[Spoilers] Hamura descendant

[Shinato]

Senju, Uzumaki and Uchiha all originate from Kaguya. In other words, they are all blood related anyways. So whats the point of debating this? Anyways, the Uzumaki were stated to be distant blood relatives of the Senju. This can mean two things, that they are either a branch of Senju or their cousins. I believe that they are cousins, for the soul reason that Kishi likes to make equality in his story. I do believe that Hamura had two children as well, one became the Hyuuga and one became the Uzumaki. They are still connected to the Senju by blood.

 

[InvaderRaz]

Alright I am back, I think you may be confusing me on something, would you agree with me that ashura is the ancestor of the the senju clan ? that is a fact its been said over and over again, I am not focusing atm on hagoromo, I am only focusing on the sole creator of the senju clan. I mean if you want to go further back then you might as well go past kaguya and find out her family tree.

Right here is your problem, Ashura is a decedent of Hago. You have to focus on him, because Ashura didn't wake up one day and say "hey Im going to build a clan and name is Senju" The clan is something that came to be around him and his decedents.
You cannot take anything a Zetsu said prior to this chapter as fact, is it possible that Uzumaki's come from Hago's side? Of course, but being a distant relative you have accept the fact that Hago and Hamu are brothers and therefore share the exact same bloodline, causing any clans spawned from their children to be related.
Distant relatives means DISTANT, it is just as likely that they come from a hamura decendent as it is ashura. In fact that makes more logical sense.

You cannot talk about lineages and bloodlines without focusing on the pure link between them, do you not consider the uchiha and senju related because one is indra and the other ashura? Obviously they cannot be blood related according to your logic because their father has no effect on the bloodlines...

 

[InvaderRaz]

I guess your right, I mean I only look at manga facts,
the reason why I was so sure that they came from the senju lineage was because it was mention twice. I mean I thought after these past few chapters that everyone thought that the uzumaki's branch off the senju.

I mean wouldn't that be the logical sense on why naruto is the reincarnation? he is a uzumaki, and uzumaki who branch off the senju has the power of senju running trough there veins.

Now here is the problem that I came across. If ashura can reincarnate himself into hamura's descendant, then why not indra reincarnate into byakugan people, i mean the byakugan most likely came from hamura.

but this chapter,prove a known fact.
that each transmigrater only came from senju and uchiha

Spoiler

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so I can't possible see how ashura would choose an uzumaki who didn't really come from senju lineage.

I really hope you understand,I have a hard time explaining myself, and thanks for not yelling at me or calling me names.

Maybe that why this incarnation is different? Maybe he chose someone outside of the line and that's why the prophecy is coming true.

Maybe the Uzumaki are a result of Senju + One of Hamura's descendants?

 

[InvaderRaz]

It's also been implied a lot that the Hyuga and Uchiha are related even though they are apparently on to seperate sides of the family tree. And I dont remember if any of the Senju/Uchiha knew they were related before the realizations of the last few arcs. *I'm not saying they didn't know but was there ever anyone who outright said it? for example did Tsunade know she was a brother clan to the Uchiha? Did Hashi?

 

[Zavage10]

I completely agree uzamaki descended from asuhra.

Bump........

 

[Zavage10]

Let me bump this thread real quick

 

[Mr Hiru]

Dear hamura people,

Hamura's offspring can not be the one to form the uzumaki clan,

you might be right about the byakugan but not the uzumaki clan.


FIRST.
- Uzumaki clan are bloodrelatives to the senju clan
meaning that they have senju blood running trough there vains.

here

Spoiler

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here

Spoiler

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Now let me ask you this question

HOW CAN HAMURA OFFSPRING MAGICALLY BE BORN WITH SENJU BLOOD RUNNING TROUGH ITS VEINS.

there bye. If your going to post to disagree, please answer the question and why you think he is.

The RAW doesn't speak about a lineage, it speaks about a blood relationship.

Ergo, bad translation. The true meaning behind Zetsu's words are not that Uzumaki came from the Senju, but rather than that, it's more accurate to say that both Uzumaki and Senju have a distant relationship linked to a common ancestor, in this case, Kaguya.

If Kaguya is the direct ancestor, the distant ancestor to both Senju and Uchiha had to be Hamura's descendants.

