[Discussion] Zoro would have fodderized....,

[A v i]

You were evidently wanking by trying to relegate Sanji and being over generous to Zoro, hence my claim makes sense

Rather than claiming that I am downgrading Sanji without providing any reasons due to which you think I am relegating him, why don't you prove me wrong with an actual argument consists of awesome feats and portrayal of Sanji which would put him on Zoro's level and prove me wrong?

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

You were evidently wanking by trying to relegate Sanji and being over generous to Zoro, hence my claim makes sense


That's not wanking, If I judge by feats and comparative notes then there is substance to my opinion

You consider it wank because I like Sanji and disagree with you on everything, as you know nothing about One Piece. Your opinion always changes and contradicts itself. You call me "wanking" when I just see it as you disliking a sense of proportion

Yep I know nothing about One Piece and Rinnemaki, the guy who believes Croc can beat Luffy, knows everything about the series. Crocodile didn't show anything at MF that puts him in the same tier, much less above Luffy.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

You need to learn the difference between wanking and trolling, because the OP is obviously trolling.

I question whether you troll every time you post. Wanking is basically trolling unknowingly

Rather than claiming that I am downgrading Sanji without providing any reasons due to which you think I am relegating him, why don't you prove me wrong with an actual argument consists of awesome feats and portrayal of Sanji which would put him on Zoro's level and prove me wrong?

You're downgrading him based on the fact we haven't seen him fight recently, nor have we seen him fight with full power. Why would a member of the M3 be far weaker than another after being portrayed as so close to eachother for the entirety of the 744 chapters since Sanji was introduced? Why would Oda suddenly decide to make Sanji weak in comparison to Zoro?

It doesn't make sense. Zoro has just as little chance as Sanji against Doflamingo. Zoro edges Sanji in strength but his lack of flight capability puts him at a disadvantage against Doflamingo

I don't need to show feats, partly because we haven't seen any yet other than glimpses of what he's capable of on Fishman Island. His 'Hells Memories' is way beyond Diable Jambe, most people rate him on his performances with just Diable Jambe, forgetting that he's had another powerup altogether.

It's unfair to judge Sanji on being that weak without performances at full power. So the most logical explanation is that Sanji is just as close in proportion to Zoro as he was pre-timeskip, a constant that Oda has maintained throughout the Manga

Yep I know nothing about One Piece and Rinnemaki, the guy who believes Croc can beat Luffy, knows everything about the series. Crocodile didn't show anything at MF that puts him in the same tier, much less above Luffy.

I believe you've misunderstood. I said that based on his performance in MF (outdoing Jinbe, on the same level as G2 Luffy as seen in Fishman Island) puts him above G2 and G3 Luffy, G4 Luffy is a different story

 

[A v i]

You consider it wank because I like Sanji and disagree with you on everything, as you know nothing about One Piece.

And in what sense what you're currently doing in my case is any different? You're not wanking Sanji, being logical and reasonable because you think so?

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

And in what sense what you're currently doing in my case is any different? You're not wanking Sanji, being logical and reasonable because you think so?

Well, I am being logical. As Oda has portrayed Sanji and Zoro immenesely close in terms of power, time after time, after time, after time. They're inseperable. Zoro will always only ever edge Sanji. If he and Zoro were to fight, Zoro wouldn't be able to win without using Ashura

 

[Bogard]

I think the gap between monster trio have been blown out of proportion due to recent feats. Sure Zoro and Luffy have much better feats than Sanji currently(especially now with the gear4 thing blowing things out of proportion), but he is sooooo underrated. He just didn't get the chance to prove all what he can do in a full out 1 on 1. Since the timeskip, he either shared his "fight"(not even a fight when he only landed a finishing blow) with Jinbei and had unfinished skirmiches(with Vergo and Doflamingo).

