Kakashi kamui'd the gedo mazo mid summon, he kamui'd minato's rasengan after it made contact with him but before it could do damage to him. Don't under sell kakashi's kamui speed.
How can they touch him? Two anbu level shinobi (Fuu and Torune) devised a plan after just seeing Kamui once to counter Obito and it worked.
No it didn't. Tortune hit Fuu and both looked like idiots, and he wasn't using Izanagi in tandem with his kamui.
He couldn't warp one without being hit by the others attack so he choose to just take one attack and give his left arm to get one out of the way so he could get the other.
Wrong on both counts. He could warp either one but in order to warp either he has to become solid. Tortune's bugs activate on contact beyond tortune's control, so either way obito was losing Whatever limb that came in contact with him. He used it to his advantage to get fuu.
If those two guys made out that much after that brief of an encounter I think its safe to say the Gokage could make out at least that much too and form a counter strike.
He can but whether or not he chooses to get hit they are gonna have to keep on finding ways to kill him for ten minutes straight, and that's only if he doesn't choose to abuse izanagi's respawn capabilities.
Kakashi kamui'd the gedo mazo mid summon, he kamui'd minato's rasengan after it made contact with him but before it could do damage to him. Don't under sell kakashi's kamui speed.
No it didn't. Tortune hit Fuu and both looked like idiots, and he wasn't using Izanagi in tandem with his kamui. Wrong on both counts. He could warp either one but in order to warp either he has to become solid. Tortune's bugs activate on contact beyond tortune's control, so either way obito was losing Whatever limb that came in contact with him. He used it to his advantage to get fuu. They got caught and died after obito willingly gave up an arm.
The point of that post was to clarify that even with manga intel in the first scenario, Obito will still lose if even those guys can formulate a plan to counter Kamui.
Yes, that formation. Zabuza breaking through starter team 7 formation does not mean Obito breaks in Gokage formation so that point means nothing. When and if he does, he will only be able to warp one of them and one of the others will kill him when hes solid. Not to mention whoever he warps will attack him from the other side when he phases.
He can but whether or not he chooses to get hit they are gonna have to keep on finding ways to kill him for ten minutes straight, and that's only if he doesn't choose to abuse izanagi's respawn capabilities.
Where does Obito get 10 minutes of Izanagi? Izanagi re spawn is nothing if you can't hit your opponent anyway. Danzo re spawns and still couldn't kill Sasuke in his blind spot before he had a chance to react. If you're going to claim Obitos izanagi > Danzos so his will somehow be successful, then you're going to need to prove that Obito re spawns faster than Danzo (no evidence exists by the way) and that the one who dodged Amaterasu (an instant attack) at point blank range will succumb to being warped by Obito when hes lightened by Onoki.
physical reactions isn't a factor for kamui tho. Unless he's in a situation (which you've failed to post) that somehow stops him from using it, as long as he can mentally react he's quite fine.
The point of that post was to clarify that even with manga intel in the first scenario, Obito will still lose if even those guys can formulate a plan to counter Kamui.
But the plan in you're using as an example failed miserably, and it's only saving grace is based on an ability(tortune's nano contact based bugs) the gokage don't have.
Yes, that formation. Zabuza breaking through starter team 7 formation does not mean Obito breaks in Gokage formation so that point means nothing.
nope. He can keep them in genjutsu the moment he catches them, he already did it to fuu/tourtune. Or he can just go in there after he warps them and kills them in that 1v1 confrontation.
Madara put up his Susanno and mu was at 50% power be in controlled remotely by kabuto, what makes it worse is that kabuto could have had muu dodge but didn't since he was under the assumption that lightweight made ay's attacks weaker.
Danzo's respawn time was instant, unless you can show me a delay between him "dying" and respawning.
(no evidence exists by the way) and that the one who dodged Amaterasu (an instant attack) at point blank range will succumb to being warped by Obito when hes lightened by Onoki.
dodging ama isn't helpful in this situation. It would be like sasuke dodging Ay's elbow just to get his hand stuck in ay's chest.
Obito takes the hit with or without Izangi(since it's no where near as strong as kcm naruto's rasengan, or minato's oddama sized rasengan), uses the moment to grab ay, and warps him.
physical reactions isn't a factor for kamui tho. Unless he's in a situation (which you've failed to post) that somehow stops him from using it, as long as he can mentally react he's quite fine.
Its a factor when hes warping people. When Obito warps someone hes solid so when he warps one of the Gokage the other will attack him. In that instance while hes solid, warping a Kage, he can't physically move to dodge a kill blow from them so he has to use Izanagi.
Baseless claim. Go get evidence that supports Gedo Mazo and Minatos flying arm is faster than BM Naruto or Kamui in general is faster than BM Naruto. I would very much like to see your reasoning.
But the plan in you're using as an example failed miserably, and it's only saving grace is based on an ability(tortune's nano contact based bugs) the gokage don't have.
