[VS] CS2 Sasuke vs SM Naruto

[lanakui8]

The chakra is only in Sasuke's eyes. Not in his body. Shisui's chakra was only in Danzos eye socket, not the rest of his body.

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that's because danzou was using genjutsu, which requires him to use shisui's chakra for his eye. If you use chakra to power a doujutsu, the chakra will be built up in the eye.

 

[Draphsin]

Although SM Naruto is superior in almost every way, he still has no counter to genjutsu (since it's Pain Arc SM Naruto), so I'd have to say Hebi Sasuke wins mid-high diff. Open to hearing an argument against genjutsu being Naruto's end.

I guess I didn't address genjutsu in my main post but it should be a pretty simple counter: The partner method.

Naruto has a wide range of very mobile toads, if naruto was to ever be placed in a genjutsu [which he knows about] he could easily have a toad on standby to wake him up. [

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[lanakui8]

Fluid movements refers to better movements as in Sasuke predicting his opponent's movements, and reacting both physically and mentally better. Do you have trouble picking out key points? Why would it be my problem? All I asked for was if Sasuke's physical speed increased.

He didn't say fluid movements, he said 'movements', and if fluid movements refers to Sasuke reacting physically and mentally better then that proves that it increased his speed as sharingan does not increase your physical reactions, it only increases your mental reactions allowing you to physically react earlier.

Why do only I have the burden of proof to show that Sasuke's physical speed increased? You should also have to show that sasuke's physical speed didn't increase as well.

Spoiler

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What ever Chakra he felt in Itachi's power, it was through his eyes. That ''Chakra'' sprouts from the Sharingan. I'll wait for your fan-fict that Sasuke got physically faster by that Chakra.

Except Tobirama's talking about the three tomoe sharingan, he's not even talking about the MS let alone the EMS which is achieved not by a change in the brain, but by fusing two eyes together. Not only that, but tobirama only said the chakra sprouts in the brain, he said nothing about whether or not the chakra stays in the brain and is somehow unique and independant from the rest of the chakra in the user's body.

So nope, Tobirama's statement doesn't have anything to do with showing that the chakra of the eyes stays in the eyes or brain, nor does it have anything to do with showing that sasuke's EMS chakra is not used for his non-doujutsu ninjutsu.

 

[LuckyMan]

that's because danzou was using genjutsu, which requires him to use shisui's chakra for his eye. If you use chakra to power a doujutsu, the chakra will be built up in the eye.

Building up the chakra in his eye won't make the chakra not appear throughout his chakra network if its flowing through his body. Danzo was using his own chakra from Hashiramas cells as the main power source for KA anyway. Danzo said he could only use KA a couple times a day and we know Shusui using his own KA results in a 10 year cool down from the chakra drain.

 

[Benjamin King]

He didn't say fluid movements, he said 'movements', and if fluid movements refers to Sasuke reacting physically and mentally better then that proves that it increased his speed as sharingan does not increase your physical reactions, it only increases your mental reactions allowing you to physically react earlier.

In other words, you're agreeing his mental reactions allows him to react better physically. Therefore, his physical speed itself was boosted. I knew you could better.

Except there is no evidence that he got physically faster or scans, meaning I don't have to show any.

Except Tobirama's talking about the three tomoe sharingan, he's not even talking about the MS let alone the EMS which is achieved not by a change in the brain, but by fusing two eyes together. Not only that, but tobirama only said the chakra sprouts in the brain, he said nothing about whether or not the chakra stays in the brain and is somehow unique and independant from the rest of the chakra in the user's body.

So nope, Tobirama's statement doesn't have anything to do with showing that the chakra of the eyes stays in the eyes or brain, nor does it have anything to do with showing that sasuke's EMS chakra is not used for his non-doujutsu ninjutsu.

MS and EMS come from Sharingan and maintain its power, genius.