People are really too quick to jump into conclusions with him and sadly gets underrated(i used to underrate him myself though i must admit). I hope he gets his time to shine against Pekoms and Tamago who should be comparable if not stronger than the likes of Pica, a fight i found totally disappointing in the end

The way i see it, portrayal-wise the gap between Luffy/Zoro/Sanji is the same gap between a captain, a vice-captain&right hand man and a left hand man

- Sanji is one step below Zoro level
- Zoro is more or less gear2/3 Luffy level
- Luffy outclasses Zoro level in gear4 however, but considering the timelimit of the mode including the heavy drawbacks, with Luffy heavily drained mindly and physically in the end, the simple fact of using gear4 pushes the difficulty of the fight to the very high difficulty-extreme range

Sanji just lacks the feats to prove it and i hope he does

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

I think the gap between monster trio have been blown out of proportion due to recent feats. Sure Zoro and Luffy have much better feats than Sanji currently(especially now with the gear4 thing blowing things out of proportion), but he is sooooo underrated. He just didn't get the chance to prove all what he can do in a full out 1 on 1. Since the timeskip, he either shared his "fight"(not even a fight when he only landed a finishing blow) with Jinbei and had unfinished skirmiches(with Vergo and Doflamingo). People are really too quick to jump into conclusions with him and sadly gets underrated(i used to underrate him myself though i must admit). I hope he gets his time to shine against Pekoms and Tamago who should be comparable if not stronger than the likes of Pica, a fight i found totally disappointing in the end

Exactly. People are drawing conclusions by firstly ignoring the whole of the pre timeskip phase and without seeing either Zoro or Sanji fighting at full capacity. Although, we've seen more of Zoro which obviously brings many narrowminded people and fapboys to think Sanji's not much better than Franky or something ridiculous like that (and yes, people have told me that on Millenium Forums). His fight with Doflamingo was a complete fight, however, Law faired now better from THREE attempts. So clearly Sanji is still on the same level as the Supernovas. I reckon Sanji is on the same level as the stronger one of Tamago and Pekoms, and we might see one of those scenes where there are two enemies, one gets beaten to sh*t and the other one comes along and ties with the protagonist. Seems to be a popular scenario in Shonen.

The way i see it, portrayal-wise the gap between Luffy/Zoro/Sanji is the same gap between a captain, a vice-captain&right hand man and a left hand man

- Sanji is one step below Zoro level
- Zoro is more or less gear2/3 Luffy level
- Luffy outclasses Zoro level in gear4 however, but considering the timelimit of the mode including the heavy drawbacks, with Luffy heavily drained mindly and physically in the end, the simple fact of using gear4 pushes the difficulty of the fight to the very high difficulty-extreme range

Sanji just needs the feats to prove it and i hope he does

He's already got a couple of feats

Hells Memories is long range and the flames completely engulf a target, which makes him far more dangerous. Logically the flames make him more durable as the heat would weaken close range attacks

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His other great feat is being strong enough to kick Wadatsumi into the air when he was the size of the entire plateau, that's some immense strength! Not much short of Zoro

 

[A v i]

You're downgrading him based on the fact we haven't seen him fight recently, nor have we seen him fight with full power. Why would a member of the M3 be far weaker than another after being portrayed as so close to eachother for the entirety of the 744 chapters since Sanji was introduced? Why would Oda suddenly decide to make Sanji weak in comparison to Zoro?

I don't remember saying that I think Sanji is much weaker because he hasn't fought in a while. Sanji performance during his battles after TS along with his portrayal when compared to that of Zoro are what made me believe that he's much weaker than him. I don't know whether you have been paying attention to manga or not but Sanji has always been one step below Zoro and Luffy except for EL in which case Luffy left Zoro and Sanji in dust and moved one step further then Zoro again increased the gap b/w him and Sanji at TB via shusui.

Even Zoro didn't go all out still his feats & in fact every single feat of him even prior to his battle with Pica after TS outclasses that of Sanji.

It doesn't make sense. Zoro has just as little chance as Sanji against Doflamingo. Zoro edges Sanji in strength but his lack of flight capability puts him at a disadvantage against Doflamingo.

On what basis you think Zoro stands as much chance as Sanji when everything hints towards the point of him being much stronger? Zoro clearly proved himself to be able fight fine even in the middle air. I don't even get how Joker being able to fly makes any difference, Kaku and all of Cp9 members can do it before TS and I certainly don't remember any of SH's being able to do that yet they did defeated them and I don't recall they ability to fly making big difference in the outcome of the battle but for some reason it makes so much difference because Sanji can use it now?

I don't need to show feats, partly because we haven't seen any yet other than glimpses of what he's capable of on Fishman Island. His 'Hells Memories' is way beyond Diable Jambe, most people rate him on his performances with just Diable Jambe, forgetting that he's had another powerup altogether.

