[VS] War Arc Gaara vs. Hiruzen

[Beans2]

How does Gaara lose S1 but win S2? S2 has no kind of Sand available to him, they are fighting in a building, that's concrete. He has Sand available to him, or at least the materials to make Sand in S1.



Gaara wins 1, but loses 2.

I didnt read S2 properly.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Ok, so you disliked my post with no given explanation

Saying Hiruzen wins one, but loses two doesn't make any sense...

Hiruzen wins high diff

-Water attack to soak the sand + lightning attack to tear through it effectively busts Gaara's ultimate defense
-Enma pole extension works as well so Hiruzen can poke Gaara out of the skies with it
-Sand coffins can be avoided by Hiruzen grabbing Enma pole and extending it out of the sand coffin with him on the end, so only one end of the pole remains in the sand and it's too durable to be crushed

Gaara wins scenarios 2 and 3

>You're not taking into consideration that unlike Hiruzen, Gaara can be on the offensive and defensive simultaneously. If Hiruzen is using his elemental jutsu, then he can't defend himself - leaving an opening for Gaara to attack.
>That's silliness
>Gaaras executon should be faster then that. Assuming it did work, enmas pole can only move one way, where he's easiily met with morw sand. And it shouldn't be a hard feat for Gaara to separate the two either considering his hands of sand are significantly stronger then Hiruzen.

 

[Beans2]

Saying Hiruzen wins one, but loses two doesn't make any sense...

I didn't read S2 properly.

>You're not taking into consideration that unlike Hiruzen, Gaara can be on the offensive and defensive simultaneously. If Hiruzen is using his elemental jutsu, then he can't defend himself - leaving an opening for Gaara to attack.

Actually, he can focus on both offense and defense simultaneously by increasing his numbers with shadow clones.

>That's silliness

Why? Although it's a very linear attack and Gaara should be able to dodge, if executed by a shadow clone from a blind spot it could work. Sand defense isn't cutting it either considering Enma has enough force to push Kyubi outside the Leaf village walls. Though Gaara can compensate for blind spots by using Third Eye.

>Gaaras executon should be faster then that. Assuming it did work, enmas pole can only move one way, where he's easiily met with morw sand. And it shouldn't be a hard feat for Gaara to separate the two either considering his hands of sand are significantly stronger then Hiruzen.

Hiruzen can

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like Gai repelled Gaara's sand (

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)(

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), although that's situational of course. His sand arms are stronger than Hiruzen but not Enma since Enma has the force to push the Kyubi out of the village. (

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)

 

[Forbidden Technique]

I didn't read S2 properly.



Actually, he can focus on both offense and defense simultaneously by increasing his numbers with shadow clones.



Why? Although it's a very linear attack and Gaara should be able to dodge, if executed by a shadow clone from a blind spot it could work. Sand defense isn't cutting it either considering Enma has enough force to push Kyubi outside the Leaf village walls. Though Gaara can compensate for blind spots by using Third Eye.



Hiruzen can

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like Gai repelled Gaara's sand (

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)(

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), although that's situational of course. His sand arms are stronger than Hiruzen but not Enma since Enma has the force to push the Kyubi out of the village. (

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)

Yeah, cutting his reserves in half each time in an attempt to defend against Gaaras overwhelming combos with insufficient defenses? What are Hiruzens counters for large scale sand tsunami's, immediately followed by sand assualts under his feet, and then large scale sand hail from up above, etc., without inevitably getting caught in a huge sand pyramid? Meanwhile, Gaara is shielded with sand that doesn't falter to a

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combo, and even still, it can be replaced with more sand a whole lot easier then it would take Hiruzen to weaken it.


Third eye, sand clones, field of vision being much bigger due to being aerial, and the fact that Gaara can simply catch himself immediately with sand if he gets knocked off. Not that it'll ever happen in the first place.


Hiruzen isn't whisking away large scale sand assualts that will be persistently surrounding him [

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], resulting in a sand pyramid. He can try, but we both know Gaara will win that battle soon as Hiruzen burns himself out. That doesn't stop Gaara from removing enma out of Hiruzens grasp.

 

[Beans2]

Yeah, cutting his reserves in half each time in an attempt to defend against Gaaras overwhelming combos with insufficient defenses? What are Hiruzens counters for large scale sand tsunami's, immediately followed by sand assualts under his feet, and then large scale sand hail from up above, etc., without inevitably getting caught in a huge sand pyramid? Meanwhile, Gaara is shielded with sand that doesn't falter to a

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combo, and even still, it can be replaced with more sand a whole lot easier then it would take Hiruzen to weaken it.

