[Theory] The Demon

Rabbit Teth · May 10, 2015

Angelic. said:
i dont really agree that swirly survived and did the stuff your saying, but i had an idea there might be a swirly thats inversed shaped like the depiction of the fruits right side. with no convienient eyehole lol. maybe it awoke at some point

i cant realy tell if the cloud on the cloak looks backwards to me. like a mirror image. it would match reverse swirly. just some ideas that came into my mind.

also i think mitsukis villiage is new and may have been created around the base of the shinju bc why not. it was in need of reconstruction there. it may be the place where these new people are from since the guy is standing on what looks like a tree stump he made. i see trees in the backround too so it must be outside somewhere.

There are a bunch of theories about Spiral still floating around out there (empty Shinju Fruit, Izuna, Itama, Tobidara). My idea about who Spiral could be ties in with the bigger theory about the Demon. I could still be wrong about Spiral and right about the Demon but the ideas complement each other. Kishi prides himself on being the most unpredictable ninja writer out there. Unfortunately for him he has to contend with a large collection of media (Manga / Anime / Movies / Games / Databooks) some of whom get ahead of each other. I think one of the editors dropped the ball and revealed information that could only spoil Spiral’s return.

Spiral

Why am I so convinced that Spiral is making a big return when we saw him wither and die at the end of Part 2? The answer could be that I’m simply a deluded fanboy. I can’t rule out that possibility… I think Spiral has potential as a character. I have definitely gone out of my way to look for potential survival routes for the man of mokuton.

My primary evidence is not those images of Spiral dying looking like the bushes closing in on Sasuke in the woods (though I do think Kishi planted those images as some foreshadowing – Sasuke was indeed attacked in the woods by what I think is a Zetsu if not actually Spiral). Instead my strongest material to show the return of Spiral is found in the Databooks. In case anyone hasn’t been keeping track of the Databook entries, Tobi was revealed to be Spiral (the Mokuton Suit) rather than Obito (the insides). Where there should have been one entry (for Tobi) there were two (for Obito and Tobi):
Obito

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Tobi

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Tobi was one of the first generation of Zetsus extracted from the Gedo Mazo after Madara had recovered it from the Moon:

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The Tobidara theory suggests that Madara somehow split his consciousness and put some of himself into Tobi. I don’t think this is possible - Madara even in private is nothing less than condescending towards his underlings who in the end stabbed him in the back… literally:

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The first generation of White Zetsus were people killed by the Juubi before Madara ever got his hands on the Gedo Mazo. In terms of identifying who Tobi might have been (before he was eaten), I think the Timeline points to him being alive hundreds and hundreds of years before Madara was ever born:

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Hagoromo states that Indra and Asura’s bodies were destroyed:

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Hagoromo also has regrets which he never elaborated on:

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I think that Indra and Asura fought their father (a second Juubi) before he died and sealed his body in the Moon (the Gedo Mazo). The first was fought by Hagoromo, with his Sun and Moon Staff and Hamura and his (I think it’s supposed to be a Plough / Trident):

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The second (much smaller Juubi) was fought by Asura carrying the Sun Staff alone – I don’t think Asura won this battle:

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After sealing the Juubi both Hagoromo and Hamura were turned into empty shells – Zetsu Hagoromo (matching beard and 9 eyes that correspond to the 9 Bijuu he created in his final moments):

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While Hamura also turned into a empty shell. His is seen during Naruto: The Last:

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Old Man Hamura

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When Hagoromo talks about his sons’ bodies having been destroyed I think that he was the one to destroy them:

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Indra had two Spiral Eyes

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Spiral is the Right Eye

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Sasuke as the latest reincarnation of Indra now has the left (he hasn’t been able to activate it yet but I imagine he will)

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Previous Incarnations

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When Tobi talked of his goal being to made whole again I don’t think it was Obito complaining about giving his eye to Kakashi but Indra complaining that part of his chakra was transmigrating down the Uchiha bloodline:

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Indra was corrupted by Black Zetsu into trying to kill his brother:

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I think Tobindra will be the next Big Bad before we get to the Demon. Naruto and Sasuke will be paying Orochimaru a visit but I suspect they are going on a wild goose chase. Orochimaru won’t make his move or reveal himself and his plans before Boruto The Movie. I imagine the finale of that film will be Boruto vs Mitsuki.

One last thought – If Sarada was grown by Orochimaru then I wonder whether her name was inspired by her discovery. Sarada or Salad (the English meaning of her name) is probably the T1000 compared to Shrub’s T800. If Sarada were one of Orochimaru’s experiments then I wonder whether she was discovered hidden in leaves… Salad Leaves. She might not be a Test Tube baby so much as a new GM Zetsu.
Like Konoha and Indra’s Eye before her… perhaps Sarada was hidden in the leaves:
Konoha

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Indra / Tobindra’s Other Eye

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UnknownJin · May 10, 2015

Rabbit Teth said:
There are a bunch of theories about Spiral still floating around out there (empty Shinju Fruit, Izuna, Itama, Tobidara). My idea about who Spiral could be ties in with the bigger theory about the Demon. I could still be wrong about Spiral and right about the Demon but the ideas complement each other. Kishi prides himself on being the most unpredictable ninja writer out there. Unfortunately for him he has to contend with a large collection of media (Manga / Anime / Movies / Games / Databooks) some of whom get ahead of each other. I think one of the editors dropped the ball and revealed information that could only spoil Spiral’s return.

Spiral

Why am I so convinced that Spiral is making a big return when we saw him wither and die at the end of Part 2? The answer could be that I’m simply a deluded fanboy. I can’t rule out that possibility… I think Spiral has potential as a character. I have definitely gone out of my way to look for potential survival routes for the man of mokuton.

