[Discussion] Clash of the Badass "right hand men"

[A v i]

That doesn't read well...

See the edit. Whatever, if you're incapable of explaining how thinking someone is reasonable is same as admitting defeat in an argument then don't even bother with replying again. It'll save a lot of time for us.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

See the edit. Whatever, if you're incapable of explaining how thinking someone is reasonable is same as admitting defeat in an argument then don't even bother with replying again. It'll save a lot of time for us.

If you acknowledge a point in a debate then you've lost the point

 

[A v i]

If you acknowledge a point in a debate then you've lost the point

I am asking you to tell me how acknowledging a point is same as a calling someone reasonable? I have never said Riker was right , I said he's a reasonable person in this section which has absolutely nothing to do with me admitting that his points in this thread are totally correct.

 

[saw2097]

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Seems to me that in the OP-verse hes known as Luffy's first mate.

This pretty much settles it, if the manga says Zorro is the first mate then he is the first mate.

Denying it would be no different then denying that Gol D Roger was King of the Pirates.

 

[Punk Hazard]

This pretty much settles it, if the manga says Zorro is the first mate then he is the first mate.

Denying it would be no different then denying that Gol D Roger was King of the Pirates.

A scan of Urouge saying he's the first mate does not mean he's the first mate. If I tried, I can find a scan of Enel saying his will is the sole creator of the entire One Piece universe. I can find a scan of Don Krieg claiming he is the strongest man in the world. In the recent chapter alone, I can find a scan of someone going Luffy is supposed to be 9 meters tall. All of these are things said in the manga, they must all be true then, correct?

So why are we mentioning how they work? Because how they work has nothing to do with Zoro being the first mate. Luffy is the captain yet probably the most useless next to zoro as far doing stuff goes. Is he not the captain? lol.

Ah , but the 8-foot tall has nothing to do with first mate. Just like "World's strongest man" has nothing to do with 8ft tall man. Rumor vs logical guess. Who is Kid's first mate Killer. Who is Roger's first mate? Rayleigh.. Of course you'll deny them with the same old thing about "where is it in the manga".BUT if we talk about solely where it is in the manga then we can bring up alot of things that would make even the captain into simply one of the crew members.

1 issue you never used the bounties i mentioned or the famous bounties in the manga to counter my point. You used bounties done by confusion and also used for comedy relief. And thus you claimed all bounties are bs. Which is simply insulting Oda's way of telling how strong someone is. Using examples like "chopper" and etc to prove bounties are false is kind of old now, and over used. Majority > few exceptions. What happens when Luffy/Zoro/Sanji get stronger? bounty goes up.

So can you show us Sanji being referred to as the first mate? no.. anywhere Sanji put Luffy's dream about his own? no.. Any moments when the relationship between luffy/sanji was emphasized like Zoro/Luffy's? no....


PS: Urouge still contains more credibility than fan's opinions, and holds a point in the manga which was only directed at Zoro and nobody else in their ship. Zoro and Luffy's reputation far exceeds everyone else's on the ship. Just like the Pirate king and the Dark King's.

How they work, as in, the dynamic of the crew. They have no hierarchy, a first mate doesn't fit into the way the crew works. I don't work as in labor, I mean work as in the way they interact and the dynamic.

It does though. The 8-foot-tall thing shows that people hear things about the Strawhats and make conclusions and accept things they think is truth based on them. The 8-foot-tall thing also shows that these conclusions are at times not true. That means that someone outside of the crew going "I heard things about them and Zoro, I think he's the first mate" does not mean that Zoro is indeed the first mate. It could be just one of these faulty conclusions.

I never said all bounties are BS, I said bounties can be unreliable, and so can conclusions based on them. For example, if someone looks at Chopper's bounty poster, and were to make a conclusion based solely on that, the conclusion is gonna be that he's some weird pet who isn't dangerous, when this isn't the case. Another example would be that if one were to compare the bounties Law and Doflamingo, a conclusion could be that Law is a more dangerous man than Doflamingo due to the fact that he's more wanted. This also isn't the case. There are things that sometimes just aren't taken into consideration or just not known when forming bounties, and aren't expressed through bounties. Just because someone looks at the bounties and sees that Zoro's is the second highest and concludes that he's the first mate because of this doesn't mean they're right and that he is the first mate.