Only old Hiruzen has stamina issues and I'm pretty sure OP didn't mean old Hiruzen. He gave Hiruzen Edo feats and Edo Hiruzen made five kage bunshins and had them each use an attack without trouble. And I didn't say he would make bunshins for defensive purposes, only to allow him to multitask on both offense and defense which you claimed Hiruzen couldn't do...? Large scale sand tsunamis can be blocked with an earth wall or evaded by propelling himself out of the range with Enma pole, and sand assaults from under his feet can be held off with raiton stream or whisked away with Enma like Hiruzen did with god tree branches. Sand hail from above is blasted away with ease by Hiruzen's fuuton and he isn't getting ensnared by a pyramid when he can propel himself out of the area via Enma pole faster than Gaara can trap him in a sand pyramid.

His sand working in a combination attack with suiton and raiton involved doesn't equate to his sand being immune to suiton and raiton attacks. Pretty sure the lightning was forcing the sand to stick to Madara's body. We can see that Hiruzen's

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has a large enough scale to bust through standard ultimate defense and if Gaara compensates by adding more sand Hiruzen can fuel his attack with suiton to weaken the sand then follow up with the raiton stream to tear through it.

Third eye, sand clones, field of vision being much bigger due to being aerial, and the fact that Gaara can simply catch himself immediately with sand if he gets knocked off. Not that it'll ever happen in the first place.

Why would it never happen in the first place?

Hiruzen isn't whisking away large scale sand assualts that will be persistently surrounding him [

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], resulting in a sand pyramid. He can try, but we both know Gaara will win that battle soon as Hiruzen burns himself out. That doesn't stop Gaara from removing enma out of Hiruzens grasp.

No, but he can whisk away sand arms trying to grab Enma and seperate them from him, and other sand assaults coming at him from below. Larger sand tsunamis coming from his front or sides can be blocked with earth walls, hindered by powerful fuuton gusts, or evaded by Hiruzen propelling himself upward out of the area where the pyramid is being formed. Hiruzen isn't getting burned out unless this is old Hiruzen, and I'm pretty sure OP was referring to alive Hiruzen in his prime. Gaara may or may not win this, but it's clearly a high difficulty fight either way and I'm pretty sure Gaara won't have nearly as easy of a time as you might think he does.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Only old Hiruzen has stamina issues and I'm pretty sure OP didn't mean old Hiruzen. He gave Hiruzen Edo feats and Edo Hiruzen made five kage bunshins and had them each use an attack without trouble. And I didn't say he would make bunshins for defensive purposes, only to allow him to multitask on both offense and defense which you claimed Hiruzen couldn't do...? Large scale sand tsunamis can be blocked with an earth wall or evaded by propelling himself out of the range with Enma pole, and sand assaults from under his feet can be held off with raiton stream or whisked away with Enma like Hiruzen did with god tree branches. Sand hail from above is blasted away with ease by Hiruzen's fuuton and he isn't getting ensnared by a pyramid when he can propel himself out of the area via Enma pole faster than Gaara can trap him in a sand pyramid.

His sand working in a combination attack with suiton and raiton involved doesn't equate to his sand being immune to suiton and raiton attacks. Pretty sure the lightning was forcing the sand to stick to Madara's body. We can see that Hiruzen's

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has a large enough scale to bust through standard ultimate defense and if Gaara compensates by adding more sand Hiruzen can fuel his attack with suiton to weaken the sand then follow up with the raiton stream to tear through it.

OP stated Hiruzen has Edo Hiruzen feats. Hiruzen was brought back in the same form he died. In case you didn't know, a shinobi can perform everything he/she can do as an Edo zombie; just on a smaller scale or less degree. That is because an Edo has the same amount of chakra as when they were alive, only it never runs out. So this Hiruzen can perform the same jutsu, but he isn't going to be able to spam it, and he will feel fatigue from it. Yes, I said Hiruzen couldn't do both on his own unlike Gaara did, in order to force you into bringing up the Kage Bunshin arguement, which will deplete his chakra a whole lot faster and leave Hiruzen unable to spam his large scale elemental techniques.

A stand still Earth Wall isn't going to do a serviceable job at blocking something that can freely move around and above it at Gaaras will. Plus, the fact that Hiruzen will be throwing a whole lot of chakra into a wall large enough to match Gaara's sand tsunami. Enmas pole extension has never shown to be nearly as fast as you're depending it to be, considering Orochimaru was reacting to it very comfortably. So you're going to have to show some proof on how it's going to continuously outspeed Gaaras sand; which was proving to be serviceable in fights with top tier speedsters like Minato, Gai, and Kakashi. Hiruzen can keep on utilzing his fuuton, raiton, and pole to defend against Gaara's sand assault combos... he's going to lose in a battle of attrition so it's not even worth the arguement.

