Minato vs Tobirama *No FTG*

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

Aptitude for one Jutsu (Shunshin) has nothing to do with the boost that is granted by Bijuu Chakra. 4T and 6T weren't in control at all; naruto powers up, look what happens. Obito isn't faster than KCM Minato with his already impressive speed and reactions failed to avoid being kicked by Obito in an immobile state. Obito isn't fast, yet he blitzed Hiruzen quite easily in this mindless state - who kept up with Tobirama.

Still waiting on some form of scan that proves your claim.

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

Aptitude for one Jutsu (Shunshin) has nothing to do with the boost that is granted by Bijuu Chakra. 4T and 6T weren't in control at all; naruto powers up, look what happens. Obito isn't faster than KCM Minato who with his already impressive speed and reactions augmented by the Kyuubi's chakra failed to avoid being kicked by Obito in an immobile state. Obito isn't fast, yet he blitzed Hiruzen quite easily in this mindless state - who kept up with Tobirama.

Still waiting on some form of scan that proves your claim.

Fixed .

 

[Princessu Kaaantchan]

The same mindless Obito that blitzed EMS Sasuke and Naruto

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[Bogard]

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I see, he still isn't used to the Jubi

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It seems Obito's mind is barely standing to Jubi's power. Like he can't control it

Is it okay for you to understand the drastical control difference?

 

[KidGamer65]

Naruto when taking control of Kyubi's chakra is much faster than Kyubi. It's all about control. When Obito took control of Jubi's chakra, he could move faster because he could use it to better ends than Jubi to the point even EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto were too slow for him and needed a long battle adaptation time just to follow his movements. It's not only in intelligence. Jubito when Obito took control drastically changed in form. You'd to be stupid not to see the difference

Only because Naruto couldn't attain the mode without actually taking control of Kurama's chakra. Not because control is the key. Obito didn't need to control the Juubi to be able to enter the mode itself. So him and Naruto's situations aren't the same. You guys keep on reiterating that Obito changed in form, and became overall better, but that doesn't mean every single aspect of himself increased, it only means he gained control of his power (Which also let him get the Gudo Dama) There is zero evidence that his physical parameters would increase. None whatsoever.

Control=/=Increase in speed, strength, and whatnot.

I love the argument they're using. Inteligence is directly proportional to speed now? Hilarious.

Lol, it doesn't even make sense man. Though I don't know why they are arguing this. Minato never reacted to V2 Juubito's speed anyway.

 

[KidGamer65]

No, Pa never said that or rather you misunderstood his statement. Here is the manga scan:

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It's all about balance. It depends on the spiritual and physical energy you gather to form the chakra. If the physical and spiritual energy you gather for the chakra is small, you only need a respectively small amount of natural energy to enter SM as long as it balances out with the physical and spiritual energy

No, that's when you make Ninjutsu. Even then, you don't take a set amount of Spiritual Energy and balance it with a set amount of Physical Energy.

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To enter Sage Mode you have to balance your current amount of Spiritual Energy, with your physical and the Nature Energy that you are in taking.

So if you take in less than what you currently have, there is no balance.

 

[Haizaki]

Lol people trying to force it too much. Minato himself says it takes long while = It takes a long while. Why try to force or take words from his own mouth? Lol too funny.

 

[Bogard]

No, that's when you make Ninjutsu. Even then, you don't take a set amount of Spiritual Energy and balance it with a set amount of Physical Energy.

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To enter Sage Mode you have to balance your current amount of Spiritual Energy, with your physical and the Nature Energy that you are in taking.

So if you take in less than what you currently have, there is no balance.

Not really:

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Chakra is a mix of spiritual+physical energy. That's part1 logic. It's with chakra that you use ninjutsu. However to use senjutsu, you need sage chakra and to have sage chakra, you need to add natural energy into it. It's how it works

Re-read Pa's sentence again. It's if you take less natural energy than your actual physical/spiritual energy that nothing would happen and if you take more, you turn in frog. All depend on the quantity of your spiritual/physical energy

Lol people trying to force it too much. Minato himself says it takes long while = It takes a long while. Why try to force or take words from his own mouth? Lol too funny.

