[THEORY] Kaguya's black goo and advisor is dat boss Hamura

[Mateush]

Introduction:

Posted this on another forum and none agree with me. So I'm really curious to see if someone here might have the same idea. For example Hamura is the real final villain and will betray Kaguya in a tragic way... or another possibility is they are cooperating and was trying to restore both Hamura and Hagoromo to their likes but Hamura (the boss) changed his mind and convinced Kaguya to kill them instead. Let's start with this theory now, it's about same but with a few updates and changes. It's more refined now.

Eat popcorn and enjoy

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After reading carefully this chapter and previous chapters a few times in a row. I started to suspect that he actually is Hamura.

I will start with images and explain them as possible hints or speculations that he actually is Hamura using goo as vessel.

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1. Let's start with this one. First notice his eyes and teeth, also voice completely changed. More wise one now, as if he was magically revived. Those eyes could be Byakugan and teeth reminds these seven swordsmens ..... Then he said "for that time", for what? His and Kaguya's complete revival, perhaps? Nope, I don't think so. It's because Kaguya is the fool one and BZ (Hamura) is the one guiding her

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2. First notice he said "I'm Kaguya's child".... And there's the possible hint about he knew all this, because he is Hamura and his brother is Hagoromo. Theirs power is whole another level lol.

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3. "We were born" is nothing but false!!! According to takL's translation: "Black zetsu: However immediately before the sealing I was delivered in order that Mother would return someday. "

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4. Even this is nothing but lies. Just read what Hagoromo said in the the second image below. He witnessed his little damn world for thousands years, he should have noticed if something happened with his tablet, perhaps? By the way if he is Hamura, he could be capable of manipulating the tablet regardless of his highest form of Byakugan.

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5. Most probably false too.... Why "most probably" ? Because it's from 3 sources who translated quite accurately takL's another translation: "Black zetsu: ...like I said earlier...Mother was sealed by her own child (/ren) in the past and even another older translation from same takL didn't clarify this one but VIZ tells us it was Hagoromo who did the sealing.

By the way, Why is it so damn difficult to translate this one? Because Kishi wants to mislead.

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6. He understimates Hagoromo a lot. He is another arrogant fool one like Madara was, but he (Hamura) is more calm and fairly intelligent.

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7. Hagoromo appears to tell news about Kaguya and Hamura. And eventually another power-up or hints about weaknesses.

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Addiotional speculations:

The weapon/staff Hamura wore is a trident:

逆賊を除く. Overcomes enemies. The three-prongs symbolize the “Three Jewels” (Sanbō 三宝), which are the Buddha, the Dharma (Buddhist law), and the Sangha (community of Buddhist believers). The trident also represents triumph over ignorance. In some traditions, the three-pronged trident also symbolizes the destruction of the three poisons (greed, anger, and ignorance.) In Tibetan Wheel-of-Life Tanka paintings, the three poisons are represented by three animals (a pig, a snake, and a rooster). The three are depicted at the center of the Tanka biting each others tails -- to show that these evils are inseparably connected. Numerous deities in Japan hold a trident. In addition to the 1000-Armed Kannon, other deities include Tamonten (Buddhist Protector of the North), Bishamonten (God of War), Ishanaten (aka Daijizaiten; one of the 12 Deva and protector of the Northeast quarter), Daiitoku Myō-ō (one of the Five Wisdom Kings), Shōmen Kongō (who protects against diseases caused by demons), Sendan Kendatsuba (Buddhist protector of children in Japan), and Anira Taishō (one of 12 Generals serving Yakushi Nyorai (the Medicine Buddha).

I tend to believe it's the opposite actually. Kishi often tends to ignore to write exactly same story about tools, jutsu names and their functions. He likes to screw up mythologies a bit to fit into his story about Naruto, lol.

And another reason why I believe Hamura is dangerous is: We don't need another new god on higher level than Hagoromo himself or something like that to suddenly appear during the climax. We already have two saviors now, that's Naruto and Sasuke.