 

[lanakui8]

Building up the chakra in his eye won't make the chakra not appear throughout his chakra network if its flowing through his body. Danzo was using his own chakra from Hashiramas cells as the main power source for KA anyway. Danzo said he could only use KA a couple times a day and we know Shusui using his own KA results in a 10 year cool down from the chakra drain.

After reading your post, i took the liberty of going back and reading the chapter. I then stumbled upon the entire page which has Ao stating the chakra isn't just in danzou's eye, it's the chakra in his right shoulder and arm as well:

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Plus, if the chakra just stayed in the eye like you are claiming, then madara wouldn't have been able to use things like susanoo or preta path without his eyes, obito wouldn't have been almost taken over by the chakra of madara's rinnegan, nagato wouldn't have extremely powerful chakra as a result of the rinnegan.

 

[lanakui8]

In other words, you're agreeing his mental reactions allows him to react better physically. Therefore, his physical speed itself was boosted. I knew you could better.

.....then if you agree that his physical speed is boosted, then you'd be conceding that EMS Sasuke vs madara has nothing to do with Hebi sasuke.

Except there is no evidence that he got physically faster or scans, meaning I don't have to show any.

You're making a positive assertion, therefore you have the burden of proof to support that assertion with an argument regardless if you believe or want to assert that there is no evidence that he got physically faster.

MS and EMS come from Sharingan and maintain its power, genius.

Concession accepted. Go back, reply to my arguments instead of spweing some dumbed down one-liner that is refuted by the very argument you've quoted.

 

[Benjamin King]

.....then if you agree that his physical speed is boosted, then you'd be conceding that EMS Sasuke vs madara has nothing to do with Hebi sasuke.

Which I haven't agreed, since you haven't provided me scans of his physical speed, and physical speed alone, if it increased. And so far, there is no evidence. Concession accepted.

You're making a positive assertion, therefore you have the burden of proof to support that assertion with an argument regardless if you believe or want to assert that there is no evidence that he got physically faster.

Concession accepted for avoiding my request and still asserting he got faster with no evidence.

Concession accepted. Go back, reply to my arguments instead of spweing some dumbed down one-liner that is refuted by the very argument you've quoted.

Concession accepted for denying MS and EMS come from Sharingan, and alongside the scan requests I keep asking for.

 

[lanakui8]

Which I haven't agreed, since you haven't provided me scans of his physical speed, and physical speed alone, if it increased. And so far, there is no evidence. Concession accepted.

But you literally just said that if his mental reactions increased so would his physical speed.

Concession accepted for avoiding my request and still asserting he got faster with no evidence.

I literally gave you an argument for how he got faster. You on the otherhand have asserted he didn't get faster, yet have provided no argument to back up that assertion and therefore your argument is worthless.

Concession accepted for denying MS and EMS come from Sharingan, and alongside the scan requests I keep asking for.

You don't understand how tacit concessions work. If someone just completely ignores your post, then it's a tacit concession. I have never done that, I've addressed exactly what you've typed and shown why it's either fallacious or that it ignores my own posts.

So you claiming that I've conceded the argument on the grounds of the bolded would be you conceding my argument as you've failed to address it for reasons i've given in the last post. You'd also be conceding the other argument since you've given zero reasons to believe your argument is true, and the only thing you can seem to come up with is the burden of proof fallacy which is you claiming that I have to disprove your argument else your argument is true.

So go back, address my arguments and provide reasoning for your own other than "I'm right until proven wrong", until then I accept your concession on all points.

 

[Benjamin King]

But you literally just said that if his mental reactions increased so would his physical speed.

No, I didn't. I agreed his physical speed alongside the Choku Tomoe allows him to move better, as he's predicting the enemy's movements. I never once agreed that his physical speed itself increased.

I literally gave you an argument for how he got faster. You on the otherhand have asserted he didn't get faster, yet have provided no argument to back up that assertion and therefore your argument is worthless.

No, you didn't. You only showed his mental reactions allows him to keep up better with his opponents. You never showed me his physical speed increased on its own.

You don't understand how tacit concessions work. If someone just completely ignores your post, then it's a tacit concession. I have never done that, I've addressed exactly what you've typed and shown why it's either fallacious or that it ignores my own posts.