Yes, when Sanji was about to take Zoro's place against Kuma. He put Luffy's dream and the safety of the crew above his own.
Relationship moments similar to Zoro's? Multiple, actually. Back on Sabaody when the Marines were attacking Kid, Law and Luffy, there is a scene where others intercept the blow intended for the captains. Bepo intercepted the blow coming at Law, Killer intercepted the blow coming at Kid. These two are portrayed as their captains' right hand men. Who intercepted the blow coming at Luffy? Sanji, not Zoro.

A key moment many use when referring that Zoro is the first mate is where Zoro yelled at the crew and Luffy about accepting Usopp back, stopping a hasty decision. Sanji did the same thing when Luffy was about to tell Usopp to just leave if he wanted to, and Sanji stopped him by kicking him through a table.

 

[KingHashirama]

How they work, as in, the dynamic of the crew. They have no hierarchy, a first mate doesn't fit into the way the crew works. I don't work as in labor, I mean work as in the way they interact and the dynamic.

Dynamic of the crew is just like majority of the big pirate crews. When he gains more people, he'll have commanders and so on. You can't have a strict hierarchy with 9 people group.. who are all your friends.

First mate simply means second-in-command, which is Zoro. Luffy is the first-in-command... There is a hierarchy, however its simply not applied or enforced. There is always a hierarchy in a pirate crew, and Zoro made sure to enforce it. No one is above the captain, even luffy was getting dull on that.

It does though. The 8-foot-tall thing shows that people hear things about the Strawhats and make conclusions and accept things they think is truth based on them. The 8-foot-tall thing also shows that these conclusions are at times not true. That means that someone outside of the crew going "I heard things about them and Zoro, I think he's the first mate" does not mean that Zoro is indeed the first mate. It could be just one of these faulty conclusions.

From the manga storyline yes. From what Oda used it for.. it was for comedy. And Uroge is not your average fodder in one piece. He is a pirate above Sanji and Zoro. He has credbility more than the "8-foot tall".. considering people have already seen his size now.

I never said all bounties are BS, I said bounties can be unreliable, and so can conclusions based on them. For example, if someone looks at Chopper's bounty poster, and were to make a conclusion based solely on that, the conclusion is gonna be that he's some weird pet who isn't dangerous, when this isn't the case. Another example would be that if one were to compare the bounties Law and Doflamingo, a conclusion could be that Law is a more dangerous man than Doflamingo due to the fact that he's more wanted. This also isn't the case. There are things that sometimes just aren't taken into consideration or just not known when forming bounties, and aren't expressed through bounties. Just because someone looks at the bounties and sees that Zoro's is the second highest and concludes that he's the first mate because of this doesn't mean they're right and that he is the first mate.

False, Doflamingo cannot gain a bounty because he was already made into a Warlord, while Law had the ability to keep on gaining his until he got made into one. << 2 different things. Mihawk can have the least bounty, but nontheless his prowess will be determined by him being the strongest swordsman and a warlord. I never used bounties as the sole way to determine it. I use bounties as 1 of the reasons together with the other reasons i stated.

Luffy +Zoro + Sanji get stronger = get higher bounties = manga mechanic.
Roger forces rayleigh to join him = Luffy forces Zoro to join him.
Pirate king (captain) + Dark king (second-incommand) = Luffy + Zoro

^^^^^ All of these things can't be missed. And also, it isn't about them being right, it is about Zoro's status as second-in-command and how its been shown hes in command after luffy through portrayal, through character statements and so on. You can deny the above things by seperating them, but really can't deny them as a whole.

Yes, when Sanji was about to take Zoro's place against Kuma. He put Luffy's dream and the safety of the crew above his own.
Relationship moments similar to Zoro's? Multiple, actually. Back on Sabaody when the Marines were attacking Kid, Law and Luffy, there is a scene where others intercept the blow intended for the captains. Bepo intercepted the blow coming at Law, Killer intercepted the blow coming at Kid. These two are portrayed as their captains' right hand men. Who intercepted the blow coming at Luffy? Sanji, not Zoro.

