SM Jiraiya vs Itach;iThis will be my final thread before I retire and become inactive

[TheAncientCenturion]

Kisame's the real winner, at the end of the day.

 

[TRE MERCER]

I've actually been on this site for much longer than you have if you bothered reading the OP, so nope.​

So im supposed to be impressed?​

 

[Red Slayer]

TheEvilOne?


Itachi Wins IMO

 

[Beans2]

Kisame's the real winner, at the end of the day.

Either 1 beats him you fodder centurion frog genjutsu negs and susanoo arrow gg

 

[Nattana]

Orochimaru solos both simultaneously.

 

[Icelerate]

Are you Byakusharinnegan?

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[Mugen Onsa]

Are you Byakusharinnegan?

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Nah 10chars

 

[TRE MERCER]

Nah 10chars

Aint nobody got time to be playing Pika boo with you and your real acc.​

 

[Forbidden Technique]

It's a real shame we've never seen an unrestricted Itachi fight seriously with the intent to kill. So many can't even see his full potential. He's so overlooked now without his real core compotent fans not actively defending him.

Itachi wins imo, might be interested in debating this.

 

[Mugen Onsa]

It's a real shame we've never seen an unrestricted Itachi fight seriously with the intent to kill. So many can't even see his full potential. He's so overlooked now without his real core compotent fans not actively defending him.

Itachi wins imo, might be interested in debating this.

Well since nobody is taking this thread seriously, I'll put up an argument for Jiraiya.

Amaterasu

DB4 confirms Jiraiya has frog kata so that would mean he has Sage sensing as well. Even if he doesn't, Ma and Pa are sensors (

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). When he

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, Jiraiya knows Amaterasu is coming. Then he shunshins out of Itachi's line of sight

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Method 2: When Jiraiya senses Amaterasu, he covers himself with

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and shoots off the burned parts of his hair with

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.

Method 3: When Ma senses Amaterasu, she spits out her

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to block Itachi's line of sight, therefore he won't know Jiraiya's location or where to aim Amaterasu.

Method 4: When Jiraya senses Amaterasu, he makes a kage bunshin right in front of him so that Amaterasu hits the clone instead of himself. Or he makes several clones and Itachi won't know which to nail with Amaterasu.

Tsukuyomi

Ordinary genjutsu is not a problem since Ma or Pa

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the instant he gets put under one. They would

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so they'd know Jiraiya was under genjutsu the instant he was caught.

Tsukuyomi's the only genjutsu that Jiraiya can't afford to get caught in, but I don't think Jiraiya's getting caught in that either. With sensing abilities like his, he can fight while avoiding eye contact. He either battles while looking at Itachi's body and feet, or he blocks Itachi's line of sight to prevent eye contact, or he continuously provides distractions so Itachi is looking somewhere else when Jiraiya looks into Itachi's eyes (direct eye-to-eye contact is needed for Tsukuyomi to be executed).

Looking at his body and feet: this isn't as hard of a method as it might sound since multiple people have combated a sharingan user this way

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. SM Jiraiya, who has five ways of sensing Itachi (SM sensing, Ma's SM sensing, Pa's SM sensing, Jiraiya's sensing barrier, and Shima's tongue) can compensate for a limited field of vision by fighting using his senses.

Breaking Itachi's line of sight: This is achieved through the use of smoke bombs (

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) or Shima's dust cloud. Either one breaks any possibility of eye contact between them.

Providing distractions: Jiraiya achieves this through the use of shadow clones or

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. If he has multiple clones on the field, Itachi can only look at one clone at a time. If Itachi makes eye contact and

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, the real Jiraiya or other clones can attack. Not to mention, it's unlikely that Itachi will attempt genjutsu with multiple clones on the battlefield, much less would he try attempting Tsukuyomi. The issue of Jiraiya's clones not having Ma and Pa on their shoulders (so Itachi would know the real Jiraiya) is solved by having those clones use a simple

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.

Itachi's Clones

Clone feints aren't helping Itachi here against three sensors. Fukusaku and Shima can deal with clones if they try to attack, and Jiraiya can simply mow down clones with rapid fire needles Kebari senbon.

Itachi's Katon

Is not a factor because Jiraiya's on a different league with katon. His senjutsu enhanced Katon: Endan (

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) can easily be used to counter Itachi's katon attacks, not to mention Shima also has katon (

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), and Jiraiya unlike Itachi has feats of his

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as well. Jiraiya or Gamabunta can also spit oil from their mouths to increase the flames' firepower, and Pa can enhance them with fuuton. Goemon or Toad Oil Flame Bullet far surpasses any of Itachi's katon attacks.

Susanoo

Susanoo is the real problem since it acts as both a strong defense for Itachi as well as a powerful offense. But Jiraiya has ways to deal with it as well. Jiraiya's strongest attack is his

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which contains enough force to obliterate a ribcage Susanoo and do significant damage to a Skeletal Susanoo. Due to Jiraiya's arsenal of attacks, Itachi will be forced to maintain Susanoo for most of the battle.

