[Discussion] Kenpachi, Kurotsuchi Mayuri and Byakuya vs Urahara, Isshin and Yoruichi

[Forbidden Tale]

Ok he was healed? Also he still was reaching his limits cuz the hogyoku started taking over like I said isshin won't doing no major damage to aizen he won't landing blow after blow aizen slowed down cuz the hogyoku was starting to take over..

Hogyoku was starting to take over because Aizen was weaker than Isshin. He was not strong enough to beat Isshin, so Hogyoku needed to jump in and give him strength.

Can't negate ks an isshin don't come close to doing something like that with his spiritual pressure...stop putting base isshin over base aizen it don't work like that.

Isshin just prove that he is stronger than Base Aizen.

No his ritual is what people thought his shikai really was..shatter is his release command...I've never seen someone use shikai an they gained a reiatsu boost but what ever.

Yes, shatter is realese command and the ritual it's needed to see by other people.
When he showed other people his 'water based zanpakuto' there were already under KS and in order to use KS he need to say "shatter".

Urahara can accomplish the feat of taking down those captains an vizards if he uses bankai an they don't thats the only way..if its just shikai urahara then no..

If you say so.

Naw I doubt shikai urahara is stronger than RR Byakuya in shikai..plus his bankai skills probaly increased sense the aizen fight to the start of the first invasion...an ulquiorra mission was to go check out ichigo not fight urahara an yourichi.

Biggest prodigy in Bleach verse, Hitsugaya didn't got much stronger during time skip. Byakuya needed 100 years to become level he was during Hueco Mundo, Gin at the same time become much stronger. I doubt that Byakuya's increase would be much by any long margin.

Tosen went bankai an failed miserably...like I said ur physical stats don't increase.

It was said that when Bankai disappear, user is going to die, Tosen didn't die after his bankai disapper, so that would mean that he is the one who actually deactivate it. Why? I do not know. Only reason I see is he going to help Aizen.

Gotta use match ups aswell that's why I say no one under the illusion of ks can really defeat aizen unless your Yama in bankai form.

This is also not true. Aizen also said that Ryujin Jakka alone could be able to beat him. That's Yama without his skills in kido and hakuda. Yama watched whole Aizen vs Captains fight, and he feelt Aizen's reitasu, when latter stabbed him and he didn't find that impressive at all. He actually was ready to take Aizen down even without using Zanpakuto. Which mean just his skills in Hakuda, Shunpo and Kido.

Bankai Yamamoto >>>>>>>>>>>>> Shikai Aizen
Shikai Yamamoto >>>>>> Shikai Aizen
Base Yamamoto >>> Shikai Aizen
Zanpakutoless Yamamoto > Shikai Aizen.

Just to say as well that we are not sure did they mean Aizen's strength while latter using shikai or bankai. So above you maybe could even replace "Shikai Aizen' with "Bankai Aizen".

No she clearly said no one on that bridge could beat Byakuya well on the good side that is..yea they had a little shunpo contest but that's nothing like having a real fight.

Ok. O.O

The only espada to lose to a non captain lever person was #9 the one rukia defeated.

I wasn't talking about non captain level fighters. I was talking about above captan level figters. Likes of Hitsugaya, Byakuya and Zommari sure aren't above captain level.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

Hogyoku was starting to take over because Aizen was weaker than Isshin. He was not strong enough to beat Isshin, so Hogyoku needed to jump in and give him strength.



Isshin just prove that he is stronger than Base Aizen.



Yes, shatter is realese command and the ritual it's needed to see by other people.
When he showed other people his 'water based zanpakuto' there were already under KS and in order to use KS he need to say "shatter".



If you say so.



Biggest prodigy in Bleach verse, Hitsugaya didn't got much stronger during time skip. Byakuya needed 100 years to become level he was during Hueco Mundo, Gin at the same time become much stronger. I doubt that Byakuya's increase would be much by any long margin.



It was said that when Bankai disappear, user is going to die, Tosen didn't die after his bankai disapper, so that would mean that he is the one who actually deactivate it. Why? I do not know. Only reason I see is he going to help Aizen.



This is also not true. Aizen also said that Ryujin Jakka alone could be able to beat him. That's Yama without his skills in kido and hakuda. Yama watched whole Aizen vs Captains fight, and he feelt Aizen's reitasu, when latter stabbed him and he didn't find that impressive at all. He actually was ready to take Aizen down even without using Zanpakuto. Which mean just his skills in Hakuda, Shunpo and Kido.