 

[Cael]

this was a long ago argument, I just re read it and I am not changing my decision.
^I have no idea why you chose kaguya as the common ancestor and not ashura,
I was unaware that kaguya created the senju clan.

and to the post above, also, ashura who only enters the senju lineage to reincarnate why would he cross over to hamura children lineage, if that was the case then indra could have reincarnated into the byukagan clan, but it only says he only enters the uchiha clan

if what you say is true then what is stopping ashura from going into the uchiha clan lineage or the byakugan .

 

[Mr Hiru]

this was a long ago argument, I just re read it and I am not changing my decision.
^I have no idea why you chose kaguya as the common ancestor and not ashura,
I was unaware that kaguya created the senju clan.

1. Because Kaguya is a common ancestor.
2. Kaguya didn't create the Senju Clan. But the fact that Kaguya is blood related to the Senju Clan is undeniable. She is Ashura's grandmother after all.

and to the post above, also, ashura who only enters the senju lineage to reincarnate why would he cross over to hamura children lineage, if that was the case then indra could have reincarnated into the byukagan clan, but it only says he only enters the uchiha clan

if what you say is true then what is stopping ashura from going into the uchiha clan lineage or the byakugan .

With all respect you deserve, the problem in your argument is the bolded word. It's a huge mistake to treat the relationship between Uzumaki and Senju as a Lineage.

Truth be told, long time ago I thought it could be the case... but as for chapter 700 reached its end, we can't say for sure if the Uzumaki and the Senju are directly related through a lineage, since there is no proof of this connection.

The only information that suggests that the Uzumaki are not from the Hagoromo's Lineage (Hagoromo) is that:

- His sons originated the Uchiha and the Senju Clan. There is no other clan related to Hagoromo through Lineage.

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That's the undeniable hard fact. If the Senju had other offsprings (namely the Uzumaki) then Obito would have also included them in this panel, since the Uzumaki would also be direct descendants of the Sage by transitivity, ergo, the Uzumaki would be directly blood-related to the Senju.

As for this, I'd still believe the Uzumaki came from the Senju. But there is another problem.

- The Uzumaki are not directly blood-related to the Senju. They are distant blood-relatives.

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This is the last proof that confirms that the Uzumaki couldn't possibly come directly from the Senju.

---

...so, I have to insist. Don't trust in the word "Lineage". The RAW spoke about "Ketsuen" (血縁, blood-relationship), so the possibility that the common ancestor between the Uzumaki and the Senju are way above Hagoromo.

Answering your first question of course... "Why Kaguya?" is natural. She had the Byakugan, and she is Hagoromo's mother, Ashura's grandmother. That's how all the parameters mets their requirement.

It's not that complicated, is it?

---

Under other point of view... I ask you this question. "How are you related to your cousins?"

 

[zeezzay]

I completely agree mates, uzaki and senju are horgomo desceandant

It is been confirmed in the movie that Noodles couldnt fight against Toneri cause his power is from Horgomo and not hamura, but Hinata gave him Hamura power by holding his hand

Horgomo is Yin
Hamura is Yang

but what I find weird is sasuke is suppose to be hamura yet he is yin and noodles is suppose to be Horgomo and is suppose to be Yang but there seal sign is different sasuke is yang noodles is is yin

 

[zeezzay]

all we know senju and uzamaki are distant blood relatives and that hyuga are uchiha's ancestor which makes zero sense

 

[Mr Hiru]

I completely agree mates, uzaki and senju are horgomo desceandant

It is been confirmed in the movie that Noodles couldnt fight against Toneri cause his power is from Horgomo and not hamura, but Hinata gave him Hamura power by holding his hand

Horgomo is Yin
Hamura is Yang

but what I find weird is sasuke is suppose to be hamura yet he is yin and noodles is suppose to be Horgomo and is suppose to be Yang but there seal sign is different sasuke is yang noodles is is yin

If you're speaking about the leaks, you got it backwards.

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Hagoromo was Yang
Naruto is Yang
Sasuke is Yin
Hamura was Yin

Hinata doesn't have Yin or Yang Release

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all we know senju and uzamaki are distant blood relatives and that hyuga are uchiha's ancestor which makes zero sense

False. We know that the origins of the Uchiha lies with the Hyuuga... not that Uchiha originated within the Hyuuga. This means they originated almost at same time.

