Bijuu Susano'o

KidGamer65

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I never said his reaction speed changed, I said his speed changed, and it did. Unless you're seriously suggesting that he used the same speed against V1 Ay. Had Naruto not gotten that new speed, V2 Ay would have hit him because he wouldn't have been able to react even if he saw Ay coming.
Then you've basically conceded my point since the bold is not my point.

Naruto used his top speed to react, that's why it's different. He didn't block, he blitzed.
Lol, what? I suggest you learn the difference between Naruto evading and Naruto reacting. You don't use your speed to react. You react to use your speed. Big difference. Whether or not he blocked is irrelevant. Whether or not he was Shunshin'ing at top speed before is irrelevant.

Note: React=/=Shunshin.

1. Did Naruto react to V1 Ay?

Yes.

2. Did Naruto react to V2 Ay?

Yes.

Unless you show me his reaction speed going up, you have no argument here.

What you're saying would apply if Naruto did was block like he did against Madara (When he revived). Naruto wasn't only blocking, he was attacking, which isn't just reaction speed. If someone is faster than you you can't fight back, even if you react by blocking, yet Naruto was counterattacking.
Whether or not it's just reaction speed isn't relevant as only the reaction speed part is important here. Whether or not he blocked or evaded doesn't matter.

He shouldn't be able to keep up if Sasuke truly did get faster.
You've yet to prove this.

His clones may be able to punch more, but they wouldn't be able to punch at the same rate as him, nor fly at the same speed and create attacks at the same speed. Sasuke should have easily just flown away to attack, but he couldn't and got caught in the blast.
Doesn't matter. Numbers compensate for speed. It's harder to block 3 punches that move the same speed, coming at you at different times and from different angles than it is to block 1 punch coming at you at the same speed from one direction.


Durability has no effect? Did you not see the Madara vs Gai fight? Sasuke could have gotten hit multiple times and just tanked it.
Does durability have any effect on the following:

The only way Bijuu Susanoo would be fast enough to seamlessly clash with all 3 at once and block their attacks, is if it got a speed boost.


No, it doesn't. Whether or not it helps in the overall fight isn't relevant to the point as we are talking about speed.

Blocking is nothing. This feat is better than what Sasuke did. and that was done when Sasuke was slower than Itachi.
All this shows is that Sasuke is more skilled at taijutsu.
Your link leads nowhere, and the quality of the feat in your opinion, once again, isn't relevant to me. Lol. Whether you think it was good or bad, that won't change the reason why he was able to do so. Skill doesn't increase your speed. It only makes your movements more fluent. Then there's the fact that Sasuke's Taijutsu isn't relevant when we are talking about Susanoo. Then there's the fact that despite this supposed greater skill his Susanoo should have, (Baseless) he matched Naruto when it was regular PS vs. Kurama Avatar.
 

LeSauce

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Then you've basically conceded my point since the bold is not my point.


Lol, what? I suggest you learn the difference between Naruto evading and Naruto reacting. You don't use your speed to react. You react to use your speed. Big difference. Whether or not he blocked is irrelevant. Whether or not he was Shunshin'ing at top speed before is irrelevant.

Note: React=/=Shunshin.

1. Did Naruto react to V1 Ay?

Yes.

2. Did Naruto react to V2 Ay?

Yes.

Unless you show me his reaction speed going up, you have no argument here.


Whether or not it's just reaction speed isn't relevant as only the reaction speed part is important here. Whether or not he blocked or evaded doesn't matter.


You've yet to prove this.


Doesn't matter. Numbers compensate for speed. It's harder to block 3 punches that move the same speed, coming at you at different times and from different angles than it is to block 1 punch coming at you at the same speed from one direction.



Does durability have any effect on the following:

The only way Bijuu Susanoo would be fast enough to seamlessly clash with all 3 at once and block their attacks, is if it got a speed boost.


No, it doesn't. Whether or not it helps in the overall fight isn't relevant to the point as we are talking about speed.



Your link leads nowhere, and the quality of the feat in your opinion, once again, isn't relevant to me. Lol. Whether you think it was good or bad, that won't change the reason why he was able to do so. Skill doesn't increase your speed. It only makes your movements more fluent. Then there's the fact that Sasuke's Taijutsu isn't relevant when we are talking about Susanoo. Then there's the fact that despite this supposed greater skill his Susanoo should have, (Baseless) he matched Naruto when it was regular PS vs. Kurama Avatar.
If I conceded I would say it.

Could he have seen him coming? Yes. That isn't reacting though.

Saying that Naruto reacted to V2 Ay without taking into account his increase in speed makes no sense and you continue to do so. Naruto used his Shunshin to move, otherwise he would have just seen it coming. That means that his shunshin, at that moment, was his reaction. Just like blocking would be a reaction against V1 Ay.