Bankai Yamamoto >>>>>>>>>>>>> Shikai Aizen
Shikai Yamamoto >>>>>> Shikai Aizen
Base Yamamoto >>> Shikai Aizen
Zanpakutoless Yamamoto > Shikai Aizen.

Just to say as well that we are not sure did they mean Aizen's strength while latter using shikai or bankai. So above you maybe could even replace "Shikai Aizen' with "Bankai Aizen".



Ok. O.O



I wasn't talking about non captain level fighters. I was talking about above captan level figters. Likes of Hitsugaya, Byakuya and Zommari sure aren't above captain level.

No if that was the case then he would have always looked tired before going threw a transformation which was not the case..he looked tired an worn down cuz the hogyoku was starting to take over he said this himself.

Wrong.

No unohana clearly stated the water base thing was the ritual..that's why unohana said ichigo had the best chance if it was just shatter then he could easily trap ichigo in it an unohana would have never said thoes words..hitsugiya did get much stronger during the time skip I believe he said so him self he said he trained till his bankai became a real bankai..an increase is a increase.

I believe Byakuya said when the bankai goes away it means ur near death not that you will die no matter what..an he most likely got healed not to long after his fight with zaraki...an no tosen got cut down.

Yea ryuujin jakka can also mean bankai aswell...an no he felt aizen reiatsu when he got stabbed an knew it was the real aizen cuz his sword was stuck in his gut there's a reason why he let aizen stab him it's cuz of ks..an Yama ready to take on aizen without his sword don't guarantee Yama the win..

Who's above captain level what does that mean.

 

[apple pie of doom]

Pre-Ts Urahara's team wins.

Post-Ts Mayuri's team.

Mayuri's inventions seem far more usefull for combat than Urahara's does.
Kenpachi likely takes Ishin as well.
Byakuya got about the boost Renji did, so he likely destroys Yoruichi now.

Urahara's team likely has more teamwork though, but despite even that, Mayuri's team got this one.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

No if that was the case then he would have always looked tired before going threw a transformation which was not the case..he looked tired an worn down cuz the hogyoku was starting to take over he said this himself.

Because the two are close in power. But during the fight the one was little stronger (Isshin) pushed the opponent who was weaker (Aizen).

Just how Sasuke and Naruto were quite equal in their VoTE fight, but the one who was little stronger (Sasuke) defeat Naruto in the end.

Wrong.

Ccccc, No.

No unohana clearly stated the water base thing was the ritual..that's why unohana said ichigo had the best chance if it was just shatter then he could easily trap ichigo in it an unohana would have never said thoes words..hitsugiya did get much stronger during the time skip I believe he said so him self he said he trained till his bankai became a real bankai..an increase is a increase.

She wasn't referring to water base thing, she was referring to release command. Otherwise, she would never be under KS' effect, since she never saw that water base ritual. Chapter 171, Aizen say:

Spoiler

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Yes, but there don't seems much difference in his strength. Byakuya is even mature man and not talented as Hitsugaya, so even if he trained, his increase should be lesser than Hitsugayas.

I believe Byakuya said when the bankai goes away it means ur near death not that you will die no matter what..an he most likely got healed not to long after his fight with zaraki...an no tosen got cut down.

Yes, near dead, but Tosen was never healed, at least it wasn't showed, his condition also don't seems like near dead.

Yea ryuujin jakka can also mean bankai aswell...an no he felt aizen reiatsu when he got stabbed an knew it was the real aizen cuz his sword was stuck in his gut there's a reason why he let aizen stab him it's cuz of ks..an Yama ready to take on aizen without his sword don't guarantee Yama the win..

No, Zanka no Tachi is bankai and Ryujjin Jaka is shikai.
Yes, he feelt his reiatsu and he didn't find that impressive at all. Don't guarante, but considering that he was able to use 90s level of kido on werge dead, destroyed WW with just Hakudu (and still probably didn't use full power in this category), I see him taking Aizen.

Who's above captain level what does that mean.

Kyoraku, Ukitake, Isshin, Aizen, Yoruichi, Ukitake, Shinji are captains that are high captain level or above captain level. Vasto Lordes alredy should be strong as them. But we saw them in Arrancar forms, where they are even stronger, loosing to captains that are much weaker than the captains I listed above.

 

[kotoamatsukami]

Because the two are close in power. But during the fight the one was little stronger (Isshin) pushed the opponent who was weaker (Aizen).

