Naruto and Sasuke vs Hashirama and Madara (scenarios)

[Zee U]

Let's say that Hashi and Madz get the same Rikudou powerups as Naruto and Sasuke. Hashirama gets half of Hagoromo's chakra, Rikudou Sage Mode (though not Bijuu related abilities since he doesn't have one) and the Yang seal. Madara obtains the other half, one Rinnegan and the Yin seal. Sasuke and Madara have a full Kurama for each to absorb chakra from, while both Hashirama and Naruto can replicate the latter's feat of absorbing the NE. The ancestors are in the same situation as their descendants: they aren't fully used to their new powers yet.

S1: Naruto vs Hashirama
S2: Naruto vs Madara
S3: Sasuke vs Hashirama
S4: Sasuke vs Madara
S5: Naruto, Sasuke vs Hashirama, Madara

Extra scenario: THE LAST Naruto and Sasuke replace their past selves in every scenario, how does this change the outcome of the matches?

 

[KidGamer65]

The outcomes will literally be the same as they would be for their pre Rikudo forms...not including Madara's since Kurama is useless.

S1: Hashirama beats him. Mid-high diff,

S2: Naruto beats him. Mid diff.

S3: Hashirama low diffs.

S4: Madara beats him. Mid diff.

S5: Hashirama and Madara win mid-high diff at best.

Naruto and Sasuke win all their battles; individually and together in the extra scenario.

 

[DemonicAvenger]

The outcomes will literally be the same as they would be for their pre Rikudo forms...not including Madara's since Kurama is useless.

S1: Hashirama beats him. Mid-high diff,

S2: Naruto beats him. Mid diff.

S3: Hashirama low diffs.

S4: Madara beats him. Mid diff.

S5: Hashirama and Madara win mid-high diff at best.

Naruto and Sasuke win all their battles; individually and together in the extra scenario.

You and I were stalemating a BM Naruto v Hashirama debate Lol Plus the buff gave Naruto extra abilities like Kurama avatar Bunshin. Naruto can ultilize the massive Nature Energy buff more efficiently as well since he has energy projection. Then he also would have gotten a bigger buff since he has the other Biju Chakra as well.

He also uses Fuuton with his higher level attacks, which removes any argument of Hashirama redirecting them like before

1.) Naruto takes this High-Diff

2.) Naruto takes it Mid-Diff

3.) Hashirama would roughly be on the same level as Naruto, So Low/Mid Diff win.

4.) Madara takes it Mid-Diff

5.) Madara and Hashirama take it Mid-Diff, Possibly High Diff

If Naruto isn't drained of his Rikudo Chakra in the extra scenario, then Naruto and Sasuke take all their battles with ease.

Rikudo Biju Sage Mode Naruto > Rikudo Sage Mode Hashirama >> Sharrinegan Madara >> Sharrinegan Sasuke​

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[KidGamer65]

You and I were stalemating a BM Naruto v Hashirama debate Lol Plus the buff gave Naruto extra abilities like Kurama avatar Bunshin. Naruto can ultilize the massive Nature Energy buff more efficiently as well since he has energy projection. Then he also would have gotten a bigger buff since he has the other Biju Chakra as well.​

The only, or rather main, issue was whether or not Hashirama can push back his Bijuu Dama. Something that isn't affected by him having Sage Mode or not. The Bijuu chakra doesn't give him any kind of noticeable buff. The only things that give Naruto a buff are his chakra from Hagoromo and Kurama.

I'll give you the energy projection and clones point.

He also uses Fuuton with his higher level attacks, which removes any argument of Hashirama redirecting them like before

But I did forget about this.

S1: Naruto wins. Mid diff.

S2: Naruto wins. Low-mid diff.

S3: Hashirama low diffs.

S4: Madara mid diffs.

S5: Naruto and Sasuke win mid diff at best.​

 

[DemonicAvenger]

The only, or rather main, issue was whether or not Hashirama can push back his Bijuu Dama. Something that isn't affected by him having Sage Mode or not. The Bijuu chakra doesn't give him any kind of noticeable buff. The only things that give Naruto a buff are his chakra from Hagoromo and Kurama.

I'll give you the energy projection and clones point.

The entire battle would eventually come down to Flash Bijudama vs Shinsuusenju, as both had ways of trumping everything else in the others arsenal.

I specifically remember you admitting everything else in Hashirama's arsenal would be countered, as I also admitted the same for Naruto. Keep in mind this was also BM Naruto.​

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[KidGamer65]

The entire battle would eventually come down to Flash Bijudama vs Shinsuusenju, as both had ways of trumping everything else in the others arsenal.

