[Discussion] Mihawk is not Yonko level

[Bogard]

... You're seriously underestimating the admirals. Despite WB catching Akainu off-guard & being enraged/blood-lust he still suffered serious injuries from Akainu. Akainu was still casually holding down WB's bisento with just one leg, same goes for Kizaru. EoS BB would low-diff. an admiral? That's quite the underestimation of the admirals strength. Admirals are getting mid-diff'd by PK tiers ( Prime WB/Roger/Harp/Dragon/Shanks/etc.) By that logic, EoS Luffy would low-diff. EoS Sanji/Zoro (admiral level)

Eos Luffy and BB will be so far above admirals and yonkous that it's not even funny judging by power-scaling. I already rated EOS Luffy and Zoro ranking in this thread. At the absolute most, they would respectively be capable to low and mid diff a yonkou/admiral:

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Not sure about Sanji though but i guess he should be admiral level

 

[Love Cook]

Low diffing admirals ?

I'm not even going to respond to this bull, I'm out of here.

 

[Bogard]

Well you will see by yourself. Just wait another decade or 2

 

[Punk Hazard]

1. Why would Oda goes to all the trouble and make him Strongest man so that he can just destroy his hype later? Also, if he wasn't strongest man at that time, why title wasn't transfered to trylu strongest guy.

2. Why he wouldn't be "Man" just like WB, instead of being Creature. Also the moment Law mention his title, Nami commented "so he is not human?" Which indicate that title apply to Zoan.

3. Why Kizaru wasn't candidate but Aokiji and Akainu were?

4. I never said that WB Pirates without WB is strong as Yonko crew, but I could likely see that happaning. None crew showed so much powerful members, not to mention that they are by numbers largest crew around.

5. When did I done that? If anything you first brought point of Shanks being not equal to Mihawk..

6. Shanks and Mihawk were alredy very matured persons when Shanks had his arm, both of them very pirates for longer than decade and Shanks was alredy pirate from a Grand Line (possible even from the New World), his measure of growth should already be used (good deal of it).

7. Yes, it does. Zoro was hinted to be First Mate, by Urouge and Bartolomeo. Marco after WB's death was by Gorosei said that he can stop BB. It was said "Marco and WB Pirates" so why do you think they said Marco and WB Pirates and not just WB Pirates?

1-2. Whitebeard's title of World's Strongest Man is meant to include human beings. The same way there is a giant who is a giant who is the strongest giant, a fishman who is the strongest fishman, there is going to be a man who is the strongest man. Kaido's title simply means he isn't exclusive to his species, but all species.

3. Kizaru wasn't a candidate for Fleet Admiral because of his personality. A man who can't even tell the difference between the Den Den Mushi and who simply went ¨Eh **** it¨ as soon as the Heart Pirates evaded one attack isn't fit to run an entire military.

7. There is no first mate of the Strawhat crew. There is nothing that can be applied to Zoro that says ¨He's the first mate¨ that can't also be applied to another crew member.

Urouge and Bartolomeo can just be wrong, as Urouge saw one Strawhat in person once, and Bartolomeo's credibility and info is no where as near as the WG, who are wrong about Chopper's role.

 

[Bogard]

We don't even know when Kaido got the title. For all we know it was after Whitebeard's death. Not to mention the way Nami said so he isn't even human, clearly implied his title is related to monster zoan users. Whitebeard was undoubtely the world strongest man while alive

 

[Punk Hazard]

You don't know if Shanks is a swordsman, there are people who fight with a sword who still don't qualify as a swordsman.

Blackbeard also has used a sword and he has three guns but also two devil fruits and his punches will break your neck and most likely has awesome haki. Is he also a swordsman or is he a gunner, or is he whatever comes in handy for the argument.

In One Piece there is a special breed of people who call themselves swordsman, and take pride in doing that. Zoro, Kin'nemon, Tashigi, Mihawk are all swords(wo)men, but I don't you can qualify people like Law, Blackbeard and Arlong like that.

There is a difference in training and honing your sword skills every day because that is your way of life and having a sword hanging from your belt and whipping it out when you need it.

It's also silly to think that the guy Luffy is trying to surpass is weaker than the guy Zoro wants to beat.

A swordsman is anyone who predominantly and consistently uses a sword. Arlong isn't a swordsman because he doesn't predominantly or consistently use a sword.

Teach isn't a swordsman because he has never been seen using a sword. He uses claws, I'm almost certain you're thinking of Marco, who also isn't a swordsman because he doesn't meet the criteria above. Teach also isn't a gunner because he doesn't use his guns predominantly or consistently.

