3T Sasuke vs Hebi Sasuke

[Apêx1]

Lol, what are you talking about? He used the Gudo Dama as a melee weapon and rushed right past them with it, just how anyone moving at high speed would use a melee weapon. Does that mean the weapon can move as fast as they can? No. Did that scan show the Gudo Dama extending while Juubito was moving? No. You didn't even see him move, you just saw the result of the blitz, so there is no way you can even begin to claim it extended at the same speed Juubito can move at.

Alright.

Not to mention Sasuke got blitzed by Juubito in the same chapter he performed this so called amazing speed feat, but if your argument had any merit, we'd be saying Sasuke moves faster than a weapon that extends at speeds on par with Juubito's, which is obviously false, since once again, Juubito blitzed Sasuke.

Agreed, BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke got blitzed.

Edo Hiruzen? Is this supposed to be a feat? Hiruzen is not a speedster.

Him not being a speedster does not mean he cannot evade attacks from a distance. Orochimaru landed a straight hit on v2 Naruto. Hiruzen sliced the god tree with such speed he looked like he had several hands [

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]. This is enough speed to substantiate the notion that if Hiruzen got hit from 5 meters, and Sasuke was standing 30 meters away from Naruto, that Hebi Sasuke is not 6 times the speed of Orochimaru/Hiruzen, otherwise he would've never claimed to be weaker than Oro (2 times speed is enough to warrant a blitz).

No, it isn't. Not at all. Being faster than something that tagged Hiruzen isn't a feat, and the "extending as fast as Juubito can move" stuff is obviously flawed.

Being able to cover 30 meters and intercept something that hit Hiruzen from 5 meters is nothing but a speed feat.

I've already taken that into account. Crossing that whole distance isn't a feat since that whole distance you keep referencing isn't even an extremely large difference. All you are telling me is that War Arc Sasuke is fast, not that he's fast enough to blitz Hebi Sasuke. Big difference.

Once again you fail to realise the implications of war arc against Akatsuki arc. Being able to intercept something from a Juubi Jin when Kage's failed much much inferior to being able to dodge explosions from Akatsuki periods. So until you can tell me how Hebi Sasuke is exactly keeping up with War Arc Sasuke, who posses one of the greatest speed feats in the manga, your point is moot.

Are you grasping at straws now? Hiruzen isn't a speedster.

Never said he was, still decently fast.

I looked at the scans provided. I don't know what massive distance you are trying to show here, but it's not there. Nor does anything you've

Seriously..

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And Orochimaru is a speedster? Hiruzen is a speedster? Really now? Are we serious with this nonsense?

Edo Hiruzen isn't a speedster, but his clones still moved this distance and launched a jutsu at an equivalent speed relative to the statue [

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]. Orochimaru is in fact quick, as shown against v2 Naruto and being superior to Sasuke (not necessarily meaning he's faster, but it means he's on a relatively equal level of speed.)

Lol, and who in the world are you talking about? Surely not Oro, definitely not Hiruzen since he got tagged by Juubito when the latter didn't even use Shunshin, and Sasuke's ass got blitzed at the end of Chapter 639.

What? He was flying, the same flying Juubito who tagged BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Juubito doesn't shunshin in the air, so I don't see your point? At least he was able to dodge while Juubito was flying towards him. And yes, Sasuke and Naruto's asses got blitzed. Relevance? At least Sasuke could perceive Juubit at the time, Naruto couldn't even sense him until later on (which he still had difficulty with).

So. Who in the world are you talking about?

You misconstrue. I was under the notion that the Gudo Dama were capable of keeping up with Juubito's speed.

I'm itching to post another laughing gif. Not sure why I have to explain this, but Hebi Sasuke being weaker than Orochimaru doesn't mean that Hebi Sasuke is slower than Orochimaru.

So no, I don't know what you thought this flawed comparison was going to do for you....but...lol, just no.