I specifically remember you admitting everything else in Hashirama's arsenal would be countered, as I also admitted the same for Naruto. Keep in mind this was also BM Naruto.​

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I know. That's why the only issue was whether or not Hashirama can redirect Flash Bijuu Dama. Because we had already agreed that everything else is a non factor when it comes to the conclusion of the fight.

 

[QdonEms]

S1-Hashirama is bijuu proof so he cant low diff naruto.
S2-Madara wins high diff
S3-Hashirama shits
S4-Madara gets cut in half.
S5-Hashirama and Madara wins

S6-Sasuke solos.

 

[DemonicAvenger]

I know. That's why the only issue was whether or not Hashirama can redirect Flash Bijuu Dama. Because we had already agreed that everything else is a non factor when it comes to the conclusion of the fight.

Ok, I was just wondering why you were calling it a Mid-Diff win. I don't mind you claiming Hashirama could beat him or even BSM Naruto, as I don't think there was really a way to prove which tech would have won in the end due to lack of feats. As the only individual strength feat that the Shinsuusenju hands got was something the likes of SM Naruto and the Yonbi were both able to replicate without much effort (Not so much SM Naruto but the Yonbi was tossing around the Hachibi, and Naruto's Kurama avatar was tossing Biju one handed, the Hachibi also ***** smacked the Gobi across a forest with one hand)​

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[KidGamer65]

Ok, I was just wondering why you were calling it a Mid-Diff win. I don't mind you claiming Hashirama could beat him or even BSM Naruto, as I don't think there was really a way to prove which tech would have won in the end due to lack of feats. As the only individual strength feat that the Shinsuusenju hands got was something the likes of SM Naruto and the Yonbi were both able to replicate without much effort (Not so much SM Naruto but the Yonbi was tossing around the Hachibi, and Naruto's Kurama avatar was tossing Biju one handed, the Hachibi also ***** smacked the Gobi across a forest with one hand)​

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I said mid-high diff, so in between mid and high, and it's because I think SS can redirect Flash BIjuu Dama.

Individual? Yeah, but Yonbi nor Naruto have a feat on that level. Yonbi lifted Gyuki up with both it's hand and then tossed him. SM Naruto simply suplexed Kurama. SS snatched Kurama up with one hand, and held it in that position so Mokujin could put it to sleep. Tossing, or rather hitting something and lifting something are two different actions that require different amounts of strength. And even then, that's only one of the thousand hands.

Then there's the fact that it easily lifted Full Kurama who dwarfs Hachibi, Half Kurama, and anything Naruto or Yonbi have ever lifted.

 

[DemonicAvenger]

I said mid-high diff, so in between mid and high, and it's because I think SS can redirect Flash BIjuu Dama.

How is it Mid-High if he has to use his absolute strongest tech to win? If at all. I consider it a High-Extreme Diff either way. Whoever won it would be at the same diff as VOTE Hashi vs Madz​

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Individual?

One hand lifted Kurama (iirc)​

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Yeah, but Yonbi nor Naruto have a feat on that level. Yonbi lifted Gyuki up with both it's hand and then tossed him.

Much better than just lifting something. Coming from someone that did weight lifting for years from being in Track (Discus and Shotput)/Football.​

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SM Naruto simply suplexed Kurama. SS snatched Kurama up with one hand

I don't think Naruto's feats against Kurama are applicable. I think I had this discussion with you, I was referring when he hurled Pain's summon. Which is honestly a feat at least on par with lifting Kurama considering how far he launched the summon​

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and held it in that position so Mokujin could put it to sleep.

If your being lifted off the ground then there's really nothing you can do, you've lost your footing. Comes down to pure muscle strength on Kurama's part at that point. Which doesn't really affect the debate​

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Tossing, or rather hitting something and lifting something are two different actions that require different amounts of strength. And even then, that's only one of the thousand hands.

That's a given, but the former is much more impressive than just lifting something. (My one rep for a dead lift was 600 lbs, but I can only throw a 12 lbs shotput 45 ft.)​

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Then there's the fact that it easily lifted Full Kurama who dwarfs Hachibi, Half Kurama, and anything Naruto or Yonbi have ever lifted.