Shanks is a swordsman because he does use his sword consistently and predominantly. Every instance of Shanks about to battle, he's used his sword. When about to confront Whitebeard, he drew his sword, and this is notable because Whitebeard drew his Bisento AFTER, so it's not like Shanks drew his weapon as a response to Whitbeard using a weapon. When he suspected Ace of wanting to fight, he grabbed his sword. He stopped Sakazuki's fist with his sword, and the first thing he did after declaring battle in the War of the Best was draw his sword. All of these show that Shanks uses his sword predominantly and consistently, thus, he is a swordsman by portrayal so far. Is it possible that Oda may reveal something that shows Shanks doesn't predominantly and consistently? Of course, but we cannot go on guesses on what may happen in the future, only what we have now, and what we have now, is that Shanks is a swordsman.

Law is also a swordsman. Why do you not consider him a swordsman? Because he uses a separate power in conjunction with his blade? Does that mean Zoro and Rayleigh aren't swordsmen because they infuse Haki into their weapons, which are, like Devil Fruit powers, a separate and distinct power from their swordsmanship? If you don't consider Law a swordsman because he uses his sword to conjure his Devil Fruit powers(he also uses it as a normal sword, as he is now against Doflamingo and as he did when dueling Smoker and his Jitte), then you cannot consider Rayleigh or Zoro swordsman because they conjure their Haki into their swords.

Honing your sword every day because that's a way of life doesn't make you a swordsman, it makes you a passionate swordsman. A man that trains his swordsplay once a week or once a month, he's still a swordsman, he just lacks passion.

You are free to not consider Shanks and Law swordsmen, that's fine, but it does not matter to forum discussions, that's your personal feeling. It still stands that, as per portrayal, they are both swordsmen.

Luffy doesn't want to surpass anyone. Luffy has never wanted to get stronger for the sake of surpassing particular people, but he wants to get stronger for the sake of getting stronger so he can be sure to protect his friends, and for the hell of it. Luffy's and Shanks' agreement is to meet together again when Luffy is a great pirate, that has nothing to do with battle. If ¨meet again" had to do with battle, then Shanks could have gone and seen Luffy at Marineford.

That would still put him above Fujitora and Rayleigh then, so Mihawk is above admiral level either way. We saw WB use his Bisento originally, only later on did we get to see his real powers. Shanks could very well be the same considering that was 12 years ago, and in 12 years time, many things can happen, he wasn't a Yonko before, for all we know he was a scrub (who couldn't knock out a sea beast with CoC), yet in that very same 12 year time-frame he became a Yonko. Something must've happened after meeting Rayleigh, who knows.

So be it, Mihawk is stronger than Fujitora and current Rayleigh. There are no problems there.

 

[Apêx1]

*********** also says Kaido's the strongest 'thing' [

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]. He's never classified into a category, he's always generalised with everything you can think of as a fighter.

 

[Punk Hazard]

*********** also says Kaido's the strongest 'thing' [

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]. He's never classified into a category, he's always generalised with everything you can think of as a fight.

I think Viz used the word creature, not thing, but the meaning is essentially the same.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

1-2. Whitebeard's title of World's Strongest Man is meant to include human beings. The same way there is a giant who is a giant who is the strongest giant, a fishman who is the strongest fishman, there is going to be a man who is the strongest man. Kaido's title simply means he isn't exclusive to his species, but all species.

3. Kizaru wasn't a candidate for Fleet Admiral because of his personality. A man who can't even tell the difference between the Den Den Mushi and who simply went ¨Eh **** it¨ as soon as the Heart Pirates evaded one attack isn't fit to run an entire military.

7. There is no first mate of the Strawhat crew. There is nothing that can be applied to Zoro that says ¨He's the first mate¨ that can't also be applied to another crew member.

Urouge and Bartolomeo can just be wrong, as Urouge saw one Strawhat in person once, and Bartolomeo's credibility and info is no where as near as the WG, who are wrong about Chopper's role.

1. Fishman. Either way, in reality Humans are stronger than Fishmans/Gigants. Yeah I know average fishman is stronger than average human, but top Human is stronger than top Fishman, actually admirals and some VA level fighters would be enough for strongest Fishman.

2. When Law mentioned Kaido's title, it was mentioned by Nami that he is not human. Which indicate that his title not count humans in.

3. Pretty much can be said for Aokiji, in the same, but Aokiji don't really support marines as whole, that man still was candidate for marine leader.

4. As I said "de facto" first mate. What we know about the first mates of the series:
- they are 1st to join after their captains (Zoro joined after Luffy), that can be seen in Roger Pirates. SH is parallel to Roger pirates.
- they are 2nd stronger in their crew, after their captain (Zoro is)
- most trusful member in the crew (more or less).