Just how Sasuke and Naruto were quite equal in their VoTE fight, but the one who was little stronger (Sasuke) defeat Naruto in the end.



Ccccc, No.



She wasn't referring to water base thing, she was referring to release command. Otherwise, she would never be under KS' effect, since she never saw that water base ritual. Chapter 171, Aizen say:

Spoiler

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Yes, but there don't seems much difference in his strength. Byakuya is even mature man and not talented as Hitsugaya, so even if he trained, his increase should be lesser than Hitsugayas.



Yes, near dead, but Tosen was never healed, at least it wasn't showed, his condition also don't seems like near dead.



No, Zanka no Tachi is bankai and Ryujjin Jaka is shikai.
Yes, he feelt his reiatsu and he didn't find that impressive at all. Don't guarante, but considering that he was able to use 90s level of kido on werge dead, destroyed WW with just Hakudu (and still probably didn't use full power in this category), I see him taking Aizen.



Kyoraku, Ukitake, Isshin, Aizen, Yoruichi, Ukitake, Shinji are captains that are high captain level or above captain level. Vasto Lordes alredy should be strong as them. But we saw them in Arrancar forms, where they are even stronger, loosing to captains that are much weaker than the captains I listed above.

Sasuke an naruto where actuall close in power an both gave all they had...isshin barely did anything an aizen was slumped over an tired that would not be the case if isshin fought aizen the moment aizen arrived there.

Yes.

No you have to see the water base thing first then just one glance at his sword puts you under ks illusion..if it was that easy as you say it is then unohana would have never stated that ichigo had a chance.

Yea hitsugiya is very talented.

Yes he was near death cuz zaraki was about to finish him off but komomaru saved his life.

Aizen said ryuujin jakka was the strongest zanpacto he means the zanpacto period wether it's shikai or bankai..Yama lost a great deal of power aizen was going to win after sometime most likely Yama don't have to be impressed inorder to lose..aizen won't make the mistake of stabbing him again an letting Yama grab hold of him.

Vasto lordes? If we talking 4 an up they were pretty strong an were close to the high captain level,halibel lost but was not really defeated by hitsugiya an did not get to show off her most powerful move...but barrgan was high captain level he lost to his own power,ulquiorra was also high captain level but fought a ichigo that was super strong,starrk also was very very strong an never showed what he could really do with his cero gun cuz he never really wanted to fight an Yama fought two captains at once so he was also like high captain level...was 5 an below really vasto lordes?

 

[Forbidden Tale]

1. It's just making exuses. You have their fight in which Isshin overpower him and you have Aizen's statament about him hitting his shinigami limit. He hit his limit, because he couldnt' do anything against Isshin, all his tricks were not strong to beat Isshin. It give Isshin a trouble, but he clearly was weaker than him. U_U

2. Hahaha. Man, I just gave you page, when Aizen said, in order for one to be under illusion i need to release zanpakuto in front of him. Aizen never said "Shatter" KS in front of Ichigo.

Aizen said ryuujin jakka was the strongest zanpacto he means the zanpacto period wether it's shikai or bankai..Yama lost a great deal of power aizen was going to win after sometime most likely Yama don't have to be impressed inorder to lose..aizen won't make the mistake of stabbing him again an letting Yama grab hold of him.

No, Ryuujin Jakka is strongest zanpakuto, he never refered to bankai. At that time Aizen already had Hogyoku inside him. Aizen wouldn't have another chance, since he would be dead. since he already made a mistake.

Vasto lordes? If we talking 4 an up they were pretty strong an were close to the high captain level,halibel lost but was not really defeated by hitsugiya an did not get to show off her most powerful move...but barrgan was high captain level he lost to his own power,ulquiorra was also high captain level but fought a ichigo that was super strong,starrk also was very very strong an never showed what he could really do with his cero gun cuz he never really wanted to fight an Yama fought two captains at once so he was also like high captain level...was 5 an below really vasto lordes?

Mostly of Espadas were VL, not just first 4, that mean at least 6 of them. Noone out of first 4 were close to level of high captain.
Starrk lost to Shikai Kyoraku, who didn't even used bankai, all others are weaker than him.

 

[AizenSosuke]

Part 1: Team Urahara
Part 2:Team Kenpachi

 

[Beetle]

Saying Shikai Isshin > Shikai Aizen is nonsense. When they fought Aizen had already battled numerous opponents and wasn't even using KS. Besides none of the members of Team Kenpachi even fought Aizen.

Anyways..