Also, given. Though only lifted, the all the feats I were talking involved actually hurling that weight somewhere. My whole point is that even Full Kurama doesn't weight anywhere near as much as a normal Bijudama, and said Bijudama is nowhere near the size of Flash. Which I could honestly find out how much more it would weigh than a normal Bijudama through calcs, but don't really have the resources to do so atm.​

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[UchihasRightfulHeir]

S1 Hashirama
S2 Naruto
S3 Hashirama
S4 Sasuke
S5 Sasuke, Naruto

Hashirama wins all his battles. Clearly. Madara not so much. Juubi jin madara pretty much had both halves of hagaromo chakra + juubi chakra. So halving that, doesn't look so good for him.

 

[KidGamer65]

How is it Mid-High if he has to use his absolute strongest tech to win? If at all. I consider it a High-Extreme Diff either way. Whoever won it would be at the same diff as VOTE Hashi vs Madz​

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He won't be anywhere near the same condition he was in when he beat Madara, so it's not the same difficulty. Using your strongest tech doesn't automatically mean that you had extreme difficulty in beating them.

One hand lifted Kurama (iirc)​

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Yeah.

Much better than just lifting something. Coming from someone that did weight lifting for years from being in Track (Discus and Shotput)/Football.​

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Well yeah, the tossing part is better.

I don't think Naruto's feats against Kurama are applicable. I think I had this discussion with you, I was referring when he hurled Pain's summon. Which is honestly a feat at least on par with lifting Kurama considering how far he launched the summon​

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Oh, lmao. Then that's even worse since Kurama's body alone is as big as the summon let alone the rest of it's tails.

If your being lifted off the ground then there's really nothing you can do, you've lost your footing. Comes down to pure muscle strength on Kurama's part at that point. Which doesn't really affect the debate​

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That's a given, but the former is much more impressive than just lifting something. (My one rep for a dead lift was 600 lbs, but I can only throw a 12 lbs shotput 45 ft.)​

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Tossing? Yeah. Hitting? Not sure.

Also, given. Though only lifted, the all the feats I were talking involved actually hurling that weight somewhere. My whole point is that even Full Kurama doesn't weight anywhere near as much as a normal Bijudama, and said Bijudama is nowhere near the size of Flash. Which I could honestly find out how much more it would weigh than a normal Bijudama through calcs, but don't really have the resources to do so atm.​

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[/QUOTE]

If you ever get around to that, you should show me.

 

[ARGUS]

S1: Naruto vs Hashirama

could go either way, Hashirama more times than not

S2: Naruto vs Madara

Naruto wins mid diff

S3: Sasuke vs Hashirama

Hashirama wrecks him

S4: Sasuke vs Madara

Madara wins low/mid diff

S5: Naruto, Sasuke vs Hashirama, Madara

madara and hashirama win mid diff

Extra scenario: THE LAST Naruto and Sasuke replace their past selves in every scenario, how does this change the outcome of the matches?

Naruto and Sasuke can win

 

[DemonicAvenger]

He won't be anywhere near the same condition he was in when he beat Madara, so it's not the same difficulty. Using your strongest tech doesn't automatically mean that you had extreme difficulty in beating them.

High Diff = Had to go all out. Extreme Diff = Edge of Death/Complete exhaustion. If the only thing Hashirama has that can beat Naruto is his absolute best then Mid-Diff is out of the question. Even being between it.

That's why you'll see me saying that Edo Madara is a Mid-High Diff win for Naruto but Hashirama is a High-Extreme Diff win. Despite the fact that Hashirama is much stronger than Edo Madara.​

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Oh, lmao. Then that's even worse since Kurama's body alone is as big as the summon let alone the rest of it's tails.

Cant be to bad since the weight + force of all Nine Biju overlapping their tails was just enough to destroy a standing Complete Susano'O made of K-mart quality Rikudo Chakra (Just going by whats been shown, Madara's chakra potency was definitely stronger than his EMS/Edo's forms but not by much. Granted it would get better as he got both eyes back, but looking at Obito and Nagato, it wouldn't have too great.)​

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Tossing? Yeah. Hitting? Not sure.

Not 100 on this, but im pretty sure that striking something a long distance is even better than tossing something a long distance. Either way if far outstrips simply lifting.​

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If you ever get around to that, you should show me.

Not sure if I will, but it would come down to finding the volume of a standard Bijudama (would probably use full Kurama's considering that's the one that Hashirama redirected) then find the volume of Flash and divide FB's volume by the standard one.

And whatever number you get is how many times more FB weighs than the standard. Though there's other things to consider, the momentum on FB exceeds that of the standard many times. That's why I don't think we'll ever have a definitive conclusion to SS vs FB​

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