No restrictions, fighting to kill. Since hashi knows how dangerous madara is he won't hesitate to use his most powerful techniques in order to bring him down. This fight is not starting in cqc.
The rods won't play a part because hashi isn't going to allow cqc.
He can enter it fast enough. [
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] Then clones ensure he isn't getting interrupted.
The intent is to kill, if you don't think that hashi will try to put madara down quickly after knowing full well what he can do then that's not my fault.
Again, why? How fast was this? Can you tell from the panel time? 1 second? 2 seconds? 3 seconds? You cannot tell from these panels. All we can say is 2 - 3 seconds, maybe? That is more than enough time to blitz him and stop his Senjutsu kneading.
So he makes clones and kneads chakra before Madara blitzes him?
Why won't he allow CQC? Is there some reason for this? That is not a good enough reason not to start in CQC. You assume so and so will happen, then I can as well.
Well that's too bad because that's just your opinion. Unless you have a reason as to why hashi would even consider engaging in cqc then he won't. Hashi won't be an idiot & fall for the same trick that got him paralyzed before, at least I have a legitimate reason.
You assume so and so will happen, then I can as well.
I'm not assuming anything, you think that hashi is stupid enough to fight madara in cqc after he's aware of what madara can do from that position? Lol Oh please. What hashi does during this fight is based on facts, you're blindly letting hashi follow a stupid strategy that he not only knows won't work but will end up being a detriment to him in the end.
CQC isn't happening, unless you think hashi is a complete idiot with absolutely no fighting experience under his belt.
That's what clones are for, it takes a second for them to sprout [
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-
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]. You think that madara is blitzing hashi when they have similar speed? You think hashi can't manage to produce at least one clone before madara closes the gap?
I see no intel added. He magically assumes that Madara has rods in his arsenal?
When no intel is added it's assumed that we're going by manga intel = what they both currently know about eachother. Unless intel is specified, why should I believe that hashi is unaware of a jutsu that trapped him in their previous battle?
That's what clones are for, it takes a second for them to sprout [
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-
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]. You think that madara is blitzing hashi when they have similar speed? You think hashi can't manage to produce at least one clone before madara closes the gap?
When no intel is added it's assumed that we're going by manga intel = what they both currently know about eachother. Unless intel is specified, why should I believe that hashi is unaware of a jutsu that trapped him in their previous battle?
How fast do you think Hashirama is, that he makes clones and kneads chakra before Madara reaches him? That's probably the fastest character in the manga then. Even Naruto had to knock Kaguya down and avail that moment to create countless Bushins to fool her:
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- So this guy is officially faster than Naruto, who doesn't need any distraction but creates clones and kneads Senjutsu chakra in a second.
Have you forgotten that Madara can make Kage Bushins as well?
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- He makes Moku-Bushins, Madara creates his own to battle them, whilst he blitzes Hashirama to stop him from kneading chakra.
When the first time they fought, Hashirama had zero intel on the rods. That's the one I'll take, unless OP doesn't specifically state otherwise.
How fast do you think Hashirama is, that he makes clones and kneads chakra before Madara reaches him? That's probably the fastest character in the manga then.
Oh my goodness, what..? Now hashi can't move while creating clones..? He can't mold chakra while moving..? I have no idea what you're trying to imply here.. Madara isn't getting close to hashi, not when the guy outran a bijuudama, bit his thumb, & summoned the rashomon gates before it could hit him. [
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As I said, they're the same speed, madara isn't blitzing squat during this fight. If he tries to get close then hashi moves away while creating clones, once clones are out hashi can mayfly to a further location to gather senjutsu or simply have one of his clones do it for him. Hashi doesn't need to be the fastest damn character in the manga in order to create a clone before madara can get close to him. U_U
Even Naruto had to knock Kaguya down and avail that moment to create countless Bushins to fool her:
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- So this guy is officially faster than Naruto, who doesn't need any distraction but creates clones and kneads Senjutsu chakra in a second.
Why on earth are you comparing kaguya, a character who can
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& fly, to a blind guy who uses footspeed & isn't even close to being above his enemy in terms of speed? Really? You did this in the tsunade vs sasori thread too, you like to use a character's speed feats as an example despite said example being completely different from the situation at hand. Does madara have a s/t jutsu? No. Therefore hashi doesn't have to worry about madara blitzing him.
