Sasuke's Amaterasu, Kagetsuchi and Itachi's Amaterasu

[ComplexCity]

Each Enton user (Sasuke) literally exclaims "Enton" before he uses it. Itachi does not have Enton

 

[Varrah]

Each Enton user (Sasuke) literally exclaims "Enton" before he uses it. Itachi does not have Enton

As Enton is the black flames conjured by the Seishitsu Henka, Amaterasu, Itachi has Enton by virtue of being an Amaterasu user.​

 

[Vapid]

Saying that Itachi had Enton is speculation; nothing more, nothing less. He could've had Enton, but, until it's manga-confirmed, it will forever be a speculative subject.

Canon aside, I'm pretty sure that Solo God Itachi had Enton, just because he's the Solo King of the NV.

 

[BlinkST]

Saying that Itachi had Enton is speculation; nothing more, nothing less. He could've had Enton, but, until it's manga-confirmed, it will forever be a speculative subject.

Spoiler

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The black fire in of itself is Enton, therefore he has it by virtue of having Amaterasu. What he didn't have, was Kagu-Tsuchi (The power to modify the flames).

 

[Vapid]

Spoiler

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The black fire in of itself is Enton, therefore he has it by virtue of having Amaterasu. What he didn't have, was Kagu-Tsuchi (The power to modify the flames).

Enton and Enton: Kagutsuchi are essentially the same thing; one is just a variant of the other (Enton→Enton: Kagutsuchi). Enton itself is shape manipulation - something that Itachi never displayed with his usage of Amaterasu. Enton: Kagutsuchi, as well as all of the other Enton variants, are just that - variants.

Itachi could only manipulate the black flames that are Amaterasu en masse. He couldn't manipulate the shape of Amaterasu (e.g. Enton: Kagutsuchi, Enton: Yasaka Magatama, and Enton: Susanoo Kagutsuchi).

 

[BlinkST]

Enton and Enton: Kagutsuchi are essentially the same thing; one is just a variant of the other (Enton→Enton: Kagutsuchi). Enton itself is shape manipulation - something that Itachi never displayed with his usage of Amaterasu. Enton: Kagutsuchi, as well as all of the other Enton variants, are just that - variants.

Enton: Kagu-tsuchi is shape manipulation. Enton by itself is simply the black fire [Amaterasu], as Sasuke alluded to when he fought Gaara. There was no shape manipulation present.

 

[shelke]

What I have been able to fathom is that Enton is simply unfocused Amaterasu, one which can be further manipulated. Itachi hasn't displayed it, hence, it cannot be attributed to him.

 

[Varrah]

What I have been able to fathom is that Enton is simply unfocused Amaterasu, one which can be further manipulated. Itachi has displayed it, hence, it cannot be attributed to him.

Eh...Shelke?



This argument or interpretation is not structurally sound — it draws an incompatible conclusion with its premise; the claim expressed in the premise and the conclusion cannot be both true. In the case of incompatible premises, the law of non-contradiction (not both A and not A) prevents the drawing of a conclusion that is contradictory to one of the premises. The premise, then, is an improper one. The flaw in your interpretation/argument can be seen by looking carefully at its form:​

1. Since A, (premise)
   
   
2. and B, (premise)

​

Therefore, not A. (conclusion)​

Translation:​

1. Since Enton is unfocused Amaterasu that can be further manipulated, (A) (premise)
   
   
2. and Itachi has displayed it, (premise)

​

Therefore, it cannot be attribute to him [Itachi].



Since the conclusion of this particular argument/interpretation form and its first premise cannot both be true, the argument/interpretation inappropriately draws the conclusion of “not A” and is therefore structurally flawed.​

___________________________________________
​

In any matter by virtue of being a user of the Seishitsu Henka, Amaterasu, Itachi possess Enton as Amaterasu is the nature transformation responsible for necessitating or conjuring the flames of Amaterasu or Enton. By this argument/interpretation, Obito is not considered a doton user despite having used a technique of its Seishitsu Henka. [

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]— Doton Moguragakure.​

 

[shelke]

Eh...Shelke?



