[Discussion] Jozu and Ace vs. Doflamingo and Vergo

[blood hound]

Ace does not have Haki. In Paradise he didn't learn it since he was a Logia and no one would hit him. In the New World he was a WB Pirate and if someone attacked him then they would have to face the WB Pirates. He never needed to learn it. As seen with Red Hawk, CoA provides resistance to fire.

That's exactly what I just said, why are you arguing over it with me?

1) Ace has Haki.... It was considered to be powerful Haki as well. Then again, at such an early stage of the manga/anime it just normal that it wasn't shown or expanded on. Thus again one can not compare one of old and one with new.

2) I guess Im in the fighting mood XD

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

There are actually two answers to number one.

1A. The same reasons human beings don't get melted when struck by lightning IRL. Lightning strikes so quickly, it doesn't last enough to melt human beings, but the heat is still felt. This basically means lightning bolts created by the Goro Goro no Mi can hurt Akainu, but not vaporize him.

1B. The Gomu Gomu no Mi offers complete immunity to the Goro Goro no Mi and it's properties when the two interact directly. What this means is, the consumer of the Gomu Gomu no Mi is COMPLETELY immune to the Goro Goro no Mi's effects when the lightning touches the Gomu consumer's body directly, including the heat. This, however, can be circumvented by using a medium. Heat, being a form of energy, is never lost or created, but transferred, so if the Goro Goro no Mi heats up something, such as Enel's golden staff, then the Gomu consumer can be affected by it because the heat of the Goro Goro no Mi was transferred into the gold, making it the gold's heat now, which Luffy isn't immune to.

2. That makes sense.

3. The Hie Hie no Mi can reach below zero temperatures in an instant. Add into the sheer volume of ice that can be created, the ice would snuff out the fire by dropping to temperature too low for ice to be sustained. It doesn't need to freeze the fire.

1A. One of Enel's attacks put Luffy in lightning for a few seconds, which is enough time for Luffy to get seriously burned or even melted.
1B. No Luffy is just immune to electricity, not just the Goro Goro no Mi. As seen when Dragon sent down a lightning bolt to save Luffy from Buggy. Luffy only has immunity to the electricity from the lightning, and not the heat from the lightning.

1) Ace has Haki.... It was considered to be powerful Haki as well. Then again, at such an early stage of the manga/anime it just normal that it wasn't shown or expanded on. Thus again one can not compare one of old and one with new.

2) I guess Im in the fighting mood XD

1.Whaaaat??? No one in the manga ever even implied that Ace had Haki. He never learnt it because he rode on being a Logia and a WB Pirate.

 

[Punk Hazard]

your whole argument tends to falter.... People/fans can not compare one character from an early part of the manga/anime to that of the new. For example, your implying that Ace and Jouz wouldn't have Haki, or rather a Low Powered Haki due to us not seeing them preform Haki at the time when they were shown..... Truth is however, everyone at that time didn't poses Haki and only a hand full did. It was mentioned a fee times before time skip but never really implemented into the show till after the time skip.

In saying so one must regard that ace and Jouz who are powerful high tier pirates should hold/have Haki. Thus meaning both would have haki powerful/strong enough to aid them in fighting Vergo and flamingo, to which would be a 50% chance for both teams wining. You are also forgotten that Vergo had a struggle with Smoker, and unlike smoke, FIRE!!! Burns once in contact!!!!

Ace has had ample times to use Busoshoku Haki but hasn't. I really dislike having to do this whole argument again, but I'll put it in a spoiler tag.