Good for you m8. And okay, don't see how it changes much in my argument. Unless Sasuke is vastly faster than Orochimaru, in which case Sasuke wouldn't lose since he'd outright blitz. However, that isn't the case. No way is Oro half of Sasuke's speed, I figure you realise that much.

Based on? Oh wait, nothing valid.


There is no undermining here. You are overrating the hell out of this speed feat.


You've basically conceded this part of the argument. You've failed to prove or show Sasuke outspeeding KCM Naruto's Shunshin. I've already replied to you stating he did so, no panel you provided shows him doing so, and there is definitely no portrayal that even begins to support the argument EMS Sasuke>KCM Naruto in soeed.

Lolz. Naruto gets blitzed [

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], then gets blitzed again [

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]. Sasuke reacts first [

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] and reaches the top of the Juubi's head with a massive leap [

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]. No one noticed Sasuke appear in the Kage summit room until Sasuke cutt he curtains [

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], yet they are all Kage levels, sensor or dojutsu users. Sasuke has the reflexes to evade Bee's attack in v1 [

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]. Sasuke reached Sakura first [

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]. Sasuke reaches the other side of the cave versus Kabuto nigh instantly [

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]. Blitzes first samurai [

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], then blitzes more samurai without even being perceived from opposite sides of the location [

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].

Except we aren't saying that since Hebi Sasuke's speed feats shit on Orochimaru, and Hebi Sasuke admitting he's weaker doesn't mean he's slower.

Indeed, meaning if Hebi Sasuke isn't far faster than someone who seemed on par with Hiruzen while healthy, than an edo Hiruzen would be certainly on par with Oro, and if Edo Hiruzen is at the very least 4-5 times slower than War Arc Sasuke, than Hebi Sasuke is most certainly several times slower than War Arc Sasuke who would be vastly quicker than both Edo Hiruzen and Prime Oro (Sasuke said he may lose to an Oro with no hands yet healthy, meaning it's mostly CQC he's talking about).

Fails because you think Oro>Hebi Sasuke in speed, even though you have no argument supporting it, that works anyway.

Okay, okay. Hebi being slightly faster doesn't change much.

The whole comparison fails since you've tried to say that Oro is faster than Hebi Sasuke by using Oro being stronger as evidence. Not how it works.

And portrayal? Maybe someone on NB needs to make a thread teaching people what portrayal means, because there is no portrayal for "EMS Sasuke is faster than KCM Naruto" None whatsoever.

My whole point was that EMS Sasuke being so much quicker than Edo Hiruzen, and Edo Hiruzen being around healthy Oro bodily speed, who would be around the level of Hebi Sasuke, means Hebi Sasuke is still massively inferior to War Arc Sasuke.

Yes, pls make portrayal thread so that you can aware me of your smartiness m8.

 

[KidGamer65]

Agreed, BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke got blitzed.

KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke got blitzed actually.

Him not being a speedster does not mean he cannot evade attacks from a distance. Orochimaru landed a straight hit on v2 Naruto. Hiruzen sliced the god tree with such speed he looked like he had several hands [

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]. This is enough speed to substantiate the notion that if Hiruzen got hit from 5 meters, and Sasuke was standing 30 meters away from Naruto, that Hebi Sasuke is not 6 times the speed of Orochimaru/Hiruzen, otherwise he would've never claimed to be weaker than Oro (2 times speed is enough to warrant a blitz).

Him not being a speedster means that doing something he couldn't do (speed wise) isn't a great feat.

KN4 was not only barely moving during that fight, he isn't even a speedster either.

Once again. Hiruzen is not a speedster. Swinging a staff really fast is not an amazing speed feat. You are grasping at straws here. Not to mention Hiruzen swinging a staff really fast doesn't mean that he can move the other parts of his body equally as fast. Hand speed is not overall movement speed.

Lol, Sasuke being fast enough to blitz Orochimaru doesn't mean that he's weaker than him. Is V2 Ay stronger than MS Sasuke? Nope.

Being able to cover 30 meters and intercept something that hit Hiruzen from 5 meters is nothing but a speed feat.

