Dimension insight

[Mr Hiru]

I always did believe there was a literal god in NV, The pure land couldn't have just created itself. Lol


"

You must be registered for see links

texts often mention the concept of "dimension" when referring to

You must be registered for see links

or other imagined

You must be registered for see links

. This usage is derived from the idea that to travel to parallel/alternate universes/planes of existence one must travel in a direction/dimension besides the standard ones. In effect, the other universes/planes are just a small distance away from our own, but the distance is in a fourth (or higher) spatial (or non-spatial) dimension, not the standard ones." from the wiki but i understand you're more likely right. It'd be impractical to keep switch from one universe to another, Switching worlds is more practical. Would you propose that all of kaguya's worlds are within the same space?

Exactly. And the motive is that Obito spoke about a single time-space, not multiple time-spaces. Traveling from one reality to another (using the conception of dimension) would be virtually impossible for Obito, because Kamui is described as a time-space technique, not a multiverse technique.

---

I'm aware that you're trying to say that Kaguya's dimensions are in fact distinct time-spaces, part of the 5th dimension (possibilities, alternate realities, a.k.a. multiverse). But then again, this can't be explained to a kid of 7 years old, and contradicts the fact that Kamui could be used to transport Sasuke from one "dimension" to another one.

 

[NextGenNinja]

Mr Hiru may be correct. Black zetsu called the dimension a world multiple times or maybe BZ was just being specific. idk...

 

[Mr Hiru]

Mr Hiru may be correct. Black zetsu called the dimension a world multiple times or maybe BZ was just being specific. idk...

I'm only speaking basing my own logic on the description of the techniques, and real life concepts, therefore I might be wrong.

But if I were right about my deductions, even Kamui wouldn't be a gate for another dimension, but only a wormhole that connects Earth with another space inside the plane of existence of Earth (same time-space, just as the theoretical description of a wormhole, which curiously can "absorb" using exotic matter as source of energy for sending mass

You must be registered for see links

), ergo, another place in universe with similar properties to the earth (such as air).

Anyways, we only know Kamui as a Space-time vortex, and my initial postulation is that the concept of "dimension" is misleading the core function of Kamui, motive of why I am replacing the word "dimension" by "world/planet".

---

a) Case of "dimension"

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

<Madara's defeat/Kaguya's revival>

You must be registered for see links

"This ground is my nursery, I cannot let you damage it anymore"

You must be registered for see links

"I'll have you vanish right now"

NOTE - keyword: "you". This means that the world is not changing position, but the characters inside.

You must be registered for see links

"Indeed, it's not genjutsu"

"Did she..."

You must be registered for see links

"Summon another dimension?"

NOTE - Dimension is not a physical thing that you can summon, so the word "planet/world" should apply. Anyways, this is not a truth, but a subjective observation from a character which knowledge is not omnipresent, ergo, dimension may be acceptable to this point.

And now, the final page which reveals the true pattern behind Kaguya's technique

You must be registered for see links

Tobirama: "If I reach the place this huge chakra is coming from I might be able to understand something"

Hiruzen: "But his chakra suddenly dissappeared"

NOTE - Bingo. They know Madara dissappeared, and they know how is Kaguya's chakra. But why do they know that the chakra is still somewhere when Kakashi spoke about a "dimension"? Can Tobirama sense someone from another dimension? That's virtually impossible, only someone with the power of Six Paths has this feature (Naruto/Sasuke sensing Madara's limbo hengoku is the best example of this fact). Ergo, the only logical possibility is that they didn't go to another dimension, but to another planet near Earth, close enough so Tobirama could sense Kaguya's chakra.

So, only in two chapters (678 and 679) we can understand the true nature of this technique, and at same time we can clear the doubts about the concept of dimension being awfully introduced to the manga.

 

[Seventh Sama]

I'm only speaking basing my own logic on the description of the techniques, and real life concepts, therefore I might be wrong.

But if I were right about my deductions, even Kamui wouldn't be a gate for another dimension, but only a wormhole that connects Earth with another space inside the plane of existence of Earth (same time-space, just as the theoretical description of a wormhole, which curiously can "absorb" using exotic matter as source of energy for sending mass

You must be registered for see links

), ergo, another place in universe with similar properties to the earth (such as air).

Anyways, we only know Kamui as a Space-time vortex, and my initial postulation is that the concept of "dimension" is misleading the core function of Kamui, motive of why I am replacing the word "dimension" by "world/planet".

---

a) Case of "dimension"

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

<Madara's defeat/Kaguya's revival>

You must be registered for see links

"This ground is my nursery, I cannot let you damage it anymore"

You must be registered for see links

"I'll have you vanish right now"

NOTE - keyword: "you". This means that the world is not changing position, but the characters inside.

You must be registered for see links

"Indeed, it's not genjutsu"

"Did she..."