You didn't provide me any evidence I requested, at all. Keep typing nonsense, you're only showing you're delusional for thinking you countered the point. The rest of your post is invalid to the discussion.

 

[lanakui8]

No, I didn't. I agreed his physical speed alongside the Choku Tomoe allows him to move better, as he's predicting the enemy's movements. I never once agreed that his physical speed itself increased.

You said that "his physical speed itself was boosted"

No, you didn't. You only showed his mental reactions allows him to keep up better with his opponents. You never showed me his physical speed increased on its own.

I did it via the chakra form the EMS argument. Plus, where's your argument that his physical speed DIDN'T increase as well? Does three tomoe sharingan sasuke have the physical speed feats of doing what madara did to SM Naruto?

You didn't provide me any evidence I requested, at all. Keep typing nonsense, you're only showing you're delusional for thinking you countered the point. The rest of your post is invalid to the discussion.

i've literally addressed all of this in the last post, and therefore since you've just ignored my post you're conceded it as an ignored argument is a conceded one.

 

[ARGUS]

Naruto still wrecks him

 

[Benjamin King]

You said that "his physical speed itself was boosted"

Misconstrued my post, I guess? What I meant is that his physical speed would allow him to keep better with opponents with his Choku Tomoe.

I did it via the chakra form the EMS argument. Plus, where's your argument that his physical speed DIDN'T increase as well? Does three tomoe sharingan sasuke have the physical speed feats of doing what madara did to SM Naruto?

I don't need to address evidence, because that ''evidence'' itself doesn't exist, so we would rely on what we saw. Physical speed? Yes.

i've literally addressed all of this in the last post, and therefore since you've just ignored my post you're conceded it as an ignored argument is a conceded one.

Boy, you are so delusional. Next reply will be the last one.

 

[lanakui8]

Misconstrued my post, I guess? What I meant is that his physical speed would allow him to keep better with opponents with his Choku Tomoe.

well, then that also requires an argument that his physical speed wasn't boosted.

Not only that, but once again if his EMS does increase his reactions, then based on what would he be as fast as madara or would that have been a speed feat for sasuke?

I don't need to address evidence, because that ''evidence'' itself doesn't exist, so we would rely on what we saw. Physical speed? Yes.

So once again that would be you conceding the argument as you're pretending that my EMS chakra argument does not exist. if you believe that 3 T sharingan sasuke has the physical speed of EMS Sasuke and can do what madara did to SM Naruto, where's the evidence of that? Where is Sasuke doing something like madara did to someone who's fast and reflexive enough to blitz sandaime raikage?

Boy, you are so delusional. Next reply will be the last one.

Once again, since this doesn't address my arguments it's just a concession on your part.

 

[makosheva7]

I guess I didn't address genjutsu in my main post but it should be a pretty simple counter: The partner method.

Naruto has a wide range of very mobile toads, if naruto was to ever be placed in a genjutsu [which he knows about] he could easily have a toad on standby to wake him up. [

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True but I think Naruto would need Shima to summon all of the giant toads to counteract the swiftness of Sasuke's genjutsu. But based on this, Naruto should win mid diff as I see that being the only significant obstacle he needs to overcome.

 

[Sound]

Counter to genjutsu? Don't fight looking at his eyes or fight with eyes closed. He's a Sage.​

 

[Apêx1]

Counter to genjutsu? Don't fight looking at his eyes or fight with eyes closed. He's a Sage.​

That still severely restricts his ability to fight as Kabuto said not being able to see affected him badly. Not to mention nothing suggests Naruto can use his Frog Kata proficiently while not looking, Kabuto doing it doesn't equate to Naruto doing it, as Kabuto likely trained due to Sasuke, Itachi and Obito. Naruto only ever used rasengan while blinded, won't help him here when blind. Not to mention he can't force his eyes shut, pain infliction may make him forget to keep his eyes closed, he is no Kabuto who can do it forcefully and then no longer have to think about it.