The Gokage preforming a tactic like that on Obito will work. The plan failed for Fuu and Torune because they lacked the necessary skills to make it effective.
nope. He can keep them in genjutsu the moment he catches them, he already did it to fuu/tourtune. Or he can just go in there after he warps them and kills them in that 1v1 confrontation.
Another baseless claim. Wheres the evidence that supports the moment they both got sucked in they were put into Genjutsu? After he sucked Torune in, he went to suck Fuu so that kills that point because anyway. In a 1v1 situation in Kamui land he can't even phase through attacks so Meis acid mist melts him. Gaaras sand crushes him. Ay chops his head off, Tsunade pulverizes him, Onoki vaporizes him.
Madara put up his Susanno and mu was at 50% power be in controlled remotely by kabuto, what makes it worse is that kabuto could have had muu dodge but didn't since he was under the assumption that lightweight made ay's attacks weaker.
Another baseless claim. Go get the feats that prove Muu can dodge backpack Ay. Madara having his Susanoo does not mean he can react to backpack Ay. The Susanoo was already on before Onoki hopped on Ays back so its not like they were an inch from him like
Except Danzo did breach Sasukes Susanoo but the point of that post was to prove Sasuke reacted and activated Susanoo before Danzo could land an attack on him. So backpack Ay will have no problems because he can already dodge instant (no time) things at point blank range so Obito trying to grab him or stab him (which takes time) won't happen.
Sasuke says "Don't ever speak Itachis name again". Was that phrase instant? No, obviously it took Sasuke time to say that. You try it. Repeat that phrase. How many seconds it took? About two, right? Danzos respawn is not instant at all, neither is Obitos and his physical reflexes are nothing to V1 or V2 Ay and you think hes faster than V2 Ay lightened by Onoki? Go get the scans to support Obito is faster thn
Ay dodged something that doesn't move from point A to point B (like Obitos arm). He dodged something much faster than Obito, something that is instant. It makes sense that Obito won't be able to grab him. How will Obitos hand touch him if something tiers above it in speed cant?
Obito takes the hit with or without Izangi(since it's no where near as strong as kcm naruto's rasengan, or minato's oddama sized rasengan), uses the moment to grab ay, and warps him.
So are you saying the Rasengans Naruto and Minato used can drill through Gyukis horn and knock him flat on his ass like Ays lateral chop did? Go get the evidence then.
Its a factor when hes warping people. When Obito warps someone hes solid so when he warps one of the Gokage the other will attack him. In that instance while hes solid, warping a Kage, he can't physically move to dodge a kill blow from them so he has to use Izanagi.
So kcm which is faster than V2 ay, and bm, which is faster than Lightweight ay is not something that would faze him.
Baseless claim. Go get evidence that supports Gedo Mazo and Minatos flying arm is faster than BM Naruto or Kamui in general is faster than BM Naruto. I would very much like to see your reasoning.
Space time techniques are nigh instant. Yet despite madara already activating summoning jutsu kamui still ripped off the gedo mazo's arm, and Minato's rasengan despite already making contact with kakashi's body got warped away b4 doing damage to kakashi, despite rasengan doing damage on contact.
The Gokage preforming a tactic like that on Obito will work.
no, the plan failed because it was a horrible plan, the only reason they even did damage to him is because unlike what you're claiming they had an ability (tortune's nano contact based bugs) that compensated for its lack of effectiveness.
Another baseless claim. Wheres the evidence that supports the moment they both got sucked in they were put into Genjutsu?
how? In what way does that negate either of the two points I brought up? Just because he didn't suck them in at the same time dosen't mean he didn't put each individual into a genjutsu when he sucked each in.
In a 1v1 situation in Kamui land he can't even phase through attacks so Meis acid mist melts him.
Like I said chances are he wouldn't even attempt dodging. We've seen madara get the drop on them with susanno up, we've seen madara willing take hits if he feels like it, so I don't see why this would be different. Obito on the other hand as a sensor can easily get around that combo, since like I said, the mist hurts the team just as much as it would effect obito.
reacting to kcm naruto multiple times, reacting to bm naruto multiple times, blocking madara's tsb, reacting to juubi jin madara's attack. Etc etc etc.
So he can't use kamui to dodge the attack.
konan's attack lasts 10 minutes^
He breaks his mask to start izanagi and after 10 minutes of non stop explosion's his eye dosen't seal itself.
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His izanagi lasts 10 minutes.
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Sasuke says "Don't ever speak Itachis name again". Was that phrase instant? No, obviously it took Sasuke time to say that. You try it. Repeat that phrase. How many seconds it took? About two, right? Danzos respawn is not instant at all,
Sasuke's statement isn't a reflection of izanagi respawn time. It's a reflection of sasuke's poor reactions in his enraged state. It got to the point where even karin was aware of Danzo's new location before Sasuke was.
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And even she was only aware after he done weaved his seals and prepped his jutsu.
It's quite instant tho:
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neither is Obitos and his physical reflexes are nothing to V1 or V2 Ay and you think hes faster than V2 Ay lightened by Onoki? Go get the scans to support Obito is faster thn
ama hype again? And btw it does move from point a to point b. Otherwise the samurai wouldn't have gotten hit.