Sure, it's a speed feat. Is it a speed feat that lets you say War Arc Sasuke outright blitzes Hebi Sasuke, and that he can't keep up. Lol, Hell no.

There's also the fact the Juubito had to strike Naruto from a further distance than he had to strike Hiruzen from, which only lessens the quality of this speed feat. There's also the fact that Sasuke knew Naruto was in trouble before Juubito ever began to fire the Gudo Dama spear at him, which again, lessens the quality of this speed feat.

Once again you fail to realise the implications of war arc against Akatsuki arc. Being able to intercept something from a Juubi Jin when Kage's failed much much inferior to being able to dodge explosions from Akatsuki periods. So until you can tell me how Hebi Sasuke is exactly keeping up with War Arc Sasuke, who posses one of the greatest speed feats in the manga, your point is moot.

-From a Juubi Jin=/=It being extremely fast. So if this is the best you have for evidence of why War Arc Sasuke is out of Hebi's league in speed, there really is no debate on this point. Hebi Sasuke doesn't get blitzed and he keeps up just fine.

Seriously..

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-Says massive distance.

-Scan doesn't show a massive distance.

-Says distance was 30 meters.

Lol. I should be asking this question. 30m is not a massive distance.

Edo Hiruzen isn't a speedster, but his clones still moved this distance and launched a jutsu at an equivalent speed relative to the statue [

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].

Ok?

Orochimaru is in fact quick, as shown against v2 Naruto and being superior to Sasuke (not necessarily meaning he's faster, but it means he's on a relatively equal level of speed.)

Lol. I don't know where this logic is coming from, but nothing in the manga nor does any kind of common sense dictate that they are on par in speed based on the fact that one is stronger than the other.

What? He was flying, the same flying Juubito who tagged BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke.

Wrong manga. Juubito was dancing circles around Naruto and Sasuke, and then they tracked/sensed him and tagged him. He had to block with the Gudo Dama.

Juubito doesn't shunshin in the air, so I don't see your point?

My point is, he got tagged by Juubito not even using his Shunshin.

At least he was able to dodge while Juubito was flying towards him.

Who Hiruzen? He didn't dodge anything. He didn't even encounter or have to react to Juubito's movement speed, only the movement speed of the Gudo Dama, which he failed to dodge.

And yes, Sasuke and Naruto's asses got blitzed. Relevance? At least Sasuke could perceive Juubit at the time, Naruto couldn't even sense him until later on (which he still had difficulty with).

Sasuke couldn't perceive anything until chapter 650, same as Naruto, even then he was having the same exact amount of difficulty as Naruto was. If Sasuke was tracking Juubito perfectly that whole time, he wouldn't have tagged him just that one time.

You misconstrue. I was under the notion that the Gudo Dama were capable of keeping up with Juubito's speed.

Don't know who told you that.

Good for you m8. And okay, don't see how it changes much in my argument. Unless Sasuke is vastly faster than Orochimaru, in which case Sasuke wouldn't lose since he'd outright blitz. However, that isn't the case. No way is Oro half of Sasuke's speed, I figure you realise that much.

What in the world is any of this based on? Orochimaru is not weaker than Sasuke, and speed is irrelevant to that equation.


As for the next part....Oh Jesus..Lol

Lolz. Naruto gets blitzed [

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],

Learn what a blitz is. Naruto clearly stated his motive. "Catch them when they attack us". He wasn't trying to evade the Edo Jinchuuriki. Not to mention that scan doesn't show any sort of a blitz.

then gets blitzed again [

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].

Surprise attack=/=Blitz. Naruto didn't react because he didn't see the attack coming and because he was preoccupied. Not a blitz.

Sasuke reacts first [

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]

and reaches the top of the Juubi's head with a massive leap [

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].[/QUOTE]
Definitely grasping at straws here. Sasuke leaving before Naruto did=/=Sasuke being faster than Naruto is. Leaping from the Juubi's arm area to it's head, is once again, not a feat putting him above KCM Naruto in speed.

