[VS] Tsunade vs Ay

KidGamer65

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That statement wasn't even aimed at you so I'm not sure why you're still responding to that.


What exactly are you talking about?

Lol. Read my post.

50 m starting distance means that Tsunade can summon Katsuyu before she gets blitzed. Once she's on top of Katsuyu, Ay will likely rush up to Tsunade's position but I see Katsuyu's sticky substance slowing Ay down as he climbs Katsuyu. Katsuyu also has the ability to absorb whoever is walking on her and Tsunade can transfer lethal medical ninjutsu into Ay via remote healing technique. Don't see how Ay wins let alone shits.

This is what I was responding to from the start. I never made any reply to the first part, hence my "Lol What?".

He fought the same way against Naruto, Minato, Madara and Obito.

Terrible examples as they don't prove that Ay is a rash fighter. Ay charging in with his speed doesn't mean he's a rash fighter nor does it mean he'll scale Katsuyu when in reality he doesn't need to. And he was pissed against Obito so I'm not sure why you are bringing that up.
Ay is all about using his full speed blindly which will be his downfall under my premise.
No, he's not. Literally no example where he wasn't bloodlusted shows this.

-He knew what he was doing against Minato, Minato was just better.
-He knew what he was doing against Naruto, and he was doing it pretty damn well until Naruto sped up.
-Madara? He did what he had to do, and he did right. He charged in for a combo attack with Mei.

How does this translate to him scaling up Katsuyu when he knows it can be potentially dangerous when nothing close to that happened any time he fought besides diving into Amaterasu?

Katsuyu's length and height has to be taken into factor which means Tsunade has around 30 m to react to a leap from Ay.

The best she'll do is block from 30m, which knocks her off Katsuyu.

Ay's best speed feat is blitzing Sasuke from point blank range. Sasuke is faster and has better reactions than Tsunade but not to the extent that what caught Sasuke off guard from point blank range will catch Tsunade off guard from 30 m.

He outright blitzed Sasuke. Take a far slower person and increase the distance and she won't get blitzed, but she's not counter attacking. Madara is slower than Tobirama, who is slower than Minato, who is slower than Ay (Or on par according to DB) and he nigh blitzed SM Naruto from a good 10-15 meters away, and SM Naruto's reactions>MS Sasuke's>>Tsunade's. Deidara almost got blitzed by Hebi Sasuke at a similar distance. (10-15m)

She'll block, she won't counter attack. Counter attacking is even harder since she'll have to time her punch so that she doesn't swing too early or too late.

Also if base Raikage really does have , then that actually puts Tsunade on that level of reactions as well considering after coming out of lightspeed travel while injurred and without Byakogou.
He has reflexes (nerve transmission and something about synapses) as the DB states on par with Minato's. That doesn't automatically mean that their reaction speed is equal as reaction speed has to do with your actual movement speed too, at least in this scenario. Tsunade strikes faster than Ay as you noted, so despite having slower reflexes, she can match Ay's punch, which is slower than hers.

Even if she did have reflexes on par with Minato's, her actual movement speed is piss poor in comparison. Ay would've had Minato had it not been for Hiraishin. He'd wreck Tsunade in close range regardless.

Then there's always the chance that the VIZ was wrong, but I doubt it. Too clear to be called false.
 

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I was watching the anime of that part and they had Tsunade reflecting the fire with chakra.
[video]https://youtu.be/kjoJlI8HLmo?t=2390[/video]
I don't think it was her hand speed.
Well the chakra on her arms would have been for protection. Tsunade still had to physically move her arms to deflect them unless you think that just by putting chakra in your arms, the fireballs would have changed their momentum after hitting stationary arms.
 

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Well the chakra on her arms would have been for protection. Tsunade still had to physically move her arms to deflect them unless you think that just by putting chakra in your arms, the fireballs would have changed their momentum after hitting stationary arms.

It seems to me like a less advanced type of Hyuuga technique of repelling things with chakra from their bodies.
 

