Danzō Shimura vs Mū
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Lawd Jesus take the wheel.
I lost simple because i forfeited nothing more nothing less. So please explain how i lost very badly when i quit? I can see if we had judges and i lost 3 to none. Smh BAC2 let's not go there because your debating skillz are like 7days weak. Nuff said just destroyed you in that Susanoo durability thread etc...
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Lawd Jesus take the wheel.
I lost simple because i forfeited nothing more nothing less. So please explain how i lost very badly when i quit? I can see if we had judges and i lost 3 to none. Smh BAC2 let's not go there because your debating skillz are like 7days weak. Nuff said just destroyed you in that Susanoo durability thread etc...
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You were one-shotted in that debate and then tried to come up with excuses why you quit not wanting to admit the truth. Not about to list the reasons why you're completely wrong in that Susano'o durability thread, nor am I going to rub it in that you got one shotted in a debate so you quit...I'm keeping this thread on topic and only ask that you dont interfere with my debates. So the door is that way....
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Excuses weren't needed i didn't want to do it anymore so i quit simple. Admit the truth about what? @Bold Says the man that denied 6scans L0l. Let me ask you a question and be honest do you realllllllly think that post was un-counter-able?
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Funny how that's the same thread where you got negged by Kifflom im biting those words now.
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Don't try to post your counter to prove something to me remember im the guy who got one shotted Lmao.
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Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dudududududuuduuuu.
Dun dudududu dun dun dun dudududududu dun duuuuuuuuuuuu.
Dun dudududu dun dun dun dudududududu dun duuuuuuuuuuuu.
He's hiding it from chakra sensory, evident from Kabuto's statement in the VIZ which is in a chakra sensory context. It's being hidden, but what you fail to realise is that it's being hidden INSIDE his body. And that means it's still there, and as I showed with Sasuke's case, he can see through dense substances like the body, meaning he'll do the same to Mu. So unless the chakra is being turned invisible (which you would need to prove) then there's no debate here.
Which is where my previous argument comes into play.. Chakra is felt as shown with Kurama. However, it's usually not capable of being felt by non-sensors unless the chakra is so powerful that the chakra is massively large and powerful quantities. Keyword there: felt. On the other hand, Sharingan sees chakra, feeling isn't even in the same category. Kinesthetic and visual sensory. They are absolutely and indubitably different. How you still go on about if you can't feel it then you can't see it is beyond me. You suggest that because Mu can put down his chakra level low enough to a non-sensable amount, that he can also avoid the Sharingan. Yet I showed you a scan of Sharingan seeing the faintest traces of chakra. So what exactly are you getting at here? Why it can't be felt (sensed) is absolutely irrelevant to me, chakra sensing was never elaborated on and thus very low quantities are limiters of it. On the other hand, Sharingan sees faint traces and is not limited to any chakra quantity. And it doesn't feel, it sees. So unless you can make a legitamate counter argument as to why the Sharingan would fail; it won't. And remember.. Hiding chakra=from sensors. No chakra or form=from sensors. Not being felt=by sensors. There is absolutely 0 dojutsu limiters, none, because chakra is inside Mu's body (being hidden from chakra sensors, you can't hide chakra from Donutsu users). [if you're going to tell me again that feeling=seeing then there's no point in debating this, because deductive reasoning does not work like that]
This is completely wrong. In the same scan you just referenced Kabuto literally said
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. No chakra boy, that was never referred to or implied to be in a chakra sensory context at all. You assume that hiding chakra = only hiding it from sensors, when that's not the case at all and never was said to be. When Mu goes invisible, his entire body goes invisible, his skin, hair, clothes, organs, and chakra. Which is something Kabuto blatantly said.You're 100% assuming here. You're assuming that sensing is just a refined way of feeling chakra which non-sensors can do, when this was never said or implied, at all, in the manga. You're assuming that Mu isn't completely erasing his chakra, and that he's rather just lowering his chakra levels to the point where they can't be detected. Non sensors feeling chakra in high quantities is completely irrelevant because a) you're just assuming that Mu is only lowering his chakra levels and b) non sensors have seen chakra in large quantities as well (
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). I don't care about sharingan seeing the faintest traces of chakra, if the chakra is invisible then sharingan can't see it.So Mu has no form in a literal context? You're grasping on straws here. If he didn't have form then Gaara's sensing wouldn't have spotted him; yet it did. If he had no chakra in a literal context; he'd be dead. How hard is it for you to concede Mu's vulnerability to Dojutsu? My god.. His chakra goes invisbile? Based on what? Lmao, just a second ago it was lowering his chakra levels, now it's making the chakra invisible? Stop grasping at straws.