No one noticed Sasuke appear in the Kage summit room until Sasuke cutt he curtains [

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], yet they are all Kage levels, sensor or dojutsu users.

Don't really care about Sasuke's speed feats from before getting EMS, since it's already a fact that MS Sasuke is much slower than, and can't even track Ay, who is slower than KCM Naruto.

Sasuke has the reflexes to evade Bee's attack in v1 [

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].

This is a feat? A feat worth mentioning when we are comparing him to KCM Naruto? Really now?

Sasuke reached Sakura first [

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].

Already replied to this. When you can show me where him and Naruto left at the same time, and where Naruto used his Shunshin, then we can talk.

Sasuke reaches the other side of the cave versus Kabuto nigh instantly [

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].

Yeah, too bad the distance he crossed was only 50m at the most, and that's being extremely generous. It's probably 30, or something around that. Not a notable speed feat.

Blitzes first samurai [

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], then blitzes more samurai without even being perceived from opposite sides of the location [

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].

Not sure why you are using MS Sasuke feats, when it's already canon that KCM Naruto>>V2 Ay>>>>MS Sasuke in speed and reactions.

ndeed, meaning if Hebi Sasuke isn't far faster than someone who seemed on par with Hiruzen while healthy, than an edo Hiruzen would be certainly on par with Oro, and if Edo Hiruzen is at the very least 4-5 times slower than War Arc Sasuke, than Hebi Sasuke is most certainly several times slower than War Arc Sasuke who would be vastly quicker than both Edo Hiruzen and Prime Oro (Sasuke said he may lose to an Oro with no hands yet healthy, meaning it's mostly CQC he's talking about).

@bold: And when did Sasuke say this? Cause all he said is that if Orochimaru had been at full power, he would have lost. Full power=With Arms=Not just CQC. This whole Oro and Sasuke argument is just you grasping at more straws, considering it's backed by nothing but "Oro is stronger than Sasuke, so he should be at the same relative level of speed" Lmao, not how it works.

Okay, okay. Hebi being slightly faster doesn't change much.

He's way faster than Oro. All the speed feats and hype imply so, nothing implies otherwise.

My whole point was that EMS Sasuke being so much quicker than Edo Hiruzen, and Edo Hiruzen being around healthy Oro bodily speed, who would be around the level of Hebi Sasuke, means Hebi Sasuke is still massively inferior to War Arc Sasuke.

Yet you've still failed to prove that Oro and Hebi Sasuke are on the same level of speed. Oro being stronger doesn't automatically make him as fast as Sasuke.

 

[Apêx1]

Snip

I'll concede for the sake of saving us both time. You're going with the feats or gtfo and I am seeing it from an implicative perspective. Hebi's godlike speed takes the win.

 

[Unorthodox]

Hebi sasuke stomps

 

[KidGamer65]

I'll concede for the sake of saving us both time. You're going with the feats or gtfo and I am seeing it from an implicative perspective. Hebi's godlike speed takes the win.

I'll accept any kind of perspective or argumentation as long as it's valid. Whatever implication perspective you are viewing this from, is wrong. Nothing portrays or implies that War Arc Sasuke is faster than the likes of KCM Naruto, and nothing portrays that at the 3-Tomoe Level, he's stronger than he was when he had 3-Tomoe, Orochimaru's powers, and the Curse Mark.

 

[Apêx1]

I'll accept any kind of perspective or argumentation as long as it's valid. Whatever implication perspective you are viewing this from, is wrong. Nothing portrays or implies that War Arc Sasuke is faster than the likes of KCM Naruto, and nothing portrays that at the 3-Tomoe Level, he's stronger than he was when he had 3-Tomoe, Orochimaru's powers, and the Curse Mark.