1. The argument that Oda didn't have an idea of Haki pre-skip and didn't show it much or whatever is a terrible argument. We saw Haki in the first chapter, and had clear explanations of Haki pre-skip with Rayleight. Pre-timeskip, we saw:
1. Akainu
2. Kuzan
3. Kizaru
4. Garp
5. Marco
6. Vista
7. Several Kuja warriors
8. Jozu
9. Shanks
10. Sentomaru
12. Rayleigh
13. Whitebeard
14. Coby
15. Enel
16. Aisa

all use Haki, with the first thirteen examples using Busoshoku. And yet, Oda is going to have a problem with Ace using it? Ace has had no qualms about taking out Marines and enemies. At Marineford, he ruthlessly plowed through them. At Alabasta, he destroyed an entire fleet of ships without any regard for who is on board. But yet, he's gonna let himself stalemate against Smoker? Teach mentioned he was a Logia and Ace still attacked him without Busoshoku Haki. Ace isn't stupid, hot-headed as he is and he intended to murder Teach, so why would he not use Busoshoku if he had it before he knew Teach's body could take damage without Busoshoku? You could say plot purposes(Smoker had to live for later) and exposition(to show that Teach's powers don't grant him intangibility like the rest), but I could counter with Oda accomplished these plot purposes and exposition by not giving Ace Busoshoku.

Some say that Ace living in the New World means he had to have Busoshoku, as no Logia in the New World can survive without it, and being a commander, he would have to have had it. This can be countered in three ways:

1. Monet and Caesar. They are Logias who lived in the New World for decades, and have shown no signs of Haki.

2. Ace had the WB pirates backing him up. No one besides Teach and Marines bothered to attack Ace because he had a Yonko and his entire crew in his corner, and no one wants to face the wrath of the Whitebeard Pirates really. The mere idea of having to fight WB was enough to make Buggy say no to harming Ace. It was basically that all the time more or less.

3. The Whitebeard pirates fight as a unit. As shown in Marineford, they have good teamwork. It is reasonable to assume that Ace, having a fearsome and powerful fruit, didn't need Haki because his basic combat ability and his fruit's power were immense. Being that Logias are rare, he wouldn't necessarily need Haki that much, especially since his fruit gives him powerful offensive powers already. If the crew encountered a Logia, Ace probably simply let a Haki user like Marco or Vista handle them, and he took on someone he didn't need Haki for.

Vergo didn't struggle with Smoker, Vergo put down Smoker at low-mid diff. Vergo's Haki can protect him from Ace's flames. Jozu has Haki yes, but what good will that do him when Doflamingo renders him unable to move?

 

[Punk Hazard]

1A. One of Enel's attacks put Luffy in lightning for a few seconds, which is enough time for Luffy to get seriously burned or even melted.
1B. No Luffy is just immune to electricity, not just the Goro Goro no Mi. As seen when Dragon sent down a lightning bolt to save Luffy from Buggy. Luffy only has immunity to the electricity from the lightning, and not the heat from the lightning.

1.Whaaaat??? No one in the manga ever even implied that Ace had Haki. He never learnt it because he rode on being a Logia and a WB Pirate.

Like I said, Luffy is completely immune to all effects of the Goro Goro no Mi through direct interactions. That's just the way the Devil Fruits work. The heat of lightning is caused by the energy lightning carries, and the energy lightning is composed of is electricity. The heat is a byproduct of the electricity found in lightning, since Luffy is immune to electricity, he's immune to its heat as well. Luffy just doesn't feel lightning at all through direct interaction because that's how Oda made the Devil Fruits work.

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[blood hound]

Ace has had ample times to use Busoshoku Haki but hasn't. I really dislike having to do this whole argument again, but I'll put it in a spoiler tag.

1. The argument that Oda didn't have an idea of Haki pre-skip and didn't show it much or whatever is a terrible argument. We saw Haki in the first chapter, and had clear explanations of Haki pre-skip with Rayleight. Pre-timeskip, we saw:
1. Akainu
2. Kuzan
3. Kizaru
4. Garp
5. Marco
6. Vista
7. Several Kuja warriors
8. Jozu
9. Shanks
10. Sentomaru
12. Rayleigh
13. Whitebeard
14. Coby
15. Enel
16. Aisa

