[VS] DSM Kabuto and EMS Sasuke vs. Kisame, Edo Itachi, and KCM Naruto

[Brother Numpsay]

Ok lets try this again, to see the relevance. What are the basics of Genjutsu and how does it work.

 

[TRE MERCER]

I asked you why wouldn't KM Naruto be able to break out of Genjutsu if he is a perfect jinchūriki?​

This is the best version of KCM Naruto. War Arc KCM Naruto=Friends with Kurama. Don't know why people try and pull this nonsense, but it's not gonna fly here buddy. Why would we take the weaker version of KCM Naruto?

I guess we should take beginning of War Arc EMS Sasuke and use him for this debate, which means no giant Enton Arrow, no Legged Susanoo. Just V4, Enton Blade, and Enton Magatama..smh.

Good point but in the time it takes this to break out of it Amaterasu would have already killed Naruto and what stops Kabuto from using sound genjutsu again to constantly keep them occupied?

 

[Rιver]

Ok lets try this again, to see the relevance. What are the basics of Genjutsu and how does it work.

Go read if you're so misinformed [

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].​

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Go read if you're so misinformed [

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].​

This is where I am getting at, you so misinformed that you think that Genjutsu doesn't need to work without sending chakra through the brain, without the 5 senses[

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]. In order for you to make the claims that Ephemeral carries the same priorities like a Genjutsu like Izanami, requires proof to which you dont have. Its a fact that Naruto made eye contact to the caster via Finger. Its a fact that Itachi and Kisame made eye contact to Kurinai wielding the handseal to perform the Genjutsu. Its a fact that Hiruzen made eye contact to Hashirama doing the same. All of these are FACTS! that contact needs to be made to send chakra to someones brains.

That fact that you think this Ephemeral Genjutsu can work to someone or something that can block their eye vision, when canonically was impossible, but just needs a single point for it to work is a big face palm.

 

[Rιver]

This is where I am getting at, you so misinformed that you think that Genjutsu doesn't need to work without sending chakra through the brain, without the 5 senses[

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]. In order for you to make the claims that Ephemeral carries the same priorities like a Genjutsu like Izanami, requires proof to which you dont have. Its a fact that Naruto made eye contact to the caster via Finger. Its a fact that Itachi and Kisame made eye contact to Kurinai wielding the handseal to perform the Genjutsu. Its a fact that Hiruzen made eye contact to Hashirama doing the same. All of these are FACTS! that contact needs to be made to send chakra to someones brains.

That fact that you think this Ephemeral Genjutsu can work to someone or something that can block their eye vision, when canonically was impossible, but just needs a single point for it to work is a big face palm.

You're twisting words badly. No one said that Genjutsu is used by sending chakra to the brain, it was said that Genjutsu is done by controlling the brain's chakra system. What if the opponent just sent chakra to the feet of the opponent? What if the opponent sent a chakra wave large enough that everything within 360 degree radius would get caught? Unquantifiable and irrelevant. It also destroys the principle of Sharingan; why does the opponent get caught only when looking at the eyes? What happened to the chakra waves? You're literally grasping at straws here.

How come it's so hard for people to understand the scan? 1. Itachi clearly stated that one finger is enough and eyes aren't needed 2. Naruto stated that eye contact isn't needed and only if the finger is pointed at you, you are hallucinating onwards. You can't change the fact no matter what you say.

How does it matter what Kurenai and Hashirama did? It's as if I stated that because of these events, Mateki: Mugen Onsa requires eye contact - which is simply ridiculous. Naruto stated that he never looked at his eyes, and Itachi stated that a finger to point at the target [later verified by Naruto] was enough to trap one in illusion. You don't even know if Kurenai's and Hashirama's jutsu require eye contact... ludicrous.

At the last paragraph, I can hardly take you seriously anymore. When was it canonically impossible if he never even tried it out and Kabuto had no intel on it? How come eyes are even needed here if they were explicitly stated in the manga to not be needed? Restrict even hearing, and the Ephemeral still affects his target. Itachi has already stated that some Genjutsu can work regardless of the five senses.

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If clarified in the manga, why is Ephemeral so special? I cannot comprehend your logic here. It's just too illogical for me.
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[Brother Numpsay]

You're twisting words badly. No one said that Genjutsu is used by sending chakra to the brain, it was said that Genjutsu is done by controlling the brain's chakra system. What if the opponent just sent chakra to the feet of the opponent? What if the opponent sent a chakra wave large enough that everything within 360 degree radius would get caught? Unquantifiable and irrelevant. It also destroys the principle of Sharingan; why does the opponent get caught only when looking at the eyes? What happened to the chakra waves? You're literally grasping at straws here.​

No your twisting words. Its clear that statement was said they send chakra to their cranial nerves.