If he didn't pull off the feat he did against Madara jin, i'd have never tried to argue against it, but what he did against Madara forces me to find an alternative assumption concerning Minato's wordings back then to at least make this manga logical. I know logic went out of the window a lot in this manga, but at least i'm trying to think there can still have some rational thoughts in some of them

 

[Pragmatic]

One word
Senjutsu

Minato stomps

 

[Apêx1]

Everything being argued is in vain. Minato's feats against v2 Juubito are doable by the likes of Konohamaru.

-Get owned and stuck by a Gudo Dama and then teleport away with the explosion on you. -Reaction Feat
-See Juubito use a Gudo Dama and teleport Naruto away when Sasuke utilised Susano to do so long before. -Reaction Feat.
Please.. Konohamaru can do both of these in the same way Minato did, so how these are being attributed as 'reaction feats' is beyond me.

 

[KidGamer65]

Not really:

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Chakra is a mix of spiritual+physical energy. That's part1 logic. It's with chakra that you use ninjutsu. However to use senjutsu, you need sage chakra and to have sage chakra, you need to add natural energy into it. It's how it works

Um, that's what I said. You said that entering Sage Mode depends on the accumulated physical/spiritual energy that is used to make chakra, and I said no, that's for Ninjutsu. Making Senjutsu takes your total Spiritual/Physical Energies, not the amount you choose to gather.

Re-read Pa's sentence again. It's if you take less natural energy than your actual physical/spiritual energy that nothing would happen and if you take more, you turn in frog. All depend on the quantity of your spiritual/physical energy

Yeah, meaning unless Minato takes in as much Nature Energy as he has Spiritual and Physical Energy, he can't enter Sage Mode. So he didn't just gather a tiny bit, unless you believe he only has a tiny bit of chakra.

 

[Great Master Minato]

One Thing Guys...Everyone Who Has A Contract With Toads Can Reverse Summon Himself To Mount Myoboku Right?
So Minato Can Create A Shadow Clone & The Clone Will Reverse Summon Himself To Mount Myoboku & Gather Nature Energy & The Real Minato Can Enter SM...
There You Go...SM Minato...

 

[KidGamer65]

One Thing Guys...Everyone Who Has A Contract With Toads Can Reverse Summon Himself To Mount Myoboku Right?
So Minato Can Create A Shadow Clone & The Clone Will Reverse Summon Himself To Mount Myoboku & Gather Nature Energy & The Real Minato Can Enter SM...
There You Go...SM Minato...

A Toad would have to summon him. So he'd have to call a toad, tell it to summon him to the Mountain, then he'd have to let the toad leave and summon him back to Myoboku.

Though summoning is restricted, so that isn't going to work. Give up on Minato entering Sage Mode. Give up on him winning.

 

[elsepa]

Minato gets raped.Wankers,please, your fav cant win every VS.

 

[Rinnesense]

It would be a good match. There are a few points that don't seem to make much sense no matter how they are worded. (1.) Tobirama having superior chakra. (2.) Tobirama having better reactions. (3.) Minato's inability to use sage mode if needed.

(1.) As proven in the manga, Tobirama knew of the Myobokuzan toads. His own brother had sage mode. In the era in which he grew up, it stands to reason that he would have attempted to attain the sage mode. Logically, it seems like two possible things prevented him from doing that. It was either not having enough chakra, or, it pertained to not being on Minato's level in terms of chakra control. I'd like to think that Tobirama had superb chakra control (FTG, Shadow Clones,...ETC). I feel that Minato outclasses him in it, though (Space-time barrier, rasengan, FTG level 3). I think that Minato's perfect sage mode is proof of him having more chakra, having better chakra control, or both.

(2.) I like Tobirama (Minato wished he had his swag), but Juubito tore the guy in half. If Tobirama were alive, the moment that he would have been pierced by Juubito is the moment that he would have been dead. Based on the position of the tags on Juubito's body, they appeared to have been thrown all at once (IMHO). Essentially just landing where they may. I do give Tobirama credit for placing his seal. It took quick hands to do that, as well as toss the tags. I will say that I think Tobirama has superior striking speed. I'll never believe that he has better reactions. Minato lost an arm to a superior Juubito. Tobirama lost half his body to an inferior Juubito. Yes, the version does make a difference.

(3.) Minato is the type of guy to do things fast. He has his own standards of what may be fast, or slow. His mention of gathering natural energy at a slow pace is not indicative of his overall ability to gather it relative to others. Put what he said in context. 10 seconds to gather natural energy may very well be the equivalent of a couple of minutes to Minato. In this manga, one needs to look at the context in which something is being said, and who says it.