 

[lanakui8]

That still severely restricts his ability to fight as Kabuto said not being able to see affected him badly.

when kabuto say that? Plus, since when has the inability too look the other person in the eye mean genjutsu gg? Did Ei get hit by sasuke's genjutsu? Did minato get hit by obito's genjutsu? Did gaara, tsunade, mei or oonoki get hit by madara's genjutsu? Deidara was only hit by a trickery genjutsu by sasuke, and that's a deidara who wanted to be caught. Sasuke is not catching someone like Naruto in genjutsu especially when naruto's a sensor, itachi needed koto crow to get pre-pain arc base naruto into one, naruto has kagebunshins, and sasuke's most powerful genjutsu with the three tomoe only paralyzes and gets nigh instantly broken out of by orochimaru.

Not to mention nothing suggests Naruto can use his Frog Kata proficiently while not looking, Kabuto doing it doesn't equate to Naruto doing it, as Kabuto likely trained due to Sasuke, Itachi and Obito.

We've seen how

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naruto uses frog katas just fine.

Naruto only ever used rasengan while blinded, won't help him here when blind. Not to mention he can't force his eyes shut, pain infliction may make him forget to keep his eyes closed, he is no Kabuto who can do it forcefully and then no longer have to think about it.

Why does naruto only using rasengan while blinded = he can't use anything else while blinded? that doesn't even make sense. Pain infliction forces people to close their eyes rather than open them.

Genjutsu is a complete non-factor in this fight, sasuke's genjutsu would at best immobilize naruto for an instant, and the only way he's getting naruto into one is if he forces naruto into one like Madara did to Ei.

 

[Sound]

That still severely restricts his ability to fight as Kabuto said not being able to see affected him badly. Not to mention nothing suggests Naruto can use his Frog Kata proficiently while not looking, Kabuto doing it doesn't equate to Naruto doing it, as Kabuto likely trained due to Sasuke, Itachi and Obito. Naruto only ever used rasengan while blinded, won't help him here when blind. Not to mention he can't force his eyes shut, pain infliction may make him forget to keep his eyes closed, he is no Kabuto who can do it forcefully and then no longer have to think about it.

All what he has to do is not see directly on his eyes and use HM danger sensing to anticipate his movements. [

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] Same as Gai who only looks at at body movements but better since Naruto can see body movements + anticipate danger. [

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] [

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[Rιver]

Juugo said Itachi was still tired fromt he Itachi fight. Sasuke only ever got schooled by speed alone when he looked away from Bee after genjutsu. Apart from that he did a backflip on v1 Bee's back and said it was easy to see his movements. v1 Bee's speed is far above 3rd Raikage, 3rd Raikage has little to no speed feats. No need to attribute his father's speed to him.

Except dodging fastest Fūton, FRS with no much difficulty. Twice. And Raikage was noted to be extemely fast. He logically be as fast as V1 E, but you still can't prove that Hebi Sasuke is faster than HM Naruto because you also can't tell whether E or Sandaime is faster.

Since when can Ma and Pa be used in here? Last I checked they were incompatible with non-perfect Jin Naruto. Them standing around means they get caught in genjutsu and tongue out Naruto's **** (literally).

No one said they are to fuse, they can be used in combat even without fusion like last time.

Team 7 dodged 30% Itachi's, in which Kakashi realised there was something wrong. Not to mention Sasuke's Katon Dragon can be shet continuously. Bunta is here? Good thing, he's either been killed by Manda or been used in a genjutsu to kill Naruto. Naruto has no way in knowing Bunta is in genjutsu, so he's lost already.

The Katon volume can change but not it's speed, also KM Naruto without Shunshin and inferior precognition dodged Itachi's Katon. Itachi severely injured and sick dodged one from 5 meter range. Even Sakura dodged it back then.

The dragon Katon that were dodged by injured, sick and exhausted Itachi? Might as well use Shunshin blitz as an argument because Naruto senses the build up and dodges it.

