say it doesn't come from a place of hate when they use it. Which is exactly what black youths say when they say the n-word as a term of brotherly love(or whatever we're calling it these days).

Whatever you're trying to prove here, it isn't working. Just because a man who was shot in a racially motivated shooting voted to put up the flag doesn't take away the meaning of the flag. That just means he was insensitive to it, regardless of his race.

"I think it represents freedom -- it represents people who stand up to tyranny, and by my being out there I hope you see this is not racist,"

This is entirely fine, because look at the preface of the statement. This is her interpretation of the flag. A flag that, as you said earlier, represents the want for 'freedom'. That doesn't mean the flag doesn't come from a place of slavery and racism, it just means it also stands for freedom of sorts.

 

[Karna]

Apple is banning apps on iTunes that uses a Confederate flag and they seem to be doing it right,

Their statement:

“We have removed apps from the App Store that use the Confederate flag in offensive or mean-spirited ways, which is in violation of our guidelines. We are not removing apps that display the Confederate flag for educational or historical uses.”

I once made a thread about why rappers use the n word and I quote the answer that made most sense.

Words have the meaning we give it. It was considered a bad word used negatively, but then people decided to make it positive so now it is. It's no longer a negative word.

Here in place of that word we have the Confederate flag, now granted that it can still be used as a racial slur but every time we hear snoop dog or lil Wayne or some other rapper use it in their song we don't immediately say, "omg that's so racist" and make 100 tweets because we have gotten used to it and the word used like that no longer have the same meaning it did 200 years ago. Now what if they had banned everyone from using it ever.

Now I know the contex here is a bit different but my point is it will never change it's meaning now hell it might amplify it for all we know, kinda like konami pulling P.T from ps store only made people wanna play it more and it got more attention-(ps4s with p.t install were being sold on ebay for upto $700) complete opposite of what Konami intended.

So my opinion, do what Apple is doing. Ban it from being used offensively or make and enforce stricter laws.

That being said I don't live in America and I voted I don't care, this is just my opinion on the matter.