DSM Kabuto vs KCM Naruto

[Brother Numpsay]

Never once stated or implied, it only requires skill and training to master. Susanoo not requiring training=/=Susanoo not requiring a lot of active concentration and maintenance.

But your implying FRS or chakra arms does not require active concentration and maintenance.

 

[KidGamer65]

But your implying FRS or chakra arms does not require active concentration and maintenance.

On the level of Susanoo? Nope. The only thing you could begin to make an argument for is FRS, and even then no great focus or concentration is needed to use the jutsu in Naruto's higher forms. He easily forms it and easily tosses it at his opponent. The spinning wind chakra keeps it active on it's own too.

Chakra Arms have never implied or shown to need any kind of active concentration or maintenance.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

On the level of Susanoo? Nope. The only thing you could begin to make an argument for is FRS, and even then no great focus or concentration is needed to use the jutsu in Naruto's higher forms. He easily forms it and easily tosses it at his opponent. The spinning wind chakra keeps it active on it's own too.

Chakra Arms have never implied or shown to need any kind of active concentration or maintenance.

Um yes on a higher level of Susanoo since to make Rasengan, Naruto needs to provide the chakra, while another support, wither clone or chakra arms, supports its by altering it with shape manipulation and the other with nature manipulation.

Susanoo requires nothing but to active and add more chakra for higher levels. Susanoo maintains is just as valid as Naruto going into BM.

White Rage will never let him concentrate enough to complete the process of making a Rasengan.

@Bold, since when it never implied? This is shape manipulation at its finest

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Naruto wins. It's clear that Kabuto<Naruto in speed and power. The only thing to question is specific jutsus. The intel restriction don't really hurt Naruto because he fought Kmimiaru, and was part of the mission that included the sound 5. It's highly unlikely that the team didn't tell each other about the abilities that their enemies have, and seeing them on sight would give Naruto a clue to what would be done.


White rage won't do anything other than to be a meager hindrance. Remember, it was the vibrations that caused Sasuke to be stunned. Naruto has a more durability than Sasuke. Although not SM level, he's demonstrated great durability.

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KCM enabled Naruto to block Ay's attacks with no damage despite his power feats, grabbed Roshi's arm despite being lava, and got hit by Han. Bear in mind, when using the same jutsu Han used, Naruto achieved "unrivaled physical strength." So he took a heavy kick head-on.


Now, white rage will, in fact, delay Naruto and hinder him, but it's not going to incapacitate him to the same level as Sasuke, who had an un-enhanced body. No reason to believe he can't simply do things like form chakra arms for basic defence. Even Itachi could do similar things to a certain degree. And no, being an edo doesn't give him added resistance EJ. Sorry to disappoint you, paralysis effects still occur for edos.

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Inorganic reanimation: Naruto could simply obliterate the cave walls when they close in.

Sound genjutsu: Naruto could easily close the distance between them, and Kabuto can't hide due to malice sensing. Even if he was caught in it, Kurama can help him. Kurama friendship isn't restricted.

Kabuto's liquid form. This doesn't make him invincible. In fact, there were cases where Kabuto clearly had to regerate even with the ability activated. It's not so much being unsolid as much as a better version of Orochimaru subsitution.

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It will be overwhelmed by ransenshuriken. Needless to say, Naruto wins.

 

[Benjamin King]

White Rage followed with Chakra Scalper ends it.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Had to address your points since you kinda called me out.

Naruto wins. It's clear that Kabuto<Naruto in speed and power. The only thing to question is specific jutsus. The intel restriction don't really hurt Naruto because he fought Kmimiaru, and was part of the mission that included the sound 5. It's highly unlikely that the team didn't tell each other about the abilities that their enemies have, and seeing them on sight would give Naruto a clue to what would be done.

