100% Backed-up FACT about the misunderstanding of 'Hagoromo and the moon'

[KCMNaruto]

Thread not soloed as they used Chibaku Tensei, and not just a seal to make Hagoromo a Jin, only thing you're right with is the 'Hagoromo was the only Jin' part, I thought that also, but I reas the mangapanda version only, so I didn't know better (if that version is translated wrong).

@bold part, where it was stated ?

if you mean this page:

Spoiler

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, then it can be interpreted in two ways:

1. Hagoromo and Hamura used seal to turn Juubi into core for chibaku Tensei creating the Moon, which contradict statement of Obito of Hagoromo creating Moon on his death bed.

or

2. Hagoromo and Hamura used seal on Juubi, Then some time later Juubi was turned into core of chibaku tensei, which could mean Hagoromo creating moon on his deathbed.

Why there is second way to interpret manga scans ?, due to Black Zetsu calling Gedo Mazou Juubi as well. It means Black Zetsu could reffer to Gedo Mazou later being turned into Moon.

I will find and post scan for proof later

EDIT: How Hagoromo would make Chibaku Tensei then if one of his hand was occupied by placing seal on Kaguya ?

The seals didn't make Kaguya magically atract the everything to createsn Moon, they just rather freeze and tag her then Hagoromo using it Chibaku Tensei in Current time line used tags on her to turn her into core then procceding with creating moon by attracting anything...

 

[MadaraReturns]

@bold part, where it was stated ?

if you mean this page:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

, then it can be interpreted in two ways:

1. Hagoromo and Hamura used seal to turn Juubi into core for chibaku Tensei creating the Moon, which contradict statement of Obito of Hagoromo creating Moon on his death bed.

or

2. Hagoromo and Hamura used seal on Juubi, Then some time later Juubi was turned into core of chibaku tensei, which could mean Hagoromo creating moon on his deathbed.

Why there is second way to interpret manga scans ?, due to Black Zetsu calling Gedo Mazou Juubi as well.

I will find and post scan for proof later

Zetsu says that her mother was sealed by her two sons, as I already said to KidGamer: So you think that there is another seal that requires Yin and Yang seal? Let me ask this, what do you think they did in that panel? When they performed Chibaku Tensei Kaguya said 'Again', why was she sweating if she didn't know what Sasuke and Naruto were doing??

 

[KidGamer65]

So there is another seal that requires Yin and Yang seal? Let me ask this, what do you think they did in that panel? You are playing dumb, when they performed Chibaku Tensei Kaguya said 'Again', why was she sweating if she didn't know what Sasuke and Naruto were doing??

What I think they did is completely irrelevant to the debate, so I'm just going to ignore that question as the answer to it, no matter what it may be, doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. Manga has stated that Gedo Mazo was sealed into Hagoromo. Manga has stated that he made the moon. Manga stated that they sealed the Juubi into Hagoromo at that point.

-Are you contesting the fact that Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Juubi into him at that point? That is a relevant question, and it needs an answer.

There is no argument here. You are wrong and you need to accept it.

 

[KCMNaruto]

Zetsu says that her mother was sealed by her two sons, as I already said to KidGamer: So you think that there is another seal that requires Yin and Yang seal? Let me ask this, what do you think they did in that panel? When they performed Chibaku Tensei Kaguya said 'Again', why was she sweating if she didn't know what Sasuke and Naruto were doing??

Simple the"Again" statement could be reffered to just her sons restricting her movement by placing seals on her. I don't say you are wrong as it make sense, however it would contradcit previous statement.

While other explanation I suggested could be consistent with manga, but would make Black Zetsu's words a little useless.

Also @ bold part, they didn't perform Chibaku Tensei, Hagoromo did it. They only restricted her and tagged her for Hagoromo to somehow turn her in attracting core so he executed Chibaku tensei creating moon with her as core.

Now, my turn answer me these questions:

How would Hagoromo make Chibaku Tensei then if one of his hand was occupied by placing seal on Kaguya just like Hamura IN PAST ?

My way of interpretating:
The seals didn't make Kaguya magically attract everything to create Moon, they just rather freeze and tag her then Hagoromo performed Chibaku Tensei in Current time line using tags placed on her to turn her into core then procceding with creation of the moon. WHILE IN THE PAST HAGOROMO AND HAMURA PERFORMED OTHER KIND OF SEAL sealing Juubi in Hagoromo due to having RG to cancel IT.

Both Madara and Obito sealed Juubi in themselves without need to Chibaku Tensei(Besides how it would work), so why not Hagoromo and Hamura ?

 

[MadaraReturns]

What I think they did is completely irrelevant to the debate, so I'm just going to ignore that question as the answer to it, no matter what it may be, doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. Manga has stated that Gedo Mazo was sealed into Hagoromo. Manga has stated that he made the moon. Manga stated that they sealed the Juubi into Hagoromo at that point.

-Are you contesting the fact that Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Juubi into him at that point? That is a relevant question, and it needs an answer.

There is no argument here. You are wrong and you need to accept it.

