[DEBATE] Killer Bee(Kifflom) vs Kisame (YounqDebater)

[Zexion~]

Ok im ready to judge.... I'll start off by saying the victor of the debate in my eyes.....

Kifflom wins this debate

He debated it with poise and actually added creative strategies to his shinobi, and thought outside the box while using his jutsu of course you did state some fallacies however OD failed to pounce on them, all in all your use of TB Whirlwind which was never fully countered by O.D Basically beat all of his arguments...

OD, This was a poor debate from you although One bright spot was your explanation on GSB's absorption abilities i liked that, However other then that you barely used any thought in your use of Kisame's jutsu, you merely stated the jutsu you were going to use and barely explained how or why it was being used, Also a counter to the TBB barage was that you're in water :| So there is no solid force to cause the explosion of the bombs until they left the dome safely...... But anyways yeah you needed more though and creativity in your arguments

Kifflom won this

 

[ARGUS]

Ok im ready to judge.... I'll start off by saying the victor of the debate in my eyes.....

Kifflom wins this debate

He debated it with poise and actually added creative strategies to his shinobi, and thought outside the box while using his jutsu of course you did state some fallacies however OD failed to pounce on them, all in all your use of TB Whirlwind which was never fully countered by O.D Basically beat all of his arguments...

OD, This was a poor debate from you although One bright spot was your explanation on GSB's absorption abilities i liked that, However other then that you barely used any thought in your use of Kisame's jutsu, you merely stated the jutsu you were going to use and barely explained how or why it was being used, Also a counter to the TBB barage was that you're in water :| So there is no solid force to cause the explosion of the bombs until they left the dome safely...... But anyways yeah you needed more though and creativity in your arguments

Kifflom won this

Thanks man
I appreciate that you took ur time to throughout read the debate

 

[KidGamer65]

Kifflom

Spoiler

First off, I want to address the things that were wrong with your post.

-You claimed that Bijuu Hachimaki (B's whirlwind) was equal to Hirudora, which is false. And it didn't help that you didn't have any conclusive proof backing your claim, and that the manga already shows things that make your claim false. You based Whirlwind=Hirudora off of the former's AoE, which is a terrible way to judge the power of attacks. C2's explosion is far larger than FRS, but FRS is still much stronger as an example. And the Whirlwind didn't even do any physical damage to the Edo Jinchuuriki, it just blew them away, so that was definitely wrong. The only way it'd do damage is if the tails hit him as B spun around, but you never mentioned anything like that

-You claimed that Samehada can't absorb without direct contact, but YD posted a scan that pretty much shows the pencil flying by and the Raiton around it being absorbed while its in mid air, not in contact with the sword.

-You claimed that Bijuu Dama's explosion isn't chakra, which is also wrong. Logically the explosion of a chakra bomb should be chakra. Rasengan's explosion is made of chakra. Why not Bijuu Dama? YounqDebater even hard countered this part of your post by showing that the Bijuu Dama's explosion was negated by the TSBs, meaning it was chakra, Ninjutsu, and was negated. Your reply didn't even counter his retort, you stated that the TSBs negated the Bijuu Dama, not the explosion, even though the Bijuu Dama never once touched the shield.

-You claimed that Hachibi could reform its tentacles, which isn't true. Naruto and B have never been shown to reform any limbs of their Bijuu Transformations until its been undone and their Bijuu have had time to gather more chakra, but its a minor detail.

As for the good, you gave a hard counter to GSB by mentioning the whirlwind, which would no doubt take care of GSB, and YD never actually posted a legit counter to this, so that pretty much ended his most of his argument as it was all based around GSB finishing him off. I like you used the no limits fallacy to show that GSB isn't absorbing multiple Bijuu Dama. You hard countered YD talking about how Preta Path and Samehada are in the same league absorption wise, nice job on that. You pretty took out his whole argument with using the whirlwind. Though, you should have forgotten about the no limits fallacy stuff, and stuck to the whirlwind approach as it was a hard counter.

YounqDebater

Spoiler

Like I did Kifflom, I'll start with the errors in your post.

-You claimed that the bigger Samehada gets, the better its absorption, but failed to provide any proof for it, then you tried to give this attribute to GSB. Whether you are right or wrong, I don't know, but you should have gotten some proof or evidence for your claim.

-You were way off when you claimed Preta (Nagato) and Samehada have similar absorption properties. Nagato absorbed a V2 cloak in less than 5 seconds, while Samehada was only able to take 6 tails worth of chakra from Killer B in his V1 state. There is a clear difference.