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Yeah I never thought of it like that but fire is not a solid thing which can be grasped and Tsunade did not just take the fireballs and have it burn her but she smacked them back. Her arms must have swung really fast to accomplish that.

Its very logical, just think about real fire, can you actually smack fire, no.

The thing is, you're not talking about real fire, you're talking about fire that is infused with Chakra. Chakra has a physical form (Example: ), as does fire infused with Chakra. (As seen when Sasuke's Goryuka smashed through the ground above it [ - ], as well as when Sasuke pinned Zetsu to a wall with .)

OT: Unless I'm missing something from the newer chapters (Which is entirely possible considering I quit reading well before the manga ended.) I don't see Tsunade or Katsuyu landing a hit on Ay. Whereas he only needs a single, clean hit to sever her head from her body, rendering the Byakugo useless.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think Katsuyu would fair too well when she's put up against Ay's Raiton techniques. Yes, she's durable against physical hits (Unaffected, even), but a being composed more than 80% out of water is most likely going to be fried the second she gets in touch with Ay's lightning.​
 

Icelerate

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Terrible examples as they don't prove that Ay is a rash fighter. Ay charging in with his speed doesn't mean he's a rash fighter nor does it mean he'll scale Katsuyu when in reality he doesn't need to. And he was pissed against Obito so I'm not sure why you are bringing that up.
Okay.
No, he's not. Literally no example where he wasn't bloodlusted shows this.

-He knew what he was doing against Minato, Minato was just better.
-He knew what he was doing against Naruto, and he was doing it pretty damn well until Naruto sped up.
-Madara? He did what he had to do, and he did right. He charged in for a combo attack with Mei.

How does this translate to him scaling up Katsuyu when he knows it can be potentially dangerous when nothing close to that happened any time he fought besides diving into Amaterasu?
Okay.

The best she'll do is block from 30m, which knocks her off Katsuyu.
Tsunade can put chakra in her feat to prevent herself from getting knocked off. Ay will be in midair so he'll be the one to end up getting knocked off Katsuyu.

He outright blitzed Sasuke. Take a far slower person and increase the distance and she won't get blitzed, but she's not counter attacking. Madara is slower than Tobirama, who is slower than Minato, who is slower than Ay (Or on par according to DB) and he nigh blitzed SM Naruto from a good 10-15 meters away, and SM Naruto's reactions>MS Sasuke's>>Tsunade's. Deidara almost got blitzed by Hebi Sasuke at a similar distance. (10-15m)
Ay blitzed Sasuke while he was suffering from amaterasu backlash and was holding up susanoo which was causing his body to ache yet that version of Sasuke is far faster than Tsunade? I guess this means that neither Sakura or Tsunade can dodge katon because Itachi ended up getting hit. That just means that Itachi in that moment was slower, not faster. Same holds here.

SM Naruto did not have intel on his speed, Tsunade does, big difference. Same with Deidara not having intel on Sasuke's speed. Not to mention Deidara had no problem leaping out of the way whereas punching is much easier.

Not to mention Raikage is going to be doing work against gravity, the other blitzes had the luxury of not having to go against gravity.

She'll block, she won't counter attack. Counter attacking is even harder since she'll have to time her punch so that she doesn't swing too early or too late.
Well Tsunade was able to time her punch rather easily up against a fast moving susanoo which was smashed by Raikage himself. Sakura was able to time her punch against Kaguya.

He has reflexes (nerve transmission and something about synapses) as the DB states on par with Minato's. That doesn't automatically mean that their reaction speed is equal as reaction speed has to do with your actual movement speed too, at least in this scenario. Tsunade strikes faster than Ay as you noted, so despite having slower reflexes, she can match Ay's punch, which is slower than hers.

Even if she did have reflexes on par with Minato's, her actual movement speed is piss poor in comparison. Ay would've had Minato had it not been for Hiraishin. He'd wreck Tsunade in close range regardless.