Have you forgotten that Madara can make Kage Bushins as well?
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- He makes Moku-Bushins, Madara creates his own to battle them, whilst he blitzes Hashirama to stop him from kneading chakra.
Well maybe if you actually clicked on the scans I presented you'd see that I'm well aware of madara's ability to make clones.
In any case clones are useless, by the time madara makes his clones the mokujin/SS is up. & No for the final time madara isn't blitzing anything because he doesn't have some godly speed that hashi can't track.
Madara tries to blitz, hashi widens the gap & makes clones. Madara tries to make clones, hashi creates his mokujin/SS & knocks them back. Once the large constructs are up the match is over.
When the first time they fought, Hashirama had zero intel on the rods. That's the one I'll take, unless OP doesn't specifically state otherwise.
Well that's you, I for one am not restricting hashi's info for no reason. You may want to restrict it because it simply doesn't cater to your argument but if the OP doesn't specify, then that means this is the hashi with all of his current info. Makes zero sense to use a hashi with limited intel when this isn't even the same hashi that fought edo madara, & vice versa for madara.
The funny thing was 1000 palm was considered a weak move used by Yamato. And Madara was taking care of the main work. And you people except Sm Hashirama to beat blind Madara with 1000 plams?
If Hashirama decides to bring out Shinsuusenju, Madara could bring out the statue and PS in conjunction together. Now Madara has access to Sennin Mode, he already seen the Jutsu with his Sharingan, nothing can debunk he can use it. Of course, Blind Madara possess Hashirama's Chakra & Senjutsu Chakra, plus his own Chakra; it's pretty clear that Chakra quality and quantity are on his side. If they decide to fight in CQC, Madara stabs him with black rods as canonically did.
Oh my goodness, what..? Now hashi can't move while creating clones..? He can't mold chakra while moving..? I have no idea what you're trying to imply here.. Madara isn't getting close to hashi, not when the guy outran a bijuudama, bit his thumb, & summoned the rashomon gates before it could hit him. [
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As I said, they're the same speed, madara isn't blitzing squat during this fight. If he tries to get close then hashi moves away while creating clones, once clones are out hashi can mayfly to a further location to gather senjutsu or simply have one of his clones do it for him. Hashi doesn't need to be the fastest damn character in the manga in order to create a clone before madara can get close to him. U_U
Why on earth are you comparing kaguya, a character who can
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& fly, to a blind guy who uses footspeed & isn't even close to being above his enemy in terms of speed? Really? You did this in the tsunade vs sasori thread too, you like to use a character's speed feats as an example despite said example being completely different from the situation at hand. Does madara have a s/t jutsu? No. Therefore hashi doesn't have to worry about madara blitzing him.
Well maybe if you actually clicked on the scans I presented you'd see that I'm well aware of madara's ability to make clones.
In any case clones are useless, by the time madara makes his clones the mokujin/SS is up. & No for the final time madara isn't blitzing anything because he doesn't have some godly speed that hashi can't track.
Madara tries to blitz, hashi widens the gap & makes clones. Madara tries to make clones, hashi creates his mokujin/SS & knocks them back. Once the large constructs are up the match is over.
Well that's you, I for one am not restricting hashi's info for no reason. You may want to restrict it because it simply doesn't cater to your argument but if the OP doesn't specify, then that means this is the hashi with all of his current info. Makes zero sense to use a hashi with limited intel when this isn't even the same hashi that fought edo madara, & vice versa for madara.
You should read carefully before you decide to counter. You made that statement that he moves and kneads Senjutsu chakra in a second. He cannot move while he kneads Senjutsu chakra and he cannot enter SM without doing so. If he moves or makes Bushins, he isn't kneading Senjutsu. How hard is it to grasp that?
You think it is so easy that he creates bushins and kneads Senjutsu as well? That sounds absurd. When Madara can make Moku-bushins or Kage Bushins as well, while moving, when Hashirama won't have that luxury if he decides to enter SM?
