I'll agree about the first part, but the mist dispersing so quickly in that instance is something I'll get back to further below in this post.
I have to question the second part of this quote though. I don't think the clam produced any more mist after the SA infantry were caught within the genjutsu. When the clam was destroyed, we see that
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. Also, in that scan where Ōnoki hit the clam, we would have seen more gas being produced behind the old man if it was indeed producing more gas [
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]. Furthermore, there's no significant amount of time that the clam needs to produce the mist inside of its body and release it from its siphons. Any other iteration of Trollkage's clam producing mist was a mirage.
The clam probably stopped exuding the mist because Trollkage's killing intent wasn't maxed out (he was even trying to help the clueless SA punchingbags figure out how to break the genjutsu), and that it only produces a certain amount of mist to put the genjutsu in place for a certain amount of time. For example, in a drawn out battle, it would probably keep exuding mist to ensure that it can continually keep concealing itself. In a battle that would be a relatively short one in the Trollkage's favor, the clam will probably only exude as much mist as he needs. I assume that Gengetsu and the clam can passively communicate somehow so that he can control the amount of mist present on the battlefield at all times.
NarutoWiki said some crap about the clam having to constantly produce mist in order to maintain the genjutsu, but the technique's databook entry doesn't imply that in the slightest:
And from what we saw in canon, the genjutsu only needs the present mist to stay in play. The "having to keep exuding mist to maintain the genjutsu" bit from NW most likely refers to the chance that the mist could diffuse into other areas (away from the clam, for instance).
For the clam part, yeah, my bad. I didn't see the part where the Clam's di
cklets retreated back inside it, after Oonoki's first attack.
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, and afterwards it and the portion of the clam open for it aren't around. So yeah, my bad. It wasn't producing anything at that time. But that does open up an interesting thought pattern. Keeping itself open to pour the mist out makes the p
enis-like objects vulnerable to damage, the interior of it too. Meaning that a constant pouring of the mist does leave it open for less savory attacks, just something to keep in mind.
But we've both wasted time on this argument, It's not the meat of the battle.
The mist exuded by the clam is unlike any other mist or gas that we've seen in the manga. Firstly, it's a substance created using the Yin Release, not the Water Release. Secondly, the mist dissipates very quickly when we compare it to other types of mists [
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]-[
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] (center right panel). I have a hard time believing that the force of Ōnoki's rock fist would cause Mei's Acid of Hidden Mist to disperse so quickly, and it makes sense because those types of mists are thicker and more dense due to their suiton component.
I know that the databook's description of this technique mentions "water particle reflecting light membrane" or something that shouldn't be applicable to a manga like Naruto, but if that was the case, then wouldn't Mū's invisibility technique (which is confirmed to be suiton and uses water particles to reflect light) be rendered null by blowing away the particles around him?
Though, maybe I misunderstood something about Mū's technique.
Anyway, my point is that the mist works unlike any other mist we've seen in the manga, and despite its appearance, I believe that there's reason to suggest that the clam's mist/gas/whatever it is isn't a water based substance. Hence, it should have no problem appearing underwater. Then we also have the fact that the entity that exudes the mist is a marine creature... Though this last point is merely food for thought rather than one of my main points.
@The Bold: That's actually a really good question to ask. Maybe it's a constant manipulation over the particles, over the Trollkage's latent? It seems like he let's it go, free to work on its own instead of using it in a particular region or constantly working to maintain it. Food for thought, certainly.
For the rest of this, either directly supported by water molecules or Yin chakra, it's still a gas. No escaping that fact. IIRC, gases either dissolve in water or rise to the top (Like most volcanic vents in the bottom of the ocean,) either way it's not the best solution in an under water environment. Now, fortunately due to my earlier blind sightedness, we now know that the Shell must be open for the mist to escape. If, let's say, A thousand feeding sharks were to be around the shell, I find it hard to believe it'd be able to get the mist off, regardless. If it tries to produce the mist in the suiton, Kisame's more than capable of attacking it. I'm not sure how many cocks it has, two? Four? Still a rather unsavory thing to have happen, one or two being torn apart would be devastating. Especially considering how summons tend to disappear upon extreme damage. Sure, some cases support that they will continue to fight even after that (Like with the clumsy toad and Jiraiya,) but how much damage will the claim be able to endure? And honestly, without the Clam Kisame's need for the large suiton body is sort of small.
Apart from a possible Joki Boi surprise explosion (Unlikely that it'll be a surprise, as subterranian voyage can give the shark man a route to escape it,) he's capable of handling the Mizukage fairly well.
The thing is that, when it comes right down to it, chakra infused water is still just regular water. Kisame's WD and Baksuishōha aren't techniques where he has to constantly mould chakra to maintain the water itself (he only kneads chakra to maintain the WD's shape). Same principle with Kisame's regular water sharks; after he applies shape transformation to water to form the sharks, he's already fulfilled his purpose and doesn't have to knead chakra to maintain their shape. The only technique I can't see the Mizukage merging with is Dakōdan, since Kisame actually does have to knead chakra to maintain its course and it absorbs chakra. I also don't see him being able to take full control of the WD since Kisame is the one constantly kneading chakra to maintain its shape, but he can merge with the water itself and use a small part of it to transport himself.