Then there's always the chance that the VIZ was wrong, but I doubt it. Too clear to be called false.
I can agree with your first point.

You contradict yourself. I proved Tsunade's striking speed is better than Minato's so if her reflexes were on par with Minato's, instead of throwing a kunai, she'd be able to counter Ay's strike with her own more powerful strike. Tsunade having poor movement speed is irrelevant.

My argument doesn't even revolve around that. Not to mention I didn't even say Tsunade definitely wins but I haven't heard a good argument that Ay wins let alone with low difficulty.

It seems to me like a less advanced type of Hyuuga technique of repelling things with chakra from their bodies.
Not really as the Hyuuga's chakra actually explodes outward. The chakra Tsunade had on her arm didn't expand outwards thus it carried no repulsive force.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think Katsuyu would fair too well when she's put up against Ay's Raiton techniques. Yes, she's durable against physical hits (Unaffected, even), but a being composed more than 80% out of water is most likely going to be fried the second she gets in touch with Ay's lightning.​
Tsunade and Katsuyu are connected so even if Katsuyu takes damage, Tsunade should be able to heal her own slug. Not to mention getting in contact with Katsuyu will result in Ay's demise as shown by my premise.
 
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KingHashirama

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That's a poor argument, It was not Raikage's job to counter madara's fire, hence he made no move.

Remember the whole reason Mei was important, because she can counter fire style and it's her job not Raikage's

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Actually it was all of their jobs to counter it.

You realize what you're saying? You're saying that Tsunade's striking speed is like FTG. You're saying that Tsunade can strike faster than Minato can teleport. I need proof regarding Tsunade striking as fast as Minato can teleport.

No smart one, I didn't say that. I said its superior to Ay's speed.

Tsunade striking as fast as Minato can teleport = her being able to dodge it. =].


Ooops, meant it her being able to hit him. Since i already stated many times she can't dodge him.
 
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KidGamer65

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Tsunade can put chakra in her feat to prevent herself from getting knocked off. Ay will be in midair so he'll be the one to end up getting knocked off Katsuyu.

We have no idea how effective that'd be against Ay's top speed punch. Pretty sure people have used chakra to plant their feet on the ground yet ended up losing their balance somehow....though even if this worked, he would hit her, and stop since she won't budge, so he wouldn't get knocked off.


Ay blitzed Sasuke while he was suffering from amaterasu backlash and was holding up susanoo which was causing his body to ache yet that version of Sasuke is far faster than Tsunade? I guess this means that neither Sakura or Tsunade can dodge katon because Itachi ended up getting hit. That just means that Itachi in that moment was slower, not faster. Same holds here.

He wasn't suffering from any backlash. He isn't Itachi. He was perfectly fine apart from his Susanoo draining his energy. The only time he feels backlash from using Amaterasu is when he uses it with a V2 Susanoo or higher. If he suffered backlash you would've seen it like you saw it with Itachi. Your comparison with Itachi is also flawed beyond belief considering Itachi had suffered backlash from Tsukuyomi being broken and spamming Amaterasu while he had a disease. Sasuke only had a Ribcage up for less than a minute before that. And it was one small flame. Itachi used two giant flames. Sasuke has no disease, so taking backlash from techs and giving them to Sasuke makes no sense, especially since Sasuke didn't exert as much stamina and chakra as Itachi.

So no. Sasuke's was no different. His overall speed is already on another level to hers w/o Sharingan, let alone MS Sasuke. The gap in speed is large as hell, and the gap in reaction speed is even larger.


SM Naruto did not have intel on his speed, Tsunade does, big difference. Same with Deidara not having intel on Sasuke's speed. Not to mention Deidara had no problem leaping out of the way whereas punching is much easier.

Intel on speed doesn't mean anything significant. At the end of the day, either you can or can't react. Getting used to it helps, but intel isn't going to change anything. Deidara leaped out of the way against Sasuke who is nowhere near Ay's level of speed so that doesn't even matter. Hell, he's not even as fast as V1 Ay's Shunshin in Base.