Are you seriously saying that Naruto was fighting using reaction speed only? He wasn't just blocking, he was attacking. You can't attack something faster than you and expect to hit them, nor can you keep up. If someone is faster than you and attacks you're going to get hit, or you're only choice is to block and get thrown back. Naruto had no trouble keeping up and he still kept on pushing Sasuke, enough to make him use Senbon and he still created TBB'S in that time. That is not being faster. Being faster would mean that Sasuke would be able to create the Senbon and launch them before Naruto could create his own weapon. Being faster would mean that Sasuke would move and Naruto would be left behind, unable to catch up. Neither of those things happen.

You're only argument showing that he's faster is Sasuke blocking 3 punches, which can easily be attributed to better movement.

Clones do not make up for speed. They don't grant the ability to move at the same pace as the faster opponent. They don't go after the opponent and proceed to have time to create a counter attack, and they don't increase the reaction time.

Are you seriously asking me to prove something obvious? How can you keep up with someone faster than you? It would defeat the whole purpose of being faster in the first place.

He doesn't have to be fast, he just has to know how to block them. Seriously, since when is moving your knee and arms simultaneously considered to be fast?
 

KidGamer65

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If I conceded I would say it
Your argument says it, whether you intent for it to or not. By bringing things not relevant to my point as a counter, and by stating this:

I never said his reaction speed changed,

You are essentially agreeing with my post. Naruto reacted to V1 and V2 Ay and his reaction speed never changed. It's really that simple.

Could he have seen him coming? Yes. That isn't reacting though.
Irrelevant cause he did react. On panel.

Saying that Naruto reacted to V2 Ay without taking into account his increase in speed makes no sense and you continue to do so.
Wrong. Naruto's reaction speed didn't change. Naruto's "increase" in speed only lets him move faster in response to Ay's attack. Does that mean he can't react? No. I suggest you learn how reaction speed and movement speed differ. You react mentally, and that reaction lets you carry out a physical reaction, whether or not you evade completely or just block. Now:

Did Naruto react to V1 Ay? Yes, he did. It's a fact.

Did Naruto react to V2 Ay? Yes, he did. It's a fact. Whether or not he used Shunshin is irrelevant as he still reacted, as his reaction speed, which did not change, was fast enough to let him do so.

Naruto used his Shunshin to move, otherwise he would have just seen it coming.
Irrelevant. Read above.

That means that his shunshin, at that moment, was his reaction. Just like blocking would be a reaction against V1 Ay.
Irrelevant again. Read above.


Are you seriously saying that Naruto was fighting using reaction speed only? He wasn't just blocking, he was attacking.
Reactions apply to EVERYTHING. Not just defending.

You can't attack something faster than you and expect to hit them, nor can you keep up.
If you gang up on them with numbers, yes, you can.

If someone is faster than you and attacks you're going to get hit, or you're only choice is to block and get thrown back.
True, but not relevant.

Naruto had no trouble keeping up and he still kept on pushing Sasuke,
Naruto and his clones? Lol. Point irrelevant.


enough to make him use Senbon and he still created TBB'S in that time.
Naruto and his clones? Once again, point irrelevant. Your point only stands if you can show me Naruto doing this on his own.

That is not being faster. Being faster would mean that Sasuke would be able to create the Senbon and launch them before Naruto could create his own weapon. Being faster would mean that Sasuke would move and Naruto would be left behind, unable to catch up. Neither of those things happen.
I suggest you:

1. Start using common sense.

2. Stop with the gaps in your logic.

3. Read the Manga.

Sasuke fired his attack before Naruto did, meaning by your definition here...he is faster. Naruto being fast enough to react to that attack doesn't change the fact he isn't as fast as Sasuke was in firing the attack. Does a batter have to move their bat faster than the ball is moving to hit said ball? Nope as far as I can recall.

You're only argument showing that he's faster is Sasuke blocking 3 punches, which can easily be attributed to better movement.
Better movement? Lol. Please explain how anything you are saying here makes any bit of sense? It's called "Getting faster".

Clones do not make up for speed.
Yes they do.

They don't grant the ability to move at the same pace as the faster opponent.
Irrelevant as no one ever said they did.

They don't go after the opponent and proceed to have time to create a counter attack, and they don't increase the reaction time.
Irrelevant as no one ever said they did. Attacking from multiple angles at once makes up for not being fast enough to equally clash with your opponent. Instead of putting forth effort to block attacks that are equal with theirs, they'll be putting effort in to block attacks from multiple angles.

Are you seriously asking me to prove something obvious? How can you keep up with someone faster than you? It would defeat the whole purpose of being faster in the first place.
Lol...are you kidding me? Who in the world is talking about keeping up? You said that Naruto shouldn't be able to react if he is slower, even though being slower doesn't mean you can't react. Being slower only means you can't match them in speed and that is something no one ever claimed, nor is it relevant to this discussion.

He doesn't have to be fast, he just has to know how to block them. Seriously, since when is moving your knee and arms simultaneously considered to be fast?
I don't know how many nonsense excuses you are going to pull before you finally stop, but "Knowing how to do something" doesn't mean jack if you don't have the physical ability to do so. Everything you've said related to this point is hollow and empty. You are throwing vague words and phrases around ignoring the fact that they don't even begin to cover your argument.