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[Zawerni]

- The Uzumaki are not directly blood-related to the Senju. They are distant blood-relatives.


This is the last proof that confirms that the Uzumaki couldn't possibly come directly from the Senju.

Looking at Hashirama and Madara's generation, the Senju and Uchiha would also be "distant blood-relatives", since their greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreat~ (however many greats it actually is) grandfathers were related.

In Kushina's generation, or Mito's generation, the same would apply to the Uzumaki and Senju.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Looking at Hashirama and Madara's generation, the Senju and Uchiha would also be "distant blood-relatives", since their greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreat~ (however many greats it actually is) grandfathers were related.

In Kushina's generation, or Mito's generation, the same would apply to the Uzumaki and Senju.

Exactly.

A direct ancestor/succesor is someone that is related to someone through lineage. In the case of a distant blood relative is someone related through kinship.

Uchiha Clan and Senju Clan have ancestors, which were brothers, so their "distant blood-relative" status is tight. So, any Uchiha clan member is correlated to any Senju clan member through kinship, because Hagoromo is the common ancestor between them. Ergo, the Senju and the Uchiha are cousin-clans.

My point is that the correlation between the Uzumaki and the Senju are not so tight, they are one level more far one from each other, because their common ancestor is Kaguya and not Hagoromo, a claim based on the veridic patterns. She is the mother of Hagoromo (father of Ashura), and she has the Byakugan (which was inherited by Hamura and the Hyuuga bloodline).

 

[Zawerni]

My point is that the correlation between the Uzumaki and the Senju are not so tight, they are one level more far one from each other, because their common ancestor is Kaguya and not Hagoromo, a claim based on the veridic patterns. She is the mother of Hagoromo (father of Ashura), and she has the Byakugan (which was inherited by Hamura and the Hyuuga bloodline).

I'm a bit confused on your standing of the Uzumaki. Are you saying they came from Hamura?

 

[Mr Hiru]

I'm a bit confused on your standing of the Uzumaki. Are you saying they came from Hamura?

Basically yes, since that's what manga facts suggests.

Kaguya had two sons: Hagoromo - Wielder of Rinnegan, and Hamura - Wielder of Byakugan

Hagoromo had two sons: Ashura - the predecessor of Senju, Indra - predecessor of Uchiha. There are not other known clans that descended directly from Hagoromo.

Senju are Distant Blood-Relative to Uzumaki: As there are not other clans that descended from Hagoromo, we must go up at least one level to see if there is another possibility for the Uzumaki to take place.

<< From this part, I can't give you explicit hard proof, because some conjecture takes place. We don't know how much levels we must go up to find the Uzumaki Clan. We only know that Hagoromo has a brother >>

Nearest possibility for the Uzumaki creation: Hamura

He got the Byakugan, so we can infere at some extent that he had a son/daughter which descendants became the Hyuuga Clan (I can't say this being a fact though, because the leaks revealed that Kaguya might be the daughter of an Ootsutsuki and a Hyuuga, which directly indicts that the Hyuuga may also came from another dimension. Anyways, as the leaks still have to be confirmed, I would not treat them as valid source).

As Hamura is the nearest connection to the Senju Clan in the terms of Blood-Relativity, without it being a "lineage" (since the distant blood-relationship would lose meaning), the logical conclusion is to assume that Hamura also gave birth to the Uzumaki branch.

But this doesn't mean that Hamura had to be the distant blood ancestor. If Hamura didn't give birth to the Uzumaki, in order to mantain the Distant Bloodline relationship, the next common ancestor in the list should be Kaguya's brother/sister (if she had any) or uncle/aunt (if she had any).

Hamura being the ancestor of Uzumaki is not a fact. But its the closest bet, for sure.

Edit:

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Check this out.

The "Person" box has the following Lineage (Direct Blood-relative):

Downwards:

- Person
- Children
- Grand Children
- Great Grand Children

Upwards:

- Person
- Parents
- Grand Parents
- Great Grand Parents
- Great Great Grand Parents

...and all other relationships are known just as Consanguinity (Distant Blood-relatives).

If Hagoromo were "Person":

Parents: Kaguya, ???
Brother/Sister: Hamura
Children: Indra, Ashura
Downwards: Uchiha, Senju

And the Uzumaki are distant blood relative (they might be in any of the other boxes, but as they have some special traits such as their longevity, the best bet is to assume that they also inherited the Shinjuu's Fruit Powers, ergo, they descended from Hamura). Conjecture, but not unsupported.