Clearly not. Being faster than KCM was simply a claim based on Senjutsu construct=Senjutsu construct speed wise, Susano construct=BM construct, etc. Him reaching locations quicker, him running just as fast as Naruto, meaning the only thing that is left to determine Shunshin speed is Chakra potency and quantity released from feet. Don't see any reason as to why Naruto would win. Unless he's exerting massive amounts of chakra (which he isn't), it's based on your control of chakra, and potency of it. When Naruto and Sasuke received Rikudo power ups, their speed massively increased shunshin wise. That's directly ascribable to their chakra potency, not their chakra control or quantity. So saying Shunshin is based on something other than chakra potency and control (and partially quantity) is illogical.

Oro was simply a reference point. If Sasuke was 5 times faster than Orochimaru, he would not lose no matter what. Nothing to debate here, 5 times faster means the difference between going 200 meters in a second and a kilometre in a second. Oro wouldn't even be able to move a finger if that were the case, but it obviously wasn't. And again, I'm going by implication. Orochimaru was the main villain at the time, no way can his own pupil be capable of low diff'ing him.

 

[KidGamer65]

Clearly not. Being faster than KCM was simply a claim based on Senjutsu construct=Senjutsu construct speed wise, Susano construct=BM construct, etc.

And how does construct speed have any relation to the speed of the people inside? There is no relation, at all.

Him reaching locations quicker

Considering it wasn't a race, and they both didn't depart at the same time, no, that isn't a kind of evidence.

him running just as fast as Naruto

Ok.

meaning the only thing that is left to determine Shunshin speed is Chakra potency and quantity released from feet. Don't see any reason as to why Naruto would win. Unless he's exerting massive amounts of chakra (which he isn't), it's based on your control of chakra, and potency of it. When Naruto and Sasuke received Rikudo power ups, their speed massively increased shunshin wise. That's directly ascribable to their chakra potency, not their chakra control or quantity. So saying Shunshin is based on something other than chakra potency and control (and partially quantity) is illogical.

And this is where you have no evidence, portrayal or feats, that lead to Sasuke's Shunshin being faster than KCM Naruto's Shunshin.

Oro was simply a reference point. If Sasuke was 5 times faster than Orochimaru, he would not lose no matter what. Nothing to debate here, 5 times faster means the difference between going 200 meters in a second and a kilometre in a second. Oro wouldn't even be able to move a finger if that were the case, but it obviously wasn't. And again, I'm going by implication. Orochimaru was the main villain at the time, no way can his own pupil be capable of low diff'ing him.

Except nothing, especially not your Hiruzen comparison, even begins to prove that Sasuke is 5x faster than Orochimaru, nor does Sasuke's Shunshin being massively faster than Orochimaru's own Shunshin mean that Orochimaru is weaker. Speed isn't the only determinant of strength. Not sure how many times I have to repeat that.

 

[Strict]

That moment when people think that EMS Sasuke has better reflexes and speed than Hebi Sasuke, when he is limited to the Doujutsu Hebi Sasuke also has. Nothing changed from Itachi's defeat to war arc except that Sasuke obtained the Mangekyo Sharingan and EMS. The MS and EMS don't affect your speed and reflexes, it gives you access to powerful Nin- and Genjutsu which are restricted. Though we could say that with the EMS, the user can even better see through movements, but this is also restricted.

Hebi Sasuke wins, period. The Cursed Seal greatly increases his overall strength and grants him a surpassing durability.

 

[Apêx1]

And this is where you have no evidence, portrayal or feats, that lead to Sasuke's Shunshin being faster than KCM Naruto's Shunshin.

As I just said, Chakra potency is what determines shunshin alongside base foot speed. Given equal foot speed, superior chakra potency, the only thing that comes to mind is chakra control, which Sasuke is great at as well. Nothing to debate here, this is pure fact. These are literally the only potential factors for Shunshin, I need no evidence other than this.
-Sasuke has the reserves to use Shunshin freely.
-Sasuke has superior chakra potency.
-Sasuke has equivalent or near equivalent chakra control feats given his stabilisation of PS.

Anything left that I missed out? I'd think naught, unless you can point it out.