-You claimed that the GSB won't be dispersed or blown away by the whirlwind, but your evidence was shaky and didn't really make sense. Not only did Hirudora deflate, it wasn't meant to blow it away like the whirlwind is...and even then the shark bullet's shape started to become disfigured...and it didn't even explode.

You and Kifflom were both wrong though when it came to B's V2 Lariat. Kifflom said that B did hit him while you said that he reacted and blocked. Neither happened. He had his sword guarding him from the start, then B hit the sword and the impact was softened. Whatever else was left did that to Kisame's chest. This won't go against either of you though.

I like how you mentioned Subterranean Voyage has a way to evade Bijuu Dama. If Kisame goes deep enough, it works perfectly. You should have stuck with it though instead of relying on GSB absorbing 4 Bijuu Dama at a time, which is hard to claim without any kind of feat. I like how you noted Kisame not needing to output as much as Bijuu Dama does in order to deal serious damage to Killer B, though you shouldn't have compared his attacks to the 5 Tails' attacks...though it served as a good example.

Winner

Spoiler

The winner is Kifflom. YD could have taken this if only he had dropped the GSB vs multiple Bijuu Dama, and focused on dodging them using Subterranean Voyage, and if he had relied on the Water Dome and Kisame's fused state more. It could have been close, but since he decided to rely on the featless GSB, Kifflom got him with the whirlwind, which there was no legit counter for. With that countered, YD pretty much had no argument that details how Kisame actually finishes Killer B off, while Kifflom had the whirlwind and Bijuu Dama as a counter for GSB and a finisher.

Once again, Kifflom takes this.

 

[ARGUS]

Kifflom

Spoiler

First off, I want to address the things that were wrong with your post.

-You claimed that Bijuu Hachimaki (B's whirlwind) was equal to Hirudora, which is false. And it didn't help that you didn't have any conclusive proof backing your claim, and that the manga already shows things that make your claim false. You based Whirlwind=Hirudora off of the former's AoE, which is a terrible way to judge the power of attacks. C2's explosion is far larger than FRS, but FRS is still much stronger as an example. And the Whirlwind didn't even do any physical damage to the Edo Jinchuuriki, it just blew them away, so that was definitely wrong. The only way it'd do damage is if the tails hit him as B spun around, but you never mentioned anything like that

-You claimed that Samehada can't absorb without direct contact, but YD posted a scan that pretty much shows the pencil flying by and the Raiton around it being absorbed while its in mid air, not in contact with the sword.

-You claimed that Bijuu Dama's explosion isn't chakra, which is also wrong. Logically the explosion of a chakra bomb should be chakra. Rasengan's explosion is made of chakra. Why not Bijuu Dama? YounqDebater even hard countered this part of your post by showing that the Bijuu Dama's explosion was negated by the TSBs, meaning it was chakra, Ninjutsu, and was negated. Your reply didn't even counter his retort, you stated that the TSBs negated the Bijuu Dama, not the explosion, even though the Bijuu Dama never once touched the shield.

-You claimed that Hachibi could reform its tentacles, which isn't true. Naruto and B have never been shown to reform any limbs of their Bijuu Transformations until its been undone and their Bijuu have had time to gather more chakra, but its a minor detail.

As for the good, you gave a hard counter to GSB by mentioning the whirlwind, which would no doubt take care of GSB, and YD never actually posted a legit counter to this, so that pretty much ended his most of his argument as it was all based around GSB finishing him off. I like you used the no limits fallacy to show that GSB isn't absorbing multiple Bijuu Dama. You hard countered YD talking about how Preta Path and Samehada are in the same league absorption wise, nice job on that. You pretty took out his whole argument with using the whirlwind. Though, you should have forgotten about the no limits fallacy stuff, and stuck to the whirlwind approach as it was a hard counter.

YounqDebater

Spoiler

Like I did Kifflom, I'll start with the errors in your post.

-You claimed that the bigger Samehada gets, the better its absorption, but failed to provide any proof for it, then you tried to give this attribute to GSB. Whether you are right or wrong, I don't know, but you should have gotten some proof or evidence for your claim.

-You were way off when you claimed Preta (Nagato) and Samehada have similar absorption properties. Nagato absorbed a V2 cloak in less than 5 seconds, while Samehada was only able to take 6 tails worth of chakra from Killer B in his V1 state. There is a clear difference.