Not to mention Raikage is going to be doing work against gravity, the other blitzes had the luxury of not having to go against gravity.
That just means he'll come back down if he doesn't land when he should. He'll still accelerate as normal.

Well Tsunade was able to time her punch rather easily up against a fast moving susanoo which was smashed by Raikage himself. Sakura was able to time her punch against Kaguya.
Except there's no way to quantify how fast it was moving, and given that things hit by Ay haven't shown to move at extremely high speeds, especially speeds near Ay's own speed, we can forget about that. Lol @ the Sakura example considering Kaguya was moving nowhere near top speed. It seemed like she stopped when she saw Sakura coming too, but I could be wrong about that though.



I can agree with your first point.

You contradict yourself. I proved Tsunade's striking speed is better than Minato's so if her reflexes were on par with Minato's, instead of throwing a kunai, she'd be able to counter Ay's strike with her own more powerful strike. Tsunade having poor movement speed is irrelevant.

Since when does flicking a Kunai in the air require the same speed a punch does? Striking speed is just that, striking speed. Tsunade being able to punch faster than Minato doesn't mean that she'll be able to punch faster than he can flick his Kunai into the air. Two different movements.

My argument doesn't even revolve around that. Not to mention I didn't even say Tsunade definitely wins but I haven't heard a good argument that Ay wins let alone with low difficulty.


Ok then.
 

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The thing is, you're not talking about real fire, you're talking about fire that is infused with Chakra. Chakra has a physical form (Example: ), as does fire infused with Chakra. (As seen when Sasuke's Goryuka smashed through the ground above it [ - ], as well as when Sasuke pinned Zetsu to a wall with .)

OT: Unless I'm missing something from the newer chapters (Which is entirely possible considering I quit reading well before the manga ended.) I don't see Tsunade or Katsuyu landing a hit on Ay. Whereas he only needs a single, clean hit to sever her head from her body, rendering the Byakugo useless.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think Katsuyu would fair too well when she's put up against Ay's Raiton techniques. Yes, she's durable against physical hits (Unaffected, even), but a being composed more than 80% out of water is most likely going to be fried the second she gets in touch with Ay's lightning.​


Chakra is changed to fire. The fire dragons had a lot of force behind it, which is why it broke through the ceiling. Its the same as fuuton, you cant grasp wind in your hand, you cant hold it like a rock.

Sasuke used a susano arrow covered in enton.
 
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KingHashirama

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For God's sake dude...you need to react mentally in order to utilize FTG...give FTG to your beloved Tsunade & she still can't dodge a close range blitz from Ay simply because she lacks the reaction to utilize the Jutsu in time & Naruto was able to react physically as well.

Guys but what evidence Tsunade's striking speed is above Minato's/KCM Naruto's? Minato's striking speed was so fast that he blitzed V2 Ay & would've hit him if it wasn't for Killer Bee...I don't see Tsunade exceeding this.
Mentally react.. as i said, ANY KAGE TIER NINJA CAN REACT TO Ay, but only few can dodge him. THATS THE FREAKING MANGA. AY IS NOT A GOD ... AY IS NOT A JINCHURIKI of the juubi.. HES NEVER BEEN SUPERIOR TO ANY OF THE PAST KAGES WHO ARE SLOWER THAN HIM..... BECAUSE KAGE TEIR NINJAS CAN REACT to him. Minato would be sucking ass in reactions if he couldn't use FTG, while straight up looking at AY.

Minato HAD TO dodge.. if Minato tried to hit Ay straight he would've been f*cked. Minato's reactiosn aren't superior to his fellow kages. His speed is. Only his speed has been "hyped" over and over and over and over. Theres only 1 Kage that has a "reaction" hype thats Tsunade (and the 3rd Raikage i believe).

Minato hasn't blitzed anyone. Show me his striking speed. You won't be able to. You can only show his FTG pop up speed that he comes into a pose with.