He dodged something much faster than Obito, something that is instant. It makes sense that Obito won't be able to grab him. How will Obitos hand touch him if something tiers above it in speed cant?
So are you saying the Rasengans Naruto and Minato used can drill through Gyukis horn and knock him flat on his ass like Ays lateral chop did? Go get the evidence then.
a) lateral chop is a slicing attack where as rasengan isn't
b) he didn't knock gyuki on his ass since gyuki was already chained up
c) even chidori long Spear and obito's giant shuriken cut off gyuuki ' s body parts so ay doing it isn't that big a feat. Especially since long spear is weaker than standard chidori and chidori=rasengan.
Thats what the manji formation is there for. If they fight in that formation he will be hit by one of them. If he tries to warp one, the others are literally right there:
Naruto was not moving at max speed in either of those panels. Naruto didn't even use shunshin. All he did was jump off a rock to hurl himself at Obito. Naruto jumping does not equal Naruto shunshun. The sound effect *jump* is written right under that panel too so your own scan debunks your claim. The second one shows Naruto using only foot speed to slash Obito then Kiba and fodders making it to Obitos location too just as he attacked further reinforces my point of him not moving at max speed.
Space time techniques are nigh instant. Yet despite madara already activating summoning jutsu kamui still ripped off the gedo mazo's arm, and Minato's rasengan despite already making contact with kakashi's body got warped away b4 doing damage to kakashi, despite rasengan doing damage on contact.
Madara activated summoning jutsu. Gedo Mazo emerged and stood before Obito first. Kakashi then used Kamui and got its arm. Don't act like the instant Madara summoned it to his location was the instant Kakashi sniped it. He summoned it, it came from Obito and stood before them, then Kakashi sniped it, and then it went to Madara. The rest of your claim is also false. Kakashi clearly states
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is when he warped it so it never actually touched his body. That also debunks your claim of it not doing damage too because in the scan I just linked, theres a circular hole in his undershirt, meaning the rasengan ripped a whole through his shirt and it did damage when it made contact with it.
baseless. no, the plan failed because it was a horrible plan, the only reason they even did damage to him is because unlike what you're claiming they had an ability (tortune's nano contact based bugs) that compensated for its lack of effectiveness.
And in this case its not Torune and Fuu fighting now is it? Its 5 shinobi who are superior to them in every way. They don't need an ability like Torunes bugs. Their way will be more effective because they are more powerful with versatile abilities. I've shown you what the maji formation is and how close they fight to one another. I've shown you that the Gokage attacks will do to Obito so he needs Izanagi to survive. Why are you still going on with it being a horrible plan if you've already conceded that Obito would need to sacrifice an eye to live through this plan? Your post:
He says it himself. how? In what way does that negate either of the two points I brought up? Just because he didn't suck them in at the same time dosen't mean he didn't put each individual into a genjutsu when he sucked each in.
You claimed from the moment he sucks them in he can put them in Genjutsu. Once he sucks them in, he needs to completely go to the Kamui dimension and put them in it. They aren't automatically placed in a genjutsu just because they get sucked in, Obito needs to travel over and launch the Genjutsu on to them and in this case hes going to be brawling with them in order to do so and with full intel on his Izanagi, he gets shitted on.
Because its strapped to his body just like Kakashis tool bag is strapped to his body or Fuu + Torunes tanto sheaths are strapped to their backs. It goes with them. When Onoki lightends Gaaras sand (which he will do), he'll have no problem catching Obito and crushing him. He stays afloat on the sand and crushes him over and over again.
Already dismantled your speed claims earlier. Obitos physical reactions and reflexes are slightly lower than Kakashis, proven so during their battle in Kamui land. Ay blitzes him all day and avoid any behind the back stabs or grabs, or genjutsu with his speed, making him waste Izanagi. Tsunade will summon Katsuyu and blast him with acid. She can hide in Katsuyu for 10 minutes until Izanagi runs out. His Katons ain't doing shit to Katsuyu, not when even a palm sized version could
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of V2 Naruto in the fight against Pain. Nothing he has can breach Katsuyu to even get to Tsunade and he'll have to run to dodge her large scale acid attack. Izanagi is also running out by the way, remember that.
Yup, and the only one with no 100% certain counter for it is Mei. All the others have good counters that can easily make him waste Izanagi out in Kamui land.
Him having Susanoo up could mean he wouldn't even attempt dodging. Especially since he was sandbagging and killing time during that entire fight.Like I said chances are he wouldn't even attempt dodging. We've seen madara get the drop on them with susanno up, we've seen madara willing take hits if he feels like it, so I don't see why this would be different. Obito on the other hand as a sensor can easily get around that combo, since like I said, the mist hurts the team just as much as it would effect obito.
reacting to kcm naruto multiple times, reacting to bm naruto multiple times, blocking madara's tsb, reacting to juubi jin madara's attack. Etc etc etc.
except he didn't. Even when he tried to put a hole in its back(weakest spot) with the added help of Baku it never fully breached it. Scans of that? Cuz I remember sasuke's Susanoo being already up b4 anything of the sort happened.
