[Discussion] Clash of the Badass "right hand men"

[Punk Hazard]

Yup lets ignore the fact that it was Oda who made his characters say those statements and also forgot the fact that no character other than Zoro in crew was considered to be VC by anyone. If he doesn't have any intention of looking at him as VC then why even bother himself by making his characters state something like it? Why didn't any character said same shit about Sanji? Why not Usopp Or Nami?

The thing is that Oda choose Zoro out of all people in crew to replace Luffy which means that he thinks of his as someone who's next to only Luffy in the crew. Luffy always puts his life on the line to save crew not only because he cares enough to give up his life ,It's also because it's Luffy's responsibility to save crew from enemy. Zoro was the one to play that role when Luffy was out of game which implies that crews responsibility stands on Zoro's shoulders when Luffy's not present implying that his position is next to Luffy.

Nami takes charge just like Zoro so it ain't a big deal.
Sanji did something similar to Zoro so it's not a VC thing.
Usopp did this similar to Zoro, Brook did that similar to Zoro so Zoro ain't any different.

You can use as many excuses as you can but one thing that failed to do is that naming a character in the crew who has all those qualities in one person. Surely each character carries one quality of Zoro but what makes him special is that he has all of them in one person which is why he's more of a VC than any other crew member.




If you're talking about holding enemy back so that his crew members can be saved then Zoro already did it at Arlong park.

Other statements Oda made characters say/express:

1. "My will alone created this world."-Enel
2. "I'm gonna send all of them to Hell with you."-Rob Lucci
3. "I'm the world's strongest man."-Don Krieg
4. "Chopper is nothing more than the pet of the Strawhat crew"-World Government
5. "I can defeat Fujitora, thousands of Marines, Zoro, Luffy and Law."-Pica
6. "Law is dead."-Doflamingo

Now, how many of these statements do you agree with simply because Oda wrote the character saying it?

Right, the only times a vice-captain has been brought up in the Strawhat crew has been by Urouge, who is going based off of rumors, what the WG reports and seeing one Strawhat one time, and Bartolomeo, who said that's that something he does personally, and not some established fact or opinion of the world or anyone else. Bartolomeo's statement is essentially the same as "No one else says this, but I do." The fact that these are the only two instances of the crew having a first mate, never mind it being Zoro, but the concept of a first mate period, hurts the concept even more because both are unreliable.

Every single member of the crew puts their lives and well-being on the line in order to help the crew. Zoro fighting Daz Bones, Nami fighting Khalifa, Sanji fighting Jabra, Chopper fighting Kumodori(spelling), it's all for the sake of the crew's survival and the crew coming out victorious. Once again, Zoro is not special for that, anyone of them would have done it. Right before that, every member and even complete strangers yelled out "Hell no!" and defied Kuma for Luffy's sake, knowing full and well Kuma would attempt to kill them as a result.

 

[Anduril]

Marco is Whitebeard's first mate. Give me proof he was Whitebeard's first recruit, and the debate ends.

One confirmed first mate is a first recruit. I dunno if you know this, but correlation=causation is a fallacy.





Two different definitions, I see nothing about being the first to join.

Sorry, I was a bit busy.
@Bold and Highlighted part, see below.

Spoiler

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And I don't want to hear about it being an Anime only scene and shit. Most of the things in the anime are cannon and approved by oda, well at least more cannon than what you think for sure. So now as you said end the discussion.​

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[A v i]

Other statements Oda made characters say/express:

1. "My will alone created this world."-Enel
2. "I'm gonna send all of them to Hell with you."-Rob Lucci
3. "I'm the world's strongest man."-Don Krieg
4. "Chopper is nothing more than the pet of the Strawhat crew"-World Government
5. "I can defeat Fujitora, thousands of Marines, Zoro, Luffy and Law."-Pica
6. "Law is dead."-Doflamingo

Now, how many of these statements do you agree with simply because Oda wrote the character saying it?

They were all proven wrong by manga where as Zoro's case wasn't. Even official material calls him VC like figure. Sure , Oda can't announce that he's the second in command as he portrayed Luffy's crew as a crew of independent people with no hierarchy. But you can't really refute the fact that he has every possible right to call himself a VC. Everything Oda has been to doing with Zoro hints that he sees him as the someone who stands next to Luffy. He's the one who holds most responsibility after Luffy.