If you think a Kage tier ninja can't react to Ay's blitz.. then you are not smart.. period. Can you show me any Kage tier ninja being blitzed by Ay? no. Because its impossible. However, some of yall think being able to react = being able to dodge.. no.
 

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No smart one, I didn't say that. I said its superior to Ay's speed.
You still don't get what you're saying.
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You're implying that if we put Tsunade in the same situation as Minato she would hit raikage before raikage's fist that's already in Tsunade's face would hit her.

Tsunade striking as fast as Minato can teleport = her being able to dodge it. =].
You just said the crown jewel of your dumbest statements
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And since when is striking=dodging? Do you even know the difference between those words?
 

KingHashirama

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You still don't get what you're saying.
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You're implying that if we put Tsunade in the same situation as Minato she would hit raikage before raikage's fist that's already in Tsunade's face would hit her.


You just said the crown jewel of your dumbest statements
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And since when is striking=dodging? Do you even know the difference between those words?
Yea, thats what i'm pretty much saying. Already showed you her striking speed is immensely fast. Faster than Ay's blitz striking speed.


oops meant her being able to hit him. Since i already stated many times she can't dodge him.


For f*cks sake Naruto with normal Eyes could Raikage coming at him (and i'm talking about before the "slow motion" begins.

[video=youtube;mNL1gfNUiqs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNL1gfNUiqs[/video]
 
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Very much enjoying Salt and KH's debate.

Learning a ton of new things between the two of you honestly lol
 

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Yea, thats what i'm pretty much saying. Already showed you her striking speed is immensely fast. Faster than Ay's blitz striking speed.


oops meant her being able to hit him. Since i already stated many times she can't dodge him.


For f*cks sake Naruto with normal Eyes could Raikage coming at him (and i'm talking about before the "slow motion" begins.

[video=youtube;mNL1gfNUiqs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNL1gfNUiqs[/video]
>says Naruto has normal eyes
>Completely ignores the fact that Naruto can sense malice in that mode

And why is Naruto here?

Edit: ^what I said is bullshit
But again Naruto could see him but if he hadn't his top foot speed he wouldn't have dodged him.
And for the 10th time, Tsunade's hand speed isn't as fast as Naruto's shunshin and Minato's ftg
 
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KingHashirama

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Very much enjoying Salt and KH's debate.

Learning a ton of new things between the two of you honestly lol

And I already learned a ton about you.. all you can do is simply stare at pictures, and not actually use your brain to connect characters and where they stand. Your arguments need 2 different feats, and say one is superior. You claim Ay can blitz Tsunade, yet show 0 times hes been able to blitz a Kage tier ninja.

And then you have the punch to which Madara couldn't do anything about:

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And then should i mention the fact out of Tsunade and Ay, Tsunade was the one holding her own as far physical battle goes?

>says Naruto has normal eyes
>Completely ignores the fact that Naruto can sense malice in that mode

And why is Naruto here?

Edit: ^what I said is bullshit
But again Naruto could see him but if he hadn't his top foot speed he wouldn't have dodged him.
And for the 10th time, Tsunade's hand speed isn't as fast as Naruto's shunshin and Minato's ftg
> Normal eyes = him staring at him

> He didn't sense malice from Ay, unless you can show me. He sensed it from only Zetsus from what i recall.

Naruto is here, because him and Tsunade both have normal eyes..


Nothing in Naruto-verse is fast as the "pop" of FTG. However, what do you mean its not fast enough? Her striking speed has been shown nearly blurred out at times. And thats only if she choses to strike. Since Ay will be charging up to blitz Tsunade, she can simply go into defense mode.
 
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Savage Predator

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And I already learned a ton about you.. all you can do is simply stare at pictures, and not actually use your brain to connect characters and where they stand. Your arguments need 2 different feats, and say one is superior. You claim Ay can blitz Tsunade, yet show 0 times hes been able to blitz a Kage tier ninja.