I aleeady said that I may be wrong about Hamura being a Jin, I'm not wrong about the sealing stuff, my question ís relevant, because if they used Chibaku Tensei to seal her, and they did, I am right.

 

[KidGamer65]

I aleeady said that I may be wrong about Hamura being a Jin, I'm not wrong about the sealing stuff, my question ís relevant, because if they used Chibaku Tensei to seal her, and they did, I am right.

Hagoromo said that they sealed the Juubi into him. Thus that is what they did. Anything else is fanfiction. So you're wrong.

 

[MadaraReturns]

Hagoromo said that they sealed the Juubi into him. Thus that is what they did. Anything else is fanfiction. So you're wrong.

Man, I mean that I am not wrong that THEY used CHIBAKU TENSEI.. I didn't mean that I'm not wrong about them both becoming Jins

 

[KidGamer65]

Man, I mean that I am not wrong that THEY used CHIBAKU TENSEI.. I didn't mean that I'm not wrong about them both becoming Jins

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If they sealed the Juubi in CT, then they couldn't have sealed it inside Hagoromo. Its either or, not both at once. So by saying that they used CT to seal her at that point, you are saying that they didn't seal her inside Hagoromo, meaning you are wrong. Again.

 

[MadaraReturns]

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If they sealed the Juubi in CT, then they couldn't have sealed it inside Hagoromo. Its either or, not both at once. So by saying that they used CT to seal her at that point, you are saying that they didn't seal her inside Hagoromo, meaning you are wrong. Again.

bro, wtf.. picture below shows that it CAN.

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[KCMNaruto]

Man, I mean that I am not wrong that THEY used CHIBAKU TENSEI.. I didn't mean that I'm not wrong about them both becoming Jins

@KidGamer65: Basically his point was at that point Chibaku Tensei was used, so Gedo Mazou was sealed at that moment, contradicting just Obito's statement, Madara mentioned it ?, I don't remember

This would only contradict Hagoromo creating Moon on death-bed. Which was not stated neither by Kurama or Hagoromo himself, so it is debetable. He is my favourite so I would rather defend him and keep all his great feats true, but well Kishi's retconn maybe ?

Hagoromo would still becomes Host, but wait it would also contradict Yin Kurama statement. I mean how Yin Kurama would know you don't die with Gedo Mazou inside you... it would mean Hagoromo had Gedo mazou at one point. This could make Moon creation true, so there would be no point of Chibaku Tensei eariler, unless they sealed Shinjuu ? or maybe Rabbit demon.

Well I will stick to my first interpretation and consistent with manga. I will just say BZ's words are ambiguous and could be interpreted in more then one way, at least it isn't confusing.

Conclusion: OP, sorry but you must be wrong. It contradict not just Obito's statement of Creation of Moon which could be ok due to Black Zetsu rewrote parts of Hagoromo's original writing on stone tablet BUT it would also CONTRADICT YIN Kurama's statement about "Not dying with Gedo Mazou inside yourself based on seeing it worked with Sage".

I doubt Kishi would risk contradict not one but two manga facts. Yin Kurama has no reason to lie back then, besides he would watching all this happening... the only explanation is Yin Kurama is stupid or was possesed... but it makes even less sense

 

[KidGamer65]

bro, wtf.. picture below shows that it CAN.

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Then that'd mean the Gedo Mazo was sealed away while Hagoromo got the Bijuu Chakra. Which I already explained was impossible since its already a manga fact that Hagoromo had the Gedo Mazo inside him, thus it wasn't in the moon thus CT wasn't used.

 

[MadaraReturns]

@KidGamer65: Basically his point was at that point Chibaku Tensei was used, so Gedo Mazou was sealed at that moment, contradicting just Obito's statement, Madara mentioned it ?, I don't remember

This would only contradict Hagoromo creating Moon on death-bed. Which was not stated neither by Kurama or Hagoromo himself, so it is debetable. He is my favourite so I would rather defend him and keep all his great feats true, but well Kishi's retconn maybe ?

Hagoromo would still becomes Host, but wait it would also contradict Yin Kurama statement. I mean how Yin Kurama would know you don't die with Gedo Mazou inside you... it would mean Hagoromo had Gedo mazou at one point. This could make Moon creation true, so there would be no point of Chibaku Tensei eariler, unless they sealed Shinjuu ? or maybe Rabbit goddes.

Well I will stick to my first interpretation and consistent with manga even if BZ's words are ambiguous, at least it isn't confusing.

My point is that Kishi may have created a mistake in the story.. I know that Kurama's story is logical, but still.. Chibaku Tensei too.

 

[MadaraReturns]

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Then that'd mean the Gedo Mazo was sealed away while Hagoromo got the Bijuu Chakra. Which I already explained was impossible since its already a manga fact that Hagoromo had the Gedo Mazo inside him, thus it wasn't in the moon thus CT wasn't used.

Man you're making me want to fap.. and not because you're making me horny. Then Kishimoto may have made a big mistake.

 

[KidGamer65]

Man you're making me want to fap.. and not because you're making me horney. THEN KISHIMOTO MAY HAVE MADE A BIG MISTAKE.