Correct, I meant to say he reacted by turning around just before the weapon would have stabbed him so somewhere with superior reflexes and reactions would easily evade.
I see now you have no more legs to stand on. Everyone knows that when the user executes Amaterasu (after they've built up the chakra for it) it is instant. You not holding it up as instant is your own problem and it doesn't change the manga fact that it is instant. Good to know you're now denying facts all because you wan't to.
Again, in the manji formation when he trys to warp Ay, Tsunade will punch his head off or Onoki will weight him down,thus forcing him to use Izanagi to live, a point which you have
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already. So Obito will warp Ay into Kamui land and fight him there (as you said he would) only this time he has no Kamui to evade Ays attacks (not that he needs Kamui to evade anyway, remember Izanagi is still active in Kamui, as you also said) but it wont matter because nothing he has can beat Ay in time before Izanagi expires! No metal rods/kunais are breaching Raiton Armor if Sasukes Chidori Katana couldn't! No Katons are phasing Ay! No Genjutsu is hitting Ay!
So he can't use kamui to dodge the attack.
konan's attack lasts 10 minutes^
He breaks his mask to start izanagi and after 10 minutes of non stop explosion's his eye dosen't seal itself.
This is zero evidence that his Izanagi lasts 10 minutes. The only thing the manga tells us is that he can stay intangible for 5 minutes and that she has explosions for 10 minutes. I can claim Obito stayed intangible for 5 minutes then survived the other 5 with Izanagi, giving him a total time of only 5 minutes and leave it at that because thats exactly what you are doing to me. Not sure where you got the bold from. What was stated or implied in the manga that leads you to believe for some reason Obito couldn't become intangible for the first 5 minutes of her attack if he wanted to?
Sasuke's statement isn't a reflection of izanagi respawn time. It's a reflection of sasuke's poor reactions in his enraged state. It got to the point where even karin was aware of Danzo's new location before Sasuke was.
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And even she was only aware after he done weaved his seals and prepped his jutsu.
And nothing you posted in this quote countered my post at all. Karin kept her sensory on for that whole fight so obviously she would know Danzos location before Sasuke did but thats irrelevant anyway.
Stop dancing around my point. You know what instant is already and Izanagi is not it. You pulled up a random panel of Izanagi and claimed no time passed between Danzo dying and Danzo respawning (which would be instant) but if that were true the dying Danzo hit by the arrow would still be able to be seen when the new one respawns because the new one comes after the old one dies then vanishes (which takes time) so its not instant. Good try, I respect the effort.
No. Ay created an afterimage from the sheer speed at which he moved and thats what Sasukes eyes were focused on but it was really nothing there so it hit was behind Ay. Sasukes mind was still seeing the afterimage because he can't perceive the speed at which Ay moved but in reality Ay was already gone.
a) lateral chop is a slicing attack where as rasengan isn't
b) he didn't knock gyuki on his ass since gyuki was already chained up
c) even chidori long Spear and obito's giant shuriken cut off gyuuki ' s body parts so ay doing it isn't that big a feat. Especially since long spear is weaker than standard chidori and chidori=rasengan.
Obito can't win. Even if he manages to warp one that would set him at a disadvantage. Having someone in his dimension leaves him vulnerable to attacks within like Naruto and Kakashi managed to do. Furthermore Obito already admitted he was no match for the Gokage. He sent Sasuke to the summit in the hopes of weakening them so they can be captured.
Madara let his guard down because he believed Obito was going to take up his original role as saviour. Even then, Obito has Rikudou power there.
OT: Gokages take first scenario mid-high diff and the second mid-diff. Mei dealt with Madara's Katon so Obito's is certainly not a problem. And his vastly watered down Mokuton isn't doing much here either, hence why he only used it against what are considered fodder.
Thats what the manji formation is there for. If they fight in that formation he will be hit by one of them. If he tries to warp one, the others are literally right there:
them being there dosen't stop him from warping one of them.
Naruto was not moving at max speed in either of those panels. Naruto didn't even use shunshin. All he did was jump off a rock to hurl himself at Obito. Naruto jumping does not equal Naruto shunshun. The sound effect *jump* is written right under that panel too so your own scan debunks your claim.
not really. Since that's his combat speed. He went head to head with the likes of itachi, third raikage, and ay with it. I've never seen ay fight top speed via shunshin,so the same applies to him.
The second one shows Naruto using only foot speed to slash Obito then Kiba and fodders making it to Obitos location too just as he attacked further reinforces my point of him not moving at max speed.
Madara activated summoning jutsu. Gedo Mazo emerged and stood before Obito first. Kakashi then used Kamui and got its arm. Don't act like the instant Madara summoned it to his location was the instant Kakashi sniped it. He summoned it, it came from Obito and stood before them, then Kakashi sniped it, and then it went to Madara. The rest of your claim is also false.