@Bold then you would be wrong since you can't fool your leg without the brain responding with no genjutsu lmao. The only one grasping straws is you. Its clear how Genjutsu works, while you trying to make other options that aren't going to respond the brain via 5 senses.

How come it's so hard for people to understand the scan? 1. Itachi clearly stated that one finger is enough and eyes aren't needed 2. Naruto stated that eye contact isn't needed and only if the finger is pointed at you, you are hallucinating onwards. You can't change the fact no matter what you say.

Yea how come is it so hard for someone to understand that Genjutsu works by using the 5 senses as the medium to send chakra through the brain. It really isn't hard to understand at all. You like to twist words that Naruto doesn't need to see the pointed finger, when he literally saw himself looking. No matter what you say a Genjutsu not working with out the 5 senses is ludicrous. Unless you saying that Ephemeral works with the physical senses of yourself and the opponent, without the 5 senses, like how Izanami works, then we are done here.

How does it matter what Kurenai and Hashirama did? It's as if I stated that because of these events, Mateki: Mugen Onsa requires eye contact - which is simply ridiculous. Naruto stated that he never looked at his eyes, and Itachi stated that a finger to point at the target [later verified by Naruto] was enough to trap one in illusion. You don't even know if Kurenai's and Hashirama's jutsu require eye contact... ludicrous.

It does matter what they did as they share the same genjutsu priorities that doesn't use their eyes to use Genjutsu. If you stated Mugen Onsa requires eye contact then that makes you an idiot as this jutsu shows another way of using one of your 5 senses as a medium to put you under genjutsu via hearing. Which how Genjutsu works.

At the last paragraph, I can hardly take you seriously anymore. When was it canonically impossible if he never even tried it out and Kabuto had no intel on it? How come eyes are even needed here if they were explicitly stated in the manga to not be needed? Restrict even hearing, and the Ephemeral still affects his target. Itachi has already stated that some Genjutsu can work regardless of the five senses.

Spoiler

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If clarified in the manga, why is Ephemeral so special? I cannot comprehend your logic here. It's just too illogical for me.

​

Lmao, never even trying the Genjutsu to prove that it wouldn't work or not? So is Itachi a dumbass all of the sudden? That he doesn't know how Genjutsu works, which requires the 5 senses as a medium to send chakra to the brain? And think the only way for it to work is a genjutsu that doesn't require the 5 senses of the human body but something forbidden to bypass it all?

We have nothing else to discuss here as you can't even understand the functions of Genjutsus.

 

[Rιver]

No your twisting words. Its clear that statement was said they send chakra to their cranial nerves.

@Bold then you would be wrong since you can't fool your leg without the brain responding with no genjutsu lmao. The only one grasping straws is you. Its clear how Genjutsu works, while you trying to make other options that aren't going to respond the brain via 5 senses.

No, I'll quote it;

''Right Naruto... Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent's five senses, to control the the chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves. It is a jutsu requiring quite a high level of intellect...''

So could you please enlighten me how is it required for the chakra to be sent from X person to Y person's brain in a straight line? Why can it not move from leg to head? Why can it not travel? No reason.​

Yea how come is it so hard for someone to understand that Genjutsu works by using the 5 senses as the medium to send chakra through the brain. It really isn't hard to understand at all. You like to twist words that Naruto doesn't need to see the pointed finger, when he literally saw himself looking. No matter what you say a Genjutsu not working with out the 5 senses is ludicrous. Unless you saying that Ephemeral works with the physical senses of yourself and the opponent, without the 5 senses, like how Izanami works, then we are done here.

Definition of a denial;

de·ni·al noun \di-ˈnī(-ə)l, dē-\

a (1) : refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2) : assertion that an allegation is false

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It does matter what they did as they share the same genjutsu priorities that doesn't use their eyes to use Genjutsu. If you stated Mugen Onsa requires eye contact then that makes you an idiot as this jutsu shows another way of using one of your 5 senses as a medium to put you under genjutsu via hearing. Which how Genjutsu works.

What is Izanami then...?

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Lmao, never even trying the Genjutsu to prove that it wouldn't work or not? So is Itachi a dumbass all of the sudden? That he doesn't know how Genjutsu works, which requires the 5 senses as a medium to send chakra to the brain? And think the only way for it to work is a genjutsu that doesn't require the 5 senses of the human body but something forbidden to bypass it all?