And this is the problem. You are trying to invent some kind of plot hole, even though there isn't one. Hagoromo and Hamura simply DIDN'T USE CHIBAKU TENSEI AT THAT POINT. Nothing explicitly states they did, only your interpretation does, meaning there is room for your interpretation to be incorrect, which it is.

 

[KCMNaruto]

And this is the problem. You are trying to invent some kind of plot hole, even though there isn't one. Hagoromo and Hamura simply DIDN'T USE CHIBAKU TENSEI AT THAT POINT. Nothing explicitly states they did, only your interpretation does, meaning there is room for your interpretation to be incorrect, which it is.

^^ Exactly what i think.

 

[Ansatsuken]

MadaraReturns you maybe to naive to understand this manga.

you are like someone that need a holding stick to hold you up and if I translated to this thread it is about the scan that very pitiful you brought to support your debate and you never think out of the box because of afraid to lose the debate.

and people like this will not found success forever if they just relaid from support, but if theee suport is not enough or strong, they will colapesed or getting future problem later on.

what scan that you repeatedly show is when all the bijuu have been created by hago in the first place from the past event. If you said that hago sealed the bijuus inside him without any given form or you said hago sealed juubi chakra without mazo because mazo is trapped in the moon, how that contradicted your belive or fact about this manga that juubi can't manifasted without mazo first.

Ok let think about the biggining process how mazo and bijuus is created. If you think wiselý to the socalled scan that you glorified, how juubi is turning to its core first if hago never know how it core look like. That mean there are research that hago done first to know the mechanisme of juubi body. And after he found the secret about juubi body wheres he done a next thing that is creating the technique to saperated it chakra from the core

that is where hago using that unknown tech to saperated the juubi chakra and it core and turn it to bijuu.

and how he done the research, by sealing inside his body and not from the moon.

ok we going to sealing tech. If you look carefully and think wisely and out of the box.
you can speculate that base moon and sun seal just working to locking and paralysing kaguya or juubi power. That what occur first in the past between hagò and hamura.

And then they seal under power juubi inside hago. And from that hago learning about juubi.

But for the point is those sealed is not completed as today which naruto and sasuke utilize. But after he done the reserch, it time to let sealed juubi for good by saperated it chakra and it core by another unknown tech he created.

Next by using ct tech seal he created from rinnegan he sealed the core after saperating it chkra to bijuus.

And finally he completed the moon and sun seal with all that tech hago created in one package

and that seal is what naruto and sasuke using which combining locking power tech, chakra saperation tech and finally ct seal tech

Yes kishi never state it but if you not biased and try to create and connect the puzzles, then you will get it

 

[Rabbit Teth]

There's a lot of dispute over which translation to use for that panel in 670. Viz might be the official translator but they've been wrong before. In Japanese it can be translated as either "in me" or "in us". I think the ambiguity allows for theories that Hamura received some of the Juubi's chakra. I doubt the English translation is ever going to reveal more than the original Japanese was intended to convey. One Japanese speaker described it like so:

Spoiler

courtesy of aegon-rokudo

riku: the people called my mother the rabbit goodness or demon\\ they worshipped and feared her\\
riku: after a while kaguya gave birth to two sons\\
riku: and I am one of them\\
riku: we brothers fought the personification of the divine tree the juubi…\\
riku: in order to make up for the sins that our mother left behind… and sealed it within myself*\\
TLN: this is not really clear. He uses the word “onore” that means oneself, myself, yourself, ourselves etc. As Japanese doesn’t have differences in gender or numbers it is impossible to understand if the other brother had parts of the juubi sealed inside of him\\
Riku: the divine tree went berserk because it wanted to get back the chakra fruit that was taken from it\\

I've seen Japanese speakers argue it both ways. Personally I think it makes more sense that some Juubi chakra ended up with Hamura because 9 bijuu came out of Hagoromo and yet when Kaguya was just sealed 10 Bijuu came out (the tenth being the mysterious rabbit one)…which to me suggests that the tenth is what ended up with Hamura. I don't think it's settled yet. I figure we'll have to wait and see what happened to Hamura to know for sure.

 

[XY iNVeRSe]

I've made two threads on this.

Neither. Was a jin, In fact Hagoromo was a pseudo Jin, thus why only the gedo mazo was sealed.

And to add on, the gedo mazo is the juubi without all its chakra, the chakra Hagoromo sealed in himself.

Then later on in his life, Hagoromo used COAT to create the bijuu from that chakra.

But then there's the comment Kurama made about Hagoromo being immobilized because of having the gedo mazo.

But Kurama was created after the fact so..

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[MadaraReturns]

I've made two threads on this.

Neither. Was a jin, In fact Hagoromo was a pseudo Jin, thus why only the gedo mazo was sealed.

And to add on, the gedo mazo is the juubi without all its chakra, the chakra Hagoromo sealed in himself.

thats what i was trying to say

 

[XY iNVeRSe]

thats what i was trying to say

Most people seem to ignore that.

The bijuu are literally the juubi's chakra just separated.