Dealing with Naruto's speed isn't going to be a problem here. Has nothing he can do to win by blitzing. The only effective way is to actually have Rasengan/ninjutsu ready first. Naruto cannot blitz and create ninjutsu at the same speed. For that Kabuto can react. Also Kabuto's reaction > KCM. Naruto stated sensing faster in SM>KCM. By feats feats SM Naruto react to V1 speed 3rd Raikage, while Kabuto dodged Susano arrow (which moves in between the speed the Raikage's via V1 and V2). It is safe to say they are = in that department, and the fact that SM Naruto was able to progessivly tag Juubito (fastest of that time) means Kabuto will have no problem progressing to KCM speed.

You are also overestimating Naruto's intelligence also. Sure he can be clever, but when it comes to analyzing/counter, like fighting Nagato for the second time, demonstrates that even with intel he is clueless on what to do. Having intel doesn't mean he is going to properly counter Sound 5 jutsus.

White rage won't do anything other than to be a meager hindrance. Remember, it was the vibrations that caused Sasuke to be stunned. Naruto has a more durability than Sasuke. Although not SM level, he's demonstrated great durability.

Exactly it was vibration that cause damage. Durability has nothing to do with dealing with vibration, unless your stating vibration does external damage, then your point would make sense.

KCM enabled Naruto to block Ay's attacks with no damage despite his power feats, grabbed Roshi's arm despite being lava, and got hit by Han. Bear in mind, when using the same jutsu Han used, Naruto achieved "unrivaled physical strength." So he took a heavy kick head-on.

All of your examples are done by external process. KCM is not safe for internal process[

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So basically being resistant to external damage =/= being resistant to internal

Now, white rage will, in fact, delay Naruto and hinder him, but it's not going to incapacitate him to the same level as Sasuke, who had an un-enhanced body. No reason to believe he can't simply do things like form chakra arms for basic defence. Even Itachi could do similar things to a certain degree. And no, being an edo doesn't give him added resistance EJ. Sorry to disappoint you, paralysis effects still occur for edos.

Same as above. Um yes Edo does give resistance has Itachi can't feel his bones rattling. Madara for example was being electrocuted, and only showing numbness, dulling his movements. Alone with Sand holding him down. Not the same scenario to prove your point.

Inorganic reanimation: Naruto could simply obliterate the cave walls when they close in.

Possible, but it can also clog him to restrict movements, since it can come out unexpectedly. [

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Kabuto's liquid form. This doesn't make him invincible. In fact, there were cases where Kabuto clearly had to regerate even with the ability activated. It's not so much being unsolid as much as a better version of Orochimaru subsitution.

Not sure why this part matters. I dont think anyone stated Kabuto in invincible in liquid form. But he can render physical attacks useless but changing his insides into liquid molecules.

It will be overwhelmed by ransenshuriken. Needless to say, Naruto wins.

Fail to see how since the match will be over once white rage is set up. Yet alone if he activates Sakon KKG to mulitask all his sage arts.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Had to address your points since you kinda called me out.

True, albeit that was merely one point.

Dealing with Naruto's speed isn't going to be a problem here. Has nothing he can do to win by blitzing. The only effective way is to actually have Rasengan/ninjutsu ready first. Naruto cannot blitz and create ninjutsu at the same speed. For that Kabuto can react. Also Kabuto's reaction > KCM. Naruto stated sensing faster in SM>KCM. By feats feats SM Naruto react to V1 speed 3rd Raikage, while Kabuto dodged Susano arrow (which moves in between the speed the Raikage's via V1 and V2). It is safe to say they are = in that department, and the fact that SM Naruto was able to progessivly tag Juubito (fastest of that time) means Kabuto will have no problem progressing to KCM speed.

That's true, but at the same time, Naruto doesn't need to make a decisive blow to stop Kabuto's jutsus. He simply needs to close the distance. Chakra arms or even taijutsu will prevent Kabuto from using ninjutsu (since, you know, he'll need all the hands he can get for this). Not winning in a single move/=/incapability of delaying. You also have to take into consideration that SM Naruto specifically trained for a taijutsu style to hone his sensing while nothing of the sort is stated for Kabuto. Granted, Kabuto does have impressive reaction feats as you said, so he won't loose in taijutsu (not including chakra arms, which is a whole other ball game).