-Attacking with Kebari Senbon means Itachi has to use a ribcage
-Attacking with Goemon means Itachi has to use a ribcage or V2
-Attacking with Food Cart Destroyer means Itachi has to use V2 or V3
-Attacking with Chou Oodama Rasengan means Itachi has to use V2 at the very least, and V3 if he wants complete protection

Through the use of shadow clones or toads, Jiraiya can consistently attack and force Itachi to maintain Susanoo. Maintaining Susanoo has a lot of downsides for Itachi as well:

-He can't use Tsukuyomi while using any Susanoo
-He can't use Amaterasu while maintaining any Susanoo

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-Using Susanoo drains Itachi of chakra and takes a toll on his stamina

So how exactly does Jiraiya avoid Susanoo's attacks? The answer is to stay out of range. Never in the manga has anyone used shunshin while maintaing Susanoo (correct me if I'm wrong on this.) That means that as long as Itachi has Susanoo activated, Jiraiya is significantly faster. If Itachi

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, he is left

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such as Goemon, Rasengan, Kebari Senbon, other katons, and Ma/Pa's tongues which can

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him,

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him, or

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.

Winning the Battle

Jiraiya has three ways he can win this battle:

1)

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. Simple enough, as we've already seen Mugen Onsa forced Itachi to

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which leaves him vulnerable to Jiraiya

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. This genjutsu does require some prep time from Ma and Pa, but Jiraiya can still defend himself against Itachi and counter his attacks through the ways that I described above.

2)

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followed by

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. Ma and Pa use Frog Call

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while Jiraiya simultaneously uses Yomi Numa which turns the ground below Itachi into a swamp. Because Itachi's paralyzed, he can't evade the swamp, nor can he weave hand seals to use katon in order to dry up the swamp below him. Amaterasu won't work either since if he ignites the swamp under him with black flames, he'll burn himself as well, nor can he turn his head to cast Amaterasu on the swamp below him. Itachi would sink into the swamp and drown - a process Jiraiya can accelerate by using

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to push Itachi's Susanoo into the ground. If Itachi doesn't use Susanoo, Jiraiya kills him from a distance while he's paralyzed.

3) Outlast. A stamina beast like Jiraiya can easily outlast Itachi who has mediocre chakra reserves and poor stamina. Because Jiraiya has so many attacks and can just pure ninjutsu spam, Itachi's forced to maintain Susanoo for most of the battle to protect himself from Jiraiya's onslaught. Forming and dispelling Susanoo wastes a lot of chakra and causes him to feel intense physical pain (

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). If Itachi uses shadow clones, they only divide his chakra in half, and using MS techniques puts a strain on his body. If Jiraiya just chooses to take it slow, Itachi eventually runs out of chakra and dies, or removes Susanoo and is killed.

Break this down.

Also, what do you think about that 3T Itachi vs. 3T Kakashi thread? That is if you saw and read it.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Break this down.

Also, what do you think about that 3T Itachi vs. 3T Kakashi thread? That is if you saw and read it.

That's way too much for me rn. Don't have the patience nor time for an extensive debate.

War-arc 3T Kakashi surpassed 3T Itachi based on manga feats. High-diff fight though.

 

[EliteKakashi]

It's a real shame we've never seen an unrestricted Itachi fight seriously with the intent to kill. So many can't even see his full potential. He's so overlooked now without his real core compotent fans not actively defending him.

Itachi wins imo, might be interested in debating this.

We can give it a go sometime if you want, restricting the instant game over techniques(Yata/Totsuka, Koto, Gama Rinsho..well, Gama Rinsho isn't so much instant, but you get what I mean). Manga intel seems fair, though maybe giving Itachi basic knowledge of the upgrades SM provides would balance it out some since Jiraiya has knowledge on Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, where as Itachi doesn't have all that much knowledge on Jiraiya.

I'm not too sure on the winner of this fight myself, so I'm not going in to it with any preconceived idea myself, so it'd be interesting to learn.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

We can give it a go sometime if you want, restricting the instant game over techniques(Yata/Totsuka, Koto, Gama Rinsho..well, Gama Rinsho isn't so much instant, but you get what I mean). Manga intel seems fair, though maybe giving Itachi basic knowledge of the upgrades SM provides would balance it out some since Jiraiya has knowledge on Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, where as Itachi doesn't have all that much knowledge on Jiraiya.

I'm not too sure on the winner of this fight myself, so I'm not going in to it with any preconceived idea myself, so it'd be interesting to learn.

A very respectable poster... I would gladly take you up on this debate, actually. Though, I think a full intel fight with no restrictions would make for the fairest terms to accurately gauge is who superior. I'm game for that.

Edit: No Koto, obviously.

 

[EliteKakashi]

A very respectable poster... I would gladly take you up on this debate, actually. Though, I think a full intel fight with no restrictions would make for the fairest terms to accurately gauge is who superior. I'm game for that.

Edit: No Koto, obviously.

No issues with full intel, though I see some issues with no restrictions.