If only that was the case.


There's this whole page of clashing you can't see.



Then there's this page, which shows him blocking them one after another, not at all at the same time. Lol. Please read before you make any kind of claim.
 

LeSauce

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Your argument says it, whether you intent for it to or not. By bringing things not relevant to my point as a counter, and by stating this:

I never said his reaction speed changed

You are essentially agreeing with my post. Naruto reacted to V1 and V2 Ay and his reaction speed never changed. It's really that simple.



Irrelevant cause he did react. On panel.


Wrong. Naruto's reaction speed didn't change. Naruto's "increase" in speed only lets him move faster in response to Ay's attack. Does that mean he can't react? No. I suggest you learn how reaction speed and movement speed differ. You react mentally, and that reaction lets you carry out a physical reaction, whether or not you evade completely or just block. Now:

Did Naruto react to V1 Ay? Yes, he did. It's a fact.

Did Naruto react to V2 Ay? Yes, he did. It's a fact. Whether or not he used Shunshin is irrelevant as he still reacted, as his reaction speed, which did not change, was fast enough to let him do so.


Irrelevant. Read above.


Irrelevant again. Read above.
The bold is the whole point. Naruto's physical speed increased, therefore his reaction speed increased. Naruto's body is what limits him, just as it was limiting him against V1 Ay, and that limit got smaller against V2 Ay. This is essentially what you're arguing concerning Susano'o. Susano'o's speed increased, therefore he was able to react better.

We know his speed increased because he was able to do something he wasn't before: blitz around Ay.

To say that reaction speed is separate from movement speed is wrong because reacting itself is movement.
So yes, I guess i'm saying his reaction speed increased.



Reactions apply to EVERYTHING. Not just defending.


If you gang up on them with numbers, yes, you can.



True, but not relevant.



Naruto and his clones? Lol. Point irrelevant.



Naruto and his clones? Once again, point irrelevant. Your point only stands if you can show me Naruto doing this on his own.



I suggest you:

1. Start using common sense.

2. Stop with the gaps in your logic.

3. Read the Manga.

Sasuke fired his attack before Naruto did, meaning by your definition here...he is faster. Naruto being fast enough to react to that attack doesn't change the fact he isn't as fast as Sasuke was in firing the attack. Does a batter have to move their bat faster than the ball is moving to hit said ball? Nope as far as I can recall.
Did the batter throw his bat and meet up with the ball mid air?

Did the batter have to create his own bat while the ball was thrown at him?

The bold contradicts what you're arguing with your bat analogy.

His clones don't give him the speed to move at the same speed Sasuke's moving. The clones move at the same speed Naruto would have moved. When I say keep up i'm talking about this:

Do you see Naruto being left behind? Do you see any clone being lacking behind Sasuke's new speed?

Better movement? Lol. Please explain how anything you are saying here makes any bit of sense? It's called "Getting faster".



Yes they do.


Irrelevant as no one ever said they did.


Irrelevant as no one ever said they did. Attacking from multiple angles at once makes up for not being fast enough to equally clash with your opponent. Instead of putting forth effort to block attacks that are equal with theirs, they'll be putting effort in to block attacks from multiple angles.



Lol...are you kidding me? Who in the world is talking about keeping up? You said that Naruto shouldn't be able to react if he is slower, even though being slower doesn't mean you can't react. Being slower only means you can't match them in speed and that is something no one ever claimed, nor is it relevant to this discussion.
Yeah, moving more efficiently. It takes no more speed to move your knee up than it does to move your arms to block. Whether done at the same time or not, it shows no increase in speed.

That only works when they're close. None of that explains how Naruto moved with Sasuke and kept up as they moved up. That doesn't explain how Naruto was able to have time to make 3 TBB's in the same time Sasuke made his Senbon.

I don't know how many nonsense excuses you are going to pull before you finally stop, but "Knowing how to do something" doesn't mean jack if you don't have the physical ability to do so. Everything you've said related to this point is hollow and empty. You are throwing vague words and phrases around ignoring the fact that they don't even begin to cover your argument.

If only that was the case.


There's this whole page of clashing you can't see.



Then there's this page, which shows him blocking them one after another, not at all at the same time. Lol. Please read before you make any kind of claim.
It's really not an excuse, that's what Sasuke did. Moving 3 limbs isn't going to slow down your movements, so how would that even translate to him not being able to do the same with regular PS?
Sasuke's fast enough to block one arm so if he himself used more limbs he would be able to block more.

I like how you keep using this feat when it's the exact same thing i'm using when arguing against KCM Naruto. You say that his speed increased because he was able to react to something he wasn't before, but when you talk about KCM naruto, reaction speed doesn't change.


He moved his arms and knee to block. So making it easier for him? I was going under the impression that you were saying all 3 attacked at that same time, but this just makes it way easier for him to block. They did attack at the same time btw.

That clashing proves that they're moving at the same speed too.
 
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