Though, the suiton is solely present due to Kisame's chakra. That's the thing, he must constantly maintain it, and in this location, the shape as well lest it freely fall and disperse.
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. That kind of shows a relationship between the two, Kisame must constantly keep the suiton going with his chakra, otherwise it'd naturally disappear. The other techniques are debatable, the water prison certainly requires his constant attention to function. Perhaps not the suiton sharks.
There's no reason for Sasuke not to be able to manipulate Itachi's Amaterasu since it's not a technique that he's moulding chakra to maintain.
The main principle here is that when it comes to interacting with a foreign chakra source, there logically has to be some sort of opposing force at play for the interaction to be rendered null. For example, say Itachi had enton. He could probably counterbalance Sasuke's enton manipulation with his own. Kisame could probably counterbalance the Mizukage merging with his sharks by making them lose their shape. Chakra in and of itself isn't an opposing force unless if it's constantly kneaded by the user which means that it is in use, or if it's moulded into a chakra defense like Susano'o or Doton Domu. If we want a full fledged instance of this in the manga, I believe that there was a high possibility of Kakashi using some of Zabuza's water
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after they
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. Water used from a preexisting source does become chakra based water since the user has kneaded his/her own chakra onto it. Then we have the example or Ay applying raiton to Mei's suiton dragon [
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]. These would be two instances of an user adding and/or kneading chakra onto a foreign chakra source.
Both of those situations happened in a neutral pool of water, and with Kakashi finishing first on the larger suiton, the one that blew Zabuza away. Completely different from what we're discussing here. The principle with the raiton and suiton isn't exactly the same, either. As it's Ay inserting the raiton into the suiton, not trying to work off of it. The force of the suiton is carrying the raiton forward.
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. It's working in conjuncture with the jutsu, not off of it. The idea you're giving me is that the Mizukage will fuse with Kisame's chakra, essentially. Which just means what, he'd gain the shark mans chakra keeping the suiton afloat? Don't really see how that'd work, I feel like that would be a struggle to use someone elses chakra like that.
If you're right, let's say you are 100% and I am a jackass, just for this little portion. What's stopping Kisame from using Daikodan on the water inside of Joki Boi? As far as we know, the shape manipulation
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Following the same idea of what you're saying, no kneading going on inside of it. That would tear a hole in Joki Boi, let out the steam, and likely end the technique there. So that's my ass saver, that scenario if I am wrong entirely.
To trap JB in a water prison would require it to be restrained somehow, and given its speed coupled with the
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, I don't think it'll get caught in such a way. I agree that the Trollkage needs to be very careful in manipulating its movements, but I could make a case that if he were to notice the Samehada's spikes (in a matchup with no/manga intel), or just take into account that giant swords can't be good news for something with a balloon type structure, he would make Jōki Bōi exert itself first and then explode near Kisame rather than attacking him directly due to the risk of the clone getting shreded. Of course, this would only be in a scenario where Kisame doesn't escape underwater or use the WD.
If Joki Boi were to come near Kisame from the surface or if they were near the surface, that'd be enough. Water Prison itself can trap the victim, but ignore this. Joki Boi's too fast for it, it's just an alternative possibility that'll likely never happen. But no, what we need to look at is the rest of what you've said. If it were to come near Samehada, close to eruption, I believe the explosion itself would be thwarted. Why, you may ask?
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The oil'll go first, then the water left in it. Making an opening for the steam or water to come from. Attempts to rebuild the body'll only be absorbed, seeing how quickly it can feed. Coming close to Kisame near the time to explode could be devastating, and if Kisame's underwater, he'll be able to bridge the gap to consume the chakra greedily.
There is a danger to it, if Kisame mistimes it. But again, another Bakusui Shōha is large enough and has enough force to throw back Joki Boi in these desperate times, and if Mizu Bunshin are up, they're an option to cast as Kisame makes a get away (Admittedly on a smaller scale, but the job will be accomplished to some extent). Daikodan, if Kisame has enough time, sure. But let;s save that as an absolute last resort, that and fusion.
Even from what Zetsu Kisame showed, I doubt he can form Daikōdan faster than Jōki Bōi can close up on him unless they are underwater, and we've seen that Jōki Bōi does not lose its speed even if it has grown larger [
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]-[
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]. I'll agree with the rest.
Eh, agreed. Won't try to argue this, if Joki Boi's right up on Kisame's ass, his best option is to attack it with Samehada.
Well this depends on who is right here regarding the Trollkage's ability to merge with Kisame's water. Hydrification takes very little to no effort for Hōzukis, and we've even seen Gengetsu liquefy himself whilst being significantly weakened.
If I prove to be right, then we also have the fact that Gengetsu can just escape out of all of Kisame's large scale suiton techniques and force the latter to come fight him above water or away from a water source, where I think the Trollkage has the advantage.
Is the bolded a reference to...?
If you're right, I'll be hard pressed to continue. I'd honestly have to think over the match a bit harder, but off of my initial impression, I think Kisame can still win. A talk for another time, however.