Can you showcase him talking about "luffy's dream"?? no, you are making the assumption he was doing it for luffy's dream, it could very well be over robin and Nami's sake like hes usually tripping over them. Or simply because he wanted to protect the crew. Why instead of Sanji did Oda make Zoro go? emphasis on him being Luffy's first mate.

As for the the other one.. ehhh no not really.

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But thats just one, you said there were many.

A key moment many use when referring that Zoro is the first mate is where Zoro yelled at the crew and Luffy about accepting Usopp back, stopping a hasty decision. Sanji did the same thing when Luffy was about to tell Usopp to just leave if he wanted to, and Sanji stopped him by kicking him through a table.

2 different situations. In that situation when Sanji/Nami/Chopper were yelling and so on .. Zoro was in the back simply analyzing and kind of getting mad. Because Ussopp was being childish, and for Zoro them beings pirates isn't some game as he made clear. He had no problem with Luffy saying that, he even made the emphasis on "thats what a captain is".

^^ Even in that situation Zoro is kind of the one who stood out and had a different reaction compared to the others.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Dynamic of the crew is just like majority of the big pirate crews. When he gains more people, he'll have commanders and so on. You can have a strict hierarchy with 9 people group.. who are all your friends.

First mate simply means second-in-command, which is Zoro. Luffy is the first-in-command... There is a hierarchy, however its simply not applied or enforced. There is always a hierarchy in a pirate crew, and Zoro made sure to enforce it. No one is above the captain, even luffy was getting dull on that.



From the manga storyline yes. From what Oda used it for.. it was for comedy. And Uroge is not your average fodder in one piece. He is a pirate above Sanji and Zoro. He has credbility more than the "8-foot tall".. considering people have already seen his size now.


False, Doflamingo cannot gain a bounty because he was already made into a Warlord, while Law had the ability to keep on gaining his until he got made into one. << 2 different things. Mihawk can have the least bounty, but nontheless his prowess will be determined by him being the strongest swordsman and a warlord. I never used bounties as the sole way to determine it. I use bounties as 1 of the reasons together with the other reasons i stated.

Luffy +Zoro + Sanji get stronger = get higher bounties = manga mechanic.
Roger forces rayleigh to join him = Luffy forces Zoro to join him.
Pirate king (captain) + Dark king (second-incommand) = Luffy + Zoro

^^^^^ All of these things can't be missed. And also, it isn't about them being right, it is about Zoro's status as second-in-command and how its been shown hes in command after luffy through portrayal, through character statements and so on. You can deny the above things by seperating them, but really can't deny them as a whole.


Can you showcase him talking about "luffy's dream"?? no, you are making the assumption he was doing it for luffy's dream, it could very well be over robin and Nami's sake like hes usually tripping over them. Or simply because he wanted to protect the crew. Why instead of Sanji did Oda make Zoro go? emphasis on him being Luffy's first mate.

As for the the other one.. ehhh no not really.

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But thats just one, you said there were many.



2 different situations. In that situation when Sanji/Nami/Chopper were yelling and so on .. Zoro was in the back simply analyzing and kind of getting mad. Because Ussopp was being childish, and for Zoro them beings pirates isn't some game as he made clear. He had no problem with Luffy saying that, he even made the emphasis on "thats what a captain is".

^^ Even in that situation Zoro is kind of the one who stood out and had a different reaction compared to the others.

Can you have a strict hierarchy with 9 people? Yes. Does Luffy? Nope.

No, there is no second-in-command. The person who gives the most orders is Luffy followed by Nami. Zoro has commanded the crew once, and that was during the Usopp incident. An isolated incident does not make him the first mate.

Good for Urouge. He can have all the combat prowess he wants, doesn't change a thing about what I said. Combat prowess=/=credibility.

