Orochimaru vs Itachi.

[TRE MERCER]

You wanted this win for Orochimaru to bad allowing him to plain out use Hashirama feats...

 

[blazekev90]

All the hypotheticals aren't needed. Zestu Orochimaru with its feats alone are enough to defeat Itachi. Idk what Blaze Release is talking about.

 

[Nattana]

You Oro fans are persistent, like your fav character ill give you that.
However he bites the dust yet again.

1. Zetsu argument.
As somebody has said already the feats demonstrated by spiral zetsu and the common zetsu who got slaughtered like sheep are two different things. Even if we were to assume that the common zetsu gets the same feats as spiral zetsu obito, his mokuton feats still wouldn't pose a threat to Itachi or any kage tier ninja.

Another thing you forget is that the mokuton strength of spiral zetsu is determined by who it encases. Obito literally had a part of hashirama's dna slapped on him, but also had the uchiha strong chakra. That is why he managed those mokuton feat and that wasn't even impressive.

With yamato his mokuton even increased further.
What i am trying to say is that a zetsu body orochimaru encased by spiral zetsu still wouldn't have the mokuton strength of spiral obito or spiral yamato.

In mokuton it is
Hashirama > Madara > Spiral Yamato > Yamato > Spiral Obito > Obito > Spiral Orochimaru > Fodder zetsu Orochimaru.

His zetsu mokuton would not be greatly increased even by spiral zetsu as it isn't that strong to begin with. Its this very reason why he will not even be able to produce mokuton feats of part 1 edo Hashirama who's mokuton feats are still superior to yamato's. Likewise even if we give him part 1 edo hashirama's mokuton, it still isn't strong enough if you consider that enma was able to protect old hiruzen and but also destroy the trees. Replace enma with susanoo and its all game. Amaterasu will also have a say in this. If old hiruzen can survive edo hashirama mokuton, see no reason itachi cannot.

2. Techniques he already. Mute point. Apart from edo tensei which got taken away, we still don't know what other techniques he had. Regardless when he was defeated by orochimaru and left the organisation due to this defeat at the hands of itachi he had these techniques. On the same note Orochimaru admitted inferiority from that event where he had his full techniques. Lets not forget that his strongest technique which was the hydra has been defeated already so any lesser techniques that he had that was sealed away wouldn't pose as much of a threat as his strongest technique.

Orochimaru regardless of his 'upgrade' if you can call it that, still strongest technique is the hydra

Orochimaru bits the dust for the 3rd time with mid to high diff.

Scenario 2. Stripping Itachi of everything to do with his sharingan and only restricting orochimaru from zetsu or edo tensei is basically non sharingan itachi vs sannin orochmaru. He doesn't have the techniques to put him down in this form so oro takes it mid diff

Orochimaru mastered Hashi DNA seconds after he got Zetsu body. Increased ET binding power, several times increased Shadow Snake Hands. Also, your whole argument about Guruguru means nothing, especially that we've seen MANY times throughout the manga that Hashi DNA/Zetsu body parts allow usage of Mokuton. Now when you think of it, you should realise that current Zetsu Orochimaru has WAY more Mokuton potential than kid Obito (whose feats I gave to Oro), since Orochimaru had his chakra praised by Kisame and Nagato, was said to have one the strongest lifeforces in NV and has 100% Zetsu body and not 50% like Obito.

Moreover, prior to taking over Zetsu, Orochimaru said he had knowledge on EVERYTHING White Zetsu can do, including his sensory abilities. Considering that we've seen how Obito/Yamato/Madara could use Mokuton/Mokuton clones/Mayfly/sensing/etc., there's no reason to hold it back from Orochimaru, who spent years experimenting on Hashi DNA AND has Kabuto's intel as well.

 

[Selan]

You Oro fans are persistent, like your fav character ill give you that.
However he bites the dust yet again.

1. Zetsu argument.
As somebody has said already the feats demonstrated by spiral zetsu and the common zetsu who got slaughtered like sheep are two different things. Even if we were to assume that the common zetsu gets the same feats as spiral zetsu obito, his mokuton feats still wouldn't pose a threat to Itachi or any kage tier ninja.