But we have to know more about him in any way, right? It might be Kaguya's little sweet black goo (empty shell of Hamura) or something else different lol. For example it might be a hint about Hagoromo's return to four Hokages to reveal about the whole true. That Hamura either is real villain and will overtake Kaguya, or they will cooperate.

Also notice this panel, Kaguya is looking at Sasuke as Hamura. And what is Sasuke's personality? He is cold and rude, but slighty changed after everything that has happened to him. Hamura is in the same stage as when Sasuke was a psycho, except he is much stronger.

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That's all I want to share you with. (Just for fun) If you have watched the movie Matrix, then my hypothesis is that in following order below:

Shinju = Architect
Kaguya = The Machine
Hamura = Smith
Hagoromo = Morpheus?
Gamamaru = Oracle
Naruto + Sasuke = Neo

 

[Gitch]

You smoking good stuff huh ?

 

[I'm stupid real stupid]

Lets wait and see what Kishi has in store for us

 

[Mateush]

You smoking good stuff huh ?

I don't smoke. In the past yeah. :eww: By the way, I doubt you read all it because of the timeframe. Go away or read and tell your reasons.

 

[Rabbit Teth]

I like most of it but the bit that it falls apart on for me is that BZ claims he was born right before the sealing. Hamura and Hagoromo were both fully grown when they fought and presumably sealed the Juubi. So Hamura can't really be BZ in the traditional sense.

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I don't really buy that BZ needed to lie to Naruto and Sasuke while he was taking their chakra. It's the typical bad guy explains plan to the good guys just as he thinks he has them where he wants them scenario.

I do think that BZ could be Kaguya's Juubi chakra that was sealed inside Hamura. That way Hamura would effectively be BZ's dad or an aspect of BZ as Hagoromo is to the Bijuu. Bit Greek in that sense but what the hey.

I go along with your theory on Hamura's staff. I agree that Hamura might end up carrying a trident. If so it'll probably be called Vajra (the traditional weapon carried by Indra in the various religions and shown a couple of times in the manga), control lightning and look like this:

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Vajra is a trident seen in the background here (sometimes it's a trident sometimes it looks more like a mace - both are traditional representations of Indra's weapon)

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Anyway, nice read, will wait and see how much of it is accurate.

 

[WalksInShadows]

i don't think so for 4 reasons really:

- the context BZ was saying it was her child was more likely in a figurative sense because it was her creation

- it's already mentioned Hamura as being a separate person

- the aforementioned person was already mentioned along with Hagoromo as being disloyal to their mother by sealing her up, and BZ has spent an eternity and a half trying to resurrect her. It doesn't match up to me

- if something like that happened to Hamura, i believe Hagoromo would've mentioned it happening or had some suspicion about it.

 

[Mateush]

I like most of it but the bit that it falls apart on for me is that BZ claims he was born right before the sealing. Hamura and Hagoromo were both fully grown when they fought and presumably sealed the Juubi. So Hamura can't really be BZ in the traditional sense.

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I don't really buy that BZ needed to lie to Naruto and Sasuke while he was taking their chakra. It's the typical bad guy explains plan to the good guys just as he thinks he has them where he wants them scenario.

I do think that BZ could be Kaguya's Juubi chakra that was sealed inside Hamura. That way Hamura would effectively be BZ's dad or an aspect of BZ as Hagoromo is to the Bijuu. Bit Greek in that sense but what the hey.

I go along with your theory on Hamura's staff. I agree that Hamura might end up carrying a trident. If so it'll probably be called Vajra (the traditional weapon carried by Indra in the various religions and shown a couple of times in the manga), control lightning and look like this:

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Vajra is a trident seen in the background here (sometimes it's a trident sometimes it looks more like a mace - both are traditional representations of Indra's weapon)

You must be registered for see links

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Anyway, nice read, will wait and see how much of it is accurate.

Could be wrong translation. The correct one should be: "Black zetsu: However immediately before the sealing I was delivered in order that Mother would return someday. "

 

[kageking]

Nuh uh. Negative.

