EDO Madara vs EMS Madara

[NeutralChaos]

Its irrelevant. As I said above. They are two separate entities for this match. I have no reason to believe that he can de summon a beast that not only has nowhere to go, but a beast that he didn't call for. When you can get something backing these nonsense claims then we can talk.

If listening to reason=Agreeing with your shitty arugments that I and the manga shat on multiple times. Then yeah, I'm not listening to "reason".

Rinnegan has no Ocular Genjutsu properties so its irrelevant, and they both have EMS. So again, you're wrong.

If you aren't going to come up with anything else, then we're done here.

They have the same contract for Kurama. It doesn't matter whether or not they are the same people. Edo Madara either de-summons, or prepares an all out attack and summon Kurama right to the area. Sorry, but this cannot be countered.

 

[KingHashirama]

Depends on what Edo Madara does.

Could go either way.

 

[KidGamer65]

They have the same contract for Kurama. It doesn't matter whether or not they are the same people. Edo Madara either de-summons, or prepares an all out attack and summon Kurama right to the area. Sorry, but this cannot be countered.

Like I said. Where is the evidence that having the same contract allows you to de summon a summoned being that someone ELSE called. A beast that SOMEONE ELSE has under their control? All I'm seeing is your opinion with zero scans backing them up. I don't care for your opinion.

@bold: Then we go back to the simple fact that he has NO attack that is getting past Perfect Susanoo. So the bold is nonsense as well.

Not to mention EMS Madara can just call it back.

Just give it up. Now we've resorted to moronic tactics to give Edo Madara the win. What happened to overpowering him? lmao.

 

[Superior Jinchuriki]

Except....

1. No feats that say Madara has enough chakra to split in half 25 times and then use PS with each of them. Especially since Mokuton Clones don't always have half the user's chakra.

2. One Meteor gets blown up and the Mokuryu fails again like it already did in the manga.

I just about to mention PS, but Edo Madara wins.

 

[KingHashirama]

Like I said. Where is the evidence that having the same contract allows you to de summon a summoned being that someone ELSE called. A beast that SOMEONE ELSE has under their control? All I'm seeing is your opinion with zero scans backing them up. I don't care for your opinion.

@bold: Then we go back to the simple fact that he has NO attack that is getting past Perfect Susanoo. So the bold is nonsense as well.

Not to mention EMS Madara can just call it back.

Just give it up. Now we've resorted to moronic tactics to give Edo Madara the win. What happened to overpowering him? lmao.

Edo Madara's genjutsu > Ems Madara's

And all of Edo Madara's base techniques are enhanced via Hashi's dna.

Also, in one of your previous posts you said all of hashirama's mokuton techs failed against Madara and Kurama, besides the buddha.. however, that is not really true. He simply went straight to the buddha, to end the high scale battle quick (hinted many times in the manga.)

 

[NeutralChaos]

Like I said. Where is the evidence that having the same contract allows you to de summon a summoned being that someone ELSE called. A beast that SOMEONE ELSE has under their control? All I'm seeing is your opinion with zero scans backing them up. I don't care for your opinion.

@bold: Then we go back to the simple fact that he has NO attack that is getting past Perfect Susanoo. So the bold is nonsense as well.

Not to mention EMS Madara can just call it back.

Just give it up. Now we've resorted to moronic tactics to give Edo Madara the win. What happened to overpowering him? lmao.

There is no evidence for what you said. But where's the evidence that the same person with the same contract cannot summon or de-summon their animal? The fact that you think Perfect Susano'o is basically invincible is quite funny. Kaguya's Almighty Push deactivated susano'o, and so will Madara's. I'm pretty sure a susano'o slash could break through susano'o itself as well.

 

[KidGamer65]

Edo Madara's genjutsu > Ems Madara's

And all of Edo Madara's base techniques are enhanced via Hashi's dna.

Hashirama's DNA has never shown to enhance the power of jutsu. It has only given more vitality, and allowed perfect use of Izanagi, since its stated you need Senju and Uchiha's genetic material to make full use of the jutsu.

 

[KidGamer65]

There is no evidence for what you said. But where's the evidence that the same person with the same contract cannot summon or de-summon their animal?

You made the claim and I'm asking for the evidence. Are you asking me for evidence for my question that asks you for your evidence? If so that makes no sense. Burden on proof falls on you buddy. When you can prove your claim that one person can de summon another guy's summoned animal, then we can talk.

The fact that you think Perfect Susano'o is basically invincible is quite funny. Kaguya's Almighty Push deactivated susano'o, and so will Madara's. I'm pretty sure a susano'o slash could break through susano'o itself as well.