You must be registered for see links

"Summon another dimension?"

NOTE - Dimension is not a physical thing that you can summon, so the word "planet/world" should apply. Anyways, this is not a truth, but a subjective observation from a character which knowledge is not omnipresent, ergo, dimension may be acceptable to this point.

And now, the final page which reveals the true pattern behind Kaguya's technique

You must be registered for see links

Tobirama: "If I reach the place this huge chakra is coming from I might be able to understand something"

Hiruzen: "But his chakra suddenly dissappeared"

NOTE - Bingo. They know Madara dissappeared, and they know how is Kaguya's chakra. But why do they know that the chakra is still somewhere when Kakashi spoke about a "dimension"? Can Tobirama sense someone from another dimension? That's virtually impossible, only someone with the power of Six Paths has this feature (Naruto/Sasuke sensing Madara's limbo hengoku is the best example of this fact). Ergo, the only logical possibility is that they didn't go to another dimension, but to another planet near Earth, close enough so Tobirama could sense Kaguya's chakra.

So, only in two chapters (678 and 679) we can understand the true nature of this technique, and at same time we can clear the doubts about the concept of dimension being awfully introduced to the manga.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

^^Viz scan btw. "sensed" It's past tense but you are right about the sage part. Naruto & sasuke did sense each other for a second via sun & moon mark.

 

[davidou]

Exactly. And the motive is that Obito spoke about a single time-space, not multiple time-spaces. Traveling from one reality to another (using the conception of dimension) would be virtually impossible for Obito, because Kamui is described as a time-space technique, not a multiverse technique.

---

I'm aware that you're trying to say that Kaguya's dimensions are in fact distinct time-spaces, part of the 5th dimension (possibilities, alternate realities, a.k.a. multiverse). But then again, this can't be explained to a kid of 7 years old, and contradicts the fact that Kamui could be used to transport Sasuke from one "dimension" to another one.

You can explain everything to a 5 year old child , you just need time and to have understood very well the thing to explain , Einstein said that , I agree.
I think he said something like:"You haven't understood something if you can't explain that to a 5 year old child"



Imagine Kamui and Kaguya's technique aren't space time techniques at all , but "only" ways to travel into the 5th dimension.
When the user begins to travel from point A(x,y,z,t,a) to point B(x,y,z,t,b) of the 5th dimension , he disappears from the space/time that is located in point A and he goes into the space/time that is located in point B of the 5th dimension.

Let's call Obito's Kamui dimension point B , Kaguya's dim are points C, D, E, F, G , that's why kamui is able to travel to Kaguya's dim , it's because Kamui is a way to travel through the 5th dim like Kaguya's technique.

 

[davidou]

I always did believe there was a literal god in NV, The pure land couldn't have just created itself. Lol

I smell it too.Nice argument , but now , who created the guy who created narutoverse?Who created the world where the creator lives?..

Creation of all things , the name of the jutsu Hagoromo uses to split the beasts is saying all.
This jutsu is the jutsu that created all things in nature , narutoverse (if that wasn't the case , why this name?At least this jutsu has the ability to create a universe given its description) , Hagoromo did a tiny-mini COAT jutsu to create the 9 beasts.

Madara says "a god" , that implies that there are other "gods" in this "world of gods".

 

[Mr Hiru]

You can explain everything to a 5 year old child , you just need time and to have understood very well the thing to explain , Einstein said that , I agree.
I think he said something like:"You haven't understood something if you can't explain that to a 5 year old child"



Imagine Kamui and Kaguya's technique aren't space time techniques at all , but "only" ways to travel into the 5th dimension.
When the user begins to travel from point A(x,y,z,t,a) to point B(x,y,z,t,b) of the 5th dimension , he disappears from the space/time that is located in point A and he goes into the space/time that is located in point B of the 5th dimension.

Let's call Obito's Kamui dimension point B , Kaguya's dim are points C, D, E, F, G , that's why kamui is able to travel to Kaguya's dim , it's because Kamui is a way to travel through the 5th dim like Kaguya's technique.

I already stated that I understood that this might be the case if Kaguya's dimensions were really dimensions. But Kamui is a space-time technique, not a multiverse technique, therefore the variable "a" is out of place for Kamui.

 

[davidou]

I already stated that I understood that this might be the case if Kaguya's dimensions were really dimensions. But Kamui is a space-time technique, not a multiverse technique, therefore the variable "a" is out of place for Kamui.

Kaguya having dimensions is a different concept than Kaguya having created time spaces at some points of a 5th dimension.
So , what are you saying?
For me , time is a dimension , space is 3 dimensions...
What is your definition of dimension , your words are ambiguous "Kaguya's dimensions were really dimensions".