 

[Mateush]

Nuh uh. Negative.

Okay, why do you think so?

 

[Shinato]

You've made a decent enough theory here, which is rare to see these days. However, it comes off as only half done to me, as you are lacking something. You have facts to back-up your claim, however you lack the logic to back it up with. A theory is made up by logic and views on facts. I'll break down the parts that makes no logical sense to me. 1. Staff of Hamura Spoiler You must be registered for see images Hamura's staff seems to take the shape of a T, like a flat staff, a straight line. However it appears to have two orbs or objects on it, which makes it look like a small trident. Yet it lacks the characteristics of any of the known tridents in mythology. Neither Madara, nor Obito gained this design for their staves, as it was most likely not known to them at all. I am also unable to find any mythology object that looks alike it, as well as I cannot find something that looks like the Crescent Moon staff which makes up half of Hagoromo's and the whole of Madara's staff. This may be because Kishi didn't base these two of any known object in the world, but rather based them of an ideal. The Khakkhara was the inspiration for Obito's and the "top" part of Hagoromo's staff. It's main shape is a full circle, while the other side has a partial one. This is most likely to symbolize Yin and Yang as the Moon and Sun. If this is the case then Kishi made the Moon part up himself to compliment for the Yang ideal part. This may be the case with Hamura's staff as well, as a straight line would fit Hamura's ideal personality. Hamura was most likely a clam and logical individual, much as Sasuke as we saw he and Hagoromo standing next to each other in the past. Doing that, Hagoromo looked as if he was angry with something or someone, most likely the Juubi and Kaguya. While Hamura had a blank look on his face like he didn't even care that much. (Again, much like Sasuke.) 2. Change in Black Zetsu Spoiler You must be registered for see images Sasuke commented that Black Zetsu has changed in his character, how he speaks and in general how he feels. He is most likely more calm now that he is with his "mother" and his work is almost finished, this is probably why he comes off differently now. You are stating that his voice changed to a more wise voice, which is pure guessing as you haven't heard his voice. We know that his old voice was old and somewhat mechanic, while I think his new one is lighter and more calm, which is why Sasuke noted the change. Black Zetsu is wise, no way going around that, but has lived for a long time and seen a lot which is why he knows so much. Black Zetsu isn't guiding Kaguya, he is trying to convince her to ignore absorbing Sasuke and Naruto's chakra as he claims that they already have enough to fulfil their plan. This means that Kaguya is has a emotional reason to wish to absorb their chakra, as objectively they don't need it. She also admits that Black Zetsu is correct after some thinking, further proving that she is indeed emotionally conflicted over something. 3. The Sealing of the Juubi Spoiler You must be registered for see images The Viz translation of this page says that both Hamura and Hagoromo preformed the sealing to seal the Juubi within Hagoromo. Which is probably how Hamura died, which is also why people are theorizing that the Uzumaki originates from him as well. If he did indeed help with the sealing of the Juubi then he wouldn't wish for its return and not for Kaguya's return, unless something changed. Black Zetsu states that Hagoromo never knew about the Juubi being Kaguya's will and such, he also states that he was "born" when the Gedo was sealed within the moon. There are two fully logical ways Hamura can be Black Zetsu after this. The first being that Hamura did die after the sealing, but his body remained, Kaguya could have infused her will into his dead body and created Black Zetsu from that. (Though I think that this is less likely.) The second possible idea is that right before Hamura died, he learned the truth about the Juubi and his mother and because of that he had a change of heart. He regretted what he had done with his mother and with his dying wish he sealed his will within his dead body and became Black Zetsu, a will that wishes for his mother's ideals. (This is more likely.) The reason this is likely is that Hamura resembles Sasuke is several ways. We know that Sasuke has done everything he has because of his love for his family, clan and brother. Hamura was probably alot like that when it came to Hagoromo and Kaguya as well, and if he did find out the truth then he may have picked his mother over his brother.