-You claimed that the GSB won't be dispersed or blown away by the whirlwind, but your evidence was shaky and didn't really make sense. Not only did Hirudora deflate, it wasn't meant to blow it away like the whirlwind is...and even then the shark bullet's shape started to become disfigured...and it didn't even explode.

You and Kifflom were both wrong though when it came to B's V2 Lariat. Kifflom said that B did hit him while you said that he reacted and blocked. Neither happened. He had his sword guarding him from the start, then B hit the sword and the impact was softened. Whatever else was left did that to Kisame's chest. This won't go against either of you though.

I like how you mentioned Subterranean Voyage has a way to evade Bijuu Dama. If Kisame goes deep enough, it works perfectly. You should have stuck with it though instead of relying on GSB absorbing 4 Bijuu Dama at a time, which is hard to claim without any kind of feat. I like how you noted Kisame not needing to output as much as Bijuu Dama does in order to deal serious damage to Killer B, though you shouldn't have compared his attacks to the 5 Tails' attacks...though it served as a good example.

Winner

Spoiler

The winner is Kifflom. YD could have taken this if only he had dropped the GSB vs multiple Bijuu Dama, and focused on dodging them using Subterranean Voyage, and if he had relied on the Water Dome and Kisame's fused state more. It could have been close, but since he decided to rely on the featless GSB, Kifflom got him with the whirlwind, which there was no legit counter for. With that countered, YD pretty much had no argument that details how Kisame actually finishes Killer B off, while Kifflom had the whirlwind and Bijuu Dama as a counter for GSB and a finisher.

Once again, Kifflom takes this.

THanks man, and illl VM yu about some of the details regarding my errors

 

[RustledJimmies]

Nice posts, guys.

@KG : Can't octopi reform and remove their tentacles though ?

 

[KidGamer65]

Nice posts, guys.

@KG : Can't octopi reform and remove their tentacles though ?

I know they can remove them, dunno if they can reform them, and even if they can, it should take time. Though I'm more focused on how it works in the manga. Bijuu transformations haven't shown to regenerate limbs just like that, the Bijuu has always had to gather more chakra after the transformation ended.

 

[RustledJimmies]

I know they can remove them, dunno if they can reform them, and even if they can, it should take time. Though I'm more focused on how it works in the manga. Bijuu transformations haven't shown to regenerate limbs just like that, the Bijuu has always had to gather more chakra after the transformation ended.

I read an article from a reliable source that said this :

"...If all else fails, an octopus can lose an arm to escape a predator's grasp and regrow it later with no permanent damage."

So yes, octopi can reform their tentacles.


I know what you mean, but it still should be taken in consideration, as Hachibi's tentacles were reformed while its severed horns and destroyed teeth weren't.

 

[Unorthodox]

damn OD got did worst than me

 

[KidGamer65]

I read an article from a reliable source that said this :

"...If all else fails, an octopus can lose an arm to escape a predator's grasp and regrow it later with no permanent damage."

So yes, octopi can reform their tentacles.


I know what you mean, but it still should be taken in consideration, as Hachibi's tentacles were reformed while its severed horns and destroyed teeth weren't.

Sure, they can reform, but after the Bijuu gathers more chakra. I've never once seen Hachibi's tails regenerate until he lost his Bijuu Mode and regained it.

 

[sharingansennin]

Sorry for the late reply, i just didnt get my hands on a computer

Summary of how Killer bee wins

--Now that killer bee isnt affected by Sabu and Racoon, he can use his full power (i.e the hachibi) and take down kisame rather easily, through his sheer magnitude of firepower

--he can use the 8-tails whirlwind which is the perfect counter to GSB and can blow away kisame along with it,

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--he can use

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which would completely nuke kisame off the planet, and inb4, ''GSB absorbs it, and gets bigger'', thats pure wrong since GSB would still take some time absorbing a TBB,and the constant barrage effect therefore counters the GSB due to the TBB collision causing an explosion with a magnitude that will kill kisame

--his hachibi form also enabless him to reform any of the fallen tentacles and also enables him to counter water dome by swimming perfectly in it,

--

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is even more beneficial for Killer bee, seeing how it canonically

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, as doing this would also take away well over a half of kisames arsenal, and put him at a major disdvantage, as killer bee can also use it, to absorb kisames chakra as well