all use Haki, with the first thirteen examples using Busoshoku. And yet, Oda is going to have a problem with Ace using it? Ace has had no qualms about taking out Marines and enemies. At Marineford, he ruthlessly plowed through them. At Alabasta, he destroyed an entire fleet of ships without any regard for who is on board. But yet, he's gonna let himself stalemate against Smoker? Teach mentioned he was a Logia and Ace still attacked him without Busoshoku Haki. Ace isn't stupid, hot-headed as he is and he intended to murder Teach, so why would he not use Busoshoku if he had it before he knew Teach's body could take damage without Busoshoku? You could say plot purposes(Smoker had to live for later) and exposition(to show that Teach's powers don't grant him intangibility like the rest), but I could counter with Oda accomplished these plot purposes and exposition by not giving Ace Busoshoku.

Some say that Ace living in the New World means he had to have Busoshoku, as no Logia in the New World can survive without it, and being a commander, he would have to have had it. This can be countered in three ways:

1. Monet and Caesar. They are Logias who lived in the New World for decades, and have shown no signs of Haki.

2. Ace had the WB pirates backing him up. No one besides Teach and Marines bothered to attack Ace because he had a Yonko and his entire crew in his corner, and no one wants to face the wrath of the Whitebeard Pirates really. The mere idea of having to fight WB was enough to make Buggy say no to harming Ace. It was basically that all the time more or less.

3. The Whitebeard pirates fight as a unit. As shown in Marineford, they have good teamwork. It is reasonable to assume that Ace, having a fearsome and powerful fruit, didn't need Haki because his basic combat ability and his fruit's power were immense. Being that Logias are rare, he wouldn't necessarily need Haki that much, especially since his fruit gives him powerful offensive powers already. If the crew encountered a Logia, Ace probably simply let a Haki user like Marco or Vista handle them, and he took on someone he didn't need Haki for.

Vergo didn't struggle with Smoker, Vergo put down Smoker at low-mid diff. Vergo's Haki can protect him from Ace's flames. Jozu has Haki yes, but what good will that do him when Doflamingo renders him unable to move?

Everyone before the timeskip rarely/barely showed any Form of Haki and it is completely foolish to compare that of old to that of new. Let me as you a question, did flamingo use Haki at any point before time skip....Nope!!! Did white beard the stronger piirate show any form of Haki...... Barely!!! Even shanks...... Barely. Haki was not something to be used by everyone and especially in large quantity, however now it's that of norm.
Thus again if ace had lived till after time skip, he would have... Without a doubt learnt and gained Haki!

 

[blood hound]

1A. One of Enel's attacks put Luffy in lightning for a few seconds, which is enough time for Luffy to get seriously burned or even melted.
1B. No Luffy is just immune to electricity, not just the Goro Goro no Mi. As seen when Dragon sent down a lightning bolt to save Luffy from Buggy. Luffy only has immunity to the electricity from the lightning, and not the heat from the lightning.

1.Whaaaat??? No one in the manga ever even implied that Ace had Haki. He never learnt it because he rode on being a Logia and a WB Pirate.

It was implied that he had conquer Haki an I know he didn't show or learn it, but thats before timeskip!!!!!!

 

[Punk Hazard]

Everyone before the timeskip rarely/barely showed any Form of Haki and it is completely foolish to compare that of old to that of new. Let me as you a question, did flamingo use Haki at any point before time skip....Nope!!! Did white beard the stronger piirate show any form of Haki...... Barely!!! Even shanks...... Barely. Haki was not something to be used by everyone and especially in large quantity, however now it's that of norm.
Thus again if ace had lived till after time skip, he would have... Without a doubt learnt and gained Haki!

1. Doesn't matter. We saw enough people use Busoshoku Haki to show that Oda had no problem with showing it pre-skip. People barely showed it, Ace didn't show it all.

