How I would have constructed the final antagonist (The Kaguya/Madara debacle)

[MAN OF SIN]

No they wouldn't lols. It would completely contradict the notion of eternal peace. What is bullshit is your excuse that "Kishimoto had to change it to make it look bad" considering you have nothing to support it and when it was his plan all along considering everyone was against it and he based the concept off the matrix.

No, it wouldn't contradict that notion of peace as nobody is really getting hurt. The Matrix didn't feature people being transformed into mindless soliders. And please, it wasn't planned all along. Read the Kaguya section here that explains why it's a blatant retcon:

So instead of having Naruto face an actual moral conflict and ideological struggle, Kishi instead cops out by having Infinite Tsukuyomi actually turn people into Zetsu over time to put Naruto completely in the right. Revealing that Zetsus were not artificial humans/clones created from Hashirama's DNA but victims of a previous Infinite Tsukuyomi event. But there is tons of evidence saying that this is a blatant retcon. Like the fact that all the Zetsus were males, Shizune explaining they had DNA identical to Hashirama, and a group of Zetsu referring to White Zetsu as their "original" when they are among themselves(only Sasuke was around and they planned on killing him). This seriously came out of nowhere and creates plot holes.

Kishi tries to make it look like he has been foreshadowing this twist for sometime by having people hang from the tree like the "failed zetsu experiments" Madara was talking about. However, that was just a retcon to make it look that way. As flashback in chapter 671 shows the victims of the genjutsu were laying on the ground connected to the roots, rather than hanging from them. Nice try Kishi.

Now there is Black Zetsu being Kaguya's will instead of Madara's which is another obvious retcon. As we saw Madara create Black Zetsu on-panel with yin-yang release. There is nothing explaining this. This reveal just creates even more plot holes.

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And then explained that he wanted to remake the world where there would be no conflict or shinobi. That was Obito's goal all along. He wanted peace because seeing his best friend stabbing his childhood crush traumatized him. And what exactly does Obito have to do with this lols? He didn't even know the properties of IT. He was just given the idea by Madara, who also didn't know fully about its properties. Why are we even having this discussion about IT when the goddamned topic is about Madara being the final antagonist and STILL using IT anyway?

Even then Obito to many readers sounded like he wanted to mind control the world into having no conflict. No mentioning of the ever lasting life aspect and the blissful dream part wasn't mentioned until long after the war started. Many readers were originally against IT because they questioned how people would survive without nutrition. And yes, Madara knew the properties and he told Obito about them.

I'm saying that Madara and Kaguya harmonizing would go against Kaguya's sole purpose in the story.

You still don't get the meaning behind the white zetsus do you? Kishimoto did not create that concept to make it "convenient," he made it to parallel what the whole concept would do to people figuratively, as well as literally. They would all become like souless dolls. All the same, looking the same, never moving, all dreaming, all happy, carefree, etc. It's no different from being a drug addict or suffering from gold fever, just as it's no different from the first version of the matrix and a certain Ray Bradbury short story lols. It's a calamity to the human condition.

And I don't need your retarded links, Sin. I didn't ask for them and I've read the manga far more fluently than yourself it would seem.

They were going to be loss their personalities and be used for some unknown battle according to Black Zetsu in chapter 679. That's no parallel to what Obito and Madara had in mind, but the exact opposite.

And my alternate scenario doesn't make it good.

Should have read it more closely. Glad you agree it was good.

Which, like everything else you've stated so far is completely misconceived, muddled, pointless and off-topic. Are you done now?

Why were you trying to prove me wrong then?

Think of them as becoming one. He gains gods power and it corrupts his mind fully, which was already on the edge due to the stone and the power he had already stolen. She tells him the full properties of IT and that he now has the power not just to save the world, but to recreate it as he wishes. And honestly, this already felt foreshadowed to me since he called himself immortal after absorbing the Shinju and even followed Kaguya's ideal as he cast the IT, saying "we will finally become one."

That's nothing like Naruto and Kurama's relationship.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

No, it wouldn't contradict that notion of peace as nobody is really getting hurt.

People not being able to move or use their motor reflexes would hurt them. They are living beings, not dolls. Their life spans would be vastly shortened and their minds would not be able to handle the illusions because they are not wired that way.

The Matrix didn't feature people being transformed into mindless soliders.

The first Matrix, which encompassed the same concept as IT was stated by Smith and the architect to be a disaster. None would accept the programming, there were suicides, mass insanity and murder, whole societies were lost so they had to completely remake in the image of the twentieth century where everything was normal and conflict and individualism still existed.