We have nothing else to discuss here as you can't even understand the functions of Genjutsus.

Pfft.






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[Brother Numpsay]

No, I'll quote it;

''Right Naruto... Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent's five senses, to control the the chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves. It is a jutsu requiring quite a high level of intellect...''

So could you please enlighten me how is it required for the chakra to be sent from X person to Y person's brain in a straight line? Why can it not move from leg to head? Why can it not travel? No reason.​

Definition of a denial;

de·ni·al noun \di-ˈnī(-ə)l, dē-\

a (1) : refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2) : assertion that an allegation is false

Spoiler

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What is Izanami then...?

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Pfft.






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Point 1: So you want to underline two words to prove a point, which ironically is called grasping straws, then to read the whole sentense saying needing the opponents 5 senses. Interesting.


Point 2: Want to say i am in denial when you want to mis inerpret scans to prove your point and condradict on how genjutsu works. And saying that Narutos statement means that the jutsu he used on of his 5 senses for, via sight, is irrelevant to the effect of finger genjutsu. Right.

Point 3: Izanami is a forbidden jutsu that uses the sensation of you and the opponet in order to catch them in a genjutsu. 5 senses are not required.

Point 4:

Definition of a denial;

de·ni·al noun \di-ˈnī(-ə)l, dē-\

a (1) : refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2) : assertion that an allegation is false​

 

[SuperChief]

KCM Naruto solos. He runs laps around the both of them, can spam Kage buster clones and spam FRS. It's a done deal.

 

[Gagster]

KCM Naruto solos with KA.

 

[Jimihendrix]

slap yourself i already owned you in that ems sasuke vs kmc naruto let alone sasuke with a standing susanoo he solos

didn't you lose thtat debate?
/thread

 

[Rιver]

Point 1: So you want to underline two words to prove a point, which ironically is called grasping straws, then to read the whole sentense saying needing the opponents 5 senses. Interesting.

How are you going to prove it wrong then?

This is false, and you're completely molding my words by your interpretation, which is utterly false too. This is not what I said. I never said that Genjutsu doesn't control the five senses of the opponent, what I said was this:


''At the last paragraph, I can hardly take you seriously anymore. When was it canonically impossible if he never even tried it out and Kabuto had no intel on it? How come eyes are even needed here if they were explicitly stated in the manga to not be needed? Restrict even hearing, and the Ephemeral still affects his target. Itachi has already stated that some Genjutsu can work regardless of the five senses.''


This is what you said:


''This is where I am getting at, you so misinformed that you think that Genjutsu doesn't need to work without sending chakra through the brain, without the 5 senses[1].''


This also tells me that you don't know much about Genjutsu. Let me quote Jiraiya again:

''Right Naruto... Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent's five senses, to control the the chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves. It is a jutsu requiring quite a high level of intellect...''

There is nothing said about execution, only that it manipulates the five senses of the opponent.
​

Point 2: Want to say i am in denial when you want to mis inerpret scans to prove your point and condradict on how genjutsu works. And saying that Narutos statement means that the jutsu he used on of his 5 senses for, via sight, is irrelevant to the effect of finger genjutsu. Right.

*Sigh*... Quote the part you see that Naruto mentions five senses to be needed and I'll shut up for good, because he clearly says this.

Spoiler

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''One this guy's made the seals, he can trap you in his Genjutsu with a single finger... I have to be careful...!''


The five senses are not needed.​

Point 3: Izanami is a forbidden jutsu that uses the sensation of you and the opponet in order to catch them in a genjutsu. 5 senses are not required.

So why is Ephemeral so special?​

Point 4:

Definition of a denial;

de·ni·al noun \di-ˈnī(-ə)l, dē-\

a (1) : refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2) : assertion that an allegation is false​

Pfft...​

​

 

[Nattana]

Susanoo-coated Manda 2 with assistance of both Kabuto and Sasuke rotflstomp.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

How are you going to prove it wrong then?

This is false, and you're completely molding my words by your interpretation, which is utterly false too. This is not what I said. I never said that Genjutsu doesn't control the five senses of the opponent, what I said was this:


''At the last paragraph, I can hardly take you seriously anymore. When was it canonically impossible if he never even tried it out and Kabuto had no intel on it? How come eyes are even needed here if they were explicitly stated in the manga to not be needed? Restrict even hearing, and the Ephemeral still affects his target. Itachi has already stated that some Genjutsu can work regardless of the five senses.''


This is what you said:


''This is where I am getting at, you so misinformed that you think that Genjutsu doesn't need to work without sending chakra through the brain, without the 5 senses[1].''