Another thing you forget is that the mokuton strength of spiral zetsu is determined by who it encases. Obito literally had a part of hashirama's dna slapped on him, but also had the uchiha strong chakra. That is why he managed those mokuton feat and that wasn't even impressive.

With yamato his mokuton even increased further.
What i am trying to say is that a zetsu body orochimaru encased by spiral zetsu still wouldn't have the mokuton strength of spiral obito or spiral yamato.

In mokuton it is
Hashirama > Madara > Spiral Yamato > Yamato > Spiral Obito > Obito > Spiral Orochimaru > Fodder zetsu Orochimaru.

His zetsu mokuton would not be greatly increased even by spiral zetsu as it isn't that strong to begin with. Its this very reason why he will not even be able to produce mokuton feats of part 1 edo Hashirama who's mokuton feats are still superior to yamato's. Likewise even if we give him part 1 edo hashirama's mokuton, it still isn't strong enough if you consider that enma was able to protect old hiruzen and but also destroy the trees. Replace enma with susanoo and its all game. Amaterasu will also have a say in this. If old hiruzen can survive edo hashirama mokuton, see no reason itachi cannot.

2. Techniques he already. Mute point. Apart from edo tensei which got taken away, we still don't know what other techniques he had. Regardless when he was defeated by orochimaru and left the organisation due to this defeat at the hands of itachi he had these techniques. On the same note Orochimaru admitted inferiority from that event where he had his full techniques. Lets not forget that his strongest technique which was the hydra has been defeated already so any lesser techniques that he had that was sealed away wouldn't pose as much of a threat as his strongest technique.

Orochimaru regardless of his 'upgrade' if you can call it that, still strongest technique is the hydra

Orochimaru bits the dust for the 3rd time with mid to high diff.

Scenario 2. Stripping Itachi of everything to do with his sharingan and only restricting orochimaru from zetsu or edo tensei is basically non sharingan itachi vs sannin orochmaru. He doesn't have the techniques to put him down in this form so oro takes it mid diff

This.

 

[ARGUS]

Itachi still wins this mid diff at most

--regardless of his zetsu body, orochimaru has still shown no immunity or any viable coutners to genjutsu at all, and with tsukuyomi on the agenda, orochimaru gets mind raped and finished before he does anything at all

--using summons such as manda is also not helping him when genjutsu can simply turn them against him,

--none of orochimarus attacks are cutting it against susanoo either, which pulverises orochimaru as itachi then seals him in with totsuka,therefore rendering his durability or regeneration useless

 

[Draegod]

Itachi still wins this mid diff at most

--regardless of his zetsu body, orochimaru has still shown no immunity or any viable coutners to genjutsu at all, and with tsukuyomi on the agenda, orochimaru gets mind raped and finished before he does anything at all

--using summons such as manda is also not helping him when genjutsu can simply turn them against him,

--none of orochimarus attacks are cutting it against susanoo either, which pulverises orochimaru as itachi then seals him in with totsuka,therefore rendering his durability or regeneration useless

Genjutsu? That is the most easist thing to deal with since he is aware. Oru literally counters his entire arsenal no diff.

Oru wins no more then mid diff bruh.

 

[Blaze Release]

All the hypotheticals aren't needed. Zestu Orochimaru with its feats alone are enough to defeat Itachi. Idk what Blaze Release is talking about.

Zetsu Orochimaru has no feats of mokuton. If anything is the those arguing for orochimaru that are being hypothetical.
What i have said is all true and i am willing to prove it if needs be. Orochimaru in his new zetsu body will still not be able to produce mokuton on the level of forget hash/mads, spiral obito or yamato, spiral yamato.

Orochimaru mastered Hashi DNA seconds after he got Zetsu body. Increased ET binding power, several times increased Shadow Snake Hands. Also, your whole argument about Guruguru means nothing, especially that we've seen MANY times throughout the manga that Hashi DNA/Zetsu body parts allow usage of Mokuton. Now when you think of it, you should realise that current Zetsu Orochimaru has WAY more Mokuton potential than kid Obito (whose feats I gave to Oro), since Orochimaru had his chakra praised by Kisame and Nagato, was said to have one the strongest lifeforces in NV and has 100% Zetsu body and not 50% like Obito.