Not false, actually part of of my point. The fact that Law's bounty could have kept increasing while Doffy's couldn't is an example of how unreliable bounties can be. The point of that example ties into when I said there are times when certain things are either not applied to a bounty, or not known. Doffy could have done things that would warrant a higher bounty that the government has given, and they know about it, but don't because he's a Warlord. Or, the many things they didn't know about and therefore haven't applied to his bounty. It's an example of bounties not having an accurate reflection, why the reflection isn't accurate doesn't matter, it's still inaccurate.

Yes it does. For one, Sanji was doing it for the sake of the entire crew, as was Zoro. Zoro wasn't doing it because he places Luffy's dream above his, but because he places the safety of the crew and Luffy above his own and his dreams. Zoro said "This is the only way I can think of to save the others." His priority was the lives of his friends, not Luffy's dream. Saying Luffy's dream was just a testament to his faith in Luffy, a faith they all have. Sanji was clearly doing it for the well-being of everyone, not just the women. Otherwise, he'd have just let Zoro do the sacrifice.

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You tried though.

Hardly different. When Zoro gave his input, they were screaming and arguing the same way. Zoro had no problem with Luffy saying that, doesn't mean there wasn't a problem with him saying it period. Zoro said that they can't just hastily bring Usopp back into the crew, that's not a decision that can be rushed through and made based on emotion clouding judgement. The situation with Usopp when Sanji kicked Luffy is the other side of the coin. Once someone is part of the crew, you can't just hastily kick them out because your emotion is clouding your judgement.

 

[KingHashirama]

Can you have a strict hierarchy with 9 people? Yes. Does Luffy? Nope.

Actually what I meant was there "can't" be a hierarchy with 9 people who are friends. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist there. Simply means its not being enforced.

No, there is no second-in-command. The person who gives the most orders is Luffy followed by Nami. Zoro has commanded the crew once, and that was during the Usopp incident. An isolated incident does not make him the first mate.

Person who gives the most orders is actually Nami, not luffy. And it was the only isolated incident where the captain was letting himself being run over. Before that he never had any reason to step in.

Good for Urouge. He can have all the combat prowess he wants, doesn't change a thing about what I said. Combat prowess=/=credibility.

A captain of a powerful ship and a person who is popular > Some fodder.. so it kind of does increase his popularity.. and then you have the times, Luffy's strength was judged by Zoro's strength.

Not false, actually part of of my point. The fact that Law's bounty could have kept increasing while Doffy's couldn't is an example of how unreliable bounties can be. The point of that example ties into when I said there are times when certain things are either not applied to a bounty, or not known. Doffy could have done things that would warrant a higher bounty that the government has given, and they know about it, but don't because he's a Warlord. Or, the many things they didn't know about and therefore haven't applied to his bounty. It's an example of bounties not having an accurate reflection, why the reflection isn't accurate doesn't matter, it's still inaccurate.

Nah its false. And its not an example of unreliable bounties.. it would be if bounties were the only things being judged, but fact of the matter is Law was under Doffy and Doffy was a warlord before Law became famous. You can't judge them, on an even playing field. Sure if Law wasn't one of the characters who was getting developed then yea you can apply it.. but he is one of the characters who is gaining new heights just like Luffy/Zoro.. so you can only actually compare Law to them and their generation.

You still haven't proven me wrong tho. Zoro and Luffy and Sanji gain higher bounties as they become stronger. Zoro is also like Killer who is the right hand man for Kidd..

Yes it does. For one, Sanji was doing it for the sake of the entire crew, as was Zoro. Zoro wasn't doing it because he places Luffy's dream above his, but because he places the safety of the crew and Luffy above his own and his dreams. Zoro said "This is the only way I can think of to save the others." His priority was the lives of his friends, not Luffy's dream. Saying Luffy's dream was just a testament to his faith in Luffy, a faith they all have. Sanji was clearly doing it for the well-being of everyone, not just the women. Otherwise, he'd have just let Zoro do the sacrifice.

he did say "

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.

