SM Hashirama vs Edo Madara.

[Brother Numpsay]

Madara already failed to beat him in canon. Canon>Any kind of argument you can bring. Sorry pal.

Actually they both fail to beat each other in canon. And never did it apply that Madara use all the paths in his arsenal, which switches the fight much differently. Especially when his goal became to absorb his SM in canon.

Except it doesn't, as shown by their whole fight, where he didn't use Mayfly to counter anything, and where Mokuryu had him wrapped up and he couldn't use Mayfly. No reason why he wouldn't be able to either

Theres was nothing to counter with Mayfly. The whole battle was focused on Hashirama parrying PS with Mokujin. Then later on the whole battle became CQC.

@Bold: Pretty sure you skim through my point when I said BAR which = EXCEPT.

What?

The majority of peoples premise were, activate SS, gg.

I address Deva Paths ability, which will force SS to pound it senseless first before attempting to pound Madara. Thats his opening.

Considering SS would pound him into dust...I'm gonna go ahead and say no.

No SS isn't going to pound himself, which where Madara will be located.

Except it wouldn't. No reason why would it be.

Mayfly there just like Zetsu did in canon

 

[KidGamer65]

Actually they both fail to beat each other in canon.

Doesn't change my point. Madara failed to beat a weakened Hashirama in canon, so he's not beating full power Hashirama here either.

Not to mention Madara was the one who was bound. Hashirama had rods in his back, but was still mobile until Madara was revived, so he technically won.

And never did it apply that Madara use all the paths in his arsenal, which switches the fight much differently.

No reason to believe Madara didn't try his hardest. Unless there is some kind of evidence he didn't use the paths, then I have no reason to believe he didn't, especially since Hashirama used Mokuryu to negate Preta Path, meaning that is one Rinnegan technique Madara DID use during their fight.

And no, he didn't know Madara could absorb chakra beforehand, nor does it switch up this fight since PS>Rinnegan techs as stated by Madara himself. SS>PS. Do the math.

Especially when his goal became to absorb his SM in canon.

Irrelevant. His goal being to absorb Senjutsu Chakra from Hashirama doesn't mean that he didn't fight at anything short of his full power. He had to subdue Hashirama first, which is something he couldn't do in canon.

Theres was nothing to counter with Mayfly. The whole battle was focused on Hashirama parrying PS with Mokujin. Then later on the whole battle became CQC.

Mokuryu? Lol. You are claiming he's going to use Mayfly to merge with someone else's Mokuton Jutsu, which is being controlled by their chakra. Not only is there no evidence he can do this, Madara didn't attempt to do this when he was bound by Mokuryu, when he was trapped in Hashirama's Gates, or when he was fighting Mokujin. Instead, he was trapped for the first two instances and he used Susanoo to match Mokuryu. No reason to believe he can do what you claim he can do.

Not to mention the jutsu he uses isn't Mayfly, but it's similar.

@Bold: Pretty sure you skim through my point when I said BAR which = EXCEPT.

I read it and I addressed it, you are going to need to give me proof that Mokuryu would stop him from using Mayfly.

The majority of peoples premise were, activate SS, gg.

I address Deva Paths ability, which will force SS to pound it senseless first before attempting to pound Madara. Thats his opening.

Which ability of Deva Path? SS will have to poind what senseless before pounding Madara? Cause I'm still not getting what you are saying based on how Deva's Jutsu work.

No SS isn't going to pound himself, which where Madara will be located.

Except it won't be.

Mayfly there just like Zetsu did in canon

1. Madara doesn't use Zetsu's Mayfly.

2. If he merges with any of Hashirama's Mokuton constructs, Hashirama merely sprouts Mokuton from where Madara is, causing him to be bound and killed.

3. He won't get the opportunity to merge. He'll be pasted by the hundreds of fists coming at him before he ever has a chance to merge with them. So this plan is ridiculous even if it's possible to fuse with Hashirama's Mokuton.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Doesn't change my point. Madara failed to beat a weakened Hashirama in canon, so he's not beating full power Hashirama here either.