This also tells me that you don't know much about Genjutsu. Let me quote Jiraiya again:

''Right Naruto... Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent's five senses, to control the the chakra flowing through and linking their cranial nerves. It is a jutsu requiring quite a high level of intellect...''

There is nothing said about execution, only that it manipulates the five senses of the opponent.
​

*Sigh*... Quote the part you see that Naruto mentions five senses to be needed and I'll shut up for good, because he clearly says this.

Spoiler

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''One this guy's made the seals, he can trap you in his Genjutsu with a single finger... I have to be careful...!''


The five senses are not needed.​

So why is Ephemeral so special?​

Pfft...​

Point 1: No what you are doing is trying make finger genjutsu an exception like Izanami. Which is completely false. Nothing I am saying is taking out of context.

Point 2: It doesnt work that way nice try. We clearly have Naruto reminisce over Jiriyas words in that situation of Itachis genjutsu.

Point 3: It isnt to what you are trying to make it out to be.

Point 4: So far you are being hard headed about the belief of finger genjutsu. You are trying to make this genjutsu make out the works as Izanami. And because of that you are concluding that this genjutsu is more broken then izanami itself. You refuse to answer how Kurinai and Hashirama genjutsu functions too as they are very similar genjutsu via no eye to eye contact genjutsu. Your conclusion is basically saying that these jutsu have the same priorities as Izanami, using the oppoents and yours sensation to work.

You are calling Kabuto an idiot to think genjutsu doesnt work without some contact.

You arw calling Itachi an idiot for not even trying it if he knows that it will work or not.

Just so that you would refuse a concession on your genjutsu point

 

[Rιver]

Point 1: No what you are doing is trying make finger genjutsu an exception like Izanami. Which is completely false. Nothing I am saying is taking out of context.

Point 2: It doesnt work that way nice try. We clearly have Naruto reminisce over Jiriyas words in that situation of Itachis genjutsu.

Point 3: It isnt to what you are trying to make it out to be.

Point 4: So far you are being hard headed about the belief of finger genjutsu. You are trying to make this genjutsu make out the works as Izanami. And because of that you are concluding that this genjutsu is more broken then izanami itself. You refuse to answer how Kurinai and Hashirama genjutsu functions too as they are very similar genjutsu via no eye to eye contact genjutsu. Your conclusion is basically saying that these jutsu have the same priorities as Izanami, using the oppoents and yours sensation to work.

You are calling Kabuto an idiot to think genjutsu doesnt work without some contact.

You arw calling Itachi an idiot for not even trying it if he knows that it will work or not.

Just so that you would refuse a concession on your genjutsu point

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Oh my.

...

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Just to ask you a few questions, because apparently a clear panel statement is something you refuse to accept:


1. How does Itachi's Ephemeral work?

2. What is required for it to successfully capture one in Genjutsu?

3. Why are these not required?


A logical explanation, with a few manga scans would enlighten me. It's very hard for me to take you seriously anymore.



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[Brother Numpsay]

Im not refusing anything lmao. You are taking Narutos words with no context of what method he is using to put him under genjutsu. And because that you are refusing any method not stated you want to conclude having Izanami priorities. ridiculous person in here is you.

1. It works by his opponent meeting eye contact with his finger.

2. using one of the 5 senses as a medium to connect chakra into their brain. With the exception of Izamani which doesn't use neither.

3. what requirements are you talking about

 

[Rιver]

Im not refusing anything lmao. You are taking Narutos words with no context of what method he is using to put him under genjutsu. And because that you are refusing any method not stated you want to conclude having Izanami priorities. ridiculous person in here is you.

1. It works by his opponent meeting eye contact with his finger.

2. using one of the 5 senses as a medium to connect chakra into their brain. With the exception of Izamani which doesn't use neither.

3. what requirements are you talking about

So when has he ever looked at his finger directly? In here, he doesn't look at his finger [

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], while Naruto also never said that he directly looked at his finger in the first encounter.

You also claim that every Genjutsu require 5 senses, despite the fact that Izanami doesn't need one. Your counter is 'Izanami is special'? Why isn't Ephemeral so special? Because it's not a Kinjutsu? I beg your pardon.

It has never been stated according to my knowledge that 5 senses are mandatory to execute Genjutsu. Where did your statement come from? I wonder...

I also wanted to ask, why did this jutsu work if Sasuke nor Jūgo had any eye contact with C... [

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]? Wow, doesn't this totally contradict your point? Should have brought this earlier.

So you have nothing that supports this claim, and in fact, deny them... I suppose?

You're an interesting one, indeed.

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