 

[Mateush]

Kyuketsuki

Well done, I like your way of explaining things. The truth is I don't lack logic, but I do suck when it comes to write in English and the ability to express them into well written words. My knowledge of the language English mostly comes from self-taught, not from school. Most of memories I learned from primary school was erased, because of a brain damage and drugs.

EDITED:
About Black Zetsu's decision to kill them and convinced Kaguya to do it IS manipulative but also logical in a cold way. Kaguya has feelings about Hagoromo and Hamura, she really wanted their chakra. But BZ just says screw it and kill them. Erased from existence and their chakra disappears. It's against Kaguya's feelings about Naruto and Sasuke, particular the chakra they are using.

Neo BZ isn't very emotional as it seems.
Kaguya somewhat is emotional.

Btw remember that everything BZ talks or thinks about most likely is shared with Kaguya's mind. If he indeed is evil, then he must think kinda same as Kaguya's way of thinking. Otherwise Kaguya would notice something is wrong.

 

[Waindo]

Go read my prediction. I written BZ as Hamura's sealing vessel.

 

[Mateush]

Go read my prediction. I written BZ as Hamura's sealing vessel.

Done. It also is a interesting idea you got

 

[Kronnic]

Hell nuh brah... Did not read to know that you are wrong..
Even BZ said that Kaguya created him right before Hago and Hamura sealed her..
So if BZ said was created before Hago and Hamu sealed Kaguya, how the hell can BZ be Hamu?

 

[Mateush]

Hell nuh brah... Did not read to know that you are wrong..
Even BZ said that Kaguya created him right before Hago and Hamura sealed her..
So if BZ said was created before Hago and Hamu sealed Kaguya, how the hell can BZ be Hamu?

Then you are arrogant, sadly. Why? Because I wrote the more accurate translation: "Black zetsu: However immediately before the sealing I was delivered in order that Mother would return someday. ". We don't know for sure what Hamura was trying to do.

By the way, most likely only Hagoromo sealed the monster inside his body. Why? Read this thread if you want. Reported your post.

edited: Even Hagoromo didn't want to talk about Hamura so much for some reason. And perhaps he mentioned him in the tablet too, but BZ rewrote the tablet which mostly is about only Hagoromo himself Kaguya and BZ wants to hide the info about Hamura for some reason (the tablet). Even Hagoromo when he met Naruto and Sasuke.

 

[Rabbit Teth]

It's possible, please do write a theory about it if you could

Done - I wrote a theory back when 670 came out and a lot of it stands up well today. I've updated the rest if you want to check it out. Let me know what you think.

 

[Angelic.]

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not sure if this is hago or hamura but theyre in the juubis maw so maybe hamura sealed himself and juubi inside hago? if bz is hamuras will it came out after.

 

[Mateush]

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not sure if this is hago or hamura but theyre in the juubis maw so maybe hamura sealed himself and juubi inside hago? if bz is hamuras will it came out after.

Nice catch, but the question is did Madara know about what Hagoromo looked like? I doubt it. Perhaps he just used some jutsu whom Zetsu taught him to represent symbolism of "Hagoromo" and Juubi like this one. That's if he actually is Hamura.

Look at the staff. Compare it with Hagoromo's. Hamura's staff is closer to its look.

Well, who knows. However, thanks for sharing this panel which I forgot about.

 

[Angelic.]

i wonder where madara saw the heiroglyphs of that and of kaguya eating the fruit? thats not on the stone tablet unless its like a vision it gives the reader..maybe a temple?

 

[Mateush]

i wonder where madara saw the heiroglyphs of that and of kaguya eating the fruit? thats not on the stone tablet unless its like a vision it gives the reader..maybe a temple?

Yeah. And I just realised about this one:

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Both used their staffs in the left hand only. But sometimes Hagoromo even uses his staff in right hand as well, so this doesn't matter or does it? Because of Hamura inside Juubi+Kaguya, while his left hand did some sort of sealing technique?

But the staff (trident or something like that) Hamura used looks more like it compared with Hagoromo's with six rings.