Overall, it would be a great match. But, Minato would beat Tobirama. This is all IMHO. I do think the match would be relatively close.

 

[KidGamer65]

It would be a good match. There are a few points that don't seem to make much sense no matter how they are worded. (1.) Tobirama having superior chakra. (2.) Tobirama having better reactions. (3.) Minato's inability to use sage mode if needed.

(1.) As proven in the manga, Tobirama knew of the Myobokuzan toads. His own brother had sage mode. In the era in which he grew up, it stands to reason that he would have attempted to attain the sage mode. Logically, it seems like two possible things prevented him from doing that. It was either not having enough chakra, or, it pertained to not being on Minato's level in terms of chakra control. I'd like to think that Tobirama had superb chakra control (FTG, Shadow Clones,...ETC). I feel that Minato outclasses him in it, though (Space-time barrier, rasengan, FTG level 3). I think that Minato's perfect sage mode is proof of him having more chakra, having better chakra control, or both.

You are going to need evidence that Tobirama attempted to attain Sage Mode, and failed. Him not deciding to get Sage Mode only means that he didn't choose to get it. Madara has enough chakra to use Sage Mode, yet he never obtained it. Does that mean he can't? No, because he's already demonstrated that he has enough chakra to use it.

(2.) I like Tobirama (Minato wished he had his swag), but Juubito tore the guy in half. If Tobirama were alive, the moment that he would have been pierced by Juubito is the moment that he would have been dead. Based on the position of the tags on Juubito's body, they appeared to have been thrown all at once (IMHO). Essentially just landing where they may. I do give Tobirama credit for placing his seal. It took quick hands to do that, as well as toss the tags. I will say that I think Tobirama has superior striking speed. I'll never believe that he has better reactions. Minato lost an arm to a superior Juubito. Tobirama lost half his body to an inferior Juubito. Yes, the version does make a difference.

Tobirama being alive or dead is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is, his reflexes act quick enough for him to mentally react, and physically react to Juubito by tagging him, before he gets hit by Juubito's Shunshin blitz attack. Does Minato have a feat of reacting to anyone that fast? No. So Tobirama has better reactions.

Minato losing an arm to V2 Juubito doesn't mean that he has better reactions. Since when was a negative for Minato a positive for your argument? And no, when it comes to physical parameters, there is literally nothing that implies there is a difference between V2 and V1 Juubito.

(3.) Minato is the type of guy to do things fast. He has his own standards of what may be fast, or slow. His mention of gathering natural energy at a slow pace is not indicative of his overall ability to gather it relative to others. Put what he said in context. 10 seconds to gather natural energy may very well be the equivalent of a couple of minutes to Minato. In this manga, one needs to look at the context in which something is being said, and who says it.

Time is time. Minato stated that it takes too long to knead the chakra, so it takes too long, and he added on that he isn't good at Senjutsu, meaning that it takes too long for him to knead the chakra, which makes him not good at it, which means that he takes longer than a perfected Sage, like Naruto, would take.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

(1.) As proven in the manga, Tobirama knew of the Myobokuzan toads. His own brother had sage mode. In the era in which he grew up, it stands to reason that he would have attempted to attain the sage mode. Logically, it seems like two possible things prevented him from doing that. It was either not having enough chakra, or, it pertained to not being on Minato's level in terms of chakra control. I'd like to think that Tobirama had superb chakra control (FTG, Shadow Clones,...ETC). I feel that Minato outclasses him in it, though (Space-time barrier, rasengan, FTG level 3). I think that Minato's perfect sage mode is proof of him having more chakra, having better chakra control, or both.

Why does it have to be 2 options? Why cant it have more options to why Tobirama cant use Senjutsu? Like not fitting his fighting style. DB stated that he was a perfectionist when it came to ninjutsu and developing it. Training and learning Senjutsu would of interfered and conflicted with that. Also are going to now accept that Jiraya and Orochimaru have more chakra then Tobirama since one can use senjutsu chakra and one can go SM.