Hm, since you don't succumb to logic, give me your stance on Mu's chakra suppression. Or is your only stance 'deny anything that can make Mu vulnerable to Dojutsu users'? Make a stance, as you have not yet. And denying all my deductive explanations when you cannot make a single explanation for Mu's own invisibility is rather silly, don't you think? Either way, chakra cannot go invisible. His body goes invisible to the naked eye because he manipulates water particles in his body. How exactly does that make him invisible to the Sharingan who disregards where light is reflected or absorbed, as evident by it seeing through dense objects?
Kabuto was obviously referring to Mu's invisibility when he said he had no form. I'm not grasping at straws, just using logic and mangaphux. I never said to take that scan literally, you just used it as evidence to prove that Kabuto was only talking in a chakra sensory context, and I refuted that because Kabuto wasn't talking about it in a chakra sensory context, at all. Kabuto said, "he had no chakra." While that statement may or may not be a hyperbole, you can't just flat out deny it and say "Kabuto meant his chakra can't be sensed by sensor types" since there's no evidence or even implication that that was what Kabuto meant. Uh, yes his chakra goes invisible? Just like the rest of his entire body? You are saying that Mu can turn his skin, clothes, and organ systems invisible but not his chakra? Is there just a chakra network floating around while the rest of his body is invisible? No there isn't. I never claimed that Mu lowered his chakra, you did, I was very vocal in my saying otherwise. Stop saying I'm grasping at straws, I'm not, I'm just pointing out your arguments are only based on assumptions and have no real evidence, and you're also being rude to me when I'm trying to remain civil.
My stance is that Mu turns his chakra invisible when he hides it. I'm denying your "deductive explanations" because they're completely wrong. They're not deductive explanations at all, they're speculation without a shred of evidence. You can't say "my hypothesis stands until proven otherwise" - no, that's not the way it works, I don't care about your hypothesis since its based on stuff that's not true, unless you can prove to me two things:
1. That when normal people feel chakra, it is the same as sensing chakra like sensors do
2. Muu is only lowering his chakra levels, not turning them invisible
Given the fact that Mu's chakra could not be sensed, that means that his chakra is hidden in addition to him being invisible...so actually, dojutsu can't see him unless proven otherwise, not the other way around. I'm taking that databook translation with a grain of salt, since you were the one who gave me a very rough translation and said yourself that the translation was yet to be deciphered, but I'll explain my thoughts on it regardless: we know Mu can't mold chakra when he's invisible, so that means the very technique he uses isn't something that needs to be constantly maintained but rather something that can be switched on and off, just like his lightened boulder technique, which he uses to fly. When he switches on the technique, the water particles in his body change in some way (which is unclear) to make him invisible. Yet that translation doesn't explain why he can't be sensed, so there is obviously another part to that jutsu which relates to hiding his chakra, since the databook made no mention of hiding chakra.
So far there are three pieces of evidence that point in the direction saying Muu can't be seen with dojutsu:
1. Kabuto's
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("he had no chakra")2. The fact that he can't be sensed with chakra-based sensing (
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)3. The fact that he can't use jinton or mold chakra when he's invisible, meaning he's not putting up any sort of "anti-sensor shield", and he's actually erasing his chakra.
And on top of that, Mu has a ridiculous amount of hype and was even called "the null man".
Whereas there's no evidence at all stating that dojutsu would perceive Muu, there's only speculation on your part. I need to see a good argument in your next post which actually has evidence instead of what you call "deductive explanations" (speculation).
Dustless Bewildering Cover
Mu's Invisibility Jutsu databook information
Using Water Vapor to bend light into a prism, any solid matter's and shape is changed and creates a phantom image (?....this line is extremely confusing, so I may have this wrong). The jutsu strong point is it's control over water....something I don't really follow again really confusing. "Mujin Aisai". By manipulating water particles ones presence is erased.
Using water to bend light, resulting in nothing being shown. Its an optic camoflage, similar to "Karakuri". What is is Karakuri, I have no clue (is it a reference to Kishi's first mange Karakuri?, or was there a Jutsu called "Karakuri").
Mu's Invisibility Jutsu databook information
Using Water Vapor to bend light into a prism, any solid matter's and shape is changed and creates a phantom image (?....this line is extremely confusing, so I may have this wrong). The jutsu strong point is it's control over water....something I don't really follow again really confusing. "Mujin Aisai". By manipulating water particles ones presence is erased.