You are also overestimating Naruto's intelligence also. Sure he can be clever, but when it comes to analyzing/counter, like fighting Nagato for the second time, demonstrates that even with intel he is clueless on what to do. Having intel doesn't mean he is going to properly counter Sound 5 jutsus.

More or less true, but Kishi's portrayal of Naruto's intelligence is inconsistent at best, and absolutely random at worst. He can be practically a genius at analyzing at times, or an imbecile the next.

Exactly it was vibration that cause damage. Durability has nothing to do with dealing with vibration, unless your stating vibration does external damage, then your point would make sense.

Well, then you have to ask yourself what is the thing that's the problem? Is it the bones being grinded together? That can be countered by durability. Or is it organs or the brain? I think it's heavily implied to be the first, so durability would at least reduce the effects. I don't feel they'll go away entirely though. After all, Kabuto has to liquefy himself to make it not effect him.

All of your examples are done by external process. KCM is not safe for internal process[

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So basically being resistant to external damage =/= being resistant to internal

True, but what statement from the manga(or databook) references white rage to being internal organs and not muscle and bone?

Same as above. Um yes Edo does give resistance has Itachi can't feel his bones rattling. Madara for example was being electrocuted, and only showing numbness, dulling his movements. Alone with Sand holding him down. Not the same scenario to prove your point.

Then I'll clarify. The biology is the same. It's just a matter of feeling. If feeling where the true issue, Itachi would have never had an issue in the first place (but he did).

Possible, but it can also clog him to restrict movements, since it can come out unexpectedly. [

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A possibility, but ransengans don't exactly take long to make. Or chakra arms, as even susanoo could easily block those. Also, very poor choice of examples with the planet manipulation.

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Naruto fakes his hindrance, so that means he reacted to everything. Doesn't disqualify the argument, but it does disqualify the example.

Not sure why this part matters. I don't think anyone stated Kabuto in invincible in liquid form. But he can render physical attacks useless but changing his insides into liquid molecules.

I've come across people who did before.

Fail to see how since the match will be over once white rage is set up. Yet alone if he activates Sakon KKG to mulitask all his sage arts.

Conversely, Naruto has far greater multi task ability with shadow clones.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

True, albeit that was merely one point.

Thank you for being civilized in your rebuttal. Imma take a break after this post.

That's true, but at the same time, Naruto doesn't need to make a decisive blow to stop Kabuto's jutsus. He simply needs to close the distance. Chakra arms or even taijutsu will prevent Kabuto from using ninjutsu (since, you know, he'll need all the hands he can get for this). Not winning in a single move/=/incapability of delaying. You also have to take into consideration that SM Naruto specifically trained for a taijutsu style to hone his sensing while nothing of the sort is stated for Kabuto. Granted, Kabuto does have impressive reaction feats as you said, so he won't loose in taijutsu (not including chakra arms, which is a whole other ball game).

If Kabuto can make a single hand seal, then creating hands seals for the rest of the battle shouldn't be a problem. Since Den'ien'ei can do the rest for him.

More or less true, but Kishi's portrayal of Naruto's intelligence is inconsistent at best, and absolutely random at worst. He can be practically a genius at analyzing at times, or an imbecile the next.

When it comes to countering attacks, I haven't (or remember, if can you show thats cool) seen him actually make proper counters. He has Manga intel here which is far worst.

Well, then you have to ask yourself what is the thing that's the problem? Is it the bones being grinded together? That can be countered by durability. Or is it organs or the brain? I think it's heavily implied to be the first, so durability would at least reduce the effects. I don't feel they'll go away entirely though. After all, Kabuto has to liquefy himself to make it not effect him.

All of these questions lead to what the body does in the inside. Loud noises can give you a headache/make your head hurt. Anyways theres no need to be specific here since vibrations is just energy passing by. Theres nothing to tank here, per say.

True, but what statement from the manga(or databook) references white rage to being internal organs and not muscle and bone?

What statement is needed? muscle and bone are internal organs....

Then I'll clarify. The biology is the same. It's just a matter of feeling. If feeling where the true issue, Itachi would have never had an issue in the first place (but he did).