Not to mention Madara was the one who was bound. Hashirama had rods in his back, but was still mobile until Madara was revived, so he technically won.

Na it was a tie the moment he needed Naruto's help.

No reason to believe Madara didn't try his hardest. Unless there is some kind of evidence he didn't use the paths, then I have no reason to believe he didn't, especially since Hashirama used Mokuryu to negate Preta Path, meaning that is one Rinnegan technique Madara DID use during their fight.

Of course there is no evidence he use all his paths. Do you see meteors or CT flying around in the sky? No then my point stands.

And no, he didn't know Madara could absorb chakra beforehand, nor does it switch up this fight since PS>Rinnegan techs as stated by Madara himself. SS>PS. Do the math.

Good thing Rinnegan be be use in conjunction with PS which makes it Rin/PS>SS.

Irrelevant. His goal being to absorb Senjutsu Chakra from Hashirama doesn't mean that he didn't fight at anything short of his full power. He had to subdue Hashirama first, which is something he couldn't do in canon.

Ok

Mokuryu? Lol. You are claiming he's going to use Mayfly to merge with someone else's Mokuton Jutsu, which is being controlled by their chakra. Not only is there no evidence he can do this, Madara didn't attempt to do this when he was bound by Mokuryu, when he was trapped in Hashirama's Gates, or when he was fighting Mokujin. Instead, he was trapped for the first two instances and he used Susanoo to match Mokuryu. No reason to believe he can do what you claim he can do.

Not to mention the jutsu he uses isn't Mayfly, but it's similar.

Yes I can claim that since Zetsu shown doing it in canon. And with Madara having his DNA making them perfectly sync with him. Forgot gates were confirm as Mokuton but still as I pointed out, techs that supresses chakra/absorb on contact can't be mayflied.

I read it and I addressed it, you are going to need to give me proof that Mokuryu would stop him from using Mayfly.

IF you read it then you would know context was agreeing with you.

Which ability of Deva Path? SS will have to poind what senseless before pounding Madara? Cause I'm still not getting what you are saying based on how Deva's Jutsu work.

CT, gravity pick up thing and Meteor

Except it won't be.

yes

1. Madara doesn't use Zetsu's Mayfly.

2. If he merges with any of Hashirama's Mokuton constructs, Hashirama merely sprouts Mokuton from where Madara is, causing him to be bound and killed.

3. He won't get the opportunity to merge. He'll be pasted by the hundreds of fists coming at him before he ever has a chance to merge with them. So this plan is ridiculous even if it's possible to fuse with Hashirama's Mokuton.

1. You said it yourself thats its similar so my premise stays similar.
2. Thats gonna be difficult since mayfly will share chakra signature, plus clones
3. not w/ my premise

 

[KingHashirama]

Naruto and Hashirama should've just beat both of their opponents from the start, instead of only trying near the end (well Naruto didn't even try to beat Sasuke even at the end). This would save us from dealing with alot of Denial-phased Madara and Sasuke fans.


OT: Hashirama would pretty much low-diff.

 

[EliteKakashi]

I lost care of the manga outside of panels involving Kakashi and Gai long before the war-arc, so my memory on things not involving them isn't the greatest, so correct me if I'm wrong here.

Didn't watered down/edo version Hashirama beat Edo Madara during the war?

If so, why is this a thread?

 

[KidGamer65]

Na it was a tie the moment he needed Naruto's help.

To put him down in order to seal him.

-Does that change the fact he was bound?

No.

He couldn't move, Hashirama could, so it was his win.

Of course there is no evidence he use all his paths. Do you see meteors or CT flying around in the sky? No then my point stands.

Not using some abilities of the paths=/=Not using all of the paths in general. Meteors and CT are irrelevant cause Meteors and CT are all inferior to PS, which is inferior to Hashirama's full power.