Right, the only times a vice-captain has been brought up in the Strawhat crew has been by Urouge, who is going based off of rumors, what the WG reports and seeing one Strawhat one time, and Bartolomeo, who said that's that something he does personally, and not some established fact or opinion of the world or anyone else. Bartolomeo's statement is essentially the same as "No one else says this, but I do." The fact that these are the only two instances of the crew having a first mate, never mind it being Zoro, but the concept of a first mate period, hurts the concept even more because both are unreliable.

Every single member of the crew puts their lives and well-being on the line in order to help the crew. Zoro fighting Daz Bones, Nami fighting Khalifa, Sanji fighting Jabra, Chopper fighting Kumodori(spelling), it's all for the sake of the crew's survival and the crew coming out victorious. Once again, Zoro is not special for that, anyone of them would have done it. Right before that, every member and even complete strangers yelled out "Hell no!" and defied Kuma for Luffy's sake, knowing full and well Kuma would attempt to kill them as a result.

The fact that it was a rumor proves that the world of OP acknowledged him as crews VC. Let me remind you that not even titles such as WSM,WSSM and WSC are more credible than Zoro's VC title. There is no organization or a group that holds a tournament and decide the best out of every category. They were all just rumours believed by many just like what's going on with Zoro.

No one said other crew members aren't loyal. I was talking about level of responsibility they hold. Luffy takes highest burden while facing obstacles,it'll be Zoro when Luffy's not around and that's what happened at TB. Zoro was the one to fight Kuma in Luffy's place. He was the one to save crew in Luffy's place. If both Zoro and Luffy are not around then it'd have been Sanji as he holds highest responsibility after Zoro. Zoro's body wasn't following his instructions back at TB and he was standing and remained concious only because of the his will to save his crew. Sanji volunteered himself to take Zoro's place but what happened to his aim of saving crew when Zoro hit him? He lost concious and failed to fulfil his task.

 

[arv993]

They were all proven wrong by manga where as Zoro's case wasn't. Even official material calls him VC like figure. Sure , Oda can't announce that he's the second in command as he portrayed Luffy's crew as a crew of independent people with no hierarchy. But you can't really refute the fact that he has every possible right to call himself a VC. Everything Oda has been to doing with Zoro hints that he sees him as the someone who stands next to Luffy. He's the one who holds most responsibility after Luffy.





The fact that it was a rumor proves that the world of OP acknowledged him as crews VC. Let me remind you that not even titles such as WSM,WSSM and WSC are more credible than Zoro's VC title. There is no organization or a group that holds a tournament and decide the best out of every category. They were all just rumours believed by many just like what's going on with Zoro.

No one said other crew members aren't loyal. I was talking about level of responsibility they hold. Luffy takes highest burden while facing obstacles,it'll be Zoro when Luffy's not around and that's what happened at TB. Zoro was the one to fight Kuma in Luffy's place. He was the one to save crew in Luffy's place. If both Zoro and Luffy are not around then it'd have been Sanji as he holds highest responsibility after Zoro. Zoro's body wasn't following his instructions back at TB and he was standing and remained concious only because of the his will to save his crew. Sanji volunteered himself to take Zoro's place but what happened to his aim of saving crew when Zoro hit him? He lost concious and failed to fulfil his task.

dont argue with those kids, next topic would be is luffy really a captain lol. i got negged for saying databook holds relevance, its stupid to think that u know more than databooks and there is also manga evidence to back up the claim.

 

[KingHashirama]

Where?

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Seems to me that in the OP-verse hes known as Luffy's first mate.

 

[A v i]

dont argue with those kids, next topic would be is luffy really a captain lol. i got negged for saying databook holds relevance, its stupid to think that u know more than databooks and there is also manga evidence to back up the claim.

If it were someone other than Riker then I would have ignored him/her ages ago.

 

[Punk Hazard]

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Seems to me that in the OP-verse hes known as Luffy's first mate.

No, all that says is that Urouge thinks he's the first mate. First, let's look at Urouge. He's seen exactly 1 Strawhat, on exactly one occasion, and didn't even interact with him. That hardly makes Urouge's impressions and opinions valid for anything about the Strawhats. What he's been shown to go by is rumors. That brings me to the second point: His source of information. Whatever he knows about the Strawhats either come from word of mouth from others, or the World Government via newspapers.