I don't understand how HM is so great apart from having more AOE than his usual kicks. He has great chance to prove himself against Vergo but his performance againt Vergo wasn't really that great. And we have the later get one shotted by Law who's supposedly weaker than Luffy who belong to M3. Then we have Zoro pretty much replicating Law's PH feats at Dressrosa.

Then again he has a chance to shine against Joker but again his performance was subpar, I can see why he got overwhelmed but what made me question his strength is the fact that he failed to even notice that Joker uses strings despite having COO as his speciality.

It's unfair to judge Sanji on being that weak without performances at full power. So the most logical explanation is that Sanji is just as close in proportion to Zoro as he was pre-timeskip, a constant that Oda has maintained throughout the Manga

It's not like I am riding entirely on feats to have this opinion.

Their respective portrayal,The amount of time they spent to train,Their teachers and their respective feats. Everything favours the point of Zoro being one step above Sanji. Sanji is certainly not weak but he's not on the same table as Zoro.

Well, I am being logical. As Oda has portrayed Sanji and Zoro immenesely close in terms of power, time after time, after time, after time. They're inseperable. Zoro will always only ever edge Sanji. If he and Zoro were to fight, Zoro wouldn't be able to win without using Ashura

Not really, they were never close to each other until EL, even doraki argument was kinda broken due to the fact that Kaku's real wroth can't be measured by it as he has completely different fighting style than every other CP9 member. He's both martial artist and a swordsman with swordsmanship being his primary fighting style where as Jabra who was show to be just below Kaku was nothing more than a martial artist. Going by their doraki, Kaku as a martial artist which is his secondary fighting style was on par with Jabra but with he's much stronger than him with his primary fighting style.Which was proved to be obvious by the respective results of their battles. Jabra lost at mid dif against a wounded Sanji where as Kaku pushed fresh Zoro who's more capable than Sanji to high dif which explains the actual difference in their calibre. Oda again increased the gap b/w Sanji and Zoro at TB with Shusui.

His other great feat is being strong enough to kick Wadatsumi into the air when he was the size of the entire plateau, that's some immense strength! Not much short of Zoro

It wasn't Sanji, Wadatsumi was floating because of the air leak which was caused by Jimbe. No one ever kicked him up as far as I remember. Besides, HM isn't a long range type attack, It was a close range attack but has more AOE.

 

[Bogard]

@ZWP i said Sanji needs the feats to prove it because i don't find Hell Memories impressive. It has range, but that's it. Not much destructive power. It was impressive back in Fishmen Island, but the current feats of characters like Elizabello, Chinjao, or Sai makes it look like shit, let alone Zoro's Sanzen Sekai. The power-scaling upgraded a lot, that's why i have hope in Sanji delivering something awesome, though i for it to be awesome, i think he should do something else than fire and concentrate on something bringing much attack power, one of the things i believe is lacking in his arsenal

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

@ZWP i said Sanji needs the feats to prove it because i don't find Hell Memories impressive. It has range, but that's it. Not much destructive power. It was impressive back in Fishmen Island, but the current feats of characters like Elizabello, Chinjao, or Sai makes it look like shit, let alone Zoro's Sanzen Sekai. The power-scaling upgraded a lot, that's why i have hope in Sanji delivering something awesome, though i for it to be awesome, i think he should do something else than fire and concentrate on something bringing much attack power, one of the things i believe is lacking in his arsenal

We've only seen one Hell's Memories attack so far, you can't say he's lacking in his arsenal if he has hardly shown or had the opportunity to show anything yet

 

[Bogard]

The Kick of Hell Memories itself didn't even send a deflated Wadatsumi flying. How can i be impressed by it? Hell Memories is all about heat and a close range kicking attack to boot. In contact, it ignites the body of the target in an instant at impressive range and has high enough temperature to scorch Wadatsumi's body, but Wadatsumi's skin isn't durable to begin with. He clearly lacks the destructive power.

 

[Zorø]

Look at his name, look at his sig, look at his profile, ignore it

Look at your name and profile and sig u dnt have a right u hypocrite.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Look at your name and profile and sig u dnt have a right u hypocrite.

Even though my profile is always changing, it's been Kin'emon and Crocodile and Sanji all within the past week bro. Do I have to have Zoro everything before you consider anything I say as valid?