2. No it's not. What's foolish is to give people abilities they've never shown to posses.

3. Unlike Ace, Doflamingo was never in a situation preskip where he needed Haki. The only time he came close was when he cut off Crocodile's head, and he only did that to get the Logia's attention, so it would have made no sense for Doflamingo to lace the string with Haki then. If Ace lived, sure he could have learned Haki, if he was portrayed post-skip, sure he could have been been shown using Haki. But the fact remains he hasn't. Ace has never shown Busoshoku Haki, so until something or someone explicitly confirms Ace had Busoshoku in a canonical format, the only foolish person is you for trying to use Ace having Haki in a discussion when he hasn't shown the ability to do so. Sorry, but I like to use facts, not fanfiction.

It was implied that he had conquer Haki an I know he didn't show or learn it, but thats before timeskip!!!!!!

Doesn't matter, there's no such thing as post-skip Ace.

 

[blood hound]

1. Doesn't matter. We saw enough people use Busoshoku Haki to show that Oda had no problem with showing it pre-skip. People barely showed it, Ace didn't show it all.

2. No it's not. What's foolish is to give people abilities they've never shown to posses.

3. Unlike Ace, Doflamingo was never in a situation preskip where he needed Haki. The only time he came close was when he cut off Crocodile's head, and he only did that to get the Logia's attention, so it would have made no sense for Doflamingo to lace the string with Haki then. If Ace lived, sure he could have learned Haki, if he was portrayed post-skip, sure he could have been been shown using Haki. But the fact remains he hasn't. Ace has never shown Busoshoku Haki, so until something or someone explicitly confirms Ace had Busoshoku in a canonical format, the only foolish person is you for trying to use Ace having Haki in a discussion when he hasn't shown the ability to do so. Sorry, but I like to use facts, not fanfiction.

1) The fact that you stated it yourself...... If he lived he would have had learnt Haki proves my point. Again for the 100 time one can not compare one of old to that of new. Unless your going to give somewhat an equal grounding.

2) Did Marco show any use of haki... Nope, other then that one time he hit akuine

3) Smoker after timeskip learnt Haki, thus in theory which tends to produce these facts you speak of it would mean that ace would have too

 

[Punk Hazard]

1) The fact that you stated it yourself...... If he lived he would have had learnt Haki proves my point. Again for the 100 time one can not compare one of old to that of new. Unless your going to give somewhat an equal grounding.

2) Did Marco show any use of haki... Nope, other then that one time he hit akuin

3) Smoker after timeskip learnt Haki, this in theory which tends to produce these facts you speak of it would mean that ace would has to

1. Yeah, if he lived, he could have learend Haki. But he didn't live. I could just as easily say "If Buggy can find a portal to our dimension, steal our nukes and come back, he could solo the OPverse." Would you take that argument seriously?It doesn't matter what Ace could have done, what matters is what he's shown to be able to do, Busoshoku Haki isn't one of them. You can compare old to new. That's how hypothetical debates work. There is no "new" Ace, we can only work with what we've got. If you wanna talk about how post-skip Ace has Haki, then go to the fanfiction section.

2.....Not even gonna glorify this with a response.

3. So what? There is no Ace after time-skip, what don't you understand about this? It is fully acceptable to compare Ace as he was pre-skip to post-skip characters, there's nothing wrong with that. You don't have to give Ace Haki just because Smoker learned it, that literally makes zero sense. I'm done debating this with you.

 

[blood hound]

The argument that I am making makes complete and total sense.

Why are we talking about Timeskip flamingo and not before timeskip flamingo?
Why do we give flamingo Haki and not ace?
How do we know if Jouz has Haki or not?
How powerful is his Haki?

In theory, which produces facts!! Ace would have Haki if he lived to see time after the timeskip. It is completely foolish to think other wise. It is completely foolish to try and compare that of old to that of new, because no matter how you shift an turn the new would always beat the old. Why because things are always added and detailed and implemented to grow the "seed".it's the same with all ideas be it manga/anime or anything of that compound.

The Creator of this thread Did not state in his first quote that Ace does not have Haki, or that we are not talking about ace after timeskip. Thus I can with out any problems say and state that the Ace that I have chosen to speak of is in fact that of after timeskip. Water is liquid, under fire it would turn to Gas.... That's a theory that can/has been considered a fact.