 

[LuckyMan]

-Sasuke has superior chakra potency.

Sasuke's chakra potency is not superior to Narutos. Naruto already has Ashura chakra. He also has his mother and fathers chakra and I don't need to explain that. Minato designed his seal so that Kyuubi chakra will naturally slowly mix with Narutos own chakra too and Kurama chakra is extremely potent. When we factor in all that, there's no doubt who's potency is superior.

 

[Pragmatic]

The difference between the two is that Hebi Sasuke can summon Manda, has curse mark abilities, and has Orochimaru who can emerge from his curse mark. Hebi Sasuke wins.

Curse mark is an imperfect sage mode with draw backs

War Arc Sasuke has Aoda who was described to be about the same size as Manda

This match up makes no sense considering the biggest if not only difference between the two has been restricted EMS

 

[Apêx1]

Sasuke's chakra potency is not superior to Narutos. Naruto already has Ashura chakra. He also has his mother and fathers chakra and I don't need to explain that. Minato designed his seal so that Kyuubi chakra will naturally slowly mix with Narutos own chakra too and Kurama chakra is extremely potent. When we factor in all that, there's no doubt who's potency is superior.

Uhh no. Indra's potency>Ashura's. Kyuubi admitted inferiority to Sasuke's chakra potency. No debate here, Sasuke's chakra quality is clearly superior. Naruto's quantity is clearly superior.

 

[KidGamer65]

As I just said, Chakra potency is what determines shunshin alongside base foot speed. Given equal foot speed, superior chakra potency, the only thing that comes to mind is chakra control, which Sasuke is great at as well. Nothing to debate here, this is pure fact. These are literally the only potential factors for Shunshin, I need no evidence other than this.
-Sasuke has the reserves to use Shunshin freely.
-Sasuke has superior chakra potency.
-Sasuke has equivalent or near equivalent chakra control feats given his stabilisation of PS.

Anything left that I missed out? I'd think naught, unless you can point it out.

It's crazy that somehow, you need "no more evidence" than what you've provided, even though Sasuke always had more potent chakra than Naruto, yet his Shunshin speed has never been faster. Ever.

-RSM Naruto reacted to his Teleportation, physically and mentally and evaded Kaguya's portal while he got pulled in. He tried to blitz Kaguya with Amenotejikara and failed while Naruto blitzed her, so he's way faster than him when it comes to foot speed, despite his chakra allegedly being more potent. Take away both Rikudo Boosts, and you still come to the conclusion that Cloaked Naruto>>Sasuke in Shunshin speed.

-MS Sasuke got blitzed by somebody slower than KCM Naruto, despite his chakra allegedly being more potent.

Not to mention Kurama's Chakra alone=/=Fusion of Naruto and Kurama's chakras, which is Bijuu Mode. Him having more potent chakra than Naruto or Kurama alone doesn't mean he has more potent chakra than both together.

Uh, controlling the chakra cloaks he gave to an army at once>>Stablizing PS when it comes to chakra control. There is literally no contest whatsoever.

So yes, there is nothing to debate here. Your evidence is invalid, nothing implies Sasuke is faster than Naruto, everything implies otherwise. This chakra potency argument isn't working since he's always had more potent chakra, yet he wasn't faster as Hebi, or w/ MS. Chakra control? Pretty sure MS Sasuke's chakra control>KCM Naruto's chakra control, add that to the potency point and MS Sasuke still should have been faster.......but he wasn't, obviously.

Either you are wrong about his chakra being more potent, and the chakra control thing, or your way for determining whose faster is flawed.

Uhh no. Indra's potency>Ashura's.

Good thing Indra's potency>Ashura's doesn't mean a thing when we are talking about Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto has Kurama's chakra and Ashura's chakra. Ashura only had his own chakra...that's even assuming Ashura and Indra's chakra potency is shared with his reincarnations.

 

[KCN]

Hebi Sasuke takes his head clean off. This massive speed difference isn't really a fruitful discussion, and him being faster than KCM Naruto is actually funny.