And please, it wasn't planned all along. Read the Kaguya section here that explains why it's a blatant retcon:

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My, you must be quite high on yourself to link your own theory and then have the audacity to speak of it dogmatically. I have no interest in your theories Sin. You've consistently been off-topic, misinterpreted the op, have human conditions completely reversed in your head as well as misconceived and are attempting to put yourself on a pedistal, so why would I care about any other interpretations you have? Get over yourself and either get with the topic or I'm headed for the mods.

Even then Obito to many readers sounded like he wanted to mind control the world into having no conflict. No mentioning of the ever lasting life aspect and the blissful dream part wasn't mentioned until long after the war started

...So?

Many readers were originally against IT because they questioned how people would survive without nutrition. And yes, Madara knew the properties and he told Obito about them.

Madara did not know of the white zetsus, thus he only knew half the concept. He also knew nothing of Kaguya's presence there until she spoke to him and he absorbed her.

I'm saying that Madara and Kaguya harmonizing would go against Kaguya's sole purpose in the story.

Actually, I don't think you know what you're saying lols. I think you've realized you misconceived things and instead of admitting it, you'd rather argue none stop about nothing to make yourself look "witty" when it's actually having the opposite effect.

Kaguya purpose and the white zetsus weren't even explained until she emerged from Madara. Her purpose was to gather all chakra to become one with her again. Madara agreed to this as he directly stated before and after he absorbed her. It doesn't go against anything, it's just a differing scenario in the same plot device of mind controlling everyone, taking all their chakra and killing them.

That's no parallel to what Obito and Madara had in mind, but the exact opposite.

Validate it. From my point of view it does and your point of view is no greater than mine.

It's called ignorance. Wasn't it Madara himself who stated you shouldn't meddle with jutsus you don't fully understand? Lols.

Glad you agree it was good. Should have read it more closely.

..Do you understand the meaning of "doesn't, or are you just a complete idiot or perhaps a troll? Possibly both?

Why were you trying to prove me wrong then?

Because you were and to prevent you from misinforming other people about my thread. But now, yes, I wish I had judy ignored you lols.

That's nothing like Naruto and Kurama's relationship.

If they have the same ideals and Kaguya becomes one with her "son" rather than being alone, it does. All the same, I didn't state it had to be exactly like Naruto and Kurama, just that they could have harmonized to make Madara more relative to Naruto in opposing ideals, character and even in battle.

 

[Transcendence]

Not bad, but I would have just rather had Kaguya actually had a character. Just completely sinister, akin to a Godly Orochimaru.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Not bad, but I would have just rather had Kaguya actually had a character. Just completely sinister, akin to a Godly Orochimaru.

That was what I was aiming at lols.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

People not being able to move or use their motor reflexes would hurt them. They are living beings, not dolls. Their life spans would be vastly shortened

I already proven to you that they would have lived forever and you say this?

XD

and their minds would not be able to handle the illusions because they are not wired that way.

I would love would to see the manga evidence of this.

The first Matrix, which encompassed the same concept as IT was stated by Smith and the architect to be a disaster. None would accept the programming, there were suicides, mass insanity and murder, whole societies were lost so they had to completely remake in the image of the twentieth century where everything was normal and conflict and individualism still existed.

No, not exactly like the Matrix, as everyone is not in the same illusion. And again, in the Matrix they weren't turn into soilders by the Machines.

My, you must be quite high on yourself to link your own theory and then have the audacity to speak of it dogmatically. I have no interest in your theories Sin. You've consistently been off-topic, misinterpreted the op, have human conditions completely reversed in your head as well as misconceived and are attempting to put yourself on a pedistal, so why would I care about any other interpretations you have? Get over yourself and either get with the topic or I'm headed for the mods.

It's not a theory or interpretation but facts saying that it was a blatant retcon. How can you even explain the Zetsu saying "you killed our original" part?

...So?

I'm explaining to you why people in the Narutoverse were against it. You said it was because of something else.

Madara did not know of the white zetsus, thus he only knew half the concept. He also knew nothing of Kaguya's presence there until she spoke to him and he absorbed her.

I'm talking about what he believed was the full properties.

Actually, I don't think you know what you're saying lols. I think you've realized you misconceived things and instead of admitting it, you'd rather argue none stop about nothing to make yourself look "witty" when it's actually having the opposite effect.

Uh this what I said in my previous post.

Glad you agree it was good. Should have read it more closely.