Pre-Timeskip would probably be Team Urahara.
Post-Timeskip would probably be Team Kenpachi.

There's some obvious comparisons between the teams. You have Urahara/Mayuri who both fight with their wits and inventions, but in either case Urahara has shown better skills at using them in combat situations. Kenpachi/Isshin both seem to rely on sheer force, with Isshin being better pre-Timeskip, and Kenpachi being better post-Timeskip. Yoruichi/Byakuya fight with speed and finesse. Yoruichi being superior pre-Timeskip, and probably roughly equal post-Timeskip.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Saying Shikai Isshin > Shikai Aizen is nonsense. When they fought Aizen had already battled numerous opponents and wasn't even using KS. Besides none of the members of Team Kenpachi even fought Aizen.

1. Hogyoku already healed Aizen at that time, so he wasn't battle worn from his other fights.
2. Aizen stated that he hit his limit while figting Isshin, which mean that he couldn't beat him, while in his shinigami's form.
3. KS can be countered, on top of my head I have 3 ways, as well that Aizen even though has KS, said that some characters are stronger than him and said that Urahara is equal to him.

 

[Memento Mori]

Part 1: Team Urahara
Part 2:Team Kenpachi

I say this U_U

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

Current Zaraki, Shikai Byakuya post time skip, Mayuri...

Yoruichi >>>>>>>>> Mayuri
Shikai Urahara >>>>> Shikai Byakuya
Current Zaraki > Shikai Isshin

But, still after Yoruichi and Urahara finish their fights, they will in tag team defeat Zaraki.

Current Byakuya destroys Urahara without prep. Also, Current Kenpachi destroys any version of Isshin (I doubt even Bankai Isshin can hold his own to a meteor busting Kenny). I can actually see Current Kenpachi solo the other team, based on his performance against Gremmy.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Current Byakuya destroys Urahara without prep. Also, Current Kenpachi destroys any version of Isshin (I doubt even Bankai Isshin can hold his own to a meteor busting Kenny). I can actually see Current Kenpachi solo the other team, based on his performance against Gremmy.

Urahara, by Aizen's words are on his level of power.
Destroying meteor doesn't mean that you will beat someone who can't destroy meteor, it just show that you have most destructive power. Except for zainjutsu, Zaraki is weaker in any other categories (Hakuda, Kido, Inteligence), and maybe he is better in reitasu, but I doubt that. Even though Zaraki was stated to be beast in reitasu, it was also implied that Byakuya has bigger reiatsu than him in SS arc and I do think that Urahara/Isshin would have quite bigger reiatsu than Byakuya. On top of that Urahara/Isshin has both shikai and bankai, unlike Zaraki that have only Shikai.

What did Current Byakuya demonstrate to you, so that you say that he will destroy Urahara??
As stated by As Nodt, Byakuya's shikai is strong as his previous Bankai. Urahara in shikai is still strong as Aizen, by Aizen's statament.

Gremmy also isn't impressive, except for his imagination, he can't do anything more. He don't has Blut, Spirit Weapon he don't even has body, he didn't demonstrate usege of Ginto or Hirenkyaky. He was called monster, but Pepe and Askin were also, on top of that Pepe and Askin were hyped so much more than Gremmy, considering their early arrival and that Kubo still keep their powers in secret..
Could Pepe and Askin be stronger than Urahara, Isshin?
Maybe, but highly unlikely.

 

[Killuaa]

Urahara, by Aizen's words are on his level of power.
Destroying meteor doesn't mean that you will beat someone who can't destroy meteor, it just show that you have most destructive power. Except for zainjutsu, Zaraki is weaker in any other categories (Hakuda, Kido, Inteligence), and maybe he is better in reitasu, but I doubt that. Even though Zaraki was stated to be beast in reitasu, it was also implied that Byakuya has bigger reiatsu than him in SS arc and I do think that Urahara/Isshin would have quite bigger reiatsu than Byakuya. On top of that Urahara/Isshin has both shikai and bankai, unlike Zaraki that have only Shikai.

What did Current Byakuya demonstrate to you, so that you say that he will destroy Urahara??
As stated by As Nodt, Byakuya's shikai is strong as his previous Bankai. Urahara in shikai is still strong as Aizen, by Aizen's statament.

Gremmy also isn't impressive, except for his imagination, he can't do anything more. He don't has Blut, Spirit Weapon he don't even has body, he didn't demonstrate usege of Ginto or Hirenkyaky. He was called monster, but Pepe and Askin were also, on top of that Pepe and Askin were hyped so much more than Gremmy, considering their early arrival and that Kubo still keep their powers in secret..
Could Pepe and Askin be stronger than Urahara, Isshin?
Maybe, but highly unlikely.