No one is denying that Edo aren't able to hear or see. So of course the attack would be notice as an Edo Tensei. But theres no way to properly determine that Edo doesn't make a difference, since there body functions aren't real but artificial then live. Which is why Sasuke description was different then Itachi's.

A possibility, but ransengans don't exactly take long to make. Or chakra arms, as even susanoo could easily block those. Also, very poor choice of examples with the planet manipulation.

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Muki is only good for defensive purpose. If it can buy time, then thats all Kabuto need to end it with the next attack.

Naruto fakes his hindrance, so that means he reacted to everything. Doesn't disqualify the argument, but it does disqualify the example.

Not sure how since Naruto has excellent sensing here. Scaling down to a lower jutsu (Kabuto's) and lower version of Naruto (no sense, only malice which is slower then SM sense) I find it quite the contrary that he will be able to predict its movements. Uchiha's option was to block, as their footing was disrupted too.

Conversely, Naruto has far greater multi task ability with shadow clones.

In cave, Kabuto is much more versatile cause of Den'ien'ei. Multi tasking like simultaneously using Muki Tensei and White Rage. Or Release 2 White Rages, etc is much more dangerous here.

 

[makosheva7]

Naruto couldn't do mini TBB in KCM.

OT: Kabuto mid diff.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

Naruto couldn't do mini TBB in KCM.

OT: Kabuto mid diff.

Although it's restricted in the fight, you're incorrect about that.

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[KidGamer65]

Um yes on a higher level of Susanoo since to make Rasengan, Naruto needs to provide the chakra, while another support, wither clone or chakra arms, supports its by altering it with shape manipulation and the other with nature manipulation.

Proves nothing about it's concentration or it's maintenance. Naruto only needs a clone and chakra arms to do it because his chakra control was shit w/o modes.

Susanoo requires nothing but to active and add more chakra for higher levels. Susanoo maintains is just as valid as Naruto going into BM.

Yeah, the user has to continuously maintain it. Completely different from normal jutsu. BM is irrelevant since Naruto doesn't need to actively maintain BM. It's a transformation.

White Rage will never let him concentrate enough to complete the process of making a Rasengan.

Based on what? Lol. Dropping a technique that the user has to consciously and continuously maintain?

@Bold, since when it never implied? This is shape manipulation at its finest

And where does it say that shape manipulation at it's finest requires high levels of concentration and focus? Where does it even say that chakra arms are the peak of shape manipulation? Lol.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Proves nothing about it's concentration or it's maintenance.

If it doesn't prove that then your saying Naruto doesn't need training for this to work. "

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Naruto only needs a clone and chakra arms to do it because his chakra control was shit w/o modes.

SM still needed clones for the process of creating FRS against Juubi. And last time in SM, was he threw a giant one against Edo Madara, with the same process of creating a FRS. So I have no idea what your talking about.

KCM, last time he threw a FRS was in team 7 reunion, which also required him to have extra limbs to create the Rasengan in the same process.

This is the Naruto you can use in your argument, so I have no idea what your tryna point out here.

Yeah, the user has to continuously maintain it. Completely different from normal jutsu. BM is irrelevant since Naruto doesn't need to actively maintain BM. It's a transformation.

So were just going to ignore how BM had a time limit. And when both Susanoo and Kurama got dropped by Juubito, they both needed to reactivate their modes.

Based on what? Lol. Dropping a technique that the user has to consciously and continuously maintain?

Yup, since he is going to feel like his head is about to explode, so I dont know what strong minded you think Naruto is, to consciously do this. Yet alone create a process to form a Rasengan.

Yet alone even think that Kabuto can't even react to it if he did the impossible under these conditions.

And where does it say that shape manipulation at it's finest requires high levels of concentration and focus? Where does it even say that chakra arms are the peak of shape manipulation? Lol.

Never made a claim that its at highest level or at its peak of shape manipulation (even though manga stated Rasengan is), nor do I care about levels of concentration since theres no such thing as "levels" of concentrations. It something you came up with to try to refute how White Rage wouldn't work on characters other then Sasuke. Unless you have a source that shows specific levels of concentration in the manga.