Forgive me, i should one of these days take my time and read the last 50 chapters because honestly it appears i am making stupid mistakes. You know when i said Obito had hashirama's dna, that was my mistake. Recent information tells us that, that was Madara's mistake and that the zetsu's are nothing more that dead fodder who were under IT during kaguya's reign.The reason they seem to have similar dna structure to Hashirama is because hashirama's power/dna is shown to be very similar and it appears to be a lesser form of shinji powers and since those dead guys who turned zetsu over time were attached to the shinji attained a similar power/change in dna although much weaker than Hashirama.

Now that the confusion has been claimed up.
These are the more or less the powers of white zetsu:
Mayfly
Subtitute
Parasite clone
Chakra absorbing
Sensing
Degree of self healing

White zetsu by himself hasn't actually used any mokuton technique and im not talking abiut turning into a tree either.
Even if we claim they can use mokuton and i agree they should be able to, it will be on a such low level that it will not increase Orochimaru's overall powers and even after taking over zetsu, orochimaru didn't even show any mokuton, the technique he did show was hidden snake hands and that was it and its no surprise as his snake abilities are simple above zetsu level mokuton. Not sure why people are claiming zetsu mokuton as if that is some extraordinary feat, but it isn't because even after gaining an increase in strength with hashirama's dna through yamato, they were still slaughtered like pigs.

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All those who actually have hashirama's real dna and not a dead guy turned zetsu who's dna has been altered have simply better mokuton.

Hashi
Mads
Yamato
Danzo

All have superior mokuton feats. Than the likes of Obito or Orochimaru if he was to show mokuton.

The problem with you claiming zetsu orochimaru will have superior mokuton than Kid obito because he has superior chakra than the kid is futile. Both Orochimaru and kid Obito have zetsu. However kid obito had the added bonus of being encased in spiral zetsu which is canonically shown to greatly increase the mokuton feats and that makes sense too. Therefore feats aside, spiral zestu obito will always have superior mokuton than white zetsu orchimaru

Moreover, prior to taking over Zetsu, Orochimaru said he had knowledge on EVERYTHING White Zetsu can do, including his sensory abilities. Considering that we've seen how Obito/Yamato/Madara could use Mokuton/Mokuton clones/Mayfly/sensing/etc., there's no reason to hold it back from Orochimaru, who spent years experimenting on Hashi DNA AND has Kabuto's intel as well.

That is what you do not seem to get. Zetsu are not capable of producing the same level of mokuton as hashirama or those with hasirama's actual dna (mads, yam, dan). So no matter how much of knowledge Orochimaru has done. The body he has doesn't have the capabilities to produce those mokuton feats you are trying to give zetsu that he actually hasn't even shown. Orochimaru will produce the same level of mokuton that are capable by white zetsu and nothing further.

He isn't taking over a white zetsu and producing hashi/madara/spiral yamato/yamato/spiral obito level mokuton. Get that out of your head

Back to the battle.
Even with the slight improvements gained by Orochimaru from taking over zetsu, zetsu abilities are far inferior to orochimaru's own abilities/powers and will resort to it. It will give him advantages such as healing and sensing which may or may not go along way, but actually make orochimaru stronger overall, no. Same reason why Obito doesn't even bother with whatever mokuton he can use and uses kamui/uchiha powers. Even if you give him edo hashirama P1 mokuton feats we have seen what enma can do. Susanoo will be more than enough if Enma can protect hiruzen and destroy mokuton.

Susanoo > Enma
Itachi > old Hiruzen

If Enma + Hiruzen can survive that. Itachi with susanoo isn't having trouble.
It is going to come back again to orochmaru and his snake abilities vs itachi and we all know how that goes

 

[Bogard]

Zetsu feats can't be given to Orochimaru once again. I'll just requote myself U_U

To use techniques, it comes down to skills. Some of them requires years of training time to create/perform them(if you could even perform them to begin with). Even Uchiha geniuses like Sasuke(surpassing Orochimaru's own to his own admission [

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]) couldn't perform C-Rank Katon techniques without intense training [

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] [

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] despite having being taught the seals a while ago already [

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].

Spiral Zetsu was surprised that Obito who possess half a Zetsu body had the skills to perform the Mokuton sashiki so fast without training [

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], telling him he now knows why Madara choosed him(because of his quick learning potential). There is nothing in the manga that shows or even implies Orochimaru could perform every single technique of the user he possess with the fushi tensei no jutsu.