Its not invincible. That's the number one thing people cry about when they have nothing to counter Susanoo..."hurr durr its not invincible hurr durr" News flash. It doesn't need to be invincible to tank Edo Madara's attacks.

Lol, comparing Kaguya to Madara huh? Just stop, once again you are making no sense. Kaguya>>>>>>>Edo Madara so you can't give her feats to him. Not to mention Kaguya didn't use Shinra Tensei, its not known what she used.

I suggest you get evidence for your claims. PS Slash is around the power level of a normal Bijuu Dama. (PS cuts a Mountain Range while Bijuu Dama completely vaporizes 1 Mountain) A normal Bijuu Dama was already tanked by Perfect Susanoo, so PS slash isn't getting through.

 

[NeutralChaos]

You made the claim and I'm asking for the evidence. Are you asking me for evidence for my question that asks you for your evidence? If so that makes no sense. Burden on proof falls on you buddy. When you can prove your claim that one person can de summon another guy's summoned animal, then we can talk.




Its not invincible. That's the number one thing people cry about when they have nothing to counter Susanoo..."hurr durr its not invincible hurr durr" News flash. It doesn't need to be invincible to tank Edo Madara's attacks.

Lol, comparing Kaguya to Madara huh? Just stop, once again you are making no sense. Kaguya>>>>>>>Edo Madara so you can't give her feats to him. Not to mention Kaguya didn't use Shinra Tensei, its not known what she used.

I suggest you get evidence for your claims. PS Slash is around the power level of a normal Bijuu Dama. (PS cuts a Mountain Range while Bijuu Dama completely vaporizes 1 Mountain) A normal Bijuu Dama was already tanked by Perfect Susanoo, so PS slash isn't getting through.

The fact is, is that if you have a contract for an animal, you can summon it. Both Madara's have a contract for Kurama, both can use him. Also, it isn't known whether or not he tanked it or not. What it looks like to me is that it was completely broke, and reinitialized into a new form. I'm also sure that Limbo can just knock around Madara, giving him no time to control Kurama. Just because he used it when he had no other eye techniques, does not mean he couldn't of used it.

 

[KingHashirama]

Hashirama's DNA has never shown to enhance the power of jutsu. It has only given more vitality, and allowed perfect use of Izanagi, since its stated you need Senju and Uchiha's genetic material to make full use of the jutsu.

"given more vitality"..... That in itself is powering a jutsu. KA a rare technique that's usage was very rare and can only be used after decade.. was shortened into a very very small time span.. all because of his dna. For chakra to increase something's vitality, it needs to power up the jutsu.

As seen, from Kurama's chakra the jutsu of other people stronger. =].

 

[lanakui8]

Kid gamer is right, EMS Madara w/ Kurama is significantly stronger than Edo madara. edo madara is incapable of using his full powers which is why he explicitly states that PS, something EMS Madara could also use

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flower tree world, mokuryu, meteors, shinra tensei, all of that is complete fodder against kyuusanoo. both meteors would be blown up by a single bijuudama or PS slash, a single bijuudama canonically blew up a battlefield of mokuton, 2 mokuryus and mokujin. shinra tensei isn't doing jack against kyuusanoo, preta could work, but then ems madara would just order the kyuubi to smash the edo madara and it'd be gg.

Alive rinnegan madara is > EMS MAdara + Kurama, but this is edo madara who's full power is PS + a bunch of stuff that are fodder compared to Madara and Hashirama's final clash at VoTe.

 

[NeutralChaos]

Kid gamer is right, EMS Madara w/ Kurama is significantly stronger than Edo madara. edo madara is incapable of using his full powers which is why he explicitly states that PS, something EMS Madara could also use

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flower tree world, mokuryu, meteors, shinra tensei, all of that is complete fodder against kyuusanoo. both meteors would be blown up by a single bijuudama or PS slash, a single bijuudama canonically blew up a battlefield of mokuton, 2 mokuryus and mokujin. shinra tensei isn't doing jack against kyuusanoo, preta could work, but then ems madara would just order the kyuubi to smash the edo madara and it'd be gg.

Alive rinnegan madara is > EMS MAdara + Kurama, but this is edo madara who's full power is PS + a bunch of stuff that are fodder compared to Madara and Hashirama's final clash at VoTe.

Kurama gets overpowered by multi-handed susano'o covered goubi. Two hands block off Kurama's arms, and then two others close his mouth, while the third pair with the swords crushes Kurama to pieces.

 

[lanakui8]

Kurama gets overpowered by multi-handed susano'o covered goubi. Two hands block off Kurama's arms, and then two others close his mouth, while the third pair with the swords crushes Kurama to pieces.