This argument or interpretation is not structurally sound — it draws an incompatible conclusion with its premise; the claim expressed in the premise and the conclusion cannot be both true. In the case of incompatible premises, the law of non-contradiction (not both A and not A) prevents the drawing of a conclusion that is contradictory to one of the premises. The premise, then, is an improper one. The flaw in your interpretation/argument can be seen by looking carefully at its form:​

1. Since A, (premise)
   
   
2. and B, (premise)

​

Therefore, not A. (conclusion)​

Translation:​

1. Since Enton is unfocused Amaterasu that can be further manipulated, (A) (premise)
   
   
2. and Itachi has displayed it, (premise)

​

Therefore, it cannot be attribute to him [Itachi].



Since the conclusion of this particular argument/interpretation form and its first premise cannot both be true, the argument/interpretation inappropriately draws the conclusion of “not A” and is therefore structurally flawed.​

___________________________________________
​

In any matter by virtue of being a user of the Seishitsu Henka, Amaterasu, Itachi possess Enton as Amaterasu is the nature transformation responsible for necessitating or conjuring the flames of Amaterasu or Enton. By this argument/interpretation, Obito is not considered a doton user despite having used a technique of its Seishitsu Henka. [

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]​

I kinda forgot to turn 'has' into 'hasn't'. So that negative is added now. Just a silly error. You should have worked it out. Anyhow, now that it's rectified, that is where I stand. He hasn't displayed it, so he doesn't posses it.

 

[Varrah]

I kinda forgot to turn 'has' into 'hasn't'. So that negative is added now. Just a silly error. You should have worked it out.

You could have rewritten it.

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​

Anyhow, now that it's rectified, that is where I stand. He hasn't displayed it, so he doesn't posses it.

But you’d be wrong, Itachi has displayed Enton through using its Seishitsu Henka (Nature Transformation), Amaterasu, Again, if were are to subscribe to your interpretation/argument than Obito is not considered a doton user despite using a technique which utilizes its Seishitsu Henka. Again—[

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]—Click ​

 

[shelke]

You could have rewritten it.

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​

But you’d be wrong, Enton has displayed Enton through using its Seishitsu Henka (Nature Transformation), Amaterasu, Again, if were are to subscribe to your interpretation/argument than Obito is not considered a doton user despite using a technique which utilizes its Seishitsu Henka. Again—[

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]—Click ​

Load-shedding stopped me.

It doesn't matter. I have never seen Itachi manipulate Amaterasu's unfocused flame. Not even once. Only Sasuke has displayed that ability. A better example would be how he simply threw an Enton Flame sitting on top of his rib-cage Susano'o at Gaara. That is all there is to it.

 

[Turson]

Was Itachi able to give some shape to his Amaterasu? No? Then sorry, but the ability to put off the flames is not enough to qualify it as Enton.

 

[Niwdog]

You could have rewritten it.

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​

But you’d be wrong, Enton has displayed Enton through using its Seishitsu Henka (Nature Transformation), Amaterasu, Again, if were are to subscribe to your interpretation/argument than Obito is not considered a doton user despite using a technique which utilizes its Seishitsu Henka. Again—[

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]—Click ​

It's like people can't read *smh*

 

[Varrah]

Load-shedding stopped me.

Alright…
​

It doesn't matter. I have never seen Itachi manipulate Amaterasu's unfocused flame. Not even once. Only Sasuke has displayed that ability.

Ah—this is the problem is: you believe the manipulation of Amaterasu’s flame is Enton. This is wrong. Enton is the flame of Amaterasu

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, Shelke; this is verified only this page. The ability to manipulate Amaterasu’s flame (and extinguish it), which is Enton, is called Kagutsuchi. Kagutsuchi is Sasuke’s right eye’s dōryoku or Sasuke’s right Mangekyō Sharingan power while Sasuke’s left eye’s dōryoku or Mangekyō Sharingan power is Amaterasu; and as such, Itachi does not have Kagutsuchi, possessing Tsukuyomi in its steed.


Basically, you believe the manipulation of Amaterasu's flames to be Enton. This interpretation is wrong. The manipulation (and extinguishing) of Amaterasu's flames is Kagutsuchi. The flames of Amaterasu are Enton. Enton is the chakra nature of the Seishitsu Henka, Amaterasu, in the exact matter to how the Seishitsu Henka of the Fūton: Rasengan is Fūton. ​

A better example would be how he simply threw an Enton Flame sitting on top of his rib-cage Susano'o at Gaara. That is all there is to it.

