Uzumaki Macho
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Swordsman are just as effective against Luffy as they are to everyone else(except Buggy)
[Discussion] Prime Rayleigh vs Dragon
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Joseph Gomes
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Swordsmen are luffy's biggest enemy, other people are irrelevant.
Luffy's fear against sword slash was shown during his encounter with Mihawk
Joseph Gomes
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~Naruto&Itachi~
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And how does that reflect to him being strong?!?!? he is the most wanted because he directly opposes the government....
Joseph Gomes
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Weak people don't get bounty over 300 million. After 300 million bounty doesn't increase unless you do something significant.
All character with 300 million bounty and above are very strong, for example: Caesar Clown
Luffy >= Zoro > Sanji
Sanji is weaker by a good amount
You for real?
Dragon is the most hyped character in the series except for maybe Roger and Garp.
The Marineford war stopped for a moment at the revelation that Luffy was Dragon's son. Akainu himself viewed Luffy as a threat for the same reason as Ace and that's because of their fathers. Dragon is the son of the man who matched the Pirate King in his prime and is the main characters father. Dragon is the leader of the force that is directly opposing the World Government. People in Marineford weren't surprised of Luffy's CoH due to his lineage to Dragon.
The hype is there you just have to...I don't know open your eyes and notice it.
Not really...I mean anyone who fights with their fists, feet or parts of their bodies is going to be vulnerable to swords it's not Luffy specifically. Perhaps you could say Luffy's carelessness is his weakness but not swords I mean just because someone has a sword it doesn't automatically give them the advantage over Luffy take his fights with Don Creig (I think that's the spelling) and Arlong they both used weapons yet Luffy was able to crush them.
Yeah but he's not going to directly oppose the world government unless he was strong is he now? Use some common sense man if Dragon wasn't as strong as his hype portrays the Revolutionary army would have been crushed by now.
Sorry I disagree...no evidence to prove that I'm afraid and in my opinion Sanji and Zoro will always be relatively in the same area of strength.
Luffy>Zoro>Sanji makes the most sense.
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Joseph Gomes
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Luffy was panicking when he realized what Mihawk could do to him in Marineford. Rubberman's biggest weakness is cutting attacks. Zoro is one of the strongest swordsman in OPverse now
And Zoro and Luffy have much more feats than Sanji. Sanji's flight is the only thing that puts him on per with Zoro and Luffy. Fujitora was surprised by Zoro's strength, while Doflamingo beat Sanji to a pulp. Zoro and Luffy are part of the supernova 11, Sanji is not
Yes Luffy was panicking but it wasn't just because he was against a sword user it was because he was carelessly acting against someone of Mihawks caliber that's why he immediately cancelled his attack after realized that sort of attack wouldn't work against someone like Mihawk who is faster, stronger but more experienced than Luffy. It all depends on the attack of course Luffy's bazooka attacks aren't going to be effective on a swordsman but that doesn't mean he's at a disadvantage due to one move.
Zoro in my opinion is just possibly reaching the top 10 strongest swordsman in the OP verse and that itself is considering we haven't seen every swordsman character.
Well I wouldn't say Zoro has more feats than Sanji...not really the only thing Zoro really has that up's Sanji is counter attacking an Admiral that went easy on him other than that Sanji has better feats since he's battled stronger opponents than Zoro has post time skip. I'm also fairly confident Zoro would get beaten to a pulp by Doflamingo as well like how Law, Luffy and Smoker did as well so that's hardly an argument.
I'm not debating if Sanji is stronger or even in strength with Zoro because I know Zoro is stronger I just don't think the gap in their strength is as big as your assuming I mean I think Sanji would push Zoro to a high if not extreme difficult fight. Also the whole Supernova argument isn't really something you can use to back up your argument in regards to strength levels I mean Bonney is a Supernova yet I doubt she's stronger than Sanji. The Supernova only have their title due to their bounty exceeding 100 million and remember bounty does not = strength.
Joseph Gomes
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I didn't say bounty= strength. But supernova 11 are part of the worst generation, they're the most notorious bunch of rookies in present time according to world government. Sanji hasn't been acknowledged so highly by anybody significant so far in the manga. Luffy trained under Rayleigh, Zoro trained under Mihawk. Sanji trained under the Okama. The timsekip didn't help Sanji as much as it did to Zoro and Luffy
Sanji will never be on the same level as Zoro and Luffy. Oda doesn't even take Sanji too seriously, Sanji passed out from nosebleed at Fishman Island.
Zoro directly said to the crew that if Luffy was as strong as he is right now (after luffy used conqueror's haki to take down 50 thousand rebels), Zoro would have to take over as the captain
Even in 1 of the fillers, Zoro beat Luffy XD. But yeah, Zoro and Luffy are similar in strength, they will always be.