What is 'goubi', why would madara even engage such a construct up close, why doesn't kyuusanoo break him out with his PS covered tails, why doesn't kyuusanoo just use it's PS arms to cut off the goubi's arms, and what implies madara even has the ability to use a PS covered goubi?

 

[NeutralChaos]

What is 'goubi', why would madara even engage such a construct up close, why doesn't kyuusanoo break him out with his PS covered tails, why doesn't kyuusanoo just use it's PS arms to cut off the goubi's arms, and what implies madara even has the ability to use a PS covered goubi?

The goubi is a golem made of the wood style. In your scenario though, he'll just have 25 clones with susano'o take care of the tails and extra hands.

 

[lanakui8]

The goubi is a golem made of the wood style. In your scenario though, he'll just have 25 clones with susano'o take care of the tails and extra hands.

Since when does edo madara have the ability to use mokujin?
Since when does edo madara have the ability to use mokujin AND PS at the same time?
Since when does edo madara have the ability to use 25 clones using susanoo AND mokujin AND PS at the same time?
Since when can a V3 legged susanoo pin something as large and powerful as

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since when does mokujin have 6 arms?

and again, what about the two PS arms on kyuusanoo who can just cut mokujin's arms when they attempt to grab or have grabbed kurama's?
and then why is it just assumed that they even grab kurama? why can't kurama dodge and nuke?

So many unwarranted and implausible assumptions is what your argument has to cater to in order for it to be a plausible option.

 

[NeutralChaos]

Since when does edo madara have the ability to use mokujin?
Since when does edo madara have the ability to use mokujin AND PS at the same time?
Since when does edo madara have the ability to use 25 clones using susanoo AND mokujin AND PS at the same time?
Since when can a V3 legged susanoo pin something as large and powerful as

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since when does mokujin have 6 arms?

and again, what about the two PS arms on kyuusanoo who can just cut mokujin's arms when they attempt to grab or have grabbed kurama's?
and then why is it just assumed that they even grab kurama? why can't kurama dodge and nuke?

So many unwarranted and implausible assumptions is what your argument has to cater to in order for it to be a plausible option.

Mokujin, if that's even it's name, does not require sage mode, hence being a regular wood-style jutsu that Madara has seen, so can use. 25 wood clones using susano'o is not Madara's limit. He has infinite chakra, so nothing's stopping him. Each legged susano'o is almost the size of Kurama, and since the golem is of the wood-style, he can both absorb via that and his Rinnegan. Limbo knocks around Kurama anyways, or EMS Madara, not giving him a chance to properly control Kurama. Kurama's extra arms were covered in my last post, and he can't dodge because the golem is holding him.

 

[lanakui8]

Mokujin, if that's even it's name, does not require sage mode, hence being a regular wood-style jutsu that Madara has seen, so can use.

since when can madara use all of base hashirama's wood styles?

25 wood clones using susano'o is not Madara's limit. He has infinite chakra, so nothing's stopping him.

clone limits aren't just about chakra, they are about control and skill with kagebunshin. Perfect example is how naruto couldn't make more than 5 clones against pain when he had 2 gathering natural energy. Also, madara doesn't have infinite chakra, he has chakra that regenerates on the same level as his body.

Each legged susano'o is almost the size of Kurama,

In no way shape or form are

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'almost the size of

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and since the golem is of the wood-style, he can both absorb via that and his Rinnegan.

Since when can any wood-style absorb? Since when can the golem absorb? Since when can Madara use preta path while using his PS and the golem?

Limbo knocks around Kurama anyways, or EMS Madara, not giving him a chance to properly control Kurama. Kurama's extra arms were covered in my last post, and he can't dodge because the golem is holding him.

Since when can edo madara use limbo?
Since when does even SM living Madara's limbo have the power to knock around something as huge and durable as Kyuusanoo?
Kurama's extra arms weren't covered in your last point, and the golem only holds kurama IF HE DOESN'T DODGE, so why in the world would your response to the question: 'how does the golem grab kurama' be 'the golem grabs kurama after the golem has grabbed kurama'.

and i'll ask again:
since when can edo madara use mokujin and PS?
since when can edo madara use mokujin and PS and 25 susanoo clones?

 

[NeutralChaos]

since when can madara use all of base hashirama's wood styles?


clone limits aren't just about chakra, they are about control and skill with kagebunshin. Perfect example is how naruto couldn't make more than 5 clones against pain when he had 2 gathering natural energy. Also, madara doesn't have infinite chakra, he has chakra that regenerates on the same level as his body.


In no way shape or form are

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'almost the size of

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Since when can any wood-style absorb? Since when can the golem absorb? Since when can Madara use preta path while using his PS and the golem?