Comparing Kaguya? I gave an analogy about Naruto. No one is comparing Kaguya to anyone. Try to understand the analogy. Naruto is the fastest character bar Sasuke, and even he couldn't make Bushins and proceed to fool her without a distraction. You are telling me that a much much much slower character makes Bushins, kneads Senjutsu, and fools Madara and does all this while ... Madara stands around doing nothing? Sounds like wishful thinking.
What? I don't think so. How long does it take to make Kage busins? A second? I'll ask you again, where are you getting this from that Hashirama moves to make Moku-Bushins and kneads Senjutsu chakra as well? It isn't happening. Not in a million years. Only Kabuto is capable of moving and kneading Senjutsu, which is the ability from the Ryu cave. No one else. If he widens the gap, he isn't entering SM. He needs to stand still to enter SM, even if it only takes 2 to 3 seconds.
Cater to my argument? When you are the one absurdly suggesting that Hashirama can enter SM like nothing while making Moku-bushins? It goes both ways.
You should read carefully before you decide to counter. You made that statement that he moves and kneads Senjutsu chakra in a second. He cannot move while he kneads Senjutsu chakra and he cannot enter SM without doing so. If he moves or makes Bushins, he isn't kneading Senjutsu. How hard is it to grasp that?
No I shouldn't actually, It seems you just didn't understand what I was saying or rather you aren't piecing it together.
Yes, hashi can mold senjutsu chakra extremely quickly, & yes he needs to be still in order to do that. But what you failed to understand is that hashi can use clones, or any other base jutsu for that matter while on the move, meaning he will use those jutsus in order to create enough distance where he can gather enough senjutsu without being disturbed. Since that time frame is small then he wouldn't even need much time to do it. Hell, even a stray clone can gather senjutsu for him, it's not hard to understand that the use of clones & such is only to help gather the necessary senjutsu/create his large scale mokuton.
Since you for some reason think that madara will blitz hashi before he can enter SM, I'm explaining how that's not a possibility.
You think it is so easy that he creates bushins and kneads Senjutsu as well? That sounds absurd. When Madara can make Moku-bushins or Kage Bushins as well, while moving, when Hashirama won't have that luxury if he decides to enter SM?
Yes actually, it's extremely easy considering madara isn't any faster than hashi, so zero blitzing is happening as long as he can move. Then hashi has all the time in the world to mold as much senjutsu chakra as he wants while atop one of his massive mokuton constructs which can be created just as easily as his clones can.
& Lol, So it's absurd to say that hashi can create a jutsu before madara blitzes him? Oh please, show me madara blitzing hashi before he can use any jutsu, then maybe you'd have a case. But this "madara blitzes hashi" nonsense is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing, & if anything in this thread is to be called absurd then it would have to be that. U_U
Comparing Kaguya? I gave an analogy about Naruto. No one is comparing Kaguya to anyone. Try to understand the analogy.
No, It's not an analogy. You're comparing two completely different scenarios, a scenario where naruto could get blitzed to a scenario where hashi can't, how on earth do you not get this?
Naruto is the fastest character bar Sasuke, and even he couldn't make Bushins and proceed to fool her without a distraction.
That doesn't matter in the slightest, s/t jutsus >> Naruto's speed, of course to make sure he doesn't get attacked like he did previously he's going to distract kaguya before he uses the jutsu. He even established himself that diversions & taijutsu work best on her.[
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] This scenario is completely irrelevant, but in any case it's completely invalid as well.
Who did you say was faster than naruto? Sasuke? Well then you mind explaining this to me?
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I didn't see naruto try to create a distraction above, therefore your "analogy" doesn't hold.
You are telling me that a much much much slower character makes Bushins, kneads Senjutsu, and fools Madara and does all this while ... Madara stands around doing nothing? Sounds like wishful thinking.
Lol, Well now I see the problem, you think madara is faster than hashi & fast enough to blitz him at that. Smh, well the above scan clearly proves that wrong, madara isn't blitzing hashi before he can use a jutsu unless he has some sort of s/t jutsu or 8G level speed.
Sasuke stood around doing nothing, he even read naruto's handsign & recognized the jutsu before he did it. Your scenario has never happened in the manga between two characters who are portrayed to be equal in almost every way, until you show me a scan of madara blitzing hashi, I call fanfiction.