Zoro is de facto first mate of SH Pirates.

5. Why would I believe they were wrong? This is not something they made by themself, it's reputation/rumors. Because they are wrong on one occasion, that doesn't mean that they will be wrong on every occasion, on the contrary Zoro (unlike Chopper) was pretty famous even before joining SH Pirates.

And the most important thing, Oda portrayed him to be FM for whole series, that is evident with 3 reasons I made in point 3 and with saying that he is FM by two characters. Bartolomeo biggest SH fanboy to be wrong? I don't believe so.

 

[Punk Hazard]

1. Fishman. Either way, in reality Humans are stronger than Fishmans/Gigants. Yeah I know average fishman is stronger than average human, but top Human is stronger than top Fishman, actually admirals and some VA level fighters would be enough for strongest Fishman.

2. When Law mentioned Kaido's title, it was mentioned by Nami that he is not human. Which indicate that his title not count humans in.

3. Pretty much can be said for Aokiji, in the same, but Aokiji don't really support marines as whole, that man still was candidate for marine leader.

4. As I said "de facto" first mate. What we know about the first mates of the series:
- they are 1st to join after their captains (Zoro joined after Luffy), that can be seen in Roger Pirates. SH is parallel to Roger pirates.
- they are 2nd stronger in their crew, after their captain (Zoro is)
- most trusful member in the crew (more or less).

Zoro is de facto first mate of SH Pirates.

5. Why would I believe they were wrong? This is not something they made by themself, it's reputation/rumors. Because they are wrong on one occasion, that doesn't mean that they will be wrong on every occasion, on the contrary Zoro (unlike Chopper) was pretty famous even before joining SH Pirates.

And the most important thing, Oda portrayed him to be FM for whole series, that is evident with 3 reasons I made in point 3 and with saying that he is FM by two characters. Bartolomeo biggest SH fanboy to be wrong? I don't believe so.

1. You're not serious with the bolded are you? Please tell me you aren't. And the rest of that doesn't matter, sure you can find a human being who is stronger than the strongest fishman, doesn't change what Kaido's title means.

2. No it does not. Kaido's title distinguishes him from human beings, but it does not exclude human beings. Nami said ¨So he's not even human!¨ because everyone involved in that convo are human. If Luffy, Nami and Law were Fishman, she would have said ¨He's not even a Fishman!¨, same for giants or dwarves.

3. No it doesn't. While Aokiji was lax, he was not mentally incompetent like Kizaru.

4. Not arguing this, this whole First Mate topic is stupid since Oda has made it clear several times that the Strawhat crew are a unit, not some hierarchy.

5. The most credible entity in the One Piece world/series is the World Government. But, even they make mistakes. The most credible source of information in the series was wrong about Chopper's role, this shows that just because a character says something, that doesn't make it true.

Character A says something to Character B about Character C, this does not make it a fact. If events in the manga clearly contradict it, then it's not true. If nothing solid supports it nor contradicts it, such as Kaido's title, it's just up to the individual to believe it or not until it is made clear.

 

[Love Cook]

A swordsman is anyone who predominantly and consistently uses a sword. Arlong isn't a swordsman because he doesn't predominantly or consistently use a sword.

Teach isn't a swordsman because he has never been seen using a sword. He uses claws, I'm almost certain you're thinking of Marco, who also isn't a swordsman because he doesn't meet the criteria above. Teach also isn't a gunner because he doesn't use his guns predominantly or consistently.

Shanks is a swordsman because he does use his sword consistently and predominantly. Every instance of Shanks about to battle, he's used his sword. When about to confront Whitebeard, he drew his sword, and this is notable because Whitebeard drew his Bisento AFTER, so it's not like Shanks drew his weapon as a response to Whitbeard using a weapon. When he suspected Ace of wanting to fight, he grabbed his sword. He stopped Sakazuki's fist with his sword, and the first thing he did after declaring battle in the War of the Best was draw his sword. All of these show that Shanks uses his sword predominantly and consistently, thus, he is a swordsman by portrayal so far. Is it possible that Oda may reveal something that shows Shanks doesn't predominantly and consistently? Of course, but we cannot go on guesses on what may happen in the future, only what we have now, and what we have now, is that Shanks is a swordsman.

Law is also a swordsman. Why do you not consider him a swordsman? Because he uses a separate power in conjunction with his blade? Does that mean Zoro and Rayleigh aren't swordsmen because they infuse Haki into their weapons, which are, like Devil Fruit powers, a separate and distinct power from their swordsmanship? If you don't consider Law a swordsman because he uses his sword to conjure his Devil Fruit powers(he also uses it as a normal sword, as he is now against Doflamingo and as he did when dueling Smoker and his Jitte), then you cannot consider Rayleigh or Zoro swordsman because they conjure their Haki into their swords.