But it does though. Hiruzens suition is going to do the same thing as Mei's did, make Gaaras sand wet. Unfortunately for Hiruzen, wet sand doesn't hinder Gaara's sand manipulation or attacks by any notable margin, as it was still capable of trapping Madara in a sand coffin. Again, Raiton isn't the sands weakness [

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]. Only strong penetrative attacks are. Already we'ere assuming Hiruzen has about 5 or so Kage Bunshins, and spamming large scale elemental attacks, which isn't within Hiruzens capability. And I haven't even factored Gaara matching him with Suna Bunshins to prolong this battle to strain Hiruzen even further.

Why would it never happen in the first place?

Because the reasons I stated in my previous post, in addition to the fact that Enma's pole extension isn't even fast. Furthermore, that feat of Enma's pull pushing Kurama back was off panel and doesn't add up considering it didn't push Orochimaru back [

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]. So I have no reason to believe it'll overpower Gaaras sand defenses.

No, but he can whisk away sand arms trying to grab Enma and seperate them from him, and other sand assaults coming at him from below. Larger sand tsunamis coming from his front or sides can be blocked with earth walls, hindered by powerful fuuton gusts, or evaded by Hiruzen propelling himself upward out of the area where the pyramid is being formed. Hiruzen isn't getting burned out unless this is old Hiruzen, and I'm pretty sure OP was referring to alive Hiruzen in his prime. Gaara may or may not win this, but it's clearly a high difficulty fight either way and I'm pretty sure Gaara won't have nearly as easy of a time as you might think he does.

Pretty much addressed all of this already.

 

[Conspirator.]

Gaara wins 1 and 3, but loses S2.

 

[KCN]

Gaara would whoop his ass. He loses S2, but wins the rest. Fighting Gaara you need good movement/reactions or at least hard counters. Hiruzen lacks that. He gets his ass whooped and resigns as Hokage.

 

[Beans2]

OP stated Hiruzen has Edo Hiruzen feats. Hiruzen was brought back in the same form he died. In case you didn't know, a shinobi can perform everything he/she can do as an Edo zombie; just on a smaller scale or less degree. That is because an Edo has the same amount of chakra as when they were alive, only it never runs out. So this Hiruzen can perform the same jutsu, but he isn't going to be able to spam it, and he will feel fatigue from it. Yes, I said Hiruzen couldn't do both on his own unlike Gaara did, in order to force you into bringing up the Kage Bunshin arguement, which will deplete his chakra a whole lot faster and leave Hiruzen unable to spam his large scale elemental techniques.

A stand still Earth Wall isn't going to do a serviceable job at blocking something that can freely move around and above it at Gaaras will. Plus, the fact that Hiruzen will be throwing a whole lot of chakra into a wall large enough to match Gaara's sand tsunami. Enmas pole extension has never shown to be nearly as fast as you're depending it to be, considering Orochimaru was reacting to it very comfortably. So you're going to have to show some proof on how it's going to continuously outspeed Gaaras sand; which was proving to be serviceable in fights with top tier speedsters like Minato, Gai, and Kakashi. Hiruzen can keep on utilzing his fuuton, raiton, and pole to defend against Gaara's sand assault combos... he's going to lose in a battle of attrition so it's not even worth the arguement.

But it does though. Hiruzens suition is going to do the same thing as Mei's did, make Gaaras sand wet. Unfortunately for Hiruzen, wet sand doesn't hinder Gaara's sand manipulation or attacks by any notable margin, as it was still capable of trapping Madara in a sand coffin. Again, Raiton isn't the sands weakness [

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]. Only strong penetrative attacks are. Already we'ere assuming Hiruzen has about 5 or so Kage Bunshins, and spamming large scale elemental attacks, which isn't within Hiruzens capability. And I haven't even factored Gaara matching him with Suna Bunshins to prolong this battle to strain Hiruzen even further.





Because the reasons I stated in my previous post, in addition to the fact that Enma's pole extension isn't even fast. Furthermore, that feat of Enma's pull pushing Kurama back was off panel and doesn't add up considering it didn't push Orochimaru back [

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]. So I have no reason to believe it'll overpower Gaaras sand defenses.




Pretty much addressed all of this already.

If this is old Hiruzen then there's no argument to be made as he obviously loses.

 

[makosheva7]

If this is old Hiruzen then there's no argument to be made as he obviously loses.

Nope not an old hiruzen, just a normal aged hiruzen with feats shown by edo old hiruzen.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Nope not an old hiruzen, just a normal aged hiruzen with feats shown by edo old hiruzen.

Even then, at his old age he was able to jump on top of Sage Deity Gates with no problem, which heights are on par with Juubi. Hiruzen's speed and mobility is being underrated here.

 

[Nattana]

Hiruzen may have Edo feats, but his alive self has no chakra to even use such techniques. Gaara wins all scenarios.