Can you disprove that chakra arm isn't shape manipulation? Then my point stands.

 

[KidGamer65]

If it doesn't prove that then your saying Naruto doesn't need training for this to work. "

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I'll give you the maintenance point because of the last scan, the rest is invalid. Still doesn't prove that maintaining Susanoo and maintaining FRS are anywhere near each other when it comes to difficulty.

But even then, it maintains itself after it's thrown, so....your point barely matters.

SM still needed clones for the process of creating FRS against Juubi. And last time in SM, was he threw a giant one against Edo Madara, with the same process of creating a FRS. So I have no idea what your talking about.



KCM, last time he threw a FRS was in team 7 reunion, which also required him to have extra limbs to create the Rasengan in the same process.

This is the Naruto you can use in your argument, so I have no idea what your tryna point out here.

The point is, chakra control is why he needs clones and chakra arms to make it, a point that clearly flew over your head. I suggest we read before we reply. Chakra control was his issue, not maintenance or focus so bringing this up fails to benefit your argument.

So were just going to ignore how BM had a time limit. And when both Susanoo and Kurama got dropped by Juubito, they both needed to reactivate their modes.

BM's time limit was explained. It's because Naruto and Kurama's link wasn't perfected, the rest is irrelevant. Naruto took so much damage that he reverted to base, doesn't prove that Susanoo=/=

Yup, since he is going to feel like his head is about to explode, so I dont know what strong minded you think Naruto is, to consciously do this. Yet alone create a process to form a Rasengan.

Once again, your claims have little proof. You've yet to claim that making Rasengan or FRS=Holding up Susanoo. You've yet to prove that making a chakra arm=Holding up Susanoo.

Yet alone even think that Kabuto can't even react to it if he did the impossible under these conditions.

lol, strawman much? I'd like you to show me where I said this. Not like it matters if he reacts or not. The battle is in a cave, when it explodes he gets caught in the AoE regardless.

Never made a claim that its at highest level or at its peak of shape manipulation (even though manga stated Rasengan is), nor do I care about levels of concentration since theres no such thing as "levels" of concentrations. It something you came up with to try to refute how White Rage wouldn't work on characters other then Sasuke. Unless you have a source that shows specific levels of concentration in the manga.

"Chakra Arm is shape manipulation at it's finest" Lol, either you don't know what the phrase implies, or you are outright lying about what you said.

Lol, different levels of concentration is something that applies in real life. It's literally common sense. Do you need to concentrate when it comes to test taking as much as you need to concentrate when you are walking a tight rope? Obviously not.

Can you disprove that chakra arm isn't shape manipulation? Then my point stands.

It being shape manipulation doesn't even begin to prove your point.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I'll give you the maintenance point because of the last scan, the rest is invalid. Still doesn't prove that maintaining Susanoo and maintaining FRS are anywhere near each other when it comes to difficulty.

But even then, it maintains itself after it's thrown, so....your point barely matters

Actually this proves that it takes maintenance to make FRS then it does to make Susanoo. While you have nothing that shows maintaining Susanoo is much more harder to control.

The point is, chakra control is why he needs clones and chakra arms to make it, a point that clearly flew over your head. I suggest we read before we reply. Chakra control was his issue, not maintenance or focus so bringing this up fails to benefit your argument.

It didn't fly over my head, since chakra control is what is needed to make any ninjutsu. And that goes for Susanoo too. And we know what happened when Sasuke try to activate Sussanoo.

BM's time limit was explained. It's because Naruto and Kurama's link wasn't perfected, the rest is irrelevant. Naruto took so much damage that he reverted to base, doesn't prove that Susanoo=/=

He revert back to SM only actually. It proves that both too the same amount of damage and both took the same amount of difficulty to put it back.

Once again, your claims have little proof. You've yet to claim that making Rasengan or FRS=Holding up Susanoo. You've yet to prove that making a chakra arm=Holding up Susanoo.