What? I don't think so. How long does it take to make Kage busins? A second? I'll ask you again, where are you getting this from that Hashirama moves to make Moku-Bushins and kneads Senjutsu chakra as well? It isn't happening. Not in a million years.
I don't know who's argument you're reading, but it sure isn't mine. I never said that hashi is going to gather senjutsu & create clones simultaneously, so get that out of your head. I said that hashi will create clones while moving & can use one to gather senjutsu separately, or he can mayfly & gather it himself while his clones draw madara's fire with jutsus like jukkai kotan & mokuryuu.
Hashi can move & use jutsus, that much is obvious. He only has to remain still to gather the senjutsu & only for a moment at that. He'll use everything I mentioned above to push back madara & buy himself or one of his clones enough time to gather the necessary senjutsu, it isn't a hard strategy to grasp.
Only Kabuto is capable of moving and kneading Senjutsu, which is the ability from the Ryu cave. No one else.
Well you need to go back & reread what I wrote because I never said that hashi is going to be molding senjutsu chakra while on the move, he has plenty of clones to do it for him & plenty of constructs to push madara back with.
If he widens the gap, he isn't entering SM. He needs to stand still to enter SM, even if it only takes 2 to 3 seconds.
So hashi can't create a mokuton construct like the mokujin & sit atop it's head for a few seconds? He can't create a massive forest & have one of his clones mayfly into it at the same time, thus moving locations far enough away in order to gather senjutsu? Your mind is closed to the possibilities at hashi's disposal, he will gather senjutsu without a problem unless you can give me a scan of madara actually preventing this from being the case.
No, no it doesn't, not at all. You have yet to show me madara doing anything significant or worthy of being called a "blitz" against hashi. As far as the manga shows us & tells us they're the same speed, meaning no blitzing, & gathering SM will be easy.
LOLLL @ Madara fapboys saying Madara has the buddha. ROFLL.
He doesn't even have Hashirama's Kurama level reserves.. how the f*ck does he have the buddha?
I guess Yamato also has Flower tree world.
PS: Hashirama is more skilled than Madara, even if we don't count Mokuton.
Oh then you have the technique that Hashirama solely invented in case someone did take his SM. Which makes it Hashirama soloing neg-diff.. But of course we can't ruin Madara fapism.. so we'll just ignore something hashirama created for his own senjutsu..
No I shouldn't actually, It seems you just didn't understand what I was saying or rather you aren't piecing it together.
Yes, hashi can mold senjutsu chakra extremely quickly, & yes he needs to be still in order to do that. But what you failed to understand is that hashi can use clones, or any other base jutsu for that matter while on the move, meaning he will use those jutsus in order to create enough distance where he can gather enough senjutsu without being disturbed. Since that time frame is small then he wouldn't even need much time to do it. Hell, even a stray clone can gather senjutsu for him, it's not hard to understand that the use of clones & such is only to help gather the necessary senjutsu/create his large scale mokuton.
Since you for some reason think that madara will blitz hashi before he can enter SM, I'm explaining how that's not a possibility.
Yes actually, it's extremely easy considering madara isn't any faster than hashi, so zero blitzing is happening as long as he can move. Then hashi has all the time in the world to mold as much senjutsu chakra as he wants while atop one of his massive mokuton constructs which can be created just as easily as his clones can.
& Lol, So it's absurd to say that hashi can create a jutsu before madara blitzes him? Oh please, show me madara blitzing hashi before he can use any jutsu, then maybe you'd have a case. But this "madara blitzes hashi" nonsense is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing, & if anything in this thread is to be called absurd then it would have to be that. U_U
No, It's not an analogy. You're comparing two completely different scenarios, a scenario where naruto could get blitzed to a scenario where hashi can't, how on earth do you not get this?
That doesn't matter in the slightest, s/t jutsus >> Naruto's speed, of course to make sure he doesn't get attacked like he did previously he's going to distract kaguya before he uses the jutsu. He even established himself that diversions & taijutsu work best on her.[
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] This scenario is completely irrelevant, but in any case it's completely invalid as well.