Since when can edo madara use limbo?
Since when does even SM living Madara's limbo have the power to knock around something as huge and durable as Kyuusanoo?
Kurama's extra arms weren't covered in your last point, and the golem only holds kurama IF HE DOESN'T DODGE, so why in the world would your response to the question: 'how does the golem grab kurama' be 'the golem grabs kurama after the golem has grabbed kurama'.

and i'll ask again:
since when can edo madara use mokujin and PS?
since when can edo madara use mokujin and PS and 25 susanoo clones?

You're using horrible logic here. Since when can Kurama in susano'o dodge? Since when was Limbo not Madara's Rinnegan technique? Since when did Limbo not knock around all nine tailed beasts? It was stated specifically that the wood-style had a special chakra absorption trait, which is why it's used to restrain tailed beasts. Edo Madara could just summon Kurama out of the susano'o and then destroy him. Stop dodging the obvious by asking stupid questions.

 

[lanakui8]

You're using horrible logic here. Since when can Kurama in susano'o dodge?
Since when was Limbo not Madara's Rinnegan technique? Since when did Limbo not knock around all nine tailed beasts?

First off, if Kurama in susanoo can't dodge, then he wouldn't be able to chase Hashirama across a bunch of mountain ranges.
Second, limbo is madara's rinnegan technique, however edo madara has never shown the ability to use it with his fake rinnegan, and him using it after being revived and as a juubi jink heavily implies that he was incapable of using it beforehand.
Third, 100% Kurama is far larger than the average tailed beast and Kyuusanoo has that kurama wrapped in PS. Not only that but madara was living which we know makes him far more powerful than an edo, and he was using sage mode.

So you do have a burden of proof for all of my 'since whens' as each and every one of them attack assertions that you make that are implied not to be possible.

It was stated specifically that the wood-style had a special chakra absorption trait, which is why it's used to restrain tailed beasts.

no it wasn't, BINDING is something that CERTAIN wood styles have. ABSORBING is something that only a few have, those few being mokuryu and yamato's mokuton giraffs.

Edo Madara could just summon Kurama out of the susano'o and then destroy him. Stop dodging the obvious by asking stupid questions.

The OP stated that EMS Madara has kurama, therefore it's assumed that Edo Madara can't use him. Not only that but we've never seen anyone summon a beast that was already summoned, and we have good reason to believe that that is not possible as a summoned beast has a link to the summoning jutsu that was used to bring it there, and therefore madara would not be able summon it without breaking the original summon first.

I'm absolutely not dodging anything, you are the one who continuously asserts things that are go directly against what the manga implies to be true.

Go back and give your reasoning as to why you believe those assertions that you brought to the table are more likely to be true than not.

 

[NeutralChaos]

First off, if Kurama in susanoo can't dodge, then he wouldn't be able to chase Hashirama across a bunch of mountain ranges.
Second, limbo is madara's rinnegan technique, however edo madara has never shown the ability to use it with his fake rinnegan, and him using it after being revived and as a juubi jink heavily implies that he was incapable of using it beforehand.
Third, 100% Kurama is far larger than the average tailed beast and Kyuusanoo has that kurama wrapped in PS. Not only that but madara was living which we know makes him far more powerful than an edo, and he was using sage mode.

So you do have a burden of proof for all of my 'since whens' as each and every one of them attack assertions that you make that are implied not to be possible.


no it wasn't, BINDING is something that CERTAIN wood styles have. ABSORBING is something that only a few have, those few being mokuryu and yamato's mokuton giraffs.


The OP stated that EMS Madara has kurama, therefore it's assumed that Edo Madara can't use him. Not only that but we've never seen anyone summon a beast that was already summoned, and we have good reason to believe that that is not possible as a summoned beast has a link to the summoning jutsu that was used to bring it there, and therefore madara would not be able summon it without breaking the original summon first.

I'm absolutely not dodging anything, you are the one who continuously asserts things that are go directly against what the manga implies to be true.

Go back and give your reasoning as to why you believe those assertions that you brought to the table are more likely to be true than not.

Assumption or not, both Madara have the same contract, so both can summon or de-summon at will, making Kurama not much of a factor here. Using your logic, I can assume Kurama covered in susano'o cannot jump higher than 20 feet or run in any direction other than the one it was summoned in, just because he haven't seen him do so. He used limbo after he was revived because he didn't have any other Rinnegan techniques because of having one eye. There should be no reason to assume that he couldn't of used Limbo, unless you use your bad logic of "since when could." Using your logic, I'll also assume that Kurama wrapped in susano'o can only use the tailed beast bomb once, which sucks for Madara.