Good thing Rinnegan be be use in conjunction with PS which makes it Rin/PS>SS.

Good thing "Rinnegan in conjunction with PS" is irrelevant unless he's combining both techniques together to make a stronger one. (Sasuke using Chidori w/ PS) Lol, news flash. Using them together means nothing if they aren't being combined. If you are saying he'll use Rinnegan techniques w/ PS like Sasuke did with Chidori, then I suggest you get the scans. PS was stated to be his full power, meaning he has nothing that surpasses it.

Yes I can claim that since Zetsu shown doing it in canon. And with Madara having his DNA making them perfectly sync with him

Except Zetsu uses the actual Mayfly, Madara doesn't.

Forgot gates were confirm as Mokuton but still as I pointed out, techs that supresses chakra/absorb on contact can't be mayflied.

Based on what?

IF you read it then you would know context was agreeing with you.

I read it. Yes, Mayfly is not a counter. I know that. You are going to need to prove why it's not a counter to Mokuryu but it's a counter to the rest.

CT, gravity pick up thing and Meteor

Madara needs to focus for CT. Either SS takes him out first, or it takes out CT and then takes out Madara. Either way, Madara won't be able to get to SS using CT as a distraction, cause he'll be immobile during the formation of it.

Gravity pick up thing? Not recalling such a move. There is Shinra Tensei, Bansho Tennin, both of which are useless on something as large and powerful as SS, unless you have the feats saying Madara can repel something that large.

Meteor? Madara needs to be still, and needs to be in Susanoo to use the Meteor. If he does that, and then charges at Hashirama's statue. Hands smash the Meteor, and hands smash Madara at the same time.

He can't even do all this at the same time, making it harder for him to use these techs as some kind of distraction.

1. You said it yourself thats its similar so my premise stays similar.

Similar=/=The Same. Meaning you can't hand Mayfly's feats over to Madara's jutsu.

2. Thats gonna be difficult since mayfly will share chakra signature, plus clones

Madara inside Hashirama's Mokuton is going to have the same signature as Hashirama? He's in Hashirama's Mokuton, Hashirama's chakra. If Madara is in there, it's easy to pinpoint his chakra.

3. not w/ my premise

Even with your premise this is what will happen.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Imma take a break Lol.

 

[Apêx1]

Although I agree with EjBlack that the Rinnegan can be used in conjunction with PS (since PS was shown to be used while Rinnegan was active, and other users have demonstrated a Tenketsu abundance in Susano), I do not agree that it would boost it up to a Kyuubi+PS power level. It still lacks the power to actually overpower SS, since ST, CST, Asura bombs, or anything the Rinnegan has to offer will be ineffective. And the only Mokuton based mayfly/merging the manga has shown was when the user was merging with his own chakra. No reason to believe it can merge with another person's chakra. Hashirama still mid diffs.

 

[Demonic.]

EJ Black and Madara Rules AKA Bronze being dumbasses as usual. What else is new Lol

The meteor technique is a suicide technique. Madara was crushed by it, but regenerated due to being an Edo. And since regeneration is restricted here, it's useless.

Hashirama mid diff.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

And the only Mokuton based mayfly/merging the manga has shown was when the user was merging with his own chakra.

No reason to believe it can merge with another person's chakra. Hashirama still mid diffs.

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[Princessu Kaaantchan]

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To be fair it was Spiral Zetsu's chaka. If it were that simple Madara would've used it in his fight against Hashirama when they were revived.

Like Hashirama needs Shinsusenju to clown Madara anyway. Madz needed the Kyuubi to bring out Sage mode in the first place, and this is when Hashirama was holding back, not wanting to kill his friend. Sage Hashirama lays the smackdown on madara in CQC anyway if Madara tries to scurry around his wood constructs.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

To be fair it was Spiral Zetsu's chaka. If it were that simple Madara would've used it in his fight against Hashirama when they were revived.

It was both Yamato and Zetsu powers being sync which further strengthens my claims.