If Kamui was "only" a way to travel into the 5th dim , the guys who would see the technique would still describe it as a space/time technique.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Kaguya having dimensions is a different concept than Kaguya having created time spaces at some points of a 5th dimension.
So , what are you saying?
For me , time is a dimension , space is 3 dimensions...
What is your definition of dimension , your words are ambiguous "Kaguya's dimensions were really dimensions".

If Kamui was "only" a way to travel into the 5th dim , the guys who would see the technique would still describe it as a space/time technique.

The point is, Kamui is a way to travel only inside the first four dimensions... space (first three) and time (the fourth).

The inclusion of a fifth dimension would automatically turn Kamui (from a space-time technique) to a multiverse technique (alternate/parallel realities/universes technique). But we only know it as a space-time technique.

This means that your last paragraph is fundamentally a contradiction to the core description of Kamui.

Moreover... I'd even ask you "why" Kamui can "absorb", like wormholes (which are a gate inside a determined time-space).

Finally, to clearify your ambiguity (because I have been clear from the start) I stated this because my first postulation in this thread is that the concept of dimension was very bad introduced to Narutoverse.

 

[Seventh Sama]

I smell it too.Nice argument , but who created the guy who created narutoverse?Who created the world where the creator lives?..

Creation of all things , the name of the jutsu Hagoromo uses to split the beasts is saying all.
This jutsu is the jutsu that created all things in nature , narutoverse (if that wasn't the case , why this name?At least this jutsu has the ability to create a universe given its description) , Hagoromo did a tiny-mini COAT jutsu to create the 9 beasts.

Madara says "a god" , that implies that there are other "gods" in this "world of gods".

Well, The god or gods are eternal. So that being or beings have always been there. Doesn't creation of all things need a source or something so it can create things?

 

[davidou]

The point is, Kamui is a way to travel only inside the first four dimensions... space (first three) and time (the fourth).

The inclusion of a fifth dimension would automatically turn Kamui (from a space-time technique) to a multiverse technique (alternate/parallel realities/universes technique). But we only know it as a space-time technique , as you do.

This means that your last paragraph is fundamentally a contradiction to the core description of Kamui.

Moreover... I'd even ask you "why" Kamui can "absorb", like wormholes (which are a gate inside a determined time-space).

Finally, to clearify your ambiguity (because I have been clear from the start) I stated this because my first postulation in this thread is that the concept of dimension was very bad introduced to Narutoverse.

If Kamui was "only" a way to travel into the 5th dim , the guys who would see the technique would still describe it as a space/time technique.

If Kamui was "only" a way to travel (to make a body travel , to make an amount of space travel) into the 5th dim , it would also be a way to make objects travel through that dim , as we saw Obito do many times , I don't see where you have a problem with the absorbtion thing.


Finally , I agree with you for the bad definition of "dimension" in the manga , but it seems you are making the same mistake as Kishimoto or his traductors when you say: "Kaguya's dimensions were really dimensions".

 

[davidou]

Well, The god or gods are eternal. So that being or beings have always been there. Doesn't creation of all things need a source or something so it can create things?

That "god" divided himself into Yin and Yang , he was the source of the creation of Narutoverse.

What if this "god" is an amount of energy in the void?
This energy became instable and exploded , creating Narutoverse , that have similarities with the big-bang theory.

 

[Mr Hiru]

If Kamui was "only" a way to travel into the 5th dim , the guys who would see the technique would still describe it as a space/time technique.

If Kamui was "only" a way to travel (to make a body travel , to make an amount of space travel) into the 5th dim , it would also be a way to make objects travel through that dim , as we saw Obito do many times , I don't see where you have a problem with the absorbtion thing.


Finally , I agree with you for the bad definition of "dimension" in the manga , but it seems you are making the same mistake as Kishimoto or his traductors when you say: "Kaguya's dimensions were really dimensions".

Because I don't think these are dimensions, but "worlds".

 

[davidou]

Kaguya's dimensions were really dimensions.

Because I don't think these are dimensions, but "worlds".

You are admitting that you made the same mistake as Kishimoto or his traductors , that's all that I wanted to point.

Again , you are using an ambiguous word: "world" , it's a less ambiguous word than "dimension" when you don't know if the guy knows what it means , like you , but it still is.
I understand that you mean "time-space" , you are the one that is ambiguous.

 

[Mr Hiru]

You are admitting that you made the same mistake as Kishimoto or his traductors , that's all that I wanted to point.

Again , you are using an ambiguous word: "world" , it's a less ambiguous word than "dimension" when you don't know if the guy knows what it means , like you , but it still is.
I understand that you mean "time-space" , you are the one that is ambiguous.

I have not admitted anything in here, dear sir.

I'd respectfully ask you to stop putting words in my fingers.
I'd also ask to assume the concatenation of the word "if" before "Kaguya's dimensions were really dimensions", because I'm stating this as a theoretical case, and the elimination of this important word may mislead the true meaning of my original claim.