Word of mouth is notoriously lacking in credibility for anything, even more so in the OP-world. When someone shouted that Lucy was Luffy, someone in there mentioned Luffy was dead, and another said he was 8-feet-tall. "I heard from him" is hardly good for this.

Nothing has indicated that the WG has labelled Zoro the first mate to the public in anyway. If anyone thinks Zoro is the first mate, it's probably just do to his reputation as a pirate hunter and the rumors about his killing intent implying that he's a formidable man, and therefore is the first mate. We can only guess that they guessed that, hardly counts as confirmation. Maybe they think he's the first mate because he has the second highest bounty of the crew. Once again, not credible. One word: Chopper. If conclusions based on posters and bounties equal confirmation, then Chopper is confirmed as nothing more than the Strawhat's pet and another mysterious person defeat that Kumadori person or however his name was spelled.

If it were someone other than Riker then I would have ignored him/her ages ago.

Not too sure how to interpret this.

 

[A v i]

Not too sure how to interpret this.

I said I would ignore almost anyone but you in such a discussion because I consider you to be one of reasonable members that should be taken seriously here in this section.

 

[KingHashirama]

No, all that says is that Urouge thinks he's the first mate. First, let's look at Urouge. He's seen exactly 1 Strawhat, on exactly one occasion, and didn't even interact with him. That hardly makes Urouge's impressions and opinions valid for anything about the Strawhats. What he's been shown to go by is rumors. That brings me to the second point: His source of information. Whatever he knows about the Strawhats either come from word of mouth from others, or the World Government via newspapers.

Word of mouth is notoriously lacking in credibility for anything, even more so in the OP-world. When someone shouted that Lucy was Luffy, someone in there mentioned Luffy was dead, and another said he was 8-feet-tall. "I heard from him" is hardly good for this.

Nothing has indicated that the WG has labelled Zoro the first mate to the public in anyway. If anyone thinks Zoro is the first mate, it's probably just do to his reputation as a pirate hunter and the rumors about his killing intent implying that he's a formidable man, and therefore is the first mate. We can only guess that they guessed that, hardly counts as confirmation. Maybe they think he's the first mate because he has the second highest bounty of the crew. Once again, not credible. One word: Chopper. If conclusions based on posters and bounties equal confirmation, then Chopper is confirmed as nothing more than the Strawhat's pet and another mysterious person defeat that Kumadori person or however his name was spelled.


Not too sure how to interpret this.

Hmm, then whitebeard wasn't the strongest man in the world? Roger wasn't the pirate king? << all of these are simply verbal things, not actual formal titles. People started calling Roger the pirate king. People started calling Whitebeard the world's strongest man.

But WG labeling Zoro, has nothing to do with what people like Urouge think. Anyone know who knows about the bounties and has been following the strawhats would come to the conclusion Zoro is the Right hand man of Monkey D. Luffy. Zoro has taken on the second strongest every arc. << This is portrayal , and nothing is shown against it.

Chopper being a pet is due to confusion and is used for comedy relief lol. However, there is no confusion for Zoro and Luffy, these 2 started the "infamy" of the strawhats. Just like Sanji's ugly picture and so on.

Has Sanji been referred to as the first mate by anyone? no. nami? no Robin? no..... only Zoro has been called the first mate and by a credible pirate.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Hmm, then whitebeard wasn't the strongest man in the world? Roger wasn't the pirate king? << all of these are simply verbal things, not actual formal titles. People started calling Roger the pirate king. People started calling Whitebeard the world's strongest man.

But WG labeling Zoro, has nothing to do with what people like Urouge think. Anyone know who knows about the bounties and has been following the strawhats would come to the conclusion Zoro is the Right hand man of Monkey D. Luffy. Zoro has taken on the second strongest every arc. << This is portrayal , and nothing is shown against it.

Chopper being a pet is due to confusion and is used for comedy relief lol. However, there is no confusion for Zoro and Luffy, these 2 started the "infamy" of the strawhats. Just like Sanji's ugly picture and so on.

Has Sanji been referred to as the first mate by anyone? no. nami? no Robin? no..... only Zoro has been called the first mate and by a credible pirate.

No, Urouge is not credible. What part of seeing one Strawhat one time makes him credible about how they work?

That doesn't disprove any part of my post. Some things being said being true does not mean all things said are true, or are you trying to say that Luffy really is an 8-foot-tall dead pirate?