My primary evidence is not those images of Spiral dying looking like the bushes closing in on Sasuke in the woods (though I do think Kishi planted those images as some foreshadowing – Sasuke was indeed attacked in the woods by what I think is a Zetsu if not actually Spiral). Instead my strongest material to show the return of Spiral is found in the Databooks. In case anyone hasn’t been keeping track of the Databook entries, Tobi was revealed to be Spiral (the Mokuton Suit) rather than Obito (the insides). Where there should have been one entry (for Tobi) there were two (for Obito and Tobi):
Obito

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Tobi

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Tobi was one of the first generation of Zetsus extracted from the Gedo Mazo after Madara had recovered it from the Moon:

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The Tobidara theory suggests that Madara somehow split his consciousness and put some of himself into Tobi. I don’t think this is possible - Madara even in private is nothing less than condescending towards his underlings who in the end stabbed him in the back… literally:

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The first generation of White Zetsus were people killed by the Juubi before Madara ever got his hands on the Gedo Mazo. In terms of identifying who Tobi might have been (before he was eaten), I think the Timeline points to him being alive hundreds and hundreds of years before Madara was ever born:

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Hagoromo states that Indra and Asura’s bodies were destroyed:

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Hagoromo also has regrets which he never elaborated on:

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I think that Indra and Asura fought their father (a second Juubi) before he died and sealed his body in the Moon (the Gedo Mazo). The first was fought by Hagoromo, with his Sun and Moon Staff and Hamura and his (I think it’s supposed to be a Plough / Trident):

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The second (much smaller Juubi) was fought by Asura carrying the Sun Staff alone – I don’t think Asura won this battle:

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After sealing the Juubi both Hagoromo and Hamura were turned into empty shells – Zetsu Hagoromo (matching beard and 9 eyes that correspond to the 9 Bijuu he created in his final moments):

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While Hamura also turned into a empty shell. His is seen during Naruto: The Last:

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Old Man Hamura

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When Hagoromo talks about his sons’ bodies having been destroyed I think that he was the one to destroy them:

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Indra had two Spiral Eyes

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Spiral is the Right Eye

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Sasuke as the latest reincarnation of Indra now has the left (he hasn’t been able to activate it yet but I imagine he will)

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Previous Incarnations

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When Tobi talked of his goal being to made whole again I don’t think it was Obito complaining about giving his eye to Kakashi but Indra complaining that part of his chakra was transmigrating down the Uchiha bloodline:

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Indra was corrupted by Black Zetsu into trying to kill his brother:

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I think Tobindra will be the next Big Bad before we get to the Demon. Naruto and Sasuke will be paying Orochimaru a visit but I suspect they are going on a wild goose chase. Orochimaru won’t make his move or reveal himself and his plans before Boruto The Movie. I imagine the finale of that film will be Boruto vs Mitsuki.

One last thought – If Sarada was grown by Orochimaru then I wonder whether her name was inspired by her discovery. Sarada or Salad (the English meaning of her name) is probably the T1000 compared to Shrub’s T800. If Sarada were one of Orochimaru’s experiments then I wonder whether she was discovered hidden in leaves… Salad Leaves. She might not be a Test Tube baby so much as a new GM Zetsu.
Like Konoha and Indra’s Eye before her… perhaps Sarada was hidden in the leaves:
Konoha

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Indra / Tobindra’s Other Eye

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great as always brother but one thing is bothering me...its spiral zetsu. I dont think he followed Sasuke in the woods on chapter 700. It was a image of him when I.T was canceled that was his remains.. i dunno why every keeps saying that hes the one following Sasuke in the woods.

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ROHAN · May 13, 2015

Has it ever struck to anyone that Orochimaru looks very handsome ? Like the Brilliant Male ?

Rabbit Teth · May 13, 2015

UnknownJin said:
great as always brother but one thing is bothering me...its spiral zetsu. I dont think he followed Sasuke in the woods on chapter 700. It was a image of him when I.T was canceled that was his remains.. i dunno why every keeps saying that hes the one following Sasuke in the woods.

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There’s a bit of artistic license involved. Kishi wrote the final chapter for Part 2 months ago and probably thought twice about having Spiral attack Sasuke directly. The imagery of Spiral dying and the parallel with the bushes closing in on Sasuke was… I think… intentional. We’ll have to wait and see – I could be reading it wrong.

Foreshadowing (?)

Foreshadowing is the insertion of clues ahead of time to guide the reader on where the author is going next. This is what I think Kishi was doing with the Bushes and Spiral. I think the clue in 700 was just another form of foreshadowing using visual metaphors … like the Snake (Orochimaru) eating the Rabbit (Kaguya); the Scarecrow (Kakashi – Kakashi means Scarecrow in Japanese) warding off the Crow (Itachi – Crows being his companion of choice); the Weasel (Itachi – Itachi means Weasel in Japanese) protecting its nest (the young weasels representing Sasuke) from the Snake (Orochimaru again). Kishi inserts a lot of subtle clues. Sometimes his foreshadowing parallels current events, while other times I think he does it months and even years in advance.
Snake Eating Rabbit

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Scarecrow shooing away Crow

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Weasel protecting Nest (1m30)

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It seems unlikely that Spiral survived, sure, but I think that it is even more unlikely that there are any other ninja with the ability or experience needed to use mokuton effectively. Mokuton is an extremely difficult technique to master in the Narutoverse. Danzo, was stuck fighting his own Senju implants at the same time as trying to fight Sasuke and eventually he had to cut off his Senju implants in order to keep up the struggle:

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That narrows down the possibilities to three. First there is Yamato. He has the same mokuton signature as the new hooded figure. Yamato is able to grow blocks of wood from his body:

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Can melt into trees:

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and uses his seed to grow clones:

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Right now we know very little about Yamato’s current state. He’s had a lot happen to him which might affect his loyalties and or personality. He was combined with the Shinju Lotus:

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He was joined to Spiral Zetsu (BTW it’s not clear whether Oro recognizes Spiral or Yamato here):

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… and he was injected with Orochimaru’s Venom (a Senjutsu Attack) not once but potentially twice:

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Yamato is not an evil character but we know from Obito and Sasuke’s experiences that good characters can be twisted into doing evil:
Obito (by the Lotus’s Roots)

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Sasuke by Orochimaru’s Senjutsu