I agree with everything here. I like Kenpachi but he seems overrated because of his Destructive Capacity.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

Urahara, by Aizen's words are on his level of power.

Of intelligence.

Destroying meteor doesn't mean that you will beat someone who can't destroy meteor, it just show that you have most destructive power. Except for zainjutsu, Zaraki is weaker in any other categories (Hakuda, Kido, Inteligence), and maybe he is better in reitasu, but I doubt that. Even though Zaraki was stated to be beast in reitasu, it was also implied that Byakuya has bigger reiatsu than him in SS arc and I do think that Urahara/Isshin would have quite bigger reiatsu than Byakuya. On top of that Urahara/Isshin has both shikai and bankai, unlike Zaraki that have only Shikai.

Well lets see, he has the most powerful attack in the manga so far, I don't think we can argue that. He also has the best durability and endurance in the manga so far, considering he tanked an

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until he was finally down for the count. I don't Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi bringing anything more powerful then galaxy room alone, let alone all the other things he tanked. But lets continue, he was fast enough to blitz Gremmy before he can imagine things

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, and it only takes the brain mili seconds to think of something btw. In terms of reiatsu, Zaraki dwarfs Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi, there is no question about that, he has yet to take off his eye patch and yet he is called a monster by even the likes of Gremmy. Despite his looks and attitude, he was actually smart enough to pick up on Gremmys abilities on two different instances

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, Gremmy even commends him for figuring it out in the first instance. And there there is even hype that he is on Current Ichigo's level, firstly, the fact that Gremmy is supposedly the strongest Quincy and he beat him without even taking off his eye patch, secondly, the fact that supposedly Kenpachi's full strength is not something even the Gotei 13 can control, thirdly, a kid Kenpachi beat Prime Unohana with a random sword, and lastly,

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. I think you are severally underestimating Kenpachi, he should be around current Ichigo's level (Grimmjow will probably also be around that level of strength when we see him battling, hopefully Bazz B). With all that said, without prep, he should be fully capable of beating Urahara, Yoruichi and Shikai Isshin without even taking off his eye patch.

What did Current Byakuya demonstrate to you, so that you say that he will destroy Urahara??
As stated by As Nodt, Byakuya's shikai is strong as his previous Bankai. Urahara in shikai is still strong as Aizen, by Aizen's statament.

The AoE of his Shikai is not something a Non-Fighter type like Urahara can deal with. Its been well established that with enough prep and intel, characters like Mayuri and Urahara can beat nearly any character in the Bleach verse, but without prep, they are not all that threatening as fighters (At least until we see Urahara's Bankai, if we do). I actually think Byakuya could straight up blitz Urahara. As Urahara has never really shown overly impressive speed while Byakuya is one of e fastest characters in all of Bleach.

Gremmy also isn't impressive, except for his imagination, he can't do anything more. He don't has Blut, Spirit Weapon he don't even has body, he didn't demonstrate usege of Ginto or Hirenkyaky. He was called monster, but Pepe and Askin were also, on top of that Pepe and Askin were hyped so much more than Gremmy, considering their early arrival and that Kubo still keep their powers in secret..
Could Pepe and Askin be stronger than Urahara, Isshin?
Maybe, but highly unlikely.

His imagination can do everything though, just like Gaara's sand, its one power that opens up to countless possibilities. Gremmy is the Top 5 strongest characters in the manga so far going off of feats, so saying he is not that impressive is way too bold of a move. Only the likes of Yamamoto, Current Ichigo, Kenpachi and Juha Bach can beat him (And Aizen infused with the Hogyoku) are stronger then him.

 

[Beetle]

1. Hogyoku already healed Aizen at that time, so he wasn't battle worn from his other fights.
2. Aizen stated that he hit his limit while figting Isshin, which mean that he couldn't beat him, while in his shinigami's form.
3. KS can be countered, on top of my head I have 3 ways, as well that Aizen even though has KS, said that some characters are stronger than him and said that Urahara is equal to him.

I think you're mistaken on a lot of your points. Aizen is not equal to Urahara, when he said that they were no longer equals he was saying that with the Hogyoku he is no longer on the same level as ordinary Shinigami. He did say that Urahara was more intelligent than him, but that doesn't lend Urahara sheer power. Furthermore, it was shown that Aizen was slowing down physically during his fight with Urahara's group, suggesting that he actually was tiring as a Shinigami. What you're basically implying is that Isshin can handle all the Vizards, half the captains, and Ichigo with Shikai.. nonsense.