Yes, he will sense if his chakra is messed up. That's a way to spot it and Naruto or his clone just breaks him out of it.

Again, Manda is not even a factor.

I meant Aoda/Manda, but alright.

He doesn't have Aoda and Manda is thrown away.

Naruto can now throw Manda who is many times larger than anything he's ever carried or thrown? Nope. Manda briefly survived C0, not a chance in hell does FRS kill him, not to mention Sasuke won't watch Naruto throwing FRS, nor will Manda, who can dig into the ground with ease to avoid it. Naruto can summon 3 toads? Good thing, he's nearly out of chakra and it's become Manda and Bunta vs Gamahiro and Gamaken, it's clear who the victor is in this scuffle.

Naruto literally threw half Kurama with sheer strength Manda is not any bigger than that, and he gets thrown to oblivion or Naruto slices him with FRS.

FRS can be a cutting weapon and expands so it cuts Manda in half with relative ease. And no, Naruto's clone keeps him held in place with his strength if he does that. But 3 boss summons take care of him.

Ken and Bunta cut up Manda, last time he could barely handle two summons also he has Hiro to help them so Manda gets sliced up.

You're telling me Naruto runs out before Sasuke? What.

Again, since when is v1 Ay=3rd Raikage. Show me a scan as I don't recall this at all. Kumite isn't touching Sasuke's superior reach with Raiton enhanced Kusanagi/Chidori Eiso. Chidori Nagashi isn't being dodged either. Only works if Sasuke is in Naruto's range, which he will never be in.

It's the only logical way, though we have no other way to prove who's superior in CQC.

Kusanagi isn't even a factor, Naruto dodges it and punches Sasuke with Kawazu Kumite. Naruto tanks the Chidori Nagashi with his durability.

Based on what? Last I checked SM users were definitely piercable, Sasuke's Raiton being one of the most penetrative attacks in the manga. Again, I need to see feats of him stopping something slightly less penetrative than Chidori with his bare hands/body.

Naruto's HM has never been pierced any other than himself, which he was willing to do. But since Kabuto dodged it with ease, Naruto will as well. Deidara has also dodged his blade Naruto dodges it and wrecks his face.

Never said they were HM.. Naruto did 2 Kage Bunshin, 2 base Rasengans, 2 Chou Odama Rasengan's and 1 FRS and was drained. Don't see how he does much to Sasuke in such a brief time. And yes, Kabuto's horn was cut off by a normal sword, not a Raiton enhanced sword. Don't even try to debate Raiton not cutting through him like butter. How can nagashi be tanked? Wtf, it's not necessarily a physically damaging attack ..

So what's your point then? Firstly, Naruto can always replenish his Senjutsu that energizes his body. Secondly Sasuke used in his fight with Itachi two Katon techniques, Oral Rebirth, genjutsu and a few Chidori's. He won't be lasting anywhere near as long as Naruto based on those stats in the first round. And no, it was Sasuke's Kusanagk as he has always used. That cuts through steel like butter.

Sasuke tanked in CM2 his Chidori, B took on Chidori and wasn't even that fatigued, Sasuke took on Darui's Ranton without much damage at all in base. HM Naruto won't be affected a bit. And Nagashi is much, much less concentrated than all of these.

Sharingan sees through the floor. Sharingan saw through this cloud [

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] whereas the Rinnegan couldn't. And yes, Nagato is looking in the direction of the cloud, similarly to the paths who got taken out and couldn't see. Sharingan can only not see the chakra signature of the jutsu initiator, hence hidden mist contains the same chakra signature as the user, so you can't see him as you cannot differentiate. Naruto and Pa will be different, thus they are still both seen and attacked without difficulties.

Except that SA used bugs and dust to cover up the entire SA against Obito's and Madara's Sharingan so your point stays moot.

You ignored genjutsu, no counters?..

If Naruto is affected then Ma and Pa will break him out, if Ma or Pa is affected Naruto breaks them out. And they will all sense if one is affected so genjutsu is not a factor here.