Kakashi used Kamui the instant it went to Madara after it came out of obito.
Kakashi clearly states
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is when he warped it so it never actually touched his body. That also debunks your claim of it not doing damage too because in the scan I just linked, theres a circular hole in his undershirt, meaning the rasengan ripped a whole through his shirt and it did damage when it made contact with it.
no, you misunderstand. I already pointed this out. There's no damage to his actual body, just his clothing. Hence me making the distinction.
And in this case its not Torune and Fuu fighting now is it? Its 5 shinobi who are superior to them in every way. They don't need an ability like Torunes bugs. Their way will be more effective because they are more powerful with versatile abilities.
you're saying this yet you failed to give me concrete proof. I already explained how Obito gets around manji formation. I already explained that he can warp one and take any counter attack via izanagi and you've failed to explain how they stop it.
I've shown you what the maji formation is and how close they fight to one another. I've shown you that the Gokage attacks will do to Obito so he needs Izanagi to survive. Why are you still going on with it being a horrible plan if you've already conceded that Obito would need to sacrifice an eye to live through this plan?
Because it dosen't stop the kmaui/izanagi combo. He grabs one and kamui's them. They try to kill him, if they succeed, he respawns and their numbers drop by 1. Now it's 4 ppl in the manji formation and 1 person in kamuiland stuck in genjutsu. The cycle repeats for 10 minutes till all are either trapped or dead.
not with her shitty handseal speed. And he regenerates acid mist. Besides you still didn't provide proof on how she even breaks the genjutsu.
Because its strapped to his body just like Kakashis tool bag is strapped to his body or Fuu + Torunes tanto sheaths are strapped to their backs. It goes with them.
no more manji-formation? But I'd he stays afloat what's stopping obito from respawning directly behind him? Not that sand prison would actually kill him. Let alone catch him.
Already dismantled your speed claims earlier. Obitos physical reactions and reflexes are slightly lower than Kakashis, proven so during their battle in Kamui land.
how? Ay fights with straight taijutsu, and obito's reactions is already superior to it any type of close combat would end with ay going through a wall like in cannon.
Yup, and the only one with no 100% certain counter for it is Mei. All the others have good counters that can easily make him waste Izanagi out in Kamui land.
According to Madara he took rikudo chakra with the pieces of the bijuu which is well after madara initial's strike.
Correct, I meant to say he reacted by turning around just before the weapon would have stabbed him so somewhere with superior reflexes and reactions would easily evade.
nope. He used susanno to crush danzo, danzo reappears and tries to stab him but failed do to same susanno.
I see now you have no more legs to stand on. Everyone knows that when the user executes Amaterasu (after they've built up the chakra for it) it is instant.
but it isn't. Naruto proved this when he blocked it in base with a v1 chakra shroud,(he isn't a sensor in base so he can't sense it's buildup), ay proved it. Etc etc. It isn't manga fact. If it was it would be inescapable.Just like how it's hyped to be as hot as the sun yet isnt.
You not holding it up as instant is your own problem and it doesn't change the manga fact that it is instant. Good to know you're now denying facts all because you wan't to.
me not holding it up as isnis due to it being already disproven as instant. Just like how I can claim it's "manga fact" that Obito can move at the speed of light but that's already been disproven. It's not denying manga cuz the manga itself already denied it.
Again, in the manji formation when he trys to warp Ay,
I said he'd do that if ay tried to blitz him with onnoki. Which is something you have ay doing while staying in manji-formation. .. even tho that's impossible.
only this time he has no Kamui to evade Ays attacks (not that he needs Kamui to evade anyway, remember Izanagi is still active in Kamui, as you also said)
but it wont matter because nothing he has can beat Ay in time before Izanagi expires! No metal rods/kunais are breaching Raiton Armor if Sasukes Chidori Katana couldn't! No Katons are phasing Ay! No Genjutsu is hitting Ay!
Ay already got caught by genjutsu, yet you keep on saying he can't do it.
This is zero evidence that his Izanagi lasts 10 minutes. The only thing the manga tells us is that he can stay intangible for 5 minutes and that she has explosions for 10 minutes. I can claim Obito stayed intangible for 5 minutes then survived the other 5 with Izanagi, giving him a total time of only 5 minutes and leave it at that because thats exactly what you are doing to me.
it's perfect evidence, since he began breaking his mask off for izanagi before she even started the continous explosions.
Not sure where you got the bold from. What was stated or implied in the manga that leads you to believe for some reason Obito couldn't become intangible for the first 5 minutes of her attack if he wanted to?
Yeah konan keeping obito within her sight. The swirl pattern appears whenever he tries to absorb himself and as he so blatantly put it she put the bombs on him before he can finish the jump, forcing him to let the bombs slip through him and forcing him to keep kamui active, as he fell. Which is why he switched over to izanagi.
And nothing you posted in this quote countered my post at all. Karin kept her sensory on for that whole fight so obviously she would know Danzos location before Sasuke did but thats irrelevant anyway.
then why was she only aware of Danzo's location after he prepped his jutsu? What yore saying contradicts the manga.