 

[blood hound]

Also genius this is all fAnfiction..... It all a bunch of ideas that have been generated to benefit the creative minds such as us.... Thus we can with out a doubt change things to our liking......... Plus your whole "Fact" theory is kind of contradicting itself when your own manga/anime doesn't revolve around the Facts such as lighting melting rubber. And the very ideas of devil fruit are presented, with powers such as paramic, zoan and logia

 

[U mAd]

obviously team 2

 

[Punk Hazard]

The argument that I am making makes complete and total sense.

Why are we talking about Timeskip flamingo and not before timeskip flamingo?
Why do we give flamingo Haki and not ace?
How do we know if Jouz has Haki or not?
How powerful is his Haki?

In theory, which produces facts!! Ace would have Haki if he lived to see time after the timeskip. It is completely foolish to think other wise. It is completely foolish to try and compare that of old to that of new, because no matter how you shift an turn the new would always beat the old. Why because things are always added and detailed and implemented to grow the "seed".it's the same with all ideas be it manga/anime or anything of that compound.

The Creator of this thread Did not state in his first quote that Ace does not have Haki, or that we are not talking about ace after timeskip. Thus I can with out any problems say and state that the Ace that I have chosen to speak of is in fact that of after timeskip. Water is liquid, under fire it would turn to Gas.... That's a theory that can/has been considered a fact.

Also genius this is all fAnfiction..... It all a bunch of ideas that have been generated to benefit the creative minds such as us.... Thus we can with out a doubt change things to our liking......... Plus your whole "Fact" theory is kind of contradicting itself when your own manga/anime doesn't revolve around the Facts such as lighting melting rubber. And the very ideas of devil fruit are presented, with powers such as paramic, zoan and logia

We can pit characters against each other at any stage they have existed in. Ace has only existed in his pre-skip phase where he died, and as a child. We cannot use a post-skip Ace because there is no such thing as a post-skip Ace. This is a hypothetical match-up. I know you're new here, but here's how it works. You can put characters against each other in hypotheticals , but that does not allow you to give them abilities they do not possess. If Doflamingo having Haki puts him at an advantage against Ace, you don't give Ace Haki to even it out, that defeats the purpose of having the debate in the first place.

We can give Doflamingo and Jozu Busoshoku Haki because both men have been shown using it on multiple occasions. Jozu showed Busoshoku Haki when he hit the Logias Crocodile and Aokiji and made them bleed. We cannot do so for Ace because has never shown Busoshoku Haki. You can say "If he lived, he could have learned it" and while that's true, it's not good enough, it doesn't count in this debate. That's just not how debates work. If the "new" always beats the "old", the sucks to the old. That's just too bad for Ace. You cannot give a character an ability they never had in a debate. Period. The OP never said Ace has Haki in this match-up either.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if you're like 12 or something, because this is not a difficult concept to understand.

 

[I'm stupid real stupid]

Doflamingo negs Ace+Jozu

 

[Bogard]

Jozu solos. His diamond enhanced superior haki to everyone here(Doflamingo or Vergo's haki are shit compared to his own) would wreck them. Add Ace and it's not even a match

 

[Uzumaki Macho]

The argument that I am making makes complete and total sense.

Why are we talking about Timeskip flamingo and not before timeskip flamingo?
Why do we give flamingo Haki and not ace?
How do we know if Jouz has Haki or not?
How powerful is his Haki?

In theory, which produces facts!! Ace would have Haki if he lived to see time after the timeskip. It is completely foolish to think other wise. It is completely foolish to try and compare that of old to that of new, because no matter how you shift an turn the new would always beat the old. Why because things are always added and detailed and implemented to grow the "seed".it's the same with all ideas be it manga/anime or anything of that compound.

The Creator of this thread Did not state in his first quote that Ace does not have Haki, or that we are not talking about ace after timeskip. Thus I can with out any problems say and state that the Ace that I have chosen to speak of is in fact that of after timeskip. Water is liquid, under fire it would turn to Gas.... That's a theory that can/has been considered a fact.