Man...I can't believe I'm defending Sanji here...and Sanji has been acknowledged he was acknowledged by Dolfamingo.
You don't need acknowledgement to be strong...
Anyway just because Zoro trained with Mihawk doesn't mean it put Zoro on a completely new level it doesn't work like that we have no idea what his training was people can have little fantasies in their heads that Zoro was going 1 on 1 with Mihawk or whatever but the fact is we have no idea what Zoro did during the two years.
Sanji's training helped him become stronger at what he excels in 'kicking' Oda wouldn't have had Sanji running from Okama unless it was going to make him significantly stronger.
Ever since the start of the New World Sanji and Zoro have always been portrayed as close to each other in strength take the pacifista incident where Luffy took 1 out on his own while Sanji and Zoro took 1 out as well I don't think Oda did this without a reason I mean why didn't he have 2 pacifista's for Sanji and Zoro to take out. Instead he had 1 and then the 2 arguing who took out.
Obviously Oda does take Sanji seriously otherwise he wouldn't be fighting all of the strong fighters first Vergo, Doflamingo, Big Mam's crew etc... just because you don't like Sanji it doesn't mean his relevance to the story has disappeared and your nosebleed comment was just irrelevant it was a plot induced factor sort of like how Zoro always gets lost.
Zoro's comment to the crew showed us Luffy is still stronger than him as Zoro wouldn't follow someone weaker than him and yes the gap maybe small between Zoro and Luffy however the gap is significant to the point we can say Luffy is stronger than Zoro. Oda has built up this rivalry between Zoro and Sanji since they joined the crew and he's always portrayed them as similar in strength with Zoro just being able to edge him.
I'm assuming you mean the filler where Zoro lost his memory...okay despite this being a filler and completely baseless like every other filler I just want to point out a few things. This was before Gear 2nd and in the actual canon fight Zoro and Luffy had again this was before Gear 2nd Luffy and Zoro drew until Nami intervened and to me it seemed Luffy was able to handle a swordsman easily.
Joseph Gomes
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Remember when Zoro absorbed all of Luff's pain from Kuma? And didn't say a single word about it later? It shows how Oda sees Zoro. And Zoro getting lost is a running gag, while Sanji almost literally died from nosebleed. Sanji is seen along with Brook when they both try to peep at women. Sanji sees Zoro as his rival, whereas Zoro has his eyes on Luffy only. Proved when Zoro and Luffy confronted each other during Baroque Works arc. Sanji doesn't have that relationship with Luffy.
Sanji would've been on the level of Zoro and Luffy if he was more serious about his training. Oda knows Sanji's place that's why he kept Sanji at Okama island for 2 years. Zoro and Luffy are First Mate and Captain of Straw Hat crew, much like Rayleigh and Gol D Roger. Sanji isn't as important or relevant as you make him out to be. Zoro is far more loyal to luffy than Sanji.
Sanji lost his track long time back with his nosebleed gags, can you really take him as seriously as you did before Arabasta Arc? Personality affects your strength. The very reason why Usopp is still a fodder
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Durability doesn't make someone stronger. Sanji being attracted to woman and it being his weakness is also a running gag. No Zoro see's Sanji as a rival as well Oda showed us this when the two were arguing about who took out the pacifista otherwise Zoro wouldn't waste his time arguing with Sanji if that was the case. The Baroque works arc is completely irrelevant however I know the point you are trying to make but the same could be said when Sanji kicked Luffy when he was about to tell Usopp to leave.
Not really other than Zeff name one person we know kicks that could train Sanji and again I'm not denying Zoro is stronger than Sanji however the parallel may between Roger and Rayleigh may not work as other than Buggy and Shanks who else was in Roger's crew how do you know there wasn't a third strongest in Roger's crew and is just waiting to be introduced in the New World. Sanji is as relevant as Zoro is the only one in the Strawhat crew who has a significantly larger relevance is Luffy as he is the main character.
I do take Sanji as seriously. Sanji is the same as he was back then it makes his badass moments even more badass when he acts goofy same with Luffy with Zoro it's like meh...
Personality does affect your strength however trying to compare Sanji with Usopp was were your argument fell they are nothing alike.
SeriousDogg
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We don't know shit about Dragon, we can only guess he is around Yonkou level, maybe slightly weaker, maybe slightly stronger (most likely)
Prime Rayleigh should be a monster though.
Prime Rayleigh should be a monster though.
Joseph Gomes
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I'm not comparing Usopp to Sanji, I'm saying personality speaks a lot for the characters
jiraiya lives
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If, should, by hype, by portrayal, based on, scaling...That's the answer to this thread
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