But where can you prove it he was doing it for everyone else? nowhere, because Oda didn't show Sanji being the important one. When the crew was down as a whole, Zoro was the man to step up. Oda had Zoro save Sanji.

"faith they already have".. sure thats what you believe.. but hasn't been stated, only been stated for Zoro man. Zoro is still to this day the only person who luffy was looking to join his crew since the start.. yet hes not the first mate? .

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You tried though.

Ah but you don't mention that this happened before the scan i posted... while Bepo /Sanji incident happened after the scan i posted.

Hardly different. When Zoro gave his input, they were screaming and arguing the same way. Zoro had no problem with Luffy saying that, doesn't mean there wasn't a problem with him saying it period. Zoro said that they can't just hastily bring Usopp back into the crew, that's not a decision that can be rushed through and made based on emotion clouding judgement. The situation with Usopp when Sanji kicked Luffy is the other side of the coin. Once someone is part of the crew, you can't just hastily kick them out because your emotion is clouding your judgement.

No, he said he doesn't want someone who leaves crew on a whim to comeback acting like nothing happened. He also emphasized on Ussopp disrespecting luffy.

No when Sanji kicked him, Sanji thought Luffy was out of line, because he told someone who disrespected him to leave. Zoro actually didn't disagree.. he actually "complimented" him on acting like a captain.

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Was the only one who wasn't freaking out, and he actually seemed to be mad at Usopp.

Idk where the "Emtions clouding your judgement" came from.

 

[jiraiya lives]

Beckman vs the rain...

lately Oda has had a tendency of making Zoro fights either too easy for him, too quick, or just boring..

 

[arv993]

My mental capability is low even though I can use grammar correctly? At least I'm not writing in monosyllabic 'txt spk' fashion 90% of the time. This disproves any personal accusations you're attempting to make. Why do you have to make this personal? That's hardly showing respect on your own behalf! So in short, practice what you preach

really using abbrevations is bad? welcome to the internet bro things are shortened and as long as you understand my message using "text speak" is by all means its fine. I was merely trying to educate you as you don't know the difference between a concession in a debate and acknowledgment of another person. so let me understand you using 100% correct grammar absolves you from all your moronic statements? I've haven't heard that one b4 please elaborate.

This pretty much settles it, if the manga says Zorro is the first mate then he is the first mate.

Denying it would be no different then denying that Gol D Roger was King of the Pirates.

it should be but there are some of the most stupid ppl on NB who would argue that since some no name townsman from dressrosa thought luffy was 8 ft tall it makes this claim unworthy. there's clear intention from oda portraying zoro to be the right hand man. but hey again we cant take obvious signs as the truth or otherwise luffy is 8 ft tall. i still cant believe this is a topic some morons argue about

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

really using abbrevations is bad? welcome to the internet bro things are shortened and as long as you understand my message using "text speak" is by all means its fine. I was merely trying to educate you as you don't know the difference between a concession in a debate and acknowledgment of another person. so let me understand you using 100% correct grammar absolves you from all your moronic statements? I've haven't heard that one b4 please elaborate.

Hmmm, I see it only took you 10 days to formulate a grammatically correct response

 

[A v i]

Hmmm, I see it only took you 10 days to formulate a grammatically correct response

I don't get why you care so much about grammar.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

I don't get why you care so much about grammar.

It's more a case of reciprocating his condescending tone

 

[arv993]

Hmmm, I see it only took you 10 days to formulate a grammatically correct response

I'm sorry I only come to NB once in 10 days got better things to do. And oh you're banned seems like you said more moronic things that is such a shock to me.

It's more a case of reciprocating his condescending tone

I think you mean reciprocating "to" his condescending tone. For a guy who cares so much about grammar I would think u would get one sentence right.

 

[sravan]

I would love to see ben's fight.
I don't care about zorro's fight because in my opinion zorro is stronger than killer.
If killer gives zorro an extreme diff it would be like coby defeating akainu & becoming fleet admiral.
And about vice captain we already have ussopp to handle things because he is the only guy interested in that title from the start.
When a fight starts zorro & sanji rush to it because they love to fight.They will not say guys you go fight we will take the control here.