This example serves my point well: Sasuke’s throws the flames of Amaterasu resting upon Susanoō at Gaara and calls it

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. On the succeeding page, Amaterasu’s flames, which we now know to be Enton, are floating

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Sasuke. The

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Enton Sasuke threw at Gaara came from the ball of Enton

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Sasuke manipulated by Kagutsuchi. This is validated by the force Enton has during its impact with Gaara’s sand.


Again, Enton is the flames of Amaterasu. Amaterasu is the Seishitsu Henka or Nature Transformation responsible for conjuring Enton; therefore, Amaterasu's users have Enton by virtue of possessing the Seishitsu Henka responsible for its existence. By rejecting this, you are rejecting every Seishitsu Henka or Nature Transformation responsible for conjuring an element. For example, in your interpretation, Madara nor Sasuke cannot be considered Katon users because the flames of Katon cannot be regarded as fire, despite the Seishitsu Henka, Katon, altering the properties and characteristics of chakra into the disposition of fire, and Madara and Sasuke using several techniques from the Seishitsu Henka.​

 

[shelke]

Alright…
​

Ah—this is the problem is: you believe the manipulation of Amaterasu’s flame is Enton. This is wrong. Enton is the flame of Amaterasu, Shelke; this is verified only this page. The ability to manipulate Amaterasu’s flame (and extinguish it), which is Enton, is called Kagutsuchi. Kagutsuchi is Sasuke’s right eye’s dōryoku or Sasuke’s right Mangekyō Sharingan power while Sasuke’s left eye’s dōryoku or Mangekyō Sharingan power is Amaterasu; and as such, Itachi does not have Kagutsuchi, possessing Tsukuyomi in its steed. ​

This example serves my point well: Sasuke’s throws the flames of Amaterasu resting upon Susanoō at Gaara and calls it

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. On the succeeding page, Amaterasu’s flames, which we now know to be Enton, are floating

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Sasuke. The

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Enton Sasuke threw at Gaara came from the ball of Enton

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Sasuke manipulated by Kagutsuchi. This is validated by the force Enton has during its impact with Gaara’s sand.


Again, Enton is the flames of Amaterasu. Amaterasu is the Seishitsu Henka or Nature Transformation responsible for conjuring Enton; therefore, Amaterasu's users have Enton by virtue of possessing the Seishitsu Henka responsible for its existence. By rejecting this, you are rejecting every Seishitsu Henka or Nature Transformation responsible for conjuring an element. For example, in your interpretation, Madara nor Sasuke cannot be considered Katon users because the flames of Katon cannot be regarded as fire, despite the Seishitsu Henka Katon altering the properties and charateristics of chakra into the disposition of fire, and using several techniques of the Seishitsu Henka.​

I never once said that flame manipulation is Enton. You are more than welcome to pick that up from my posts. I said, unfocused flame appears to be Enton and it's this flame that is most prone to manipulation, and only Sasuke has shown this ability. Since Itachi hasn't, he is incapable of doing so.

That was Enton, again, a non-focused flame. Amaterasu has been known to spread at an alarming rate and eat away at the chakra almost instantly, Enton doesn't, as it's unfocused. Which is why it burns slowly. A good example would be Raikage's arm or the Samurai Armour. That was Enton.

I am not going to get into any intricacy, when the difference between Enton and Amaterasu - from what I can gather and what the manga has shown - is focused and unfocused. Enton is Amaterasu, simply unfocused.

 

[Troyg39]

Was Itachi able to give some shape to his Amaterasu? No? Then sorry, but the ability to put off the flames is not enough to qualify it as Enton.

I never once said that flame manipulation is Enton. You are more than welcome to pick that up from my posts. I said, unfocused flame appears to be Enton and it's this flame that is most prone to manipulation, and only Sasuke has shown this ability. Since Itachi hasn't, he is incapable of doing so.

That was Enton, again, a non-focused flame. Amaterasu has been known to spread at an alarming rate and eat away at the chakra almost instantly, Enton doesn't, as it's unfocused. Which is why it burns slowly. A good example would be Raikage's arm or the Samurai Armour. That was Enton.

I am not going to get into any intricacy, when the difference between Enton and Amaterasu - from what I can gather and what the manga has shown - is focused and unfocused. Enton is Amaterasu, simply unfocused.