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We also know that Orocimaru was prepared to wait for Naruto and Sasuke to fight before retrieving his Test Subject. That precondition has now been met, so perhaps Orochimaru is now in control of ol’ Spooky Eyes Sensei:

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The last time we saw Yamato his eyes were even more suspicious than usual:

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The second option, and the one I think more likely, is what I set out above regarding Spiral. His mokuton capabilities were stronger with Yamato inside him:

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…but he was able to use mokuton before Yamato ever arrived on the scene:
Obito Inside

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Yamato Inside:

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Each Zetsu already proclaims their superiority to any natural born human:

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… but Spiral seems to have much greater potential than any other Zetsu – I would suggest that Tobi was the plant that annihilated the Hunter Nin and who grew the Shinju Lotus with a Sharingan:

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Plus with the pooled experiences of all Zetsu, Spiral has effectively gained years and years worth of training and intel in fighting each and every member of the Shinobi Alliance:
Joint Experiences

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100,000 Zetsu

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Naruto Shadow Clone Training (NB the continuing and parallel Tree theme between Naruto’s development and the Shinju / Konoha / Root / Zetsu)

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The Third option is somebody else / someone new. I discount this possibility simply because Kishi has always had a preference for long story arcs and I think the Demon is now his longest running arc.

Anyway, it looks like whoever is under the Hood is proficient with Mokuton to say the least. Hashirama was able to take down eight of the nine Bijuu with Mokuton. This fella should be more than a match for Naruto:

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His hideout reminds me of the Giants Causeway in NI (the original Fortress of Solitude):

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While it seems improbable that Spiral survived or took over Yamato, I think that Sherlock Holmes sums it up best when he says:
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

Sir Trent Reznor said:
Has it ever struck to anyone that Orochimaru looks very handsome ? Like the Brilliant Male ?

I’ll take that as a sly pun on the Demon rather than any sudden admission of a crush on Orochimaru – though Tsunade did fancy him (at least in the Anime) and Sasuke… well if Sasuke hasn’t been coming back to Konoha for conjugal visits then something’s wrong with him (Sakura is looking mighty fine these days):

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For anyone who’s not been reading this thread the Brilliant Male is a translation of Lucifer. Kishi inserts a lot of potential Biblical refernces to Satan (who only really appears a handful of times in the Bible as a Snake / Fallen Angel). My favourite, that I’ve been sitting on, is how Kiba married Tamaki. For those who haven’t watched Ghostbusters – Dogs lying with Cats is the worst of bad omens … things are about to get Biblical
Kiba and Tamaki (Dogs and Cats living together)

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Ghostbusters:

[video=youtube;q0POXW4V1_k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0POXW4V1_k[/video]

If Orochimaru is the Demon then he is only taking back what was once his anyway:

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SasukexNeji · May 14, 2015

Sir Trent Reznor said:
Has it ever struck to anyone that Orochimaru looks very handsome ? Like the Brilliant Male ?

I've always noticed it. Brilliant male?

Rabbit Teth · May 15, 2015

A lot more detail to process this week – our first introduction to Shin, our first look into the eye of the man under the hood and a new mysterious little critter running around. Despite the shake-ups I’m still pretty confident about most of what I’ve covered so far except with a few amendments. Here’s how I thought 700 +3 ushered in some new questions…

Dead Eyes

First things first, the man under the hood … there’s something off about him. I’m not entirely abandoning the idea that he's Tobi (more later) but that clearly wasn’t Spiral that we saw under the hood as any fool could see (even me).
Hooded Figure

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Who or more to the point what is that under the Hood then? Well he definitely looks and talks like an actual Uchiha. His Eye looks like it’s been stapled in as opposed to the elegant transplants conducted by Madara and Obito:
Madara Transplant – Plop Kerchink (insert own sound effects here)

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That makes me think of Izuna:

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… and Shisui:

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Both of whom lost their eyes prior to their deaths and both of whom were wrapped up in the honour of the Uchiha Clan. Like most, everyone else, I’m inclined to think it is probably Shisui. Izuna never knew Itachi but Shisui did. The man under the Hood seems to hold a grudge against Sasuke for the death of Itachi:

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What I’m not so convinced about is whether he is alive, cursed or reanimated. The Hooded Man’s eye is dark and not just shadows dark but unnaturally dark:

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It could be argued that this is just a trick of the light but normally the Whites of characters’s eyes are much brighter even when cast in shadows:

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Why then are the eyes so dark? Well there are a couple of possible reasons and most if not all of the roads lead to Orochimaru.

Option 1 Edo Tensei

All Edo Tensei have darkened Eyes. This may be inherent to the Techique – it is a forbidden jutsu:

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Equally it might be a reflection of Orochimaru’s chakra. We have only ever seen Edo Tensei being used by Orochimaru (even if Tobirama claims credit for inventing the technique). It is noteworthy how the technique is much stronger when used with Orochimaru’s Chakra…

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If the Hooded man were some kind of Edo Tensei then even though Shisui had one of his eyes stolen and donated the other to Itachi, he would still have Dark Sharingan just like Itachi and Madara did when they were reanimated…
Itachi Edo Eyes (original eyes passed to Sasuke for EMS)

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Madara Edo Eyes (original eyes passed to Nagato)

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If it is Shisui under the Hood then the darkened eyes could be a sign that he is an Edo Tensei. Shisui definitely seemed dead as his body fell over a waterfall while he bled from his eyes. Perhaps Spiral was able to locate the body or Orochimaru was keeping secrets from Kabuto (like his ability to use Senjutsu).