So I did admitted that I misconceived what you said in the OP. Yet you're saying this...

Kaguya purpose and the white zetsus weren't even explained until she emerged from Madara. Her purpose was to gather all chakra to become one with her again. Madara agreed to this as he directly stated before and after he absorbed her. It doesn't go against anything, it's just a differing scenario in the same plot device of mind controlling everyone, taking all their chakra and killing them.

Gaining all the chakra could have been done by Madara and it wasn't his plan to kill everybody.=|

Validate it. From my point of view it does and your point of view is no greater than mine.

It's called ignorance. Wasn't it Madara himself who stated you shouldn't meddle with jutsus you don't fully understand? Lols.

Madara wanted peace while Kaguya wanted war. How are they not exact opposites?

..Do you understand the meaning of "doesn't, or are you just a complete idiot or perhaps a troll? Possibly both?

I love how you're calling me an idiot when you said that the victims of IT would have a shorten life span. When in canon the ideal plan was make them live forever.

XD

Btw, you misunderstood what I said.

Because you were and to prevent you from misinforming other people about my thread. But now, yes, I wish I had judy ignored you lols.

lol "misinforming other people". You should have just said that IT wasn't good in your scenario and that would have been it. Instead you tried to argue that it was always bad.

If they have the same ideals and Kaguya becomes one with her "son" rather than being alone, it does. All the same, I didn't state it had to be exactly like Naruto and Kurama, just that they could have harmonized to make Madara more relative to Naruto in opposing ideals, character and even in battle.

That is not really harmonizing though. That means to come to an agreement. This is just Madara losing his indivivality.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

Throwing twelve year old emotes doesn't validate your statements and instead only further supports mine, but to each their own lols.

I already proven to you that they would have lived forever and you say this?

XD

You haven't proven anything. They weren't going to live forever, they were going to have their lives sucked out of them and be left as drones. Just because Obito and Madara did not know of this, it doesn't mean it was ret-conned.

I would love would to see the manga evidence of this.

An entire society that has revolved around shinobi for a thousand years suddenly becoming peaceful for good and it breaking down their minds is enough evidence for me. You may have your own interpretations as well, but the characters did abhor the idea of being controlled and losing their free will. Genjutsu can control the conscious. That doesn't mean it can control the subconscious.

No, not exactly like the Matrix, as everyone is not in the same illusion. And again, in the Matrix they weren't turn into soilders by the Machines.

No, they were just used as batteries for the machines instead. Biiiig difference lols.

It's not a theory or interpretation but facts saying that it was a blatant retcon.

No, it is a theory because you are not the mangaka. You are a reader who interprets his writing in your own way, so jump off your invisible high horse before I shoot you off.

Fine, then go marvel at your whatever you wish to call it and leave my thread be. I'm not interested in yours and it has nothing to do with mine. You already majorly misinterpreted my thread from the start so why should I trust you didn't misconceive things in your own lols?d

How can you even explain the Zetsu saying "you killed our original" part?

Don't know. Don't care. I've told you three times now I have no interest in your theories. This is my thread, not yours and I'm not going to make it yours lols.

I'm explaining to you why people in the Narutoverse were against it.

No, you're explaining why a small amount of fans that only you saw had their subjective criticisms for it, when it was barely even elaborated on yet and left for suspense to interpret. A notion again I have no interest in because once again it is off-topic.

You said it was because of something else.

Them it appears you misinterpreted me again. Shocker.

I'm talking about what he believed was the full properties.

...I don't care?

Uh this what I said in my previous post.

No, you said I agreed it was good, which I didn't.

So I did admitted that I misconceived what you said in the OP. Yet you're saying this...

My apologies if it was a typo, but you did state I agreed with you that IT was good, and I did not.

Gaining all the chakra could have been done by Madara and it wasn't his plan to kill everybody.=|

If you had read and comprehended my op, it states the power and knowledge he would have gained from Kaguya would have changed his mind, but it would seem you didn't, again.

Madara wanted peace while Kaguya wanted war. How are they not exact opposites?

Well, my version of Madara changes, just as he constantly changed throughout his life through all sorts of influences. Deal with it.

I love how you're calling me an idiot when you said that the victims of IT would have a shorten life span. When in canon the ideal plan was make them live forever.

Until the truth was revealed, which my scenario still followed. Your personal disliking of the chakra sucking/black zetsu plot has nothing to do with my thread, as I've stated half a dozen times now and I have no interest in it. Naruto may be a supernatural manga, but the characters still bleed, die and follow several real world physics and themes.

lol "misinforming other people". You should have just said that IT wasn't good in your scenario and that would have been it.