(2.) I like Tobirama (Minato wished he had his swag), but Juubito tore the guy in half. If Tobirama were alive, the moment that he would have been pierced by Juubito is the moment that he would have been dead. Based on the position of the tags on Juubito's body, they appeared to have been thrown all at once (IMHO). Essentially just landing where they may. I do give Tobirama credit for placing his seal. It took quick hands to do that, as well as toss the tags. I will say that I think Tobirama has superior striking speed. I'll never believe that he has better reactions. Minato lost an arm to a superior Juubito. Tobirama lost half his body to an inferior Juubito. Yes, the version does make a difference.

How is your reasoning for reaction the same scenario to Tobirama? Minato fail to react to V2 Juuibto strike speed not blitzing.

 

[Icelerate]

To be fair, Minato seemed to be emotionally unstable during the fight against Juubito IIRC. That would hamper his fighting abilities quite a bit. Regardless he had the Kyuubi inside him and was mostly useful due to being able to connect chakra with others allowing to FTG multiple people.

 

[Penguin]

One must understand, prior to the Juubito blitz, no one knew Juubito's speed. All they have seen him do is break the Deity Gates. Now without any warning, Juubito blitzed both Hashirama and Tobirama [

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] -> [

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]. Reacting to this shunshin which far outclasses Madara's (SM Naruto barely reacted to), Ei, BM Naruto, etc. would be difficult, but faster than Juubito could even see, Tobirama marked him at least twice, but probably five times. He had to at least touch him once for the Hiraishin Fuuin and once more for the Fuda. This outclasses any reaction/striking feat Minato has done.

Also look at Minato's features when the Senju duo rouse their chakra. [

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] -> [

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].

But anyways, Tobirama wins this with the given restrictions. He is quicker, faster to react, a faster thinker, smarter, and has an element that is very diverse.

And Rikudobito was never mentioned to be faster than Juubito. I don't know who made that up.

 

[Bogard]

Minato did react to V2 Jubito(mindly react at least considering he could follow his hand movement). He just couldn't completely dodge in time.

Um, that's what I said. You said that entering Sage Mode depends on the accumulated physical/spiritual energy that is used to make chakra, and I said no, that's for Ninjutsu. Making Senjutsu takes your total Spiritual/Physical Energies, not the amount you choose to gather.

Yeah, meaning unless Minato takes in as much Nature Energy as he has Spiritual and Physical Energy, he can't enter Sage Mode. So he didn't just gather a tiny bit, unless you believe he only has a tiny bit of chakra.

I think you're confusing stamina with chakra. Chakra isn't always present in ninja bodies. What is present is stamina. How do you think taijutsu usable(incapable to build up chakra like Lee) do?

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It's by building part of your physical+spiritual energy that you build up the chakra necessary for battles

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So when someone build up his chakra, he isn't using his entire stamina+spiritual energy at all, only part of it. It's for that reason i said it depends on the quantity of physical(stamina)+spiritual energy that a ninja uses. If he takes only a small amount, in case of a SM user, only a small amount of natural energy is needed to build up the sennin chakra as well

PS: Brain V2 Jubito only removed one of Minato's arm. He mindly reacted to him. Only couldn't completely dodge. Considering you think Tobirama has so much better reactions than Minato, are you suggesting Tobirama moves faster than Brain V2 Jubito?

Because i'd like to point out the fact that when his clone actually made an appearance in the chapter "you're the main stars", despite being a hiraishin user couldn't escape the explosive radius of Jubito's gudodama in time after the second hiraishin(when it only requires an instant teleport) when on the other side Brain V2 Jubito had time to put up a shield to protect himself at the last second.

Not only that, but Tobirama didn't even notice Brain V2 Jubito actually managed to put up a defense until he saw him coming back despite the fact that when a clone is destroyed, the information come back to the original. That means Brain V2 Jubito put up a defense faster than Tobirama's clone(and thus the original) could even mindly see/react

It's funny how you people seriously want to argue concerning the difference between V1 mindless Jubito and V2 Brain Jubito when it has already been established that he lacked control. With less control, you can't use your powers as efficiently, not only that. Without a brain, you don't even see/care about your opponents counter-attacks. It's as if you think Kishi purposedly showed a new transformation just for the show.

But oh well. What can i say? I guess it's your opinion and i can't change that. I'd just finish with this though. Considering you believe V1 Jubito is no different than V2 Jubito and that Kishi just showed a drastical difference and new transformation for the show, are you suggesting that SM Madara has better reactions than V2 Jubito considering the same Tobirama couldn't tag him despite sneak attacking him?