Option 2 Spiral Lives

One thing you might not have noticed about the man under the hood’s eye is that it is stapled open with what could be the same chakra receivers used to control the Six Paths of Pain Technique…
Chakra Receivers:

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The stapling makes me think that either the guy under the hood is not as good at surgery as Orochimaru, Madara and Obito or that the guy under the hood is just a pawn being used by someone else:
Eyes Stapled Open

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Spiral could be using his Sharinnegan to remote control Shisui’s corpse just as he did with Obito and the former Jinchuuriki during the war:

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You will notice how the corpses used have the same darkened dead eyes as Edo Tensei. The difference is that they are fed Chakra by Chakra Receivers:

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Nagato used the same technique to control the Six Paths of Pain – the piercings were what reanimated his collected corpses:

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This brings me to where Spiral might be – I think he’s the little fella hiding in the bushes:

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Spiral was able to create Chakra receivers from the off:

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I think the reason that he might be able to use this technique is that he had a Rinnegan / Sharinnegan before any of Madara’s plotting began:

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After the Juubi was absorbed by BZ and Kaguya – Spiral lost the chakra that had been granted to him and which allowed him to grow to an enormous scale:

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Just as he had when he fed on the Hunter Nin who attacked Kakashi and Rin:

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Without enough Chakra to keep it active the Sharinnegan probably reverted to the inactive state for Indra’s Eyes:

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It’s never been confirmed but there is every chance that Spiral was always able to change his size and shape depending on the circumstances … from the giant Death Spiral and Shinju Lotus at one extreme to a simple mask at the other:

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Also you will notice how all of Spiral’s former insides have developed darkened eyes while under his possession
Obito

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Yamato

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Perhaps the man under the Hood is being remote controlled by Spiral who is now masquerading as that little critter watching from the bushes. If Spiral were controlling Shisui then it's still likely that Spiral is being controlled by Orochimaru:

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Little fella's only cute until he does this:

[video=youtube;8LAi6hwLHqU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAi6hwLHqU[/video]

Which brings me to option 3...

Option 3 Demon Chakra

The last option is not necessarily separate from the previous two. Sure Edo Tensei and the Six Paths technique are distinct but the Dark Eyes are common to a lot of techniques that could all be linked to the Demon.

The Cursed Seal is the best starting point to illustrate this not unusual phenomena – Cursed Seal Mode goes hand in hand with Dead Eyes just as Edo Tensei does:

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When Orochimaru tempts Sasuke and Sasuke activates his Cursed Seal you will notice what colour his eyes turn:

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Then there is the Dark Chakra that spreads though Naruto as the Demon Fox’s Chakra:

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… this is also what appears to tempt Naruto at various junctures in exactly the same way that the Cursed Seal tempted Sasuke:

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Kaguya with the same chakra entering her body likewise develops a Darkness around her Sharinnegan:

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This could also be simply another example of Jashin’s power to complete Dark Transformations in his followers:

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Hidan’s Eyes don’t turn dark but the rest of his body does. If the Demon were Jashin then this might explain why the Shinju went evil and why there is a new young Uchiha named Shin who also looks more than a little like Hidan (though I still think that Shin is a Zetsu):

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Both the Shinju and Jashin feed off carnage:

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Finally there is the Demon Cloak. This apparition of the Demon has distinctly Dark Eyes as well

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In short the Dark Eyes, instead of potentially being a common symptom to lots of distinct techniques that are all forbidden, could simply denote the presence of the Demon's chakra which was inherited by the Bijuu and disseminated by him through the Cursed Seal and Edo Tensei:
The Darkness

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Then again I could just be reading too much into the shadows…

ROHAN · May 15, 2015

Or those black things in his eyes are not Black Rods, but a variant of it; Black Wires which is used by Kakuzu via his Earth Grudge Fear.

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Those are not stapled up eyes, it looks more like it was stitched together. Compare

The stitches on cloaked man's eye.

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To the stitches on Kakuzu.

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Kakuzu's whole body looks stitched together. I wonder if the cloaked guy was made by stitching up the bodies of a few select people. Hmmm

Madara's body, MIA since Fourth Shinobi World War's end.

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Shushui, fate of body unknown.

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Izuna, again anything could have happened to his body.

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It could turn out to be an Undead Abomination.

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The Black Wires also act very similarly to the Black Rods. I got this from the Wiki, so I am not very sure if some of the points are concrete.

Partial Remote Control.

Kakuzu can also put one of those hearts into his limbs and have them move individually

Kakuzu's Pseudo Paths Of Pain.

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The Demon's Chakra ?

Ino Yamanaka commented the masks gave off a bad chakra.

Immortality/Extension of life - Remember Black Zetsu ?

The most significant aspect of these threads is that they granted Kakuzu a form of immortality, although he declined to think of it that way. In addition to sewing up his injuries, he could use the threads to tear into a victim's body, steal their still functioning organs, and integrate them into his own body, thus extending his life.

I wonder if Kakuzu was Madara's puppet (Or Black Zetsu) who attempted to kill Hashirama, the biggest threat to the dreamworld plan. Perhaps the Black Wires were implants rather than a technique (That also Forbidden).

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The Demon's influence - The Black Eyes of Kakuzu ?

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7Deadly Sin · May 15, 2015

What has this to do with the masked guy Demon = Black Eye?? its already know its 2pac #lel autoplay

Narusenpou · May 15, 2015

nice one bro

Rabbit Teth · May 15, 2015

Sir Trent Reznor said:
Or those black things in his eyes are not Black Rods, but a variant of it; Black Wires which is used by Kakuzu via his Earth Grudge Fear.

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Those are not stapled up eyes, it looks more like it was stitched together. Compare

The stitches on cloaked man's eye.

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To the stitches on Kakuzu.

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Kakuzu's whole body looks stitched together. I wonder if the cloaked guy was made by stitching up the bodies of a few select people. Hmmm

Madara's body, MIA since Fourth Shinobi World War's end.

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Shushui, fate of body unknown.

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Izuna, again anything could have happened to his body.

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It could turn out to be an Undead Abomination.

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The Black Wires also act very similarly to the Black Rods. I got this from the Wiki, so I am not very sure if some of the points are concrete.

Partial Remote Control.

Kakuzu's Pseudo Paths Of Pain.

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The Demon's Chakra ?

Immortality/Extension of life - Remember Black Zetsu ?

I wonder if Kakuzu was Madara's puppet (Or Black Zetsu) who attempted to kill Hashirama, the biggest threat to the dreamworld plan. Perhaps the Black Wires were implants rather than a technique (That also Forbidden).

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The Demon's influence - The Black Eyes of Kakuzu ?