Honing your sword every day because that's a way of life doesn't make you a swordsman, it makes you a passionate swordsman. A man that trains his swordsplay once a week or once a month, he's still a swordsman, he just lacks passion.

You are free to not consider Shanks and Law swordsmen, that's fine, but it does not matter to forum discussions, that's your personal feeling. It still stands that, as per portrayal, they are both swordsmen.

Luffy doesn't want to surpass anyone. Luffy has never wanted to get stronger for the sake of surpassing particular people, but he wants to get stronger for the sake of getting stronger so he can be sure to protect his friends, and for the hell of it. Luffy's and Shanks' agreement is to meet together again when Luffy is a great pirate, that has nothing to do with battle. If ¨meet again" had to do with battle, then Shanks could have gone and seen Luffy at Marineford.

So be it, Mihawk is stronger than Fujitora and current Rayleigh. There are no problems there.

tl;dr

Nice rant didn't read, tell me when Shanks predominantly and consistently used a sword in his 4 panels of manga time since 1999. You know nothing about the guy, so don't act like you do.

5. Why would I believe they were wrong? This is not something they made by themself, it's reputation/rumors. Because they are wrong on one occasion, that doesn't mean that they will be wrong on every occasion, on the contrary Zoro (unlike Chopper) was pretty famous even before joining SH Pirates.

And the most important thing, Oda portrayed him to be FM for whole series, that is evident with 3 reasons I made in point 3 and with saying that he is FM by two characters. Bartolomeo biggest SH fanboy to be wrong? I don't believe so.

Didn't you get the notice in 2010 that the Urogue bit was mistranslated ?

I can't believe that people are still coming up with that ancient piece of manga panel to try and prove that Zoro is the first mate. I bought your de facto brush off for Marco and the WB pirates, but on the same page I already showed you it doesn't list Zoro as a FM. And you can facto all yoou want but the only fact is that Zoro is not the first mate.

It would be stupid to have such a rank in a nine man crew. The worst thing that could happen is that the SH's split up in a group of 4 and a group of 5 people. And one of them isn't "led" by Luffy. Is the four man group going to take orders from Zoro ? No that never happens because all the SH's have very strong personalities and decide to go to do what they think is important.

If you pay close attention in every arc no one is ordering the sh's around, the situation demands them to take action, nami goes after the kids, chopper goes find a cure, Kin'emon goes to find his friend. Franky helps Tontatta, Luffy is in the tournament, Sanji is being a spy, Robin is studying history etc.

No one tells them to go do this or do that. Luffy is the leader and gives one global command, beyond that it's chaos. Strawhats are equals and have no structure.

 

[Apêx1]

tl;dr

Nice rant didn't read, tell me when Shanks predominantly and consistently used a sword in his 4 panels of manga time since 1999. You know nothing about the guy, so don't act like you do.



Didn't you get the notice in 2010 that the Urogue bit was mistranslated ?

I can't believe that people are still coming up with that ancient piece of manga panel to try and prove that Zoro is the first mate. I bought your de facto brush off for Marco and the WB pirates, but on the same page I already showed you it doesn't list Zoro as a FM. And you can facto all yoou want but the only fact is that Zoro is not the first mate.

It would be stupid to have such a rank in a nine man crew. The worst thing that could happen is that the SH's split up in a group of 4 and a group of 5 people. And one of them isn't "led" by Luffy. Is the four man group going to take orders from Zoro ? No that never happens because all the SH's have very strong personalities and decide to go to do what they think is important.

If you pay close attention in every arc no one is ordering the sh's around, the situation demands them to take action, nami goes after the kids, chopper goes find a cure, Kin'emon goes to find his friend. Franky helps Tontatta, Luffy is in the tournament, Sanji is being a spy, Robin is studying history etc.

No one tells them to go do this or do that. Luffy is the leader and gives one global command, beyond that it's chaos. Strawhats are equals and have no structure.

You sound salty af man, relax.

 

[Bogard]

@Apex i don't know where you got Urouge's translation concerning Zoro, but cnet translation(the best i know) says

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"Urouge: Only the first mate, and yet he has a bounty of a hundred-and-twenty million... / He certainly doesn't seem the type to serve under another...... // I suppose that speaks volumes about the Captain........."

 

[Punk Hazard]

tl;dr

Nice rant didn't read, tell me when Shanks predominantly and consistently used a sword in his 4 panels of manga time since 1999. You know nothing about the guy, so don't act like you do.