My "little" proof is much better then your zero proof of your claim "that its more difficult to maintain Susanoo then chakra arms and FRS" . I just need to prove that the FRS needs maintenance, therefore can't begin the process that it will even be complete.

lol, strawman much? I'd like you to show me where I said this. Not like it matters if he reacts or not. The battle is in a cave, when it explodes he gets caught in the AoE regardless.

No straw hat, I am going under the oppression of your premise:

this is used, and Kabuto tries to finish him, Naruto kills him with a chakra arm and FRS.

I can only assume that what you meant is when Naruto is paralyzed, and having his chakra control to act on its own (via chakra arms) is going to kill him when he gets close.

"Chakra Arm is shape manipulation at it's finest" Lol, either you don't know what the phrase implies, or you are outright lying about what you said.

I didn't know what that phrase implies. I assumed it meant that we can go into category on how to make chakra arms. It has to be either nature manipulation, ninjutsu, or shape manipulation? So yea I got the phrase wrong.

Lol, different levels of concentration is something that applies in real life. It's literally common sense. Do you need to concentrate when it comes to test taking as much as you need to concentrate when you are walking a tight rope? Obviously not.

Dont disagree with this. But it doesn't support whos more concentrated/work with. Using Susanoo or chakra arms. Or FRS. etc.

It being shape manipulation doesn't even begin to prove your point.

Its an advance form of chakra control, which shows no sign of it easier then forming Susanoo.

 

[KidGamer65]

Fine. I'll agree. Naruto loses.

 

[Icelerate]

Fine. I'll agree. Naruto loses.

Wow is this the first time you agreed with EjBlack?

 

[Beans2]

Fine. I'll agree. Naruto loses.

Are you serious...

 

[Gold Lightning]

I agree that white rage paralyses Naruto. I think it's absurd to even think Naruto can mould chakra properly, let alone create Rasengans and chakra arms -_- under such harsh and painful conditions.

 

[Sennin of Logic]

If it doesn't prove that then your saying Naruto doesn't need training for this to work. "

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SM still needed clones for the process of creating FRS against Juubi. And last time in SM, was he threw a giant one against Edo Madara, with the same process of creating a FRS. So I have no idea what your talking about.

KCM, last time he threw a FRS was in team 7 reunion, which also required him to have extra limbs to create the Rasengan in the same process.

This is the Naruto you can use in your argument, so I have no idea what your tryna point out here.



So were just going to ignore how BM had a time limit. And when both Susanoo and Kurama got dropped by Juubito, they both needed to reactivate their modes.



Yup, since he is going to feel like his head is about to explode, so I dont know what strong minded you think Naruto is, to consciously do this. Yet alone create a process to form a Rasengan.

Yet alone even think that Kabuto can't even react to it if he did the impossible under these conditions.



Never made a claim that its at highest level or at its peak of shape manipulation (even though manga stated Rasengan is), nor do I care about levels of concentration since theres no such thing as "levels" of concentrations. It something you came up with to try to refute how White Rage wouldn't work on characters other then Sasuke. Unless you have a source that shows specific levels of concentration in the manga.

Can you disprove that chakra arm isn't shape manipulation? Then my point stands.

Since Kidgamer conceded and I'm finished with the monstrous work in calculus I had to do this week, I'll have to step up my game and get more active in this debate.

Couple of problems with your analysis EJ.


1. White rage might prevent him from making FRS, but not maintaining it. The scan you just showed was the incomplete variation. This could easily mean that it just wasn't properly made in the first place, not that it needs maintenance.


2. Chakra arms do not require the slightest effort and/or concentration. White rage won't stop it. My evidence is this.

A. Naruto, no training with them whatsoever could use them, and all he has to do is maintain the concept of an arm. I don't believe that White rage is that effective to prevent all thought.

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B. It's even automatic (when Kurama takes charge, and that isn't exactly restricted)

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White rage might paralyze Naruto temporarily, but Naruto can certainly defend himself for the duration.

 

[KidGamer65]

Are you serious...

I'm 100% serious. With no defense against White Rage, he can't stop the following attack.