Yeah, I just explained why bounties aren't credible. If you wanna talk about bounties, then in your response counter what I've said about why they can't be used, don't just say "Bounties can be used" again.

Doesn't matter, it still shows that the WG's information can be unreliable, meaning that just because it came from the WG doesn't make it true(they haven't labelled him first mate btw, just in case you think they did).

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

I said I would ignore almost anyone but you in such a discussion because I consider you to be one of reasonable members that should be taken seriously here in this section.

You've basically admitted defeat

 

[arv993]

You've basically admitted defeat

thats called respect for someone's opinion. i guess u must be 12-13 years old so its a concept u dont yet understand.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

thats called respect for someone's opinion. i guess u must be 12-13 years old so its a concept u dont yet understand.

Your incorrect judgement and lack of respect for me dichotomises your above statement, I'm off to Uni in about a years time mate. Guess I must be a child prodigy

 

[arv993]

Your incorrect judgement and lack of respect for me dichotomises your above statement, I'm off to Uni in about a years time mate. Guess I must be a child prodigy

so ur mental capability is still that low, cuz ur statement makes u seem that way. I'm sure any educated person knows the difference between respect for another's opinion and being right. respect for one's opinon does not automatically mean the person who is being respected is right. see the difference. i could give u an example if this concept is still beyond you.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

so ur mental capability is still that low, cuz ur statement makes u seem that way. I'm sure any educated person knows the difference between respect for another's opinion and being right. respect for one's opinon does not automatically mean the person who is being respected is right. see the difference. i could give u an example if this concept is still beyond you.

My mental capability is low even though I can use grammar correctly? At least I'm not writing in monosyllabic 'txt spk' fashion 90% of the time. This disproves any personal accusations you're attempting to make. Why do you have to make this personal? That's hardly showing respect on your own behalf! So in short, practice what you preach

 

[KingHashirama]

No, Urouge is not credible. What part of seeing one Strawhat one time makes him credible about how they work?

That doesn't disprove any part of my post. Some things being said being true does not mean all things said are true, or are you trying to say that Luffy really is an 8-foot-tall dead pirate?

Yeah, I just explained why bounties aren't credible. If you wanna talk about bounties, then in your response counter what I've said about why they can't be used, don't just say "Bounties can be used" again.

Doesn't matter, it still shows that the WG's information can be unreliable, meaning that just because it came from the WG doesn't make it true(they haven't labelled him first mate btw, just in case you think they did).

So why are we mentioning how they work? Because how they work has nothing to do with Zoro being the first mate. Luffy is the captain yet probably the most useless next to zoro as far doing stuff goes. Is he not the captain? lol.

Ah , but the 8-foot tall has nothing to do with first mate. Just like "World's strongest man" has nothing to do with 8ft tall man. Rumor vs logical guess. Who is Kid's first mate Killer. Who is Roger's first mate? Rayleigh.. Of course you'll deny them with the same old thing about "where is it in the manga".BUT if we talk about solely where it is in the manga then we can bring up alot of things that would make even the captain into simply one of the crew members.

1 issue you never used the bounties i mentioned or the famous bounties in the manga to counter my point. You used bounties done by confusion and also used for comedy relief. And thus you claimed all bounties are bs. Which is simply insulting Oda's way of telling how strong someone is. Using examples like "chopper" and etc to prove bounties are false is kind of old now, and over used. Majority > few exceptions. What happens when Luffy/Zoro/Sanji get stronger? bounty goes up.

So can you show us Sanji being referred to as the first mate? no.. anywhere Sanji put Luffy's dream about his own? no.. Any moments when the relationship between luffy/sanji was emphasized like Zoro/Luffy's? no....


PS: Urouge still contains more credibility than fan's opinions, and holds a point in the manga which was only directed at Zoro and nobody else in their ship. Zoro and Luffy's reputation far exceeds everyone else's on the ship. Just like the Pirate king and the Dark King's.

 

[A v i]

You've basically admitted defeat

I don't quite get the logic behind your reasoning.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

I don't quite get the logic behind your reasoning.

You've never understood logic anyway

 

[A v i]

You've never understood logic anyway

Not my fault, I am not super smart like yourself to be able to find logic where it doesn't exist.

 

[24 12 11 to troll]

Not my fault, I am super smart like yourself to be able to find logic where it doesn't exist.

That doesn't read well...