Stop dancing around my point. You know what instant is already and Izanagi is not it. You pulled up a random panel of Izanagi and claimed no time passed between Danzo dying and Danzo respawning (which would be instant)
why would that be the case? Just because it's instant that doesn't mean it overlaps. If it did then danzo would have multiple chakra signatures out.
but if that were true the dying Danzo hit by the arrow would still be able to be seen when the new one respawn because the new one comes after the old one dies then vanishes (which takes time) so its not instant. Good try, I respect the effort.
how is it debunked? Are you suggesting Naruto Sandbagged his speed for the better part of a day to give obito a fighting chance?
No. Ay created an afterimage from the sheer speed at which he moved and thats what Sasukes eyes were focused on but it was really nothing there so it hit was behind Ay. Sasukes mind was still seeing the afterimage because he can't perceive the speed at which Ay moved but in reality Ay was already gone.
No Since nothing puts lateral chop on the level of raikiri run on kunai.
Lateral chop's best feat(cutting gyuki horn) is matching somthing obito achived casually with giant shuriken(cutting gyuki tentacles.
Feat wise it sits with chidori long Spear(cutting gyuki tentacles) which databook already pegged as weaker than standard chidori.
Only if he doesn't use Izanagi. My argument from the get go has been the Manji Formation stops Obito from warping one of them. You said that Obito has Izanagi so this formation won't help because he'll just respawn anyway if one of the Gokage should kill him while hes solid. Alright, we both agree such a thing is possible and I have moved on to address why he still loses the fight so why post stuff we already agree on and cause more walls of text?
not really. Since that's his combat speed. He went head to head with the likes of itachi, third raikage, and ay with it. I've never seen ay fight top speed via shunshin,so the same applies to him. They got there afterwards.
No. Combat speed is how quickly one can react and and attack in a fight. That panel shows the speed at which Naruto jumped off a rock. Nothing else. The *swoosh* effect of Narutos slash in the second panel shows he just attacked and the fodders and Kiba are next to him. Naruto is already tiers above all of them in speed so if he was gong max theres no way they could make it to his location right after he gets there. Now you're claiming since Naruto didn't use his max speed in those panels it also applies to Ay and means he won't be using his max speed either against Obito? Lol If you're making this claim then I think you've conceded that Obito isn't reacting to Ay without Kamui. Good to know.
Kakashi used Kamui the instant it went to Madara after it came out of obito.
no, you misunderstand. I already pointed this out. There's no damage to his actual body, just his clothing. Hence me making the distinction.
Bro.... After it came out of Obito it didn't instantly go to Madara. If it instantly went to Madara then Kakashi would have never been able to snipe its arm because no time would have passed(what instant is) and he wouldn't have been able to use Kamui to begin with! Lol
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Lol You claimed Rasengan made contact with Kakashis body, not contact with his shirt. If Sasuke slices someone with Chidori Spear and he only gets their shirt, it didn't make contact with their body, which is what you claimed for the Rasengan. It did damage to Kakashis shirt and then he warped it but you posted as if it hit his actual body and Kamuis speed is so godly that Kakashi warped it before the damage even took effect.
you're saying this yet you failed to give me concrete proof. I already explained how Obito gets around manji formation. I already explained that he can warp one and take any counter attack via izanagi and you've failed to explain how they stop it.
Because it dosen't stop the kmaui/izanagi combo. He grabs one and kamui's them. They try to kill him, if they succeed, he respawns and their numbers drop by 1. Now it's 4 ppl in the manji formation and 1 person in kamuiland stuck in genjutsu. The cycle repeats for 10 minutes till all are either trapped or dead.
it's the same thing I said above and you failed to provide a situation in which, they get around it.
Lol I already agree that he can take one of them with the Kamui/Izanagi combo. I have said this several times now. What I don't agree with is your Genjutsu claim. You haven't explained how they are automatically put in a Genjutsu once they are warped into Kamui! I said if Obito wants to put one of them in Genjutsu he needs to travel to the Kamui dimension and invoke the Genjutsu on them, which they wont stand around and let happen. He will have to fight them and Izanagi is wasting out during this time.
yes. Unless you have proof otherwise.
proof. Where did obito say that.
yes they are. Cuz that's what obito said. Unless you have proof that he had to go over there and put them in Genjutsu.
you're still not showing me the proof.
:| The burden of proof is on you because YOU made the claim that Genjutsu is automatically activated on anyone he sucks into Kamui! You made a ridiculous claim without ever providing proof but your asking me to prove your claim false when you never proved it true to begin with!! Lol
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Where does the scan states those sucked into Kamui are automatically put into Genjutsu? Lol Your argument here is egregious. How does Obito suck someone in Kamui, but at the same time he molds chakra in his eye to invoke a sharingan genjutsu on them? Where in the manga has Obito ever invoked another Jutsu while warping him self or someone else with Kamui? Where was it ever stated that anyone sucked into Kamui are auto under genjutsu?