Show me a more instances of Shanks opting not to use his sword in battle than opting to use his sword? That's what I thought.

Not reading or properly addressing what was said just shows your debating incapabilities.

 

[Apêx1]

@Apex i don't know where you got Urouge's translation concerning Zoro, but cnet translation(the best i know) says

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"Urouge: Only the first mate, and yet he has a bounty of a hundred-and-twenty million... / He certainly doesn't seem the type to serve under another...... // I suppose that speaks volumes about the Captain........."

It's been disproven several times man. The direct words in Japenese were what I posted, it translates to the 'second member' of the crew or second in command, either way, it wouldn't directly imply first mate. I'm pretty sure there was a large wikia discussion about it and there were several fluent Japanese people who had disproven the translations completely.

 

[Bogard]

It's been disproven several times man. The direct words in Japenese were what I posted, it translates to the 'second member' of the crew or second in command, either way, it wouldn't directly imply first mate. I'm pretty sure there was a large wikia discussion about it and there were several fluent Japanese people who had disproven the translations completely.

Where exactly? Do you remember the topic?

 

[Apêx1]

Where exactly? Do you remember the topic?

It's in the misconceptions topic http:// onepiece.wikia. com/wiki/Mythbusters/Misunderstandings_and_Mistranslations

 

[Bogard]

It's in the misconceptions topic http:// onepiece.wikia. com/wiki/Mythbusters/Misunderstandings_and_Mistranslations

Okay thanks

 

[Forbidden Tale]

1. You're not serious with the bolded are you? Please tell me you aren't. And the rest of that doesn't matter, sure you can find a human being who is stronger than the strongest fishman, doesn't change what Kaido's title means.

2. No it does not. Kaido's title distinguishes him from human beings, but it does not exclude human beings. Nami said ¨So he's not even human!¨ because everyone involved in that convo are human. If Luffy, Nami and Law were Fishman, she would have said ¨He's not even a Fishman!¨, same for giants or dwarves.

3. No it doesn't. While Aokiji was lax, he was not mentally incompetent like Kizaru.

4. Not arguing this, this whole First Mate topic is stupid since Oda has made it clear several times that the Strawhat crew are a unit, not some hierarchy.

5. The most credible entity in the One Piece world/series is the World Government. But, even they make mistakes. The most credible source of information in the series was wrong about Chopper's role, this shows that just because a character says something, that doesn't make it true.

Character A says something to Character B about Character C, this does not make it a fact. If events in the manga clearly contradict it, then it's not true. If nothing solid supports it nor contradicts it, such as Kaido's title, it's just up to the individual to believe it or not until it is made clear.

1. I'm completely serious.

2. As you said VIZ said "creature" and not "thing" after that Nami commented so he is not "human".

Creature is most often used as a synonym for animal.

So, it's not that Nami say that he is strongest out of all races, it is that he is strongest out of Zoans.

3. Incomplete menatly but "loyal" or complete and "not royal", I would go with royal.

4. I agree, that's why I am using "de facto" before typing First Mate.

5. Because WG made mistake that don't mean that Bartolomeo and Urouge made theirs.

It don't have to be true, but it also can. It's still of more value that simple "they are wrong", so I will stick to it as long as manga don't say otherwise.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Didn't you get the notice in 2010 that the Urogue bit was mistranslated ?

???

I can't believe that people are still coming up with that ancient piece of manga panel to try and prove that Zoro is the first mate.

Ancient manga panel? So you think that changed?
Oh, well, Bartolome's statament is not really that ancient as you suggest.

I bought your de facto brush off for Marco and the WB pirates, but on the same page I already showed you it doesn't list Zoro as a FM. And you can facto all yoou want but the only fact is that Zoro is not the first mate.

Yes, I agree, Zoro is not official FM of SH, he is de facto FM of SH Pirates.

It would be stupid to have such a rank in a nine man crew. The worst thing that could happen is that the SH's split up in a group of 4 and a group of 5 people. And one of them isn't "led" by Luffy. Is the four man group going to take orders from Zoro ? No that never happens because all the SH's have very strong personalities and decide to go to do what they think is important.

If you pay close attention in every arc no one is ordering the sh's around, the situation demands them to take action, nami goes after the kids, chopper goes find a cure, Kin'emon goes to find his friend. Franky helps Tontatta, Luffy is in the tournament, Sanji is being a spy, Robin is studying history etc.

No one tells them to go do this or do that. Luffy is the leader and gives one global command, beyond that it's chaos. Strawhats are equals and have no structure.

See above.