Enton by it's given definition is simple manipulation of Amaterasu, not specific to shape transformation. I guess they key question here is "is shape the only way to manipulate Amaterasu?"

Technically, If Amaterasu is Nature transformation, then every time you use Amaterasu, you are manipulating it via effecting it's nature. The same way that with shape transfromation, you are effecting it via effecting it's shape.

That is why every Amaterasu user has Enton. You have to manipulate Amaterasu's nature via nature transformation to even use it.

Which I guess explains why Enton:Kagutsuchi has a separate name. When you start to manipulate it's shape, you are using a different method of manipulation, thus a different form of Enton.

I wasn't considering this before Varrah's post, but nature transformation counts just as much towards manipulating chakra as shape transformation does. So Itachi was the first to show us Enton simply by showing us Amaterasu

 

[Varrah]

I never once said that flame manipulation is Enton.

…I know, I am saying that because you believe that an unfocused flame is Enton; and because that flames is prone to manipulation, that this is not so. Kagutsuchi is the act of manipulating and extinguishing Enton. ​

I said, unfocused flame appears to be Enton and it's this flame that is most prone to manipulation, and only Sasuke has shown this ability. Since Itachi hasn't, he is incapable of doing so.

Again, I know—I take fallibility that this specific instance arose from my poor conveyance of choice of words. ​

That was Enton, again, a non-focused flame. Amaterasu has been known to spread at an alarming rate and eat away at the chakra almost instantly, Enton doesn't, as it's unfocused. Which is why it burns slowly. A good example would be Raikage's arm or the Samurai Armour. That was Enton.

I am not going to get into any intricacy, when the difference between Enton and Amaterasu - from what I can gather and what the manga has shown - is focused and unfocused. Enton is Amaterasu, simply unfocused.

Our difference of opinion springs from you adhering to the notion that Enton is an unfocused Amaterasu flame.


Of this interpretation, I can only ask you to further explain to me what is an unfocused flame, and why Enton is an unfocused flame of Amaterasu, with the retort that, Enton, is by definition, the chakra nature of Amaterasu with Amaterasu acting as the Seishitsu Henka (that creates shapeless Enton concentrically) in the exact matter to how Fūton is the chakra nature and Seishitsu Henka of Fūton: Rasengan.



Ultimately, we both believe Enton to be Amaterasu’s flame; however, you believe this flame must be unfocused to be considered Enton. I am asking you what is an unfocused flame; and how can it be considered Enton, when by definition, is the

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of Amaterasu, and Amaterasu is the

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ignition of

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Enton?​

 

[TRE MERCER]

This thread is bullshit.

 

[shelke]

…I know, I am saying that because you believe that an unfocused flame is Enton; and because that flames is prone to manipulation, that this is not so. Kagutsuchi is the act of manipulating and extinguishing Enton. ​

Again, I know—I take fallibility that this specific instance arose from my poor conveyance of choice of words. ​

Our difference of opinion springs from you adhering to the notion that Enton is an unfocused Amaterasu flame.


Of this interpretation, I can only ask you to further explain to me what is an unfocused flame, and why Enton is an unfocused flame of Amaterasu, with the retort that, Enton, is by definition, the chakra nature of Amaterasu with Amaterasu acting as the Seishitsu Henka (that creates shapeless Enton concentrically) in the exact matter to how Fūton is the chakra nature and Seishitsu Henka of Fūton: Rasengan.

Ultimately, we both believe Enton to be Amaterasu’s flame; however, you believe this flame must be unfocused to be considered Enton. I am asking you what is an unfocused flame; and how can it be considered Enton, when by definition, is the

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of Amaterasu, and Amaterasu is the

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ignition of

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Enton?​

I said Enton is MOST prone to manipulation, I didn't say it's the only thing that can be manipulated.

An unfocused flame would be the one when it's simply made and the eye is not concentrated upon it any longer to summon more flames and make the burning process faster. An example: When Sasuke tried to make an Amterasu flame appear on Raikage, he missed due to his out-of-focus line of sight, and guess what happened? The flame simply appeared close to the next target in his line of sight.

But before it could spread and Sasuke could actually focus or concentrate his MS on it, he looked away. That flame simply latched onto the armour and started to burn very very slowly. That is Enton. I don't think I can explain it any better than this.