KCSM Naruto vs KCM Minato

[Izanamı.]

Restriction: Summons
Location: Madara vs Gokage


who would win?​

 

[ARGUS]

KCSM Naruto should be able to win this more times than not

 

[KidGamer65]

Sage Mode boost gives Naruto the win. Just look at Base Naruto to SM Naruto. Same happens for KCM to KCSM.

 

[Xlad]

I still don't know if its The Last Naruto.

 

[Izanamı.]

I still don't know if its The Last Naruto.

no hypothetical manga KCM Naruto using SM on top​

 

[Gold Lightning]

no hypothetical manga KCM Naruto using SM on top​

Why not just say BSM Naruto and restrict kurama avatar

 

[Izanamı.]

Why not just say BSM Naruto and restrict kurama avatar

because BSM Naruto w/o Kurama avatar can use this state

You must be registered for see images

 

[Icelerate]

Sage Mode boost gives Naruto the win. Just look at Base Naruto to SM Naruto. Same happens for KCM to KCSM.

Your analogy fails because base Minato was superior to SM Naruto so IMO it is plausible for KCM Minato to be superior to KSCM Naruto.

I think Minato takes this with mid-high difficulty. His spacetime barriers from multiple clones can allow him to teleport away FRS right back at Naruto and his clones. Minato's superior speed allows gives him an edge in CQC skirmishes. Naruto has the advantage in durability but that is useless as Minato has the firepower to end him.

 

[DHOH]

Minato is practically featless. Naruto wins with little effort.

 

[Gold Lightning]

because BSM Naruto w/o Kurama avatar can use this state

You must be registered for see images

Yeah? That's BM without kurama avatar. What can that version of Naruto do that KCM can't?

 

[KidGamer65]

Your analogy fails because base Minato was superior to SM Naruto so IMO it is plausible for KCM Minato to be superior to KSCM Naruto.

If only that was an analogy to prove that Naruto wins. That was an analogy to show how strong Naruto would get. Your analogy doesn't even work. KCSM Naruto isn't SM Naruto plus KCM Naruto, so you can't apply the gap in power between Base Minato and SM Naruto to the gap in power between KCSM and KCM Naruto. Example:

Minato is a 4, and Naruto is a 2.

4 2

Apply the KCM boost. We'll say it's 4.

x4 x4

16 8

Naruto gets a Sage Mode boost. We'll say it's 2.

16 16

Not saying that these are the definite power levels, just showing that saying Minato>SM Naruto as evidence that KCM Minato>KCSM Naruto doesn't work. SM is a multiplier.

I think Minato takes this with mid-high difficulty. His spacetime barriers from multiple clones can allow him to teleport away FRS right back at Naruto and his clones. Minato's superior speed allows gives him an edge in CQC skirmishes. Naruto has the advantage in durability but that is useless as Minato has the firepower to end him.

If FRS is used as a melee weapon instead of just thrown, then the space time barrier strategy isn't going to work. Naruto can avoid it by attacking from any other direction. Minato might have superior speed. Sage Mode amps KCM Naruto's speed by the same factor it does to Base Naruto to SM Naruto's speed and reactions. If Naruto is behind, he'll still be able to keep up and might even have the edge due to Sage Sensing (Acts as precog) and Frog Kata.

 

[KidGamer65]

Yeah? That's BM without kurama avatar. What can that version of Naruto do that KCM can't?

I don't know why this isn't obvious to people, but that form>>KCM. That form lets Naruto use one handed Rasengan, one Handed Mini Bijuu Dama, and multiple FRS. That form is a new cloak, meaning there is obviously some difference in power. Unless you want to argue it's weaker, it's stronger.

 

[Gold Lightning]

I don't know why this isn't obvious to people, but that form>>KCM. That form lets Naruto use one handed Rasengan, one Handed Mini Bijuu Dama, and multiple FRS. That form is a new cloak, meaning there is obviously some difference in power. Unless you want to argue it's weaker, it's stronger.

Of course it's slightly stronger, maybe a tad faster. But essentially KCM can still replicate everything that form can do. 1 handed rasengans? Naruto learned how to do it in base, so that's irrelevant.

It's pretty much just a slightly more convenient version of KCM. Only advantage is he doesn't need to make a clone for a mini tbb(but KCM can still use every technique that BM can). Without the kurama avatar, the difference between it and KCM is extremely minimal.

 

[KidGamer65]

Of course it's slightly stronger, maybe a tad faster. But essentially KCM can still replicate everything that form can do. 1 handed rasengans? Naruto learned how to do it in base, so that's irrelevant.

Slightly. New cloak. Better. When he first displayed his cloak, he got more speed hype despite him already showing off his top speed in KCM at it's peak against Ay. If he was the same, or just slightly better, the manga wouldn't have hyped him again, for the same exact feat. So it's more than just slightly faster.

At the time? No. Naruto couldn't make one handed Rasengan. So it's relevant. Doesn't change anything else I said though. KCM being able to use the same Ninjutsu doesn't matter. BM uses them better, meaning it's better.

It's pretty much just a slightly more convenient version of KCM.

Based on pretty much nothing.

Only advantage is he doesn't need to make a clone for a mini tbb(but KCM can still use every technique that BM can). Without the kurama avatar, the difference between it and KCM is extremely minimal.[/QUOTE]

It's not.