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Nice catch.

The Earth Grudge Fear Technique looks like it's involved somehow. I wonder if Shisui's body washed up in the Hidden Waterfall Village - where Kakuzu first learned the technique. Shisui is supposed to have thrown himself into a Waterfall before he died:

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You can see the Waterfalls in the Background behind him before he flung himself over the side:

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Kabuto looked but never found a trace of his corpse:

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Shisui's eyes also had similar markings to Mitsuki's eyes
Shisui

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Mitsuki

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Maybe Mitsuki was originally from the Hidden Waterfall ("that other village"?). We've never seen the village but it is supposed to have a great tree at it's centre which would be in keeping with the theme of the Shinju and Zetsu. Still too early to say anything for certain yet but it's definitely possible. Lets see what Orochimaru has to say...

Slifer · May 16, 2015

I just think the eye is dark/red cause he cant close this eye and thats why the eye is exhausted and dry... It*s not even good transplanted.

AND I cant imagine Shisui be so dumb.. He know Itachi did all he did for the greater worth for the Village and thats the way shisui thinks. I mean common he was not blind in he war, too. That all planned by BZ etc..

Rabbit Teth · May 16, 2015

Slifer said:
I just think the eye is dark/red cause he cant close this eye and thats why the eye is exhausted and dry... It*s not even good transplanted.

AND I cant imagine Shisui be so dumb.. He know Itachi did all he did for the greater worth for the Village and thats the way shisui thinks. I mean common he was not blind in he war, too. That all planned by BZ etc..

I’m not making the case that Shisui is some kind of evil mastermind. I’m making the case that he’s been brainwashed. The Stapled Eye is a clue. It comes from the film “A Clockwork Orange”.

The Ludovico Treatment

What is the significance of the Stapled Eye?

… Before I get into it here's some Ludovico (read on for why)

[video=youtube;t4N5-OALObk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4N5-OALObk[/video]

The Stapled Eye tells us quite a lot about the relationships within the New Akatsuki Organisation. The first thing it tells us is that the man under the Hood is not in control of the organisation. He might be giving the orders to Shin and his clones but he does not have any free will.

The Technique used to stitch the Sharingan into the Socket is the Earth Grudge Fear Technique. This was used by Kakuzu as part of his immortality technique. This type of surgery allowed Kakuzu to replace his heart whenever he grew old or weak and replace it with another. Not only could Kakuzu exchange his heart for a new one but he could control up to five hearts at any one time allowing him mastery of all five Nature Transformations:

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The man under the Hood is the victim of this technique not the one exploiting it. That tells us that he is not the “Big Bad” controlling things from the shadows. Someone else is.

The man under the hood is likely to have undergone an eye transplant but it would seem, from the way he talks of Itachi, that he was an Uchiha. This is why I would guess that the man under the Hood is Shisui:

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Just because Shisui is under the Hood does not mean he is in command. I think that the one in control is actually the mini Juubi guy watching from under the bushes:

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I think this guy is the remains of Indra for reasons that I’ve set out above.

He is currently coordinating both the man under the Hood and Shin. He is able to witness events and co-ordinate his orders from afar by transmitting his commands to Shisui and the Shin Clone. White Zetsus are able to relay information over great distances through a chain of bodies:

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This is how both Shin and Shisui can witness the fight between Sarada and the Shin Clone from their hidden base (all Zetsu are connected telepathically):

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Spiral (now with a fragment of Orochimaru’s consciousness inside him) seems to have built on Madara and Oro’s earlier experiments:

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Spiral likely knows the Earth Grudge Technique because he was the one to put forward Kakuzu as a candidate to join Akatsuki (as seen in the video game cutscenes):
2min40

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Spiral would also be well placed to corrupt Shisui into doing evil things in good faith. This is exactly how Spiral corrupted Obito – by arranging the death of his childhood romance in front of his eyes:

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We can probably already tell how Spiral corrupted Shisui. His grudge against Sasuke is based on the belief that Sasuke killed Itachi in bad faith. We know that Sasuke killed Itachi in an effort to avenge the Uchiha. We also know that Itachi let Sasuke kill him in order to free his little brother from Orochimaru’s grasp but Shisui wouldn’t know either of these things. Shisui would only know what Spiral had shown him.

This is where the Ludovico Treatment comes in. The Ludovico Treatment is taken from “A Clockwork Orange” in which a violent rapist and murderer is incarcerated and experimented on in order to remove his criminal instincts. Alex, the criminal, has a love of Ludwig van Beethoven’s 9th symphony 4th movement – hence the name the Ludovico Treatment (Ludvig Van for short – the book and film has its own street slang). In order to try and rehabilitate Alex, the Authorities attempt to torture him whenever he has impure thoughts. They show Alex scenes of extreme violence accompanied by his favourite music and make him nauseous every time he gets excited by the images he sees. This is why the eyes are stapled open – it is part of the brainwashing technique used against him
Alex Eyes Wide Open (excuse the Kubrick pun)

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Man under the Hood's Eye

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Shisui is not evil just as Obito was not evil. I think that the reason why his eyes are stapled open is that he was forced to watch his best friend get killed over and over again:

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So far it looks to me like Shin is at the bottom of the heap, next up the chain is Shisui’s reanimated corpse (with dark eyes because he’s serving the Demon whether he knows it or not)… after that is Spiral / Indra (the little critter controlling Shisui) and above him is the Demon (who is keeping a close eye on the prize – Naruto’s kid Boruto – Cough Mitsukirochimaru).

The Demon knows that to win at Shogi and Chess you need to take the King:

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ROHAN · May 16, 2015

Rabbit Teth said:
Spiral likely knows the Earth Grudge Technique because he was the one to put forward Kakuzu as a candidate to join Akatsuki (as seen in the video game cutscenes):
2min40

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Did you watch the full video ? If the video ties to canon then it gives a few very interesting revelations.

1) Kakuzu - This guy was a pioneer in immortality. What is interesting is how Spiral came to know of him. In the final scenes of the video, Orochimaru tells Hidan that Kakuzu would be the perfect partner for him because of his near-immortality. Orochimaru's statements hint that he knew Kakuzu very well (Kakuzu - Orochimaru's Guinea pig ?) and suggested him to Spiral behind the scenes ?