What your claiming is action at a distance with nothing to connect the dots. That is magic and sorry, it doesn't exist in the NV, there is always something connecting the dots. Genjutsu doesn't magically cast itself on those sucked into Kamui so please stop with this fan fiction non sense. If Obito wants to use the genjutsu on them, he has to travel to Kamui and use it on them.
They don't need to know the mechanics of the technique to survive it because their way of fighting allows them to survive without having intel on it. I've told you why already when mentioned how each of them fair against him in Kamui land
The handseal speed that intercepted Madaras giant Katon right after he used it then casted the Water Dragon, which is 44 hand seals?:
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Genjutsu is broken by the same method everyone breaks Genjutsu. Stopping the chakra flow then restarting it. If Mei can fuse two chakra natures to create a new element(2 new elements actually), her level of chakra control is high because Yamato said using 2 natures separately is not difficult but using 2 at the same time is a whole different story, so its the opposite of that. If you're going to claim Mei has no feats of breaking genjutsu then you might as well acknowledge that everyone in the manga who has no feats cant break genjutsu, which is absurd.
Hiding like mole easily cancels out any of garra's sand prisons. No need for kamui.
no more manji-formation? But I'd he stays afloat what's stopping obito from respawning directly behind him? Not that sand prison would actually kill him. Let alone catch him.
Hiding like a mole won't be effective because of the sands sensory abilities to feel people moving. It makes no difference if he respawns directly behind him or not. Gaaras sand auto protects him from all attacks or he can hide in his ball, see with his third eye and still beat Obito. Even if Gaaras sand couldn't catch Obito, its Obito who is going to be on the run from the sand. Hes not some hax speedster who can evade all Gaaras sand and still land attacks on him. Katons are tanked with Sand, weapons are deflected.
how? Ay fights with straight taijutsu, and obito's reactions is already superior to it any type of close combat would end with ay going through a wall like in cannon.
Too bad Kamuis speed does not equal Obitos own physical body speeds. But hey, you already know this so at this point I think your just arguing for the sake to argue.
A wood clone that grabbed him with Susanoo when Madara was out his line of sight (he was looking at Tsunade) and his only arm was holding one Susanoo in the air. So yeah, Madara grabbed an unaware Ay with no arms to defend himself. Please tell me more how Obito gets Ay in a situation like that. Bold is baseless. Get the evidence that proves Ay can't last 10 minutes versus non Kamui Obito. If not, concede.
Manda dodged that acid. How is it touching obito.
so did his clothing. Does that mean naruto's clothing> all katons? Lol. Just fcking with you. It gets genjutsu'd like all other summons do.
It does not need to hit him. He will attempt to run when she shoots it and Izanagi is being wasted. Katsuyu and Tsunade chakra are connected so one would feel the disturbance in the others chakra, so Genjutsu is broken accordingly. Tsunade is the queen of chakra control, don't think I need to explain that.
Then Tsunade tells Katsuyu to leave while shes inside her, taking Tsunade with her then shes reversed summoned back to the Gokage. Don't say "they are in Kamui its impossible" because Sasuke still summoned his Hawk in Kaguyas dimension and when it wasn't needed it desummoned itself away.
still has izanagi, and giant sizes katons. Still didn't provide proof of obito having to go in kamuiland to genjutsu onnoki. takes a hit. Respawns behind onnoki. Kills him.
My proof was posted earlier. What your claiming is magic and it doesnt exist in Narutoverse. You already agreed Obito is the one who would cast the move and I'm asking you to tell me how! You have no evidence, your argument is Obito said he did (which you took out of context) and it goes against all logic and sense in the narutoverse. When we take all we know about genjutsu and all we know about Kamui, we understand that Genjutsu needs to be invoked on them through eye contact and Obito can't do that in the physical world, so he must go to Kamui land to do so.
They don't need intel on Izanagi to survive Izanagi!!!!! Izanagi is just the user respawning after death. What they need to do is counter anything after he respawns! Gaara has sand (he cant breach it) to protect him 360 degrees. Mei has Hidden Mist to protect her (he cant see), Tsunade will sit in Katsuyu (he cant breach it) Onoki will fly and feint him with clones (he can't tell difference) and Ay is just reacting to any and everything he can do!
but it isn't. Naruto proved this when he blocked it in base with a v1 chakra shroud, (he isn't a sensor in base so he can't sense it's buildup), ay proved it. Etc etc. It isn't manga fact. If it was it would be inescapable. Just like how it's hyped to be as hot as the sun yet isnt.
me not holding it up as isnis due to it being already disproven as instant. Just like how I can claim it's "manga fact" that Obito can move at the speed of light but that's already been disproven. It's not denying manga cuz the manga itself already denied it.