And then you have the punch to which Madara couldn't do anything about:

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And the fact that Ay was blitzing MS Sasuke.
And the fact that We don't know what was happening before that scan, as that scan was the one that transited the manga from Dan's talk with Choza to the fight. Also the fact that other kages wouldn't just sit there and let Tsunade engage in the fight alone. Madara previously pulled out his Susanoo when Tsunade attacked him. He could have done it again. Other kages for sure had played a part in it. Also the fact that the Madara she punched was just a clone.
 

KingHashirama

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And the fact that Ay was blitzing MS Sasuke.
And the fact that We don't know what was happening before that scan, as that scan was the one that transited the manga from Dan's talk with Choza to the fight. Also the fact that other kages wouldn't just sit there and let Tsunade engage in the fight alone. Madara previously pulled out his Susanoo when Tsunade attacked him. He could have done it again. Other kages for sure had played a part in it. Also the fact that the Madara she punched was just a clone.

Yet he failed at blitzing Sasuke. :hmm:

What part? This was a 1 vs 1 confrontation between Tsunade and Madara. Where Madara was backing up, and Tsunade going to punch him. He wasn't able to lift his hand or anything. Kages don't have shadow possession jutsu.

Kages standing on the branch:

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Tsunade punches:

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Kages are still on that branch in the back:

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Savage Predator

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Yet he failed at blitzing Sasuke. :hmm:
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What part? This was a 1 vs 1 confrontation between Tsunade and Madara. Where Madara was backing up, and Tsunade going to punch him. He wasn't able to lift his hand or anything. Kages don't have shadow possession jutsu.
the page that cut to Dan's conversation with Choza
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Literally next page
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And then you see kages being all over the place after Madara hit the ground

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Also the fact that that Madara was a mere clone.
 

KingHashirama

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the page that cut to Dan's conversation with Choza
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Literally next page
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And then you see kages being all over the place after Madara hit the ground

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Also the fact that that Madara was a mere clone.
Notice how Sasuke put amaterasu right after the Raikage appeared behind him


Can you show us where that wood clone was weak? lol. Cause you do know, the original and the clone can switch powers right? at anytime. And Madara isn't going to let himself be hit just so he can come out and say "hey i used a wood clone". lol.

And those scans go perfectly with what i said in the edited post. ^_^
 

Savage Predator

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Notice how Sasuke put amaterasu right after the Raikage appeared behind him
Did you miss Karin's explanation? Sasuke couldn't even see him given the fact that he put Amaterasu all aroud his Susanoo.
Can you show us where that wood clone was weak? lol. Cause you do know, the original and the clone can switch powers right? at anytime. And Madara isn't going to let himself be hit just so he can come out and say "hey i used a wood clone". lol.
Because Madara would treat a clone like his own actual body, or that he wasn't taking the kages seriously at the moment.

And those scans go perfectly with what i said in the edited post. ^_^
I guess Ohnoki was on Raikage's back and flying for the lols. Or the fact that Mei wasn't anywhere in sight
 
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And I already learned a ton about you.. all you can do is simply stare at pictures, and not actually use your brain to connect characters and where they stand.
The scan displaying Madara's katon holds no weight in proving she has superior reactions. Mei was the first to react (and using whatever shoddy logic was used earlier) which would support that Mei's reactions > all the other Kages which is laughable. This is what I was trying to display earlier.

You claim Ay can blitz Tsunade, yet show 0 times hes been able to blitz a Kage tier ninja.
Not quite sure where you are headed with this. Being a kage tier ninja doesn't mean you have top tiered stats in every category. Kage don't have some accepted medium to which all of their stats are magically raised.

And then you have the punch to which Madara couldn't do anything about
Relevance level = 0


Here I am reading, learning, and reevaluating, and you come out of nowhere quoting me. Discontinue conversation with me please, I am here observing. I don't want serious debates until I grow as a debater.
 
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