 

[Zawerni]

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I had actually put together some form of chart myself, but it is less pretty as it was done on MSPaint

I stand more with the idea that the Uzumaki branched from the main Senju line.

Let's say a Senju, we'll call him Senju A, has children: Senju B and Senju C. Pretty straightforward, continuing the Senju line.
But Senju A also has a brother, Senju D. Senju D has children with someone from outside the clan (perhaps she even had red hair? ).
Those children would end up becoming the first of the Uzumaki: Uzumaki A and Uzumaki B.

Boom. The Senju now have a new cousin clan, the Uzumaki, as Uzumaki A and Uzumaki B are cousins to Senju B and Senju C since they share a common grandparent (we'll call him Senju Papa).

Now, Uzumaki A and Uzumaki B each have their own children, and Senju B and Senju C have their own children. Those children are then second cousins, since they share a common great grandparent.

Those children have children of their own, and the children then are third cousins, since they share a common great great grandparent.

And it just keeps going from there down the line, each generation getting more distant. By the time we get to Mito's generation, the Uzumaki and Senju have become "distant blood-relatives". And without Hamura being involved as their ancestor.

The Uzumaki's powerful life force and bodies are a trait they share with the Senju.

And my pretty chart:

Spoiler

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[Mr Hiru]

I had actually put together some form of chart myself, but it is less pretty as it was done on MSPaint

I stand more with the idea that the Uzumaki branched from the main Senju line.

Let's say a Senju, we'll call him Senju A, has children: Senju B and Senju C. Pretty straightforward, continuing the Senju line.
But Senju A also has a brother, Senju D. Senju D has children with someone from outside the clan (perhaps she even had red hair? ).
Those children would end up becoming the first of the Uzumaki: Uzumaki A and Uzumaki B.

Boom. The Senju now have a new cousin clan, the Uzumaki, as Uzumaki A and Uzumaki B are cousins to Senju B and Senju C since they share a common grandparent (we'll call him Senju Papa).

Now, Uzumaki A and Uzumaki B each have their own children, and Senju B and Senju C have their own children. Those children are then second cousins, since they share a common great grandparent.

Those children have children of their own, and the children then are third cousins, since they share a common great great grandparent.

And it just keeps going from there down the line, each generation getting more distant. By the time we get to Mito's generation, the Uzumaki and Senju have become "distant blood-relatives". And without Hamura being involved as their ancestor.

The Uzumaki's powerful life force and bodies are a trait they share with the Senju.

And my pretty chart:

Spoiler

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As I said earlier, I used to think like that.

But manga facts speaks explicitely. Hagomomo had two descendant bloodlines: Senju and Uchiha.

If the Uzumaki came from Senju, they would be inside the lineage of Senju, and by transitivity they also would be Hagoromo's descendants.

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Your family tree contradicts what Obito spoke about Hagoromo's descendants.

And also, I'd recommend to take care with your words. You're telling that Senju "would become distant blood-related" (in your chart), but that's actually false. They still would be direct related as a branch of the Senju, because the ancestor of the Uzumaki in your chart is in fact a Senju. So they would still be direct blood-related (lineage).

But manga states that they are distant related (kinship related, consanguinity)

 

[Zawerni]

As I said earlier, I used to think like that.

But manga facts speaks explicitely. Hagomomo had two descendant bloodlines: Senju and Uchiha.

If the Uzumaki came from Senju, they would be inside the lineage of Senju, and by transitivity they also would be Hagoromo's descendants.





Your family tree contradicts what Obito spoke about Hagoromo's descendants.

And also, I'd recommend to take care with your words. You're telling that Senju "would become distant blood-related", but that's actually false. They still would be direct related as a branch of the Senju, because the ancestor of the Uzumaki in your chart is in fact a Senju. So they would still be direct blood-related (lineage).

But manga states that they are distant related (kinship related, consanguinity)

Obito was telling the story of the battle between the two brothers, and the Senju and Uchiha. I don't really see a reason to mention the Uzumaki since they weren't involved in it.

You agreed with me previously that the Uchiha and Senju were indeed distantly related by the time it reached Madara and Hashirama's generation. It would be no different with the Uzumaki. Typically third or fourth cousins are considered "distant relatives".