 

[Forbidden Tale]

Of intelligence.

// You are the only one, whose mind is more brilliant than mine / even thought our power is no longer equal, you still interest me. //

Well lets see, he has the most powerful attack in the manga so far, I don't think we can argue that. He also has the best durability and endurance in the manga so far, considering he tanked an

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until he was finally down for the count. I don't Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi bringing anything more powerful then galaxy room alone, let alone all the other things he tanked. But lets continue, he was fast enough to blitz Gremmy before he can imagine things

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, and it only takes the brain mili seconds to think of something btw. In terms of reiatsu, Zaraki dwarfs Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi, there is no question about that, he has yet to take off his eye patch and yet he is called a monster by even the likes of Gremmy. Despite his looks and attitude, he was actually smart enough to pick up on Gremmys abilities on two different instances

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, Gremmy even commends him for figuring it out in the first instance. And there there is even hype that he is on Current Ichigo's level, firstly, the fact that Gremmy is supposedly the strongest Quincy and he beat him without even taking off his eye patch, secondly, the fact that supposedly Kenpachi's full strength is not something even the Gotei 13 can control, thirdly, a kid Kenpachi beat Prime Unohana with a random sword, and lastly,

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. I think you are severally underestimating Kenpachi, he should be around current Ichigo's level (Grimmjow will probably also be around that level of strength when we see him battling, hopefully Bazz B). With all that said, without prep, he should be fully capable of beating Urahara, Yoruichi and Shikai Isshin without even taking off his eye patch.

I do agree with some extent that some other characters wouldn't be able to survive that, but manga never neccessary stated that no one other than Zaraki would die there.

If Zaraki was able to think 'fast against' Gremmy, than I wouldn't even doubt what Urahara would do and other two as well.

Kid Kenpachi would actually put good fight against Current Kenpachi, so just because he was kid, it won't make you argument further here.

Byakuya had higher reiatsu than Zaraki in SS arc, so I do believe that Urahara should have higher reiatsu than Current Zaraki.

I do belive that Current Zaraki is likely more powerful than Shikai form of Urahara or Isshin, but can't see him being stronger than their bankais.

I don't see how would taking off eye patch make a much of difference. Eye patch was made for him to eat his reiatsu to same extent. By removing it, Zaraki was comparable to captain in bankai. Now, there were no indications that he has new eye patch, so increase of power shouldn't be big as it was before.

To put it in numbers... Numbers are just my examples:

Pre Muken Kenpachi patched (level 10)---> Pre Muken Kenpachi unpatched (level 50) ---> got stronger = +40
Muken Kenpachi patched (level 200) ----->Muken Kenpachi unpatched (level 240) ----> still just =+40

Just because he is SWP, don't mean that he is strong as Ichigo and definitly Grimm will not be strong as these two.

Tho, I do belive that by the end of series Kenpachi, will be stronger than Urahara.

The AoE of his Shikai is not something a Non-Fighter type like Urahara can deal with. Its been well established that with enough prep and intel, characters like Mayuri and Urahara can beat nearly any character in the Bleach verse, but without prep, they are not all that threatening as fighters (At least until we see Urahara's Bankai, if we do). I actually think Byakuya could straight up blitz Urahara. As Urahara has never really shown overly impressive speed while Byakuya is one of e fastest characters in all of Bleach.

I do think that Urahara should be faster than Byakuya.
He was member of Special Corps, it was stated that they are masters of Shunpo, if I remember correctly he was able to switch his real body to his 'gigai' in front of Aizen, which show incredeble speed, as well that he trained with Yoruichi (same as Byakuya), one of the fastest characters in series.

I don't believe that Byakuya will be even in top 10 in speed.

His imagination can do everything though, just like Gaara's sand, its one power that opens up to countless possibilities. Gremmy is the Top 5 strongest characters in the manga so far going off of feats, so saying he is not that impressive is way too bold of a move. Only the likes of Yamamoto, Current Ichigo, Kenpachi and Juha Bach can beat him (And Aizen infused with the Hogyoku) are stronger then him.

actually, it's not the case, if his imagination could do anything, he wouldn't lose to Kenpachi and for the fast that you numbered other characters, also said that it can't do everything.