At least half Obito's body is made of Zetsu(cells he controls perfectly unlike others like Danzo on his own admission), he has full knowledge on them for obvious reasons even more so than Orochimaru, yet he never showed the capability to use their ninjutsu like mayfly, sensing, telepathy, spore clones and so on. There is nothing that suggest Orochimaru's capability to use them even with his knowledge.

Like i've already mentioned, to create/perform a technique, it requires some times years of training(if you even can), giving the example of a genius above Orochimaru(Sasuke) who was uncapable to use a C-Rank Katon technique despite having being taught the seals of the jutsu a while ago already. If Orochimaru could use the mayfly technique for example, he would have used it during Sasuke's dying moment in this war since the jutsu allows the user to cover large distances at high speed.

Orochimaru was worried about going as fast as possible to reach Sasuke especially after hearing about the mysterious guy, with Jugo suspecting he wants to take his body, yet he didn't think about using the mayfly technique when it's much faster, for the simple reason for me that he can't perform the technique

Talking about sensing even, Orochimaru already showed he lacked the ability, relying on Karin instead, when we know that Zetsus are powerful sensors. So no, i greatly disagree in the speculation around Orochimaru being capable to perform Zetsu jutsus because most of his body is made of their cells

So, no nothing implies Orochimaru could use Zetsu techniques

OT: Itachi wins

 

[Demonic.]

Itachi wins.

Sharingan Genjutsu, Tsukuyomi, Izanami, or Totsuka, take your pick.

Zetsu feats can't be given to Orochimaru once again. I'll just requote myself U_U



OT: Itachi wins

Good post. That fapboy giving Kabuto base Hashirama level mokuton (because he has Zetsu cells) should read this.

 

[ARGUS]

Genjutsu? That is the most easist thing to deal with since he is aware.

he cant counter genjutsu, knowing about it isnt cutting it here, when he knew about the sharingan and genjutsu, yet still fell prey against itachi and sasuke,
and itachi can engage him in CQC, and through his superior speed and reflexes, he can catch him in tsukuyomi without much problem
as once that happens, oro is done for,

Oru literally counters his entire arsenal no diff.

He cant counter tsukuyomi,
he cant counter izanami,
he cant counter totsuka,
he cant counter KA

and he gets pulverised by susanoo, and if he uses something like hydra or his true form to counter it, then hes left wide open for totsuka, and gets sealed just how he did in canon

Oru wins no more then mid diff bruh.

Other way around,
Itachi wins this mid diff at most

 

[Draegod]

he cant counter genjutsu, knowing about it isnt cutting it here, when he knew about the sharingan and genjutsu, yet still fell prey against itachi and sasuke,
and itachi can engage him in CQC, and through his superior speed and reflexes, he can catch him in tsukuyomi without much problem
as once that happens, oro is done for,

He cant counter tsukuyomi,
he cant counter izanami,
he cant counter totsuka,
he cant counter KA

and he gets pulverised by susanoo, and if he uses something like hydra or his true form to counter it, then hes left wide open for totsuka, and gets sealed just how he did in canon


Other way around,
Itachi wins this mid diff at most

Sounds like we have a match then. I have some free time to defend Oru before Christmas. Do you wanna start now or wait till the debate tourney is over?

 

[ARGUS]

Sounds like we have a match then. I have some free time to defend Oru before Christmas. Do you wanna start now or wait till the debate tourney is over?

If we get to verse each other in the debate tourney
This is definitely the match we are debating

If not. Then we'll do it after the tourney

 

[blazekev90]

Zetsu Orochimaru has no feats of mokuton. If anything is the those arguing for orochimaru that are being hypothetical.
What i have said is all true and i am willing to prove it if needs be. Orochimaru in his new zetsu body will still not be able to produce mokuton on the level of forget hash/mads, spiral obito or yamato, spiral yamato.

whether or not Orochimaru can indeed utilize mokuton is irrelevant because that's a feat I've never considered him possessing.

Zetsu feats can't be given to Orochimaru once again. I'll just requote myself U_U



OT: Itachi wins

Your post is invalid.

 

[Beans2]

Zetsu feats can't be given to Orochimaru once again. I'll just requote myself U_U



OT: Itachi wins

This doesn't prove anything