I'd also have to question, if the Uzumaki aren't tied in with the Senju, why would Ashura (who previously reincarnated into Senju) choose an Uzumaki?

The Databook also states Hamura took lead of the Otsutsuki clan and watched over the Mazo sealed in the moon. And Toneri, one of Hamura's descendants, is the villain in the movie. Toneri is Otsutsuki though, which leads me to believe Hamura's child/children were of the Otsutsuki line to continue watching the Mazo.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Obito was telling the story of the battle between the two brothers, and the Senju and Uchiha. I don't really see a reason to mention the Uzumaki since they weren't involved in it.

You agreed with me previously that the Uchiha and Senju were indeed distantly related by the time it reached Madara and Hashirama's generation. It would be no different with the Uzumaki. Typically third or fourth cousins are considered "distant relatives".

I'd also have to question, if the Uzumaki aren't tied in with the Senju, why would Ashura (who previously reincarnated into Senju) choose an Uzumaki?

The Databook also states Hamura took lead of the Otsutsuki clan and watched over the Mazo sealed in the moon. And Toneri, one of Hamura's descendants, is the villain in the movie. Toneri is Otsutsuki though, which leads me to believe Hamura's child/children were of the Otsutsuki line to continue watching the Mazo.

Let's go part by part, all right?

Obito was telling the story of the battle between the two brothers, and the Senju and Uchiha. I don't really see a reason to mention the Uzumaki since they weren't involved in it.

Throughout the manga, the evidence only have taught us about Senju and Uchiha being the descendants of Hagoromo. The strongest suggestion to this fact is shown in chapter 462: Sasuke's Dogma, when Obito explained the patterns of power inherited by Senju and Uchiha: The descendants of the Six Paths.

If the Uzumaki were directly related to the Senju in this matter, they would have take a huge share in the battle between the Senju and the Uchiha, because the Senju had strong bonds with the Uzumaki (and a direct blood relationship would have been even a greater motive, since if a Senju initiated the Uzumaki bloodline, they would also be Senju). But Obito did not mention the Uzumaki in this matter, even thought the motive could be of great importance, if the Uzumaki started by a Senju clan member.

Therefore, if you were right about Uzumaki coming from Senju, the reason would exist, it would be explicit.

You agreed with me previously that the Uchiha and Senju were indeed distantly related by the time it reached Madara and Hashirama's generation. It would be no different with the Uzumaki. Typically third or fourth cousins are considered "distant relatives".

If the Uzumaki came from a Senju ancestor, these clans would be related through Lineage (direct blood-related), but it's already said otherwise.

Please understand, we are not seeing the shallow branches of the tree, the relativity on a family tree is determined by the ancestor. No matter how much the ancestor is too separated from the person, while this ancestor remains in the quality of ancestor (in a line of blood), they are inside a lineage.

Senju and Uzumaki do not have a lineage relationship, they are distant blood-related, ergo, the ancestor of Uzumaki can't be a Senju.

And no, I didn't agree that Uchiha and Senju were related by time. I agreed because the Uchiha didn't give birth to the Senju nor viceversa. Their ancestors were brothers, so each clan were part of distinct lineages (Ashura's lineage and Indra's lineage).

I'd also have to question, if the Uzumaki aren't tied in with the Senju, why would Ashura (who previously reincarnated into Senju) choose an Uzumaki?

Manga explains this quite explicitely. Check this out.

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It doesn't have anything to do with bloodline. It's related to the personality of the transmigrant. So in this case, this questioning line is unrelated to the current thread.

The Databook also states Hamura took lead of the Otsutsuki clan and watched over the Mazo sealed in the moon. And Toneri, one of Hamura's descendants, is the villain in the movie. Toneri is Otsutsuki though, which leads me to believe Hamura's child/children were of the Otsutsuki line to continue watching the Mazo.

Clearly. But it speaks about the Ootsutsuki who stayed to guard the moon along with Hamura.

The pure-blood Ootsutsuki stayed in the moon, of course. But it doesn't speak about the life Hamura had in the earth, does it? How do you think the Hyuuga took their share in the earth in Narutoverse in first place?

Can you really say that Hamura didn't have sons before departing to the moon along with the Ootsutsuki clan?