2) Orochimaru - He acts very suspicious in his fight against Sasori. He immediately recognizes the Rinnegan (Why he didn't recognize Nagato's Rinnegan ? Very Suspicious) and tries to obtain it. He also realizes that it's Yahiko and makes a very mysterious statement about Jiraya. Perhaps, Orochimaru indirectly used Jiraya to develop the Rinnegan ? After all, Jiraya trained Nagato only after Orochimaru's threats.

3) Hidan - Orochimaru gives information about him to Akatsuki first. Orochimaru claims Hidan is an experiment which was successful and achieved Immortality. What is suspicious is that Orochimaru had the means to seal away Hidan which would hint to Hidan being Orochimaru's experiment.

This parallels what happened with the Juubi. If Kaguya was a failed experiment and went out of control, then Orochimaru would have kept Seals as a last resort. Those were the Sun, Moon and Star Seals (Chibaku Tensei).

Rabbit Teth · May 18, 2015

Sir Trent Reznor said:
Did you watch the full video ? If the video ties to canon then it gives a few very interesting revelations.

1) Kakuzu - This guy was a pioneer in immortality. What is interesting is how Spiral came to know of him. In the final scenes of the video, Orochimaru tells Hidan that Kakuzu would be the perfect partner for him because of his near-immortality. Orochimaru's statements hint that he knew Kakuzu very well (Kakuzu - Orochimaru's Guinea pig ?) and suggested him to Spiral behind the scenes ?

2) Orochimaru - He acts very suspicious in his fight against Sasori. He immediately recognizes the Rinnegan (Why he didn't recognize Nagato's Rinnegan ? Very Suspicious) and tries to obtain it. He also realizes that it's Yahiko and makes a very mysterious statement about Jiraya. Perhaps, Orochimaru indirectly used Jiraya to develop the Rinnegan ? After all, Jiraya trained Nagato only after Orochimaru's threats.

3) Hidan - Orochimaru gives information about him to Akatsuki first. Orochimaru claims Hidan is an experiment which was successful and achieved Immortality. What is suspicious is that Orochimaru had the means to seal away Hidan which would hint to Hidan being Orochimaru's experiment.

This parallels what happened with the Juubi. If Kaguya was a failed experiment and went out of control, then Orochimaru would have kept Seals as a last resort. Those were the Sun, Moon and Star Seals (Chibaku Tensei).

Orochimaru is behaving very suspiciously in those cutscenes. The bit that stood out to me is that when Hidan asks his Lord Jashin to watch as he punishes Kakuzu for his sacrilege for calling Jashin weird (something that Orochimaru gets called a lot) – Orochimaru then approvingly comments that Hidan has a nice menacing bearing. Later still Orochimaru instructs Hidan that Lord Jashin would be best served if Hidan joined Akatsuki and continued his sacrifices to the evil god rather than go on a rampage and get caught. Orochimaru knows about all of the Immortality Techniques used amongst Akatsuki – perhaps because his own Transmigration technique is superior to all of them even if it is incomplete (he just needs the perfect host).

Anyway … back onto Tobi. A crazy thought struck me while thinking about the new little critter. If he is Indra then it might explain not only who is controlling Shisui’s corpse but also where Madara’s Spare Eye came from. The Spare Eye was one of the biggest unresolved mysteries of Part 2…

Spare Eye? What Spare Eye?

After Madara was defeated at the Valley of the End he used one of his eyes to activate Izanagi post mortem:

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Madara spent the remainder of his natural life after reviving himself causing trouble for the leaf and starting the Great Ninja Wars. You will notice that when Madara went to Iwagakure and faced off against a young Oonoki that he only ever used one eye – this is because the other was blind from using Izanagi:

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Eventually Madara grew old, but shortly before his death he was able to awaken both his eyes in order to activate the Rinnegan:

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Madara then gave away both his eyes to Nagato:

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After giving away both his eyes Madara was still left with one more. This is the Spare Eye that we never learned the truth behind in Part 2:

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Where did Madara get this Eye from? My answer is that he got it from the Lotus aka Tobi aka Spiral aka Indra
Indra’s Eyes - 3 Tomoe Sharingan

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Indra’s Eyes – Spiral Mangekyo Sharinnegan (hard to make out on the scans but it’s there in the original + recreations)

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We haven’t seen the next stage of Sasuke’s Sharinnegan but it’s not hard to guess that his eye will one day take on the abilities of Indra’s Left Eye.

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Where then is Indra’s Right Eye? Well right now I imagine that it is contained within the little critter hiding in the Bushes:

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This is not a minion:

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I think that this critter is the reason why Madara had one Eye when he should have had none. Madara was given this eye by the plant that also kept him alive long after his natural lifespan should have ended:

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Madara only grew this plant after he had summoned the Gedo Mazo from the Moon (shortly before his second death from old age).

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Madara was not kept alive by his pet plant – he was reanimated by something that Hagoromo had sealed within the Moon because it was a danger to the rest of humanity – his own contaminated Juubi corpse complete with his elder son’s remains. This is why the Lotus not only has a 9 Tomoe Sharinnegan but also why the Lotus talks to Madara, why it saved Madara after he was defeated by Naruto and why it transferred it’s eye into Madara’s forehead in order to activate the Eye of the Moon Plan… here’s a reminder of how Madara ended up with three Rinnegan (one of which, the Sharinnegan, talked to him). The Eye couldn’t have been Kaguya because she was brought back by Black Zetsu later on.