I hate to go in to some potential debate tactics, but for the sake of discussing this issue, I think Itachi is clearly superior with no restrictions because of Totsuka/Yata. While I think most agree that Yata being unbreakable is mostly hyperbole, you do have both the manga and databook which say that, and Jiraiya's only real technique that has enough power/hype of it's own to surpass it is Gama Rinsho thanks to the sound. While Gama Rinsho doesn't take nearly as long to prep as some may think, it's slightly delay none the less offers Itachi an attempt to attack with Totsuka, which with full intel he's going to know to try and take Jiraiya or at least one of the two toad sages down before they synch their melody.

The speed of totsuka is shown to be near instant, and while full intel for Jiraiya may allow him to prep bunshin feints or other similar defenses, his need to use Gama Rinsho to win a fight against someone wielding the Yata Mirror would give away the fact that it's a bunshin.

The Totsuka/Yata combo in the hands of someone as intelligent as Itachi is hax near or on the level of "Kamui GG". I have a couple of arguments that could potentially be made to combat that combo(Shima summoning the toad army to fight Itachi while Gama Rinsho is prepped, but the issue here is it's not in character for Jiraiya or Fukasaku/Shima to just recklessly allow the inhabitants of Myoboku to get hurt/killed like that or Jiraiya simply bunshin feinting/stalling until Gama Rinsho succeeds), but neither one of those make for terribly fun debates. I also would entertain the possibility of yomi numa sinking Itachi's susanoo, but Yata has the hype to negate it.

So I would concede if you're wanting to make it an unrestricted fight, that in most scenarios, Itachi is the superior fighter. The other two scenarios requiring an out of character move from Jiraiya or simply stalling, if the battleground would allow for such tactics.

 

[Songbird Supreme]

summons are hardly took out even by Susanoo.

MS Genjutsu stated to be able to make the Kyuubi Itachi's pet easily deals with summons.

is took out by Gamayu Endan, and Itachi burns slowly.

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Or Itachi just defends himself either with Yata or Susano'o.

SM can helps him sense Itachi's speed and Rasengan do the work.

SM sensing didn't help much when one of the paths snuck up behind him and chopped his arm off.

 

[Songbird Supreme]

This has been debated countless times. Itachi wins. Difficulty varies.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

No issues with full intel, though I see some issues with no restrictions.

I hate to go in to some potential debate tactics, but for the sake of discussing this issue, I think Itachi is clearly superior with no restrictions because of Totsuka/Yata. While I think most agree that Yata being unbreakable is mostly hyperbole, you do have both the manga and databook which say that, and Jiraiya's only real technique that has enough power/hype of it's own to surpass it is Gama Rinsho thanks to the sound. While Gama Rinsho doesn't take nearly as long to prep as some may think, it's slightly delay none the less offers Itachi an attempt to attack with Totsuka, which with full intel he's going to know to try and take Jiraiya or at least one of the two toad sages down before they synch their melody.

The speed of totsuka is shown to be near instant, and while full intel for Jiraiya may allow him to prep bunshin feints or other similar defenses, his need to use Gama Rinsho to win a fight against someone wielding the Yata Mirror would give away the fact that it's a bunshin.

The Totsuka/Yata combo in the hands of someone as intelligent as Itachi is hax near or on the level of "Kamui GG". I have a couple of arguments that could potentially be made to combat that combo(Shima summoning the toad army to fight Itachi while Gama Rinsho is prepped, but the issue here is it's not in character for Jiraiya or Fukasaku/Shima to just recklessly allow the inhabitants of Myoboku to get hurt/killed like that or Jiraiya simply bunshin feinting/stalling until Gama Rinsho succeeds), but neither one of those make for terribly fun debates. I also would entertain the possibility of yomi numa sinking Itachi's susanoo, but Yata has the hype to negate it.

So I would concede if you're wanting to make it an unrestricted fight, that in most scenarios, Itachi is the superior fighter. The other two scenarios requiring an out of character move from Jiraiya or simply stalling, if the battleground would allow for such tactics.

Fair enough. As I previously said, most people really don't see Itachi's true potential because of the simple fact that we've never canonically seen him go all out with a killing intent while maintaining good health. I think it's no coincidence why Kishi opted in giving him a pacifist attitude with a terminal illness. He's truly too haxxed. I'm fine with restricting Tot/Yata, as long as Itachi's susano'o is equipped with a susano'o sword at the very least.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Interesting... I suppose a V3 Susano'o is more than enough to block Jiraiya's attacks. Anyways beans made a good post to counter Itachi's arsenal. I'm very interested to see this debate if you guys go through with it.

 

[Beans2]

Break this down.

Also, what do you think about that 3T Itachi vs. 3T Kakashi thread? That is if you saw and read it.

>Frog genjutsu gg
>Yomi numa gg
>Outlast gg

I haven't read the thread but in my opinion Kakashi wins.

Oh and @EK Icelerate already soloed me in a debate on this matchup.

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but I was a newbie back then and the condition was manga intel which works in itachi's favor.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Fair enough. As I previously said, most people really don't see Itachi's true potential because of the simple fact that we've never canonically seen him go all out with a killing intent while maintaining good health. I think it's no coincidence why Kishi opted in giving him a pacifist attitude with a terminal illness. He's truly too haxxed. I'm fine with restricting Tot/Yata, as long as Itachi's susano'o is equipped with a susano'o sword at the very least.

That would be fine.