I would respectfully disagree. Yamamoto, Yhwach, Jugram, Ichigo, Aizen, Kenpachi, Royd can beat him.
100% sure that Urahara, Isshin, Shinigami Aizen, Uryu, at least three from RG, can beat him.
Very likely: Askin, Pepe, Kirio, Shutara, Yoruichi

 

[Forbidden Tale]

I think you're mistaken on a lot of your points. Aizen is not equal to Urahara, when he said that they were no longer equals he was saying that with the Hogyoku he is no longer on the same level as ordinary Shinigami. He did say that Urahara was more intelligent than him, but that doesn't lend Urahara sheer power. Furthermore, it was shown that Aizen was slowing down physically during his fight with Urahara's group, suggesting that he actually was tiring as a Shinigami. What you're basically implying is that Isshin can handle all the Vizards, half the captains, and Ichigo with Shikai.. nonsense.

No, he clearly said, even though our power is no longer equal. If he said though we are no longer equal, without mentioning power, than I would agree that it can be interputed in different ways, but he didn't.

If Isshin was able to beat Aizen, and Aizen was able to beat all these characters, than what's the problem with Isshin being able to do same as Aizen???

He was slowing down, but it was showed that he was pushed back by Isshin, so if you are weaker (not by much), it would be just naturally to slow down during the fight, since you are the weaker one.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

// You are the only one, whose mind is more brilliant than mine / even thought our power is no longer equal, you still interest me. //

He was either taking into account Urahara's featless Bankai, or Urahara with prep, since Urahara came to fight him with prep, or probably both. Matter of fact is, Urahara has not shown the same level of power as any version of Aizen without prep.

Either way, current Byakuya > base Aizen.

I do agree with some extent that some other characters wouldn't be able to survive that, but manga never neccessary stated that no one other than Zaraki would die there.

That's a fallacy. No one has shown the kind of durability and endurance that Zaraki displayed against the Quincy, period. Galaxy Room alone would bring nearly anyone at deaths door, add everything else he tanked, and there is simply no one that comes close.

If Zaraki was able to think 'fast against' Gremmy, than I wouldn't even doubt what Urahara would do and other two as well.

In no shape or form was I trying to compare Zarakis intelligence with Uraharas, I am fully aware that Urahara is leagues above Kenpachi in intelligence. However its still an impressive intelligence feat that cannot go unnoticed, and I pointed it out.

Kid Kenpachi would actually put good fight against Current Kenpachi, so just because he was kid, it won't make you argument further here.

No he wouldn't, that's a ridiculous statement. Current Zaraki literally dwarfs his kid counterpart in Strength, durability, endurance, Reiatsu, speed, intelligence and even has a Shikai to go along with it. Unless you are going to try to claim that Kenpachi hardly improved since he was a kid.

Byakuya had higher reiatsu than Zaraki in SS arc, so I do believe that Urahara should have higher reiatsu than Current Zaraki.

The gap between Current Zarakis Reiatsu and his Reiatsu before fighting Unohana is unmeasurable . The gap is as enourmous as the gap between Butterfly Aizen and base Aizen. Urahara's Reiatsu is toddler level compared to Zaraki. Current Zarakis Reiatsu is similar to that of current Ichigo's.

I do belive that Current Zaraki is likely more powerful than Shikai form of Urahara or Isshin, but can't see him being stronger than their bankais.

With all due respect, your letting yor bias get in the way of your judgment. Power wise, Current Zaraki is Butterfly Aizen level minus the immortality. Perhaps even stronger depending on how current Ichigo stacks up against Dangai Ichigo. Zaraki would be capable of beating Urahara and Isshin together, even if both where using their Bankais, without taking off his eye patch, the gap is just that big. Everything they throw at him would probably be nullified with his Reiatsu alone.

I don't see how would taking off eye patch make a much of difference. Eye patch was made for him to eat his reiatsu to same extent. By removing it, Zaraki was comparable to captain in bankai. Now, there were no indications that he has new eye patch, so increase of power shouldn't be big as it was before.

It certainly makes a big difference. Otherwise he wouldn't wear it.

Just because he is SWP, don't mean that he is strong as Ichigo and definitly Grimm will not be strong as these two.

Probably not literally as strong current Ichigo, but he would be capable of giving him a High-Diff fight. I could see Grimmjow being around there level, of course its just an assumption since we know nothing of his current power level. However, the deal that Urahara made with him in exchange for his help was probably to organize a re-match with Ichigo, which hints at his power-level being near Ichigo's.