 

[Mugiwara kun]

You people need to stop all this feat and portrayal BS. Stop saying Zoro will fare better than Sanji!!!! It pisses me off. Be realistic,Zoro will get fodderized by Doffy. Infant he stands no chance whatsoever. He will receive the same Sanji treatment. It took a kamikaze move by Law to bring down doffy to a level Luffy can beat him and even that isn't enough. What makes you think Zoro will fare much better. Sanji and Zoro are closer in strength than you all wankers want to admit. Luffy is heads and shoulder above his crew (zoro and sanji included )

 

[Bogard]

You people need to stop all this feat and portrayal BS. Stop saying Zoro will fare better than Sanji!!!! It pisses me off. Be realistic,Zoro will get fodderized by Doffy. Infant he stands no chance whatsoever. He will receive the same Sanji treatment. It took a kamikaze move by Law to bring down doffy to a level Luffy can beat him and even that isn't enough. What makes you think Zoro will fare much better. Sanji and Zoro are closer in strength than you all wankers want to admit. Luffy is heads and shoulder above his crew (zoro and sanji included )

He won't win, but he'd definitely fare better than Sanji since he is stronger than Sanji. The gap between Luffy/Zoro/Sanji is the same

 

[U mAd]

zoro fans need to get this through their heads .badasness is not equal to strength .lufyy>>zor>sanji.

 

[Bogard]

zoro fans need to get this through their heads .badasness is not equal to strength .lufyy>>zor>sanji.

It has nothing to do with badasness. It seems that with the current feats, people went overboard though. The truth is we don't know how far or how close they are. Current Zoro hasn't fought anyone who broke his defense and he didn't run into anything he couldn't cut yet (except Fujitora but it was in a small skirmich). How can we know if G4 runs circles around him or if he can compete?

Don't get me wrong, Luffy should be stronger with G4, but nothing we've seen is screaming far behind. So far Zoro hasn't been beaten up or blitzed by his opponents, and he has just as good damage output feats as Luffy does without remotely being pushed(we've not even seen Asura yet).

Maybe G4 is out of his league, but there's no clear message about that in the manga.

 

[Punk Hazard]

The Kick of Hell Memories itself didn't even send a deflated Wadatsumi flying. How can i be impressed by it? Hell Memories is all about heat and a close range kicking attack to boot. In contact, it ignites the body of the target in an instant at impressive range and has high enough temperature to scorch Wadatsumi's body, but Wadatsumi's skin isn't durable to begin with. He clearly lacks the destructive power.

So? It's not about how much wanton, area destruction you do. It's about how much damage is put into the attack. Hell Memories and Diable Jambe deal with dealing damage through burning, not through explosive or widespread destructive force. It localizes the damage and delivers it internally, rather than releasing it as a burst of raw power. Remember what Sanji said when he first used Diable Jambe? "If I can't smash his Tekkai, then I'll burn through it." Hell Memories is never supposed to send a target flying, it's supposed to burn them so severely they can't fight anymore.

It's like Akainu's fist. If his magma punch clashed with Zoro's Thousand Worlds, Zoro would lose even though his attack has more destructive power.

 

[Bogard]

So? It's not about how much wanton, area destruction you do. It's about how much damage is put into the attack. Hell Memories and Diable Jambe deal with dealing damage through burning, not through explosive or widespread destructive force. It localizes the damage and delivers it internally, rather than releasing it as a burst of raw power. Remember what Sanji said when he first used Diable Jambe? "If I can't smash his Tekkai, then I'll burn through it." Hell Memories is never supposed to send a target flying, it's supposed to burn them so severely they can't fight anymore.

It's like Akainu's fist. If his magma punch clashed with Zoro's Thousand Worlds, Zoro would lose even though his attack has more destructive power.

Except Sanji's fire isn't nearly even as hot as Akainu's. It wasn't even shown to burn regular steel in the manga when the simple fact of Akainu being nearby steel(without touching it) melt it in an instant. Comparison holds no weigth

 

[Punk Hazard]

Except Sanji's fire isn't nearly even as hot as Akainu's. It wasn't even shown to burn regular steel in the manga when the simple fact of Akainu being nearby steel(without touching it) melt it in an instant. Comparison holds no weigth

That's not the point of the comparison. At all. The point is to show that one technique having more destructive power doesn't make it better than one that has less, nor does it mean it would win in a clash.

The comparison has nothing to do with heat.