You shouldn't have randomly said it was good when I never stated that and then immediately gotten into a pointless "debate" with me after I said that was not the case, and that would have been the end of it. But hey, you can't turn back time and I doubt you regret what you did anyway lols. You're likely going to continue to spread your bullshit theory in my thread rather than sticking to the topic and I'm going to wind up derepping ayou and headin for the mods like I usually do when this happens because that's how conceited you are. Just watch, it will happen.

Instead you tried to argue that it was always bad.

Because I never stated it was good and in my scenario it is bad like I told you, but instead you have to make a war about it for whatever retarded, trolly reason lols..

That is not really harmonizing though. That means to come to an agreement. This is just Madara losing his indivivality.

Then by that logic, I suppose Sasuke lost his individuality every time he changed his goal lols. I never stated Kaguya would take over his mind, I stated she would give him information and the power he gained would corrupt him, which it long already had. Madara and most of the Uchiha lost most of their individuality enough as it was. They were manipulated by their emotions and the power in their eyes and very few could withstand that. And if you want to get realistic as well as literal, Madara's notion of peace contradicted his individualism a hella lot more than my scenario does. Madara thrived on war and battle. He loved to "dance" as he called it and obsessed over fighting Hashirama and the senju. If you truly believe even he would have been able to withstand a world where there is no conflict or anyone to challenge him, you've got another thing coming.

 

[Scryed]

I personally wouldve liked Madara vs Naruto and Sasuke to have had one final go. After Madara's defeat, BZ then stabs Madara and explains everything he explained to Madara.

Kaguya comes back and overpowers Naruto and Sasuke. Hamura gives half of his power to Narutoand the other half to Sasuke. So Nardo and Sauce reach Hagoromo and Hamura's level and with the help of company, they manage to sealKaguya away.

More development from Kaguya's character, goals, personality, and backstory.




I can't help but think that Kishi was told to hurry up and end the manga so he had no choice but to try to fit everything in but was unabke to do it properly.

 

[Sasuke Sux]

I never understood why Kishi decided to dispose of Madara so pitifully. He had the worst send off, considering he was the most hyped up villain in the series.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Throwing twelve year old emotes doesn't validate your statements and instead only further supports mine, but to each their own lols.

You contradicting yourself through out all of this is pretty funny. I'll let my rep explain and get on-topic.

Then by that logic, I suppose Sasuke lost his individuality every time he changed his goal lols. I never stated Kaguya would take over his mind, I stated she would give him information and the power he gained would corrupt him, which it long already had. Madara and most of the Uchiha lost most of their individuality enough as it was. They were manipulated by their emotions and the power in their eyes and very few could withstand that. And if you want to get realistic as well as literal, Madara's notion of peace contradicted his individualism a hella lot more than my scenario does. Madara thrived on war and battle. He loved to "dance" as he called it and obsessed over fighting Hashirama and the senju. If you truly believe even he would have been able to withstand a world where there is no conflict or anyone to challenge him, you've got another thing coming.

Wouldn't he be able to get all the conflict he wants in a dream?

 

[SkyGodHorus]

You contradicting yourself through out all of this is pretty funny. I'll let my rep explain and get on-topic.

You're rather easy to control, Sin. I tell you you'll wind up ticking me off in the coming posts with your continued off-topic, snarky remarks and low and behold, you do lols. Thank you for admitting you misconceived things and were off topic all the same.

Wouldn't he be able to get all the conflict he wants in a dream?

IT doesn't have conflict and Madara was the one who cast it, not the one put in it lols.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Troll harder.

It's the truth, my ninja.

IT doesn't have conflict.

Rock Lee kicked Neji and Naruto's ass'. In IT you get whatever you want. If Madara wants a fight he'll get it.

 

[SkyGodHorus]

It's the truth, my ninja.

As I said, troll harder.

Rock Lee kicked Neji and Naruto's ass'.

Sparring is not conflict. It's an exercise and a sport. The xiaolin buddhist monks' lifestyle revolves around it. Yes, he beat Neji. Then what? His greatest dream is fullfilled and there's nothing left for him to dream about or to further be inspired by to find a new dream. Essentially, that's like your life coming to an end: death. Thus his life becomes void and drone-like.

In IT you get whatever you want. If Madara wants a fight he'll get it.

In IT, you get whatever the caster wants. And Madara was not in IT.