Sasuke could sense natrual energy with ridoku chakra so Naruto would be able to sense chakra with ridouku chakra as well. Second paragraph is fallacious, we know Obito can't move at the speed of light and Zetsu was just over exaggerating his speed with a metaphor in a friendly manner because Obito was scolding him for arriving later than he did. Its like me saying to a friend "hey I can't bench press 300 pounds like you. I'm not as strong as Goku bro" Anyway, I'll concede the Amaterasu point being instant. Its still tiers above the speed Obito can do stuff at so it makes no difference.
Don't you already have ay and onnoki breaking manji-formation formation to try blitz obito? What? Lol no.
i thought onnoki was backpacking ay
I accepted obito using izanagi to live after he already sent 1 of the 5 to kamui land.
Then he'd respawn rinse and repea5.
I said he'd do that if ay tried to blitz him with onnoki. Which is something you have ay doing while staying in manji-formation. .. even tho that's impossible.
Only Ay needs to blitz him since he can't react to such speed. Obito will have to use Izanagi to just warp one, I've addressed this earlier. If Ay blitzes him and he phases to go to the Gokage, Ay dips right back to kill him like he planned to on Minato since the only logical place there is for him to go to is the Gokage.
And you're refusing to acknowledge that the circumstances under which he was caught will never occur with him against Obito so the Genjutsu is never happening.
it's perfect evidence, since he began breaking his mask off for izanagi before she even started the continous explosions.
Yeah konan keeping obito within her sight. The swirl pattern appears whenever he tries to absorb himself and as he so blatantly put it she put the bombs on him before he can finish the jump, forcing him to let the bombs slip through him and forcing him to keep kamui active, as he fell. Which is why he switched over to izanagi.
She has to actually sense his location then relay it to Sasuke and in that time he prepped his technique. Danzos hand seal speed is fast, enough to form seals before Susanoo Arrow hits him.
why would that be the case? Just because it's instant that doesn't mean it overlaps. If it did then danzo would have multiple chakra signatures out.
the vanishing is apart of the death. Seeing as how karin could still sense his chakra signature, after sasuke would deal fatal hits to him.
I'm suggesting all characters are given plot induced stupidity to make the story work and its not valid in versus threads. V2 Ay would have killed all of Team Taka at the start of their fight yet it didn't happen for plot reasons. Same situation here, Naruto didn't use max speed because Obito would not have been able to react.
Thats not the technique traveling, its spawning where ever Itachis eye looks and since hes moving it across from left to right it seems as if its one lone burst of Amaterasu but its new flames igniting as he turns. I agree, its hype has been damaged but in the grand scheme of things its still faster than what Obito can do.
No Since nothing puts lateral chop on the level of raikiri run on kunai.
Lateral chop's best feat(cutting gyuki horn) is matching somthing obito achived casually with giant shuriken(cutting gyuki tentacles.
Feat wise it sits with chidori long Spear(cutting gyuki tentacles) which databook already pegged as weaker than standard chidori.
Lateral Chop busted Sasukes rib cage Susanoo. That puts it above all of those attacks. Lateral Chop is not just a cutting Raiton attack, it also has a tremendous about of blunt force behind it too and its laughable you think those attacks are even greater than it. Unless you think Obitos body is more durable than ribcage Susanoo, we have nothing to discuss on this point and if you do think that, I have a post explaining exactly why its not true. So shoot.
I'm tired too. I learned a few new things in this debate so it was fun. We can agree to disagree if you want but I'm certainly not conceding that Obito solos them. Not a chance. Never.
physical reactions isn't a factor for kamui tho. Unless he's in a situation (which you've failed to post) that somehow stops him from using it, as long as he can mentally react he's quite fine.
Yeah he was. Guy was with kakashi naruto was using bee as cover and bee was pinned by obito's rods.
both of those are faster than bm naruto.
But the plan in you're using as an example failed miserably, and it's only saving grace is based on an ability(tortune's nano contact based bugs) the gokage don't have.
hmm. Got me there.
Hence the izanagi.
nope. He can keep them in genjutsu the moment he catches them, he already did it to fuu/tourtune. Or he can just go in there after he warps them and kills them in that 1v1 confrontation.
was mei even using hidden mist in those two instances? I'd like some scans please.
Madara put up his Susanno and mu was at 50% power be in controlled remotely by kabuto, what makes it worse is that kabuto could have had muu dodge but didn't since he was under the assumption that lightweight made ay's attacks weaker.
from the sharingan behind his mask.
But he can. The only person comparable to him in speed and reactions would be v2 lightweight ay, and even then I'd still tip it in obito's favor.
Danzo couldn't kill Sasuke cuz he had 0 means to breach susanno. He got the drop on sasuke many times in that fight.
it is by default seeing as obito's lasts ten minutes per eye whereas Danzo's only lasts 1.
Danzo's respawn time was instant, unless you can show me a delay between him "dying" and respawning. dodging ama isn't helpful in this situation. It would be like sasuke dodging Ay's elbow just to get his hand stuck in ay's chest.
Obito takes the hit with or without Izangi(since it's no where near as strong as kcm naruto's rasengan, or minato's oddama sized rasengan), uses the moment to grab ay, and warps him.