Tho, I do belive that by the end of series Kenpachi, will be stronger than Urahara.

He is way stronger then him even now.

I do think that Urahara should be faster than Byakuya.
He was member of Special Corps, it was stated that they are masters of Shunpo, if I remember correctly he was able to switch his real body to his 'gigai' in front of Aizen, which show incredeble speed, as well that he trained with Yoruichi (same as Byakuya), one of the fastest characters in series.

No bro, please don't make such ridiculous claims. He was in the same division as Mayuri, they are not fighters, they are scientists. Pre-TS Byakuya was nearly as fast as Yoruichi, who in turn was way faster then Urahara. Now Byakuya has spent time training in the Zero division, while Yoruichi has not even been training to our knowledge, current Byakuya is much faster then Yoruichi, who in turn is much faster then Urahara. Urahara has not shown reflexes that would enable him to dodge Byakuya's blitz.

actually, it's not the case, if his imagination could do anything, he wouldn't lose to Kenpachi and for the fast that you numbered other characters, also said that it can't do everything.

He lost because his imagination killed himself. His imagination could do nearly anything. Obviously not everything.

Galaxy Room or Meteor soloes anyone that I did not mention.

I would respectfully disagree. Yamamoto, Yhwach, Jugram, Ichigo, Aizen, Kenpachi, Royd can beat him.
100% sure that Urahara, Isshin, Shinigami Aizen, Uryu, at least three from RG, can beat him.
Very likely: Askin, Pepe, Kirio, Shutara, Yoruichi

Yamamoto, yes, Yhwach, yes, Jugram, definitely not, Ichigo, yes, Aizen (Only Butterfly and Up), Kenpachi, yes, Royd definitely not.

Urahara, Isshin, Shinigami Aizen all get fodderized, especially Urahara without prep and intel. Uryu I would actually agree, but only with hype of being as strong as Yhwach. Royal Guards are probably slightly weaker, since Jugram would at least be RG level (Otherwise there would be no point of bringing him along) and Gremmy is stronger then Jugram.

Askin and Pepe where literally shitting their pants, and they themselves admitted to be weaker.Yoruichi was slightly stronger then Sui Feng, who is a Low-Tier Captain. She gets fodderized.

The problem in your argument is that you underrate both Gremmy and Kenpachi and severely overrate Urahara. Urahara was even scared of a severally injured Quilge, how can he possibly compete with the characters you are mentioning?

 

[Killuaa]

He was either taking into account Urahara's featless Bankai, or Urahara with prep, since Urahara came to fight him with prep, or probably both. Matter of fact is, Urahara has not shown the same level of power as any version of Aizen without prep.

Either way, current Byakuya > base Aizen.

Sorry, I just have to say my input on this. How is Current Byakuya > Base Aizen when Current Byakuya only has feats that puts him on par with Bankai Rukia, Bankai Renji at best. Both who are massively inferior to Aizen. He hasn't shown new feats that outclasses his old feats.

With all due respect, your letting yor bias get in the way of your judgment. Power wise, Current Zaraki is Butterfly Aizen level minus the immortality. Perhaps even stronger depending on how current Ichigo stacks up against Dangai Ichigo. Zaraki would be capable of beating Urahara and Isshin together, even if both where using their Bankais, without taking off his eye patch, the gap is just that big. Everything they throw at him would probably be nullified with his Reiatsu alone.

LOL. Butterfly Aizen -immortality is Dangai Ichigo tiered. Kenpachi is still nowhere near that. He's just Cocoon Aizen tiered, maybe even a bit lower.

 

[Killua Zoldyck]

Sorry, I just have to say my input on this. How is Current Byakuya > Base Aizen when Current Byakuya only has feats that puts him on par with Bankai Rukia, Bankai Renji at best. Both who are massively inferior to Aizen. He hasn't shown new feats that outclasses his old feats.

lol what? The AoE, speed and stealth of senponzakura has massively increased. And BTW, Bankai Renji is not massively inferior to Shikai Aizen, not at all, he is widely considered to be nearly as strong as him, some actually say stronger (I personally think he is nearly as strong as him).

LOL. Butterfly Aizen -immortality is Dangai Ichigo tiered. Kenpachi is still nowhere near that. He's just Cocoon Aizen tiered, maybe even a bit lower.

Actually Monster Aizen is Dangai Ichigo tiered, Butterfly Aizen is a Tier below. Current Ichigo and Current Kenpachi are both Butterfly Aizen tiered, possibly even higher, as we have not seen the limits of their strength.