--kisame simply has nothing at all on killer bees firepower, and with

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which has a higher durability than kisame, as well as hachibi possessing the whirlwind, means that killer bee possessing the non-chakra oriented ninjutsu methods to take out kisame, thus ensuring his win



Agreed with all but the bold,

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, if you notice the bottom right panel,


Thats fine and all, but that was base bee, when killer bee transformed to his V2,

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, and he even admits it

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that killer bee got him, it was only right towards the end of this encounter that kisame managed to suck some chakra off, however the fact that killer bee landed a lethal blow on him clearly means that kisame is much slower than him, as he couldnt prevent himself properly without samehada returning the chakra that was absorbed prior to that encounter



This is wrong again,

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which has raiton infused in it to increase its penetrative power, as

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, as to how the blade failed to pierce him and how kisame absorbed killer bees chakra,


Already debunked this claim,
Kisame didnt react to V2 lariat in that encounter at all,
killer bee perfectly landed the blow on kIsame, as the latter needed the

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Agreed,


--This is a terrible decision for Kisame, as the longer the distance gets, not only would kisame be unable to absorb killer bees chakra properly but this would literally allow Killer BEe to attack him through TBB barrages that would nuke kisame off the planet, or he can also use his 8-tails whirlwind which perfectly counter the samehadas absorption abilities,
therefore increasing the distance means suicide for kisame, especially against someone of hachibis firepower

--your note further emphasises how hachibi can counter the water based attacks quite well,

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the fact that the 5-tails was knocked over and sent flying back through just one-punch means that kisame is sufferring a much worse fate,
not to mention that unlike the V1/V2 chakra shrouds, hachibi form is pure flesh meaning that this time, kisame isnt absorbing chakra effectively before he gets knocked out and then blown away by TBB


Hachibi can reform its tentacles, so that isnt in issue here, not to mention that the fact that

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something thats magnitude is much higher than anything kisame could dish out, clearly tells us that its durability is just as high as most the other bijuu (bar kurama),



Implying that kisames physical attacks are as strong as the 5-tails, thats pure BS if you think thats the case, kisame attempting to land a blow from samehada to hachibs body,

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, the only difference is that unlike the 5-tails kisame isnt as durable, and would suffer a much worse fate,


Wrong again, killer bee was restrained by the chains here which bind the bijuus chakra,
they are not mere ''long sized kunai''
furthermore you are talking like killer bee woud just stand there and let kisame use GSB and feeding sharks,
once he sees GSB coming, killer bee uses the

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and sends kisame flying back, seeing how its magnitude is huge and

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which clearly triumphed over GSB
and took down kisame,

as for the giant feeding sharks,

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, something thats no where near a TBB
all killer bee needs is one TBB and they are done for, let alone a Super TBB or a TBB barrage which would destroy kisame along with all of his jutsus well,


Firstly, a TBB doesnt need to be severely large in size to take out GSB and Kisame,
secondly,

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on top of the fact that you are basing your GSB on pure no-limits fallacy,

secondly, its not just size, but GSB is not absorbing TBB barrages simply becuase not only would it take far too long to absorb one TBB but, once the other TBB collides with the previous one, then GSB is getting taken out, as well as kisame along with it,, and like i said, 8-tails whirlwind is also a perfect counter to GSB,



Again wrong,
TBB barrages would collide before GSB takes its time to absorb the TBB,
its not absorbing TBB that quickly, and its absorption rate at most is in the same league as preta, which would take fairly long to absorb a TBB,
with that being said, Killer Bee can fire off more TBBs, that will explode before GSB absorbs the TBB,
and lastly, claiming that GSB magically absorbs constant TBB instantly is pure BS, and no limits fallacy

One thing you mentioned GSB being bested by Hirudora despite the fact the only reason it didn't work was because Hirudora is pure Taijutsu

 

[ARGUS]

One thing you mentioned GSB being bested by Hirudora despite the fact the only reason it didn't work was because Hirudora is pure Taijutsu

It worked because hirudora isn't chakra based ninjutsu that's all there is to it
The fact that whirlwind isn't chakra based ninjutsu either is exactly why it works
It doesn't have to be taijutsu
Any valid non-chakra oriented ninjutsu would work

 

[ARGUS]

damn OD got did worst than me

No ones better than yu
So ofcourse he did worse

 

[TRE MERCER]

Man i respect what yall got to say but the next time i debate ill ride for the 2nd seat seeing as they get the final post to counter everything above.