To recap … Madara starts the fight after his revival by having White Zetsu retrieve the Right Rinnegan that Obito hid:

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Madara gets 8 Gatesed into the Lotus by Gai (at this stage Madara only has one Eye)

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Madara gets up only to be Lava Rasenganed by Naruto

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Madara is saved by the Mysterious Lotus / Spiral / Tobi / Indra Zetsu – notice how the plant talks in particular and how it has its own Sharinnegan (just like Sasuke’s new eye)

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Then Madara takes back his other Rinnegan from Obito

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Madara closes the fight by opening a third eye, the one he got from the Lotus, and using it to activate Infinite Tsukuyomi:

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This is Indra's other eye. Indra was involved with Black Zetsu's plans from very early on:

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This eye by all rights belongs to Sasuke but Sasuke did not inherit this eye for reasons unknown. I think that the reason is because Indra was only able to allow part of his chakra to Transmigrate upon death. The rest of his chakra was trapped within the Gedo Mazo after it fed on him – turning him into a White Zetsu…
Indra and Asura’s Remains (?):

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The last two people to visit hagoromo on his deathbed were Indra and Asura. We know from Tobi that Hagoromo lost control over his Chakra before he died (… and who would know better than Indra himself?). I think that Hagoromo turned into a Second Juubi before he was able to seal his body in the Moon…
Indra and Asura visiting Hagoromo on his Deathbed:

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This is why the Gedo Mazo has nine eyes (where Hagoromo expelled the Bijuu from before they were dispersed across the world) and why the Gedo Mazo has a beard (something Kaguya’s empty shell wouldn’t have)…
Gedo Mazo

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Indra’s Transmigrant (Sasuke) might have made peace with Asura’s Transmigrant (Naruto) but we never did get to see their spirits come together. If Indra were a Zetsu he might not be as keen as Sasuke was to end the war over the inheritance of Ninshuu:

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War of the Transmigrants

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Indra’s Zetsu might also be peeved at Sasuke for killing his Brother’s Zetsu – White Zetsu Prime – who was the template for the Zetsu Army (all of whom looked a lot more like Asura than they did Hashirama (himself another Asura Transmigrant) who they were supposed to have been cloned from:
White Zetsu Army

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Sasuke killing White Zetsu Prime

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White Zetsu Army seeking revenge

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Which brings me to the Man under the Hood. If this man is Shisui (for reasons set out above) then how come he is able to use Mokuton so expertly. I think the reason is that his corpse is being controlled by Spiral just as Spiral controlled Obito’s mind, body and soul (not all the time but whenever Obito wasn’t playing ball with the plan):
Mind

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Body

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Soul

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… and just as Spiral controlled Madara - A Puppet on his Stings

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This isn’t a new Man under the Hood

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It’s a very old one reanimating a corpse.

ROHAN · May 18, 2015

Rabbit Teth said:
To recap … Madara starts the fight after his revival by having White Zetsu retrieve the Right Rinnegan that Obito hid:

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Madara gets 8 Gatesed into the Lotus by Gai (at this stage Madara only has one Eye)

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Madara gets up only to be Lava Rasenganed by Naruto

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Madara is saved by the Mysterious Lotus / Spiral / Tobi / Indra Zetsu – notice how the plant talks in particular and how it has its own Sharinnegan (just like Sasuke’s new eye)

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Then Madara takes back his other Rinnegan from Obito

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Madara closes the fight by opening a third eye, the one he got from the Lotus, and using it to activate Infinite Tsukuyomi:

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This is Indra's other eye. Indra was involved with Black Zetsu's plans from very early on:

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You didn't take into consideration what happened after that.

Black Zetsu stabs Madara from the back.

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The Rinnesharingan then transfers to Kaguya.

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Until the eye gets sealed away by Chibaku Tensei.

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So, technically the Right Spiral Eye is sealed until Naruto and Sasuke's Sun and Moon seals combine again.

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But, I think Spiral could have re-obtained the right eye by a certain medium.

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That is by using Madara's Rinnegan to break the Chibaku Tensei seal by bypassing it.

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I think Madara and Kaguya are still out there by a theory that I posted in NDS by request.

Sir Trent Reznor said:
Madara's Relevance

First off, we all know that Madara's body has a huge amount of secrets related to the Rinnegan and Juubi. So, much so that Tobirama hid Madara's body away until Black Zetsu found it.

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Obito's body had the secrets of Dual Kamui. Kishi eventually uses Kaguya as a plot device to destroy Obito's body.

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But the same didn't happen to Madara. The fate of his body is completely unknown. These are the last panels of Madara in the Part 2 Series.

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The lack of closure to Madara's body is glaring as we already know what happens when bodies are not disposed off. (Above ^ Irony comes; If Tobirama had disposed off Madara's body; the Juubi would not have being revived).

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When, Kaguya was hit with Chibaku Tensei, It's important to note that only the Gedo Mazou was sealed.

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The Nine Bijuus separated.

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Kaguya, the Rabbit Bijuu separated.

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And Madara also separated.

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But, here rises an inconsistency. If Kaguya was not sealed away, where did she go ? This is where something comes in which you might have missed. Trust me, even I missed it, Credits goes to the one who originally posted it.

That is Kaguya transferred herself into Madara. Why do I say so ? First look at the Spirit fluffy material Kaguya is formed from.

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Kaguya then spits Madara. These are the Gravity lines showing Madara falling down.

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Then suddenly these lines are replaced by a white spirit like fluffy substance.

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This shows Kaguya immediately escaping to Madara. At that point, Kaguya didn't have the Juubi's/Gedo Mazou's evil chakra as that got sealed, so Naruto will not be able to sense Kaguya. .

Madara was the perfect vessel for Kaguya; which is why Black Zetsu used Madara as Kaguya's vessel.

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Kaguya's escape mirrors how Kaguya transferred her will to Black Zetsu right before Hagoromo and Hamura's Chibaku Tensei.

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Madara's Rinnegan was not sealed away as many people think. In the initial drafts of the manga, there is no Hashi Face on Madara's chest which implied that Madara's Rinnegan was sealed.

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But later on, the face re-appears in the final draft of the manga showing that Madara's Rinnegan was not sealed away.

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Perhaps Kishi changed his mind to bring Madara back in Part 3 ? But how does that work here ?

Well, this is where comes a revelation. Madara's Rinnegan can bypass the Sun and Moon Chibaku Tensei Seal. This information was only known to Madara (Who is MIA), Obito (Who Died) and Black Zetsu (Who was sealed away). Thus, no one knows that Madara's Rinnegan can summon the Gedo Mazou by bypassing the Chibaku Tensei seal.