Stopped right there.

Jozu solos. His diamond enhanced superior haki to everyone here(Doflamingo or Vergo's haki are shit compared to his own) would wreck them. Add Ace and it's not even a match

Then how did Doffy subdue him at MF and whats stopping him from doing it again?

 

[Bogard]

Then how did Doffy subdue him at MF and whats stopping him from doing it again?

He wasn't subdued. He only stopped his movement for a second and eventhen, even Crocodile could cut Akainu in half in a sneak attack. Only cowards -incapable to face stronger people in 1 on 1- like Doflamingo do things like that. But himself knew he could do nothing on Jozu. It's for that reason he opted to ally himself with Crocodile. Now that they are facing each other, Jozu will demolish him

 

[Punk Hazard]

He wasn't subdued. He only stopped his movement for a second and eventhen, even Crocodile could cut Akainu in half in a sneak attack. Only cowards -incapable to face stronger people in 1 on 1- like Doflamingo do things like that. But himself knew he could do nothing on Jozu. It's for that reason he opted to ally himself with Crocodile. Now that they are facing each other, Jozu will demolish him

Uhh no. Jozu was well aware of Doflamingo's presence. Doflamingo was behind Crocodile at the time and was able to leap ahead of Crocodile and stop Jozu before he got to the spot Crocodile was standing on. Even if Jozu was charging directly at Doflamingo, this shows that Doflamingo has the reaction time and speed to stop Jozu as he charges. Not only that, but we have no idea how strong exactly Jozu's Haki truly is. Even Crocodile was able to take that blow, his jaw wasn't even broken, and that Crocodile not using Haki(not saying he has it). Doflamingo and Vergo using Koka can withstand Jozu's blows and Doflamingo stopped him before.

You also have no idea what Doflamingo meant by teaming up with Crocodile. Being that Doflamingo was standing directly in the middle of the battlefield and left the war unscathed, it shows he didn't need Crocodile for anything at Marineford. You have to take into account that Doflamingo works in the criminal underworld and Crocodile was outed to have owned a criminal organization right under the Government's nose. For all we know, Doffy was referring to them teaming up pertains to his works as Joker.

 

[Gintõki1]

Team 2 .

 

[Bogard]

Uhh no. Jozu was well aware of Doflamingo's presence. Doflamingo was behind Crocodile at the time and was able to leap ahead of Crocodile and stop Jozu before he got to the spot Crocodile was standing on. Even if Jozu was charging directly at Doflamingo, this shows that Doflamingo has the reaction time and speed to stop Jozu as he charges. Not only that, but we have no idea how strong exactly Jozu's Haki truly is. Even Crocodile was able to take that blow, his jaw wasn't even broken, and that Crocodile not using Haki(not saying he has it). Doflamingo and Vergo using Koka can withstand Jozu's blows and Doflamingo stopped him before.

You also have no idea what Doflamingo meant by teaming up with Crocodile. Being that Doflamingo was standing directly in the middle of the battlefield and left the war unscathed, it shows he didn't need Crocodile for anything at Marineford. You have to take into account that Doflamingo works in the criminal underworld and Crocodile was outed to have owned a criminal organization right under the Government's nose. For all we know, Doffy was referring to them teaming up pertains to his works as Joker.

Doflamingo was next to Crocodile yes, but Jozu wasn't paying attention to him at all, so it's the same thing. Doflamingo cowardly put him in parasite when his attention wasn't on him, which makes it a sneak attack. And it's not like Doflamingo was significant threat for him. He knew he could kill them both anytime he wants.

Either way, this thread will become ridiculous when we'll get off of Dressrosa and realise Doflamingo isn't as strong as you people think. I suppose it's his arc at the moment, so he gets overhyped, but i won't even bother explaining in details why he is far weaker than Jozu. The manga will answer itself and you will feel like an idiot