Who did you say was faster than naruto? Sasuke? Well then you mind explaining this to me?
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I didn't see naruto try to create a distraction above, therefore your "analogy" doesn't hold.
Lol, Well now I see the problem, you think madara is faster than hashi & fast enough to blitz him at that. Smh, well the above scan clearly proves that wrong, madara isn't blitzing hashi before he can use a jutsu unless he has some sort of s/t jutsu or 8G level speed.
Sasuke stood around doing nothing, he even read naruto's handsign & recognized the jutsu before he did it. Your scenario has never happened in the manga between two characters who are portrayed to be equal in almost every way, until you show me a scan of madara blitzing hashi, I call fanfiction.
I don't know who's argument you're reading, but it sure isn't mine. I never said that hashi is going to gather senjutsu & create clones simultaneously, so get that out of your head. I said that hashi will create clones while moving & can use one to gather senjutsu separately, or he can mayfly & gather it himself while his clones draw madara's fire with jutsus like jukkai kotan & mokuryuu.
Hashi can move & use jutsus, that much is obvious. He only has to remain still to gather the senjutsu & only for a moment at that. He'll use everything I mentioned above to push back madara & buy himself or one of his clones enough time to gather the necessary senjutsu, it isn't a hard strategy to grasp.
Well you need to go back & reread what I wrote because I never said that hashi is going to be molding senjutsu chakra while on the move, he has plenty of clones to do it for him & plenty of constructs to push madara back with.
So hashi can't create a mokuton construct like the mokujin & sit atop it's head for a few seconds? He can't create a massive forest & have one of his clones mayfly into it at the same time, thus moving locations far enough away in order to gather senjutsu? Your mind is closed to the possibilities at hashi's disposal, he will gather senjutsu without a problem unless you can give me a scan of madara actually preventing this from being the case.
No, no it doesn't, not at all. You have yet to show me madara doing anything significant or worthy of being called a "blitz" against hashi. As far as the manga shows us & tells us they're the same speed, meaning no blitzing, & gathering SM will be easy.
God, are we still doing this? This is becoming redundant:
1 - And you seem to fail to realize when I said that Madara can move and make clones as well. What's he countering then? His clones take on Hashirama's ... and ... we are back to square one with the whole 'standing still' and kneading Senjutsu chakra. It is a very very high possibility, unless you believe Hashirama to be faster.
2 - Not easy in regards to being in a situation where he has has no back up and is up against an opponent who is fast and can stop him from kneading Senjutsu chakra. Won't repeat myself in regards to Bushin points.
3 - Not exactly. The point you were trying to make is Hashirama's ultra fast movements where he doesn't have to worry about Madara as if he's a fly buzzing around who can't hurt him or close up the gap between them quickly. Which is why I brought Naruto in and how he managed it all quickly. Despite being one of the two fastest characters in the manga who holds absolute mastery over KGs or Bushins in general bar none. In a hairy situation when the other opponent is just as fast ... it isn't that easy.
4 - No idea what you are talking about. I never said Madara is much faster than Hashirama, I made an analogy between Naruto and Hashirama. God, man ... keep track of analogies. Also, Madara does have faster reflexes given that he stabbed him with rods 6 or 7 times. Or are we disregarding this too?
You are asking for scans? All right, show me a scan where Hashirama was entering in SM and Madara tried to stop him. It goes both ways.
5 - So he does all that in a second while Madara does nothing? He makes clones, uses mayfly, hides somewhere snug and kneads Senjutsu, all the while Madara is completely oblivious? I cannot see the image in spoiler. Don't turn this into Sasuke versus Naruto. I can prove that Sasuke is faster. But this isn't the thread or place for it. Stick to the analogy and your example didn't disprove the fact that he couldn't do all that without distracting her, as she's ... wait for it ... fast.
6 - Do you honestly think Madara will do nothing when he does all that? What is Madara doing while he does all that? Mining his nose? Waiting for him to finish so that he can go down the scenario you have thought out?
7 - He stabbed him several times. So his reflexes and strike speed is definitely better. He would blitz if he stands still to knead Senjutsu. I don't know why this point, which I have repeatedly highlighted, didn't seem to cross your mind.