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If this happens, the Juubi will be revived once again as the Gedo Mazou would get summoned from Sasuke and Naruto's Chibaku Tensei by Madara's Rinnegan. But does anyone know this ? I suspect Orochimaru and Kabuto perhaps knew this because of thier research on Madara (Remember, Black Zetsu handed over Madara's body for Edo Tensei and research to Kabuto).

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A question now arises if we take this in mind. Is Madara still alive ? I would say yes. Even though the Juubi was extracted, Kaguya, a part of the Juubi did enter Madara.

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Madara would still be alive though extremely weakened and in a coma, just like what happened with Obito and Hagoromo.

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Because of Sasuke's sudden Revolution, nobody got the time to check if Madara was still alive. Madara could have very well being in a near-death state and Sakura, the only medic could have figured it out, that is if she was knocked out by Sasuke's Genjutsu.

(Zabuza escaped Kakashi and Team 7 by taking a near-death condition caused by Haku's needles)

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The Sakura and Madara connection is best summed up by this picture.

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Madara's body with Kaguya's spirit is free for the taking; (This is how the Kaguya transfer to Madara happened)

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I think Spiral by Using Madara's Rinnegan was able to re-summon the Gedo Mazou. The God Tree's stump I think is being fed by the Gedo Mazou hidden underground just like how it fed the giant Lotus tree in Madara's hideout.

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And I think ironically Madara is in Yamato's position attached to the Lotus. (Madara has Hashirama's cells.)

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This is the source of the black rod network where Black Zetsu emerged.

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I think even Black Zetsu might be being used as a tool now.

However the BZ that was thrown into Chibaku Tensei was not his complete body:
Chibaku Tensei

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At least a chunk of BZ was being pinned to the ground by Chojuro on another battlefield when IT was launched:

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While another chunk might have transferred into Spiral Yamato in the same way that a chunk had remained hidden in Obito’s White Zetsu half waiting for Madara’s instructions:

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Rabbit Teth · May 18, 2015

Sir Trent Reznor said:
You didn't take into consideration what happened after that.

Black Zetsu stabs Madara from the back.

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The Rinnesharingan then transfers to Kaguya.

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Until the eye gets sealed away by Chibaku Tensei.

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So, technically the Right Spiral Eye is sealed until Naruto and Sasuke's Sun and Moon seals combine again.

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But, I think Spiral could have re-obtained the right eye by a certain medium.

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That is by using Madara's Rinnegan to break the Chibaku Tensei seal by bypassing it.

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I think Madara and Kaguya are still out there by a theory that I posted in NDS by request.

I think Spiral by Using Madara's Rinnegan was able to re-summon the Gedo Mazou. The God Tree's stump I think is being fed by the Gedo Mazou hidden underground just like how it fed the giant Lotus tree in Madara's hideout.

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And I think ironically Madara is in Yamato's position attached to the Lotus. (Madara has Hashirama's cells.)

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This is the source of the black rod network where Black Zetsu emerged.

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I think even Black Zetsu might be being used as a tool now.

I agree with most of that. I'm not sure Zetsu would need Madara anymore. Zetsu's body was made with Shinju cells so any Uchiha should do… even a dead one (like Shisui). The man under the hood looks like he has the raw materials necessary to combine Uchiha and Senju for a Rinnegan already. Tobi might even be able to grow new ones at will or even upgrade one from the collection… if he survived.

I disagree with you on the Shinju and Kaguya though. I don' think what the Hooded man is standing on is the stump of the God Tree and nor do I think Kaguya would invade Madara's body after spitting him out. I'll explain more later if it becomes relevant again. I'm probably reaching too far ahead with the theory as it stands. I still stand by my earlier ideas on that front (though I might update them).

Assuming Tobi or another Zetsu is in charge behind the scenes (Shisui shouldn't be able to use mokuton without one) then I wonder who else of Kabuto's wish list Zetsu could have retrieved. Tobi did have Danzo's corpse in the lab. I'd hate to see Jiraiya dredged up... I was glad he wasn't part of the Edo Army... and Chiriku was never all that interesting but I suppose his character opened the door into the Fire Temple which would be interesting to see more of.

ROHAN · May 20, 2015

Just something that I noticed.

First take a look at the grooves of Shusui's eyes.

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Here's the hooded man's eye.

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And the Hooded man has the same eye groove design as Shusui.

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jiraiya nindo · May 20, 2015

Great post OP!!! I love reading threads like this, even if I don't particularly agree with them. Very nicely done!!

Rabbit Teth · May 20, 2015

jiraiya nindo said:
Great post OP!!! I love reading threads like this, even if I don't particularly agree with them. Very nicely done!!

Thanks. Some theories work out and some don’t. I’ve had a pretty decent record over the years. So far nobody's been able to debunk this one but it doesn’t mean I’m right yet. The theory's evolved a bit since the original post (that's how the thread's kept going - but the basics are still there).

If the spoilers for 700+4 are true then I’m pretty sure I’m on the right tracks.

Spoilers (?)

Only Spiral Zetsu should be able to use Kamui (outside of Obito and Kakashi):

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Spiral might even have been responsible for activating that particular Sharingan ability in Obito:

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As for Shisui (if it is Shisui under the hood), well it would seem that his corpse passed into the hands of Orochimaru after his death. When Ao checks out Danzo’s Chakra he comments that Danzo has not just Shisui’s Eye but his shoulder as well:

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Danzo plucked Shisui’s Eye during their confrontation just before the Uchiha Massacre but to have Shisui’s chakra in his shoulder, Orochimaru’s surgery would have been necessary as Tobi comments:

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It’s not definitive proof quite yet but things are looking good that Tobi is an ancient Uchiha (Indra) and that Orochimaru is the true final villain … the Demon. I could still be wrong / the spoilers could be fake.

Slifer · May 26, 2015

Bump....

Cause this thread is worth it.

[Theory] The Demon

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