 

[DHOH]

The difference in forms are like comparing kiaoken to Super saiyn

 

[Brother Numpsay]

because BSM Naruto w/o Kurama avatar can use this state

You must be registered for see images

This "state" is no different. You already restricted Kurama support.

 

[Beans2]

I think Minato wins unless KCSM Naruto can react to FTG

 

[Gold Lightning]

Slightly. New cloak. Better. When he first displayed his cloak, he got more speed hype despite him already showing off his top speed in KCM at it's peak against Ay. If he was the same, or just slightly better, the manga wouldn't have hyped him again, for the same exact feat. So it's more than just slightly faster.

At the time? No. Naruto couldn't make one handed Rasengan. So it's relevant. Doesn't change anything else I said though. KCM being able to use the same Ninjutsu doesn't matter. BM uses them better, meaning it's better.


Based on pretty much nothing.

Only advantage is he doesn't need to make a clone for a mini tbb(but KCM can still use every technique that BM can). Without the kurama avatar, the difference between it and KCM is extremely minimal.

It's not.[/QUOTE]

The new cloak is just a design kishi made to probably represent something to do with him being the child of prophecy/Ashura incarnate. Because BM minato doesn't get a cloak change, his eyes just change. Doesn't mean he gets a complete new boost in BM (without avatar).

How did the manga hype his speed again? You mean guy and Kakashi? Because that was their first time seeing any Naruto speed feat, so of course they were gonna comment on it. Killer bee didn't say anything about his speed on that occasion, because he already witnessed it plenty while Naruto was in KCM.

And how is him being able to use the same moves that he can already do in KCM, such a huge boost now that he's in BM? It's a little change that makes mininal difference. KCM Naruto could instantly grow chakra arms to create his rasengans, so again, the difference of him just using his own single hand makes little to know difference. Having no need for a shadow clone for mini tbb is probably his biggest change, and all that does is save him probably 2 seconds max. Again, no big change. Both forms can use chakra arms and tails the same way, both can create rasengans without clone usage (including rasenshuriken), both can perform the mini tbb in seconds.

And what's funny is that every speed hype that Naruto got in both KCM and BM, whose name was it that was brought up each time? Cough cough yellow flash, fourth Hokage, sensei (Kakashi) cough cough.

 

[Ken Masters]

minato wins this

 

[Icelerate]

If only that was an analogy to prove that Naruto wins. That was an analogy to show how strong Naruto would get. Your analogy doesn't even work. KCSM Naruto isn't SM Naruto plus KCM Naruto, so you can't apply the gap in power between Base Minato and SM Naruto to the gap in power between KCSM and KCM Naruto. Example:

Minato is a 4, and Naruto is a 2.

4 2

Apply the KCM boost. We'll say it's 4.

x4 x4

16 8

Naruto gets a Sage Mode boost. We'll say it's 2.

16 16

Not saying that these are the definite power levels, just showing that saying Minato>SM Naruto as evidence that KCM Minato>KCSM Naruto doesn't work. SM is a multiplier.

Since we don't know definite power levels, I'll use the variable N to denote Naruto's speed in base to prove to you that no matter the multiplier, as long as base Minato is superior to SM Naruto and that the KCM boost is the same multiplier for the both of them, Minato in KCM will prove to be superior to KCSM Naruto when it comes to speed.

Let N denote base Naruto's speed. Let S denote SM's multiplier and let K denote KCM's multiplier. Therefore, KCSM Naruto's speed is KSN. Let M denote base Minato's speed which is superior to SM Naruto's. Therefore KCM Minato's speed is going to be KM. We know that M>SN, therefore, KM>KSN thus proving my point mathematically.

Now I'll prove that after the boosts, the gap between KCM Minato and KCSM Naruto will be even greater than the gap between base Minato and SM Naruto.

The gap between KCM Minato and KCSM Naruto = KCM Minato's speed - KCSM Naruto's speed =KM - KSN = K(M - SN)
The gap between base Minato and SM Naruto = base Minato's speed - SM Naruto's speed = M - SN

Therefore, the gap between KCM Minato and KCSM Naruto is greater than the gap between base Minato and SM Naruto by a factor of K.

If FRS is used as a melee weapon instead of just thrown, then the space time barrier strategy isn't going to work. Naruto can avoid it by attacking from any other direction. Minato might have superior speed. Sage Mode amps KCM Naruto's speed by the same factor it does to Base Naruto to SM Naruto's speed and reactions. If Naruto is behind, he'll still be able to keep up and might even have the edge due to Sage Sensing (Acts as precog) and Frog Kata.

I'm pretty sure Minato can easily avoid the FRS used as a melee weapon considering it took three tries for Naruto to tag the 3rd Raikage. Just because Naruto has sage sensing doesn't mean he'll have the edge because he had sage sensing against Madara but did not have the edge. On the other hand, base Minato is even faster and the gap between KCM Minato and KCSM Naruto is even higher than the gap between base Minato and SM Naruto which is even larger than the gap between base Madara and SM Naruto. Frog kata is something Minato can't predict but KCM cloak has great durability and Kurama chakra has shown great healing abilities so no physical blows will hinder him. Also once Naruto or his clones get tagged, that target is a goner considering how even Juubito had trouble reacting to FTG once he was tagged.

Furthermore, I believe that a KCM user can have more shadow clones at a given period of time in comparison to a KCSM user. This is because the KCSM user has to balance natural energy so they won't be able to spam as many clones much like how SM Naruto can't have as many clones out as base Naruto can.