Like Hashirama needs Shinsusenju to clown Madara anyway. Madz needed the Kyuubi to bring out Sage mode in the first place, and this is when Hashirama was holding back, not wanting to kill his friend. Sage Hashirama lays the smackdown on madara in CQC anyway if Madara tries to scurry around his wood constructs.

It was confirmed that PS can use character abilities, like Sasuke adding Chidori into his palm.

Thats theoretically possible with Madara using it with CT. There is alot of combos Madara can potentially use in this conditions, plus the fact that DB stated he can fly with his PS.

So whatever fight you see in manga doesn't have to be a fight exactly the same way. Even when manga intel shows a the match has to be fought differently to win.

gtg for now.

 

[KidGamer65]

It was confirmed that PS can use character abilities, like Sasuke adding Chidori into his palm.

No, it's confirmed that Sasuke w/ Rikudo's Chakra can use Chidori w/ his Perfect Susanoo. Rikudo Sasuke=/=Edo Madara.

 

[Apêx1]

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Yamato was basically used as a medium to amplify Mokuton, so his and Hashirama's chakras were in fact incorporated into everything used by Spiral Zetsu. Therefor Zetsu's merging with mini-SS=Zetsu's showing that they can merge with what created them, Hashirama/Yamato DNA. So you didn't disprove anything, as Madara remains to be predominantly of his own chakra.

No, it's confirmed that Sasuke w/ Rikudo's Chakra can use Chidori w/ his Perfect Susanoo. Rikudo Sasuke=/=Edo Madara.

You are appealing to ignorance by denying the fact that Rikudo chakra has nothing to do with existing Tenktesu on Susano. Enton can be manifested from Susano itself since v1, don't see why Madara is an exception to this.

 

[ARGUS]

Hashirama matched madaras full power with mokujin alone,
SS pounds madaras head and squashes him like a bug

 

[madvictory]

Edo Madara tried his hardest against a weakened version of Hashirama who did NOT use SS.
Now, a full powered Hashirama destroys Madara, especially if he's using his full power (AKA: Buddha).

 

[King Of Pop]

dont see how this is debatable, hashirama matched him without involving the buddha meaning he wasnt even full power. once that construct comes out madara is crushed with chojo kebetsu. hashirama low mid dif.

 

[KidGamer65]

You are appealing to ignorance by denying the fact that Rikudo chakra has nothing to do with existing Tenktesu on Susano. Enton can be manifested from Susano itself since v1, don't see why Madara is an exception to this.

Susanoo doesn't have Tenketsu. Tenketsu are points in the chakra pathway system where chakra can be released. Pure chakra can't have chakra points, makes no sense.

Enton being manifested on Susanoo=/=Susanoo users being able to use whatever Ninjutsu they want via their Susanoo. Susanoo has been in the series since Chapter 393, yet no such ability was shown until after Sasuke got Rikudo's Chakra. Sasuke could have used Chidori Senbon with his normal PS against Naruto, yet he only showed the ability to make a bow, and use said Senbon after buffing his Susanoo with Bijuu Chakra.

There is no reason to believe Madara can use Rinnegan Jutsu via his Susanoo like Sasuke did. He is not Sasuke, nor does he have the same powers as him, nor is he even as strong as him.

 

[Conspirator.]

Hashirama stomps with SS. In fact, he can probably take it high diff without it. SM Mokujin stalemated Madara's PS(his full power) in canon, and he eventually restrained Madara with difficulty.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

???

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Yamato was basically used as a medium to amplify Mokuton, so his and Hashirama's chakras were in fact incorporated into everything used by Spiral Zetsu. Therefor Zetsu's merging with mini-SS=Zetsu's showing that they can merge with what created them, Hashirama/Yamato DNA. So you didn't disprove anything, as Madara remains to be predominantly of his own chakra.

Yet somehow were going to ignore how Hashirama's DNA inside Madara, are in fact incorporated with his body. And how Mayfly doesn't work by chakra signature to begin with