Now, onto debate.

---

My position in this place is clear: Kamui is a time-space technique. No more, no less.

Also, my words in this thread have been theoretical (in fact, if you read well my postulate 4 posts before this one, I'm stating two things: My postulate is a deduction, and that I might be wrong). Taking this in mind, I'd also can say that your position is a theory as well (in fact, Kishimoto's concept of dimension is also theoretical).

Two scenarios are born from this debate.

- Your postulated scenario: Kaguya really summon dimensions which she created beforehand, and she can travel between dimensions. This implies that Kamui is not a space-time technique, but also a multiverse technique.

Contradiction found: Kamui has never been stated as a multiverse technique, ergo, the postulation of Kamui being able to use a fifth dimension as a bridge between time-spaces is merely theoretical.

- My postulated scenario: The "dimensions" are not dimensions per se, but worlds separated by space, but living inside the same dimension, and Kaguya/Obito ability to transport people from world to world is merely analogue to how wormholes works (using exotic matter to transport mass through space, as a time-space shortcut propulsor), giving consistence to the fact that Kamui is only a time-space (and not a multiverse) technique.

Contradiction found: Kishimoto used the word dimension to describe Kaguya's ability, and Kamui.

---

The point is, as my postulation is not perfect, there is a simple way to solve it so your position is correct: To accept the fact that "Kamui is not a time-space technique, but a multiverse technique".

It's not that hard, that's what I have been deducing from the start of this thread. Kishimoto was wrong describing the concept of dimensions, or he was wrong describing the properties behind the techniques.

Even you're accepting that Kamui needs to use a fifth dimension to travel between dimensions, which I completely agree.

Edit: I'd also add the fact that Kishimoto did force Kakashi to tell that "Kaguya summoned a dimension". Dimension is a measure, it is not a physical object that people can "bring".

What I see Kaguya really could do (under the correct use of the concept of dimension) is to transport the people in that battlefield using a fifth dimension as bridge from one time-space to another time-space.

 

[davidou]

Even you're accepting that Kamui needs to use a fifth dimension to travel between dimensions, which I completely agree.

Edit: I'd also add the fact that Kishimoto did force Kakashi to tell that "Kaguya summoned a dimension". Dimension is a measure, it is not a physical object that people can "bring".

What I see Kaguya really could do (under the correct use of the concept of dimension) is to transport the people in that battlefield using a fifth dimension as bridge from one time-space to another time-space.

You should also say when you use "dimension" under the uncorrect use of the concept , as you do many times.
I understood , at the end of your post , that you were using the uncorrect use of the concept from the beginning of your post...

You are using the incorrect use of the concept and the correct use of the concept in the same sentence , only you can understand you...

I agree with your very clear and unambiguous last sentence , that is what I said from the beginning and not what you put in my mouth in your paragraph "your postulated scenario".
I think Kamui has the same ability.

 

[Mr Hiru]

You should also say when you use "dimension" under the uncorrect use of the concept , as you do many times.
I understood , at the end of your post , that you were using the uncorrect use of the concept from the beginning of your post...

You are using the incorrect use of the concept and the correct use of the concept in the same sentence , only you can understand you...

I agree with your very clear and unambiguous last sentence , that is what I said from the beginning and not what you put in my mouth in your paragraph "your postulated scenario".
I think Kamui has the same ability.

I'm sorry, that one was a mistake from my part. What I meant is that "use a fifth dimension to travel between time-spaces".

But yes, what I'm telling is that there is a clear contradiction in the use of the concept of dimension in these pages:

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

PS: Hell, now I got my fingers confused D: XD

 

[Seventh Sama]

I'm sorry, that one was a mistake from my part. What I meant is that "use a fifth dimension to travel between time-spaces".

But yes, what I'm telling is that there is a clear contradiction in the use of the concept of dimension in these pages:

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

PS: Hell, now I got my fingers confused D: XD

Kakashi was questioning what had happened. Kaguya teleports people to another world or dimension not "summon another dimension" upon where they're at.

That "god" divided himself into Yin and Yang , he was the source of the creation of Narutoverse.

What if this "god" is an amount of energy in the void?
This energy became instable and exploded , creating Narutoverse , that have similarities with the big-bang theory.

Well, If there are gods then kishi is more likely to incorporate Japanese mythology so i doubt he'll take the big bang route to explain the origin of his story.

 

[Florio]

Kishi doesn't even know the answer.
MANGA FAILS

 

[davidou]

Well, If there are gods then kishi is more likely to incorporate Japanese mythology so i doubt he'll take the big bang route to explain the origin of his story.

I just pointed that the story Madara is telling has similarities with the bigbang theory.

If you don't see that , you're blind.