Using water to bend light, resulting in nothing being shown. Its an optic camoflage, similar to "Karakuri". What is is Karakuri, I have no clue (is it a reference to Kishi's first mange Karakuri?, or was there a Jutsu called "Karakuri").
The Byakugan has
Danzo takes this high difficulty IMO. Jinton won't help Mu because he isn't using it continuously for ten (eleven with Shisui's eye) minutes straight. Going invisible will help but after Mu stabs Danzo, Danzo knows Mu's position and can target that position. Danzo has enough time to eventually take Mu down using this strategy.
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when it comes to detection but Ao, a
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,
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. Danzo takes this high difficulty IMO. Jinton won't help Mu because he isn't using it continuously for ten (eleven with Shisui's eye) minutes straight. Going invisible will help but after Mu stabs Danzo, Danzo knows Mu's position and can target that position. Danzo has enough time to eventually take Mu down using this strategy.
You cannot make your own argument a manga statement. Look, this is absolute fact.
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This means that in a literal context; he has no form (yet he produces footsteps wadafack) and he has no chakra (yet he is alive wadafack). Thus it's not in a literal context. So we can then look at the most fitting context, which in this case, is chakra sensory context. He has no chakra for a chakra sensor to sense, manga fact. His form cannot be perceived by a chakra sensor, manga fact. His form cannot be perceived by a Dojutsu user? Baseless assumption, hence it stands as a chakra sensory context. And the rest is irrelevant, because thinking he had no chakra in a literal context is contradictory to manga facts. And that is not how the jutsu works..... Light is bending around Mu, so he's not capable of being seen by the normal pair of eyes. For normal eyes, in order to see, there must be light. Light reflects off of people and things, and if you look at the thing/person reflecting the light, it enters your eyes. On the other hand, the Sharingan does not work that way. How do I know? Because he saw through dense 'things' [
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][
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]. Thus light reflecting is irrelevant to the Sharingan, meaning the light bending around Mu is too. And I apologise for being rude.But that's not true, since Mu is only bending light around him. Nothing suggests his own chakra actually goes invisible, and even if it did, it'd only be because of light bending, which is not relevant to the Sharingan. So it's not even a hypothesis at this point, it's a fact, light is not relevant to the Sharingan which sees through things that are reflecting light if there is chakra behind.
1. It was merely an option since you wouldn't give me any of your own arguments, but rather would only counter and keep your own stance to yourself. And it's extremely likely, since Orochimaru said "they can feel chakra even though they are not sensors", meaning it's the same exact thing, but on a different scale (since they can't do it to low chakra quantities).
2. He's hiding his chakra inside his body, not turning them invisible. Light is bending around him to prevent reflection. Nothing more, nothing less. Sharingan sees him.
Already proved otherwise. You wanting to take that DB with a grain of salt is not relevant to me. It's the only thing we have to base Mu's invisibility on, and the bending light part is absolutely certain. Everything else could be extremely minute for all we know. However, what we do know, is that his invisibility revolves around bending light; it's already been deciphered. The water particles could simply be produced from before hand, and then be capable of staying their themselves. Meaning he no longer needs chakra to maintain it, similar to heavy weighted boulder (as you said). The other part is Karin's chakra hiding, which won't do anything but hide it in himself. However, saying that there is nothing to point to Sharingan being able to perceive him is your own burden of proof. Sharingan sees chakra wherever it is present regardless of light and invisible chakra. Either you prove that Sharingan fails, or it won't.
And on top of that, Mu has a ridiculous amount of hype and was even called "the null man".
Whereas there's no evidence at all stating that dojutsu would perceive Muu, there's only speculation on your part. I need to see a good argument in your next post which actually has evidence instead of what you call "deductive explanations" (speculation).[/QUOTE]
1. Chakra sensory context; established long ago (especially since his form would be seen since it's bending light, something the Sharingan will see through and thus spot his body from the get-go).
2. Feeling chakra=/=seeing chakra, as I have said several times now.
3. Because he's hiding his chakra within his body, meaning the normal chakra workings are not admissible. Don't really see how this acts as proof of anything.
Good for him.
Not how it works. That's like saying since Konohamaru was not shown to be hurt by Raiton, there's not evidence pointing towards the fact that he can be hurt by it. I have shown you why the Sharingan sees him, and you continuously claiming that seeing=feeling is not getting you anywhere. Chakra sensors failing is not proof of Sharingan failing.
Do you believe your own words when you say that Mu was present during the 5 Kage Summit? Lol.
Danzo low-mid diff.
