KidGamer65
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The Fuuton would push it in one direction, towards where the Fuuton is being shot. It wouldn't shoot it everywhere.
[VS] Mei VS Old Hiruzen
- Thread starter Icelerate
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Mei takes this without preferred location.
First of all, Hiruzen's speed means nothing. Mei has shown to cross enough distance to block Madara's Katon. She wad able to intercept black Zetsu, a sensor with a blitz. With her massive AOE of Suiton, all of Hiruzen's Katon will be blocked effortlessly. Her Yoton will melt all of his defences. What is left, is for her to cover the whole area via boil mist that pretty much boils all of Hiruzen to dust. The Jutsu was melting Susanoo's ribcage.
It's a low diff.
First of all, Hiruzen's speed means nothing. Mei has shown to cross enough distance to block Madara's Katon. She wad able to intercept black Zetsu, a sensor with a blitz. With her massive AOE of Suiton, all of Hiruzen's Katon will be blocked effortlessly. Her Yoton will melt all of his defences. What is left, is for her to cover the whole area via boil mist that pretty much boils all of Hiruzen to dust. The Jutsu was melting Susanoo's ribcage.
It's a low diff.
The one the juubi was locked in was the Red Sun Barrier which was a hokage level barrier
The one the was used for this battle is the one the sound four created. It is a lot weaker which is why orochimaru instructed them to make 2.
Dęvîa Puęrî
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super yang
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Full knowledge? Hiruzen wins, mid diff.
Katon fuu'ton combo solos mist/acid/water & Lava
Enma staff + bunshin blitz works too
Katon fuu'ton combo solos mist/acid/water & Lava
Enma staff + bunshin blitz works too
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@Prince Charles
The same Earth attack he used to counter Spiral Zetsu Buddha attack.
@Touken
Hahah! Your asking me to provide evidence which I have already given you. Sasuke versus Deidara is the perfect example. I still have seen no counter to my argument though. All everyone says is that it can't happen but don't explain why it can't. Either you form an argument to counter mine or submit to and accept that my premise is correct.
@Volk
Yes. They are no exceptions. I have explained this in too many threads to count already. I have been talking about this for a while and since no one has ever countered it probably means they can't. It makes no sense that only Deidara KKG can be neutralized this way. You have it a little wrong though so let me break it down to you.
Storm style can be neutralized by Wind because Wind is strong versus lightning but not weak to water. Earth would not be able to neutralize it because even though earth beats water, storm is also composed of lightning which beats earth. It has to be an element strong versus 1 but not weak to the second.
Wood can be neutralized by lightning an element strong versus earth and not weak to water.
Gaara and his daddy's magnet style is earth plus some unknown element. It can be neutralized by lightning because the only attacks to ever pierce his sand was Chidori and Third Raikages Hell Stab when he freed himself from Gaara restraints in the war arc.
Dust style can't be neutralized because its made up of 3 elements that all counter the remaining 2 somehow. Only counter balancing can stop it and the user would have to shoot fire wind and earth blasts to counter balance each nature its composed of to parry the attack.
The same Earth attack he used to counter Spiral Zetsu Buddha attack.
@Touken
Hahah! Your asking me to provide evidence which I have already given you. Sasuke versus Deidara is the perfect example. I still have seen no counter to my argument though. All everyone says is that it can't happen but don't explain why it can't. Either you form an argument to counter mine or submit to and accept that my premise is correct.
@Volk
Yes. They are no exceptions. I have explained this in too many threads to count already. I have been talking about this for a while and since no one has ever countered it probably means they can't. It makes no sense that only Deidara KKG can be neutralized this way. You have it a little wrong though so let me break it down to you.
Storm style can be neutralized by Wind because Wind is strong versus lightning but not weak to water. Earth would not be able to neutralize it because even though earth beats water, storm is also composed of lightning which beats earth. It has to be an element strong versus 1 but not weak to the second.
Wood can be neutralized by lightning an element strong versus earth and not weak to water.
Gaara and his daddy's magnet style is earth plus some unknown element. It can be neutralized by lightning because the only attacks to ever pierce his sand was Chidori and Third Raikages Hell Stab when he freed himself from Gaara restraints in the war arc.
Dust style can't be neutralized because its made up of 3 elements that all counter the remaining 2 somehow. Only counter balancing can stop it and the user would have to shoot fire wind and earth blasts to counter balance each nature its composed of to parry the attack.
This proves either of 2 things. That its range is big and melting speed is good OR its range is smaller (but still times bigger than the sealed room Mei and Sasuke fought in) and melting speed is way faster. Moreover, keep in mind, Mei was always canonically restricted in using her Futton. We don't know how big is its AoE, since she always has to watch out not to hurt her allies.
For some reason I thought intel was 0 ;o But it still doesn't change the fact that a single Futton 'touch' makes clones poof.
Nope. Hiruzen got a massive chakra boost in his Edo Form, which was most likely an asspul to make him somewhat on par with other Hokage. After Hiruzen had used his weak-ass Katon and Doton wall, Orochimaru commented that he had never seen him strain and pant so much. He was exhausted to an extent, where he couldn't even use 1(!) Kage Bunshin as a diversion or a fighting tool. But in Edo body he managed to split his chakra in 5 and use 5 (times times stronger than what he showed in P1) elemental jutsu simultaneously. So there was no time for Edo regeneration to kick in.
So obviously, you're right about power scaling, but it doesn't change the fact that old alive Hiruzen ISN'T capable of doing what he did in Edo body.
This example is irrelevant since it was while Sasuke was creating the flames (if it makes any sense...). For some unknown reason, while using jutsu and creating an element in the first place, no one is damaged by it. Ninja spit fire from their mouth, create Chidori, Raikiri without harm to their bodies etc. But after jutsu makes its impact, it damages even the user (look at the example I posted in my previous post). So Mei obviously isn't getting harmed while spitting out her Youton just like Hiruzen isn't getting harmed while spitting out his Katon. BUT Mei showed she could tank lava on her skin even AFTER it'd been used.
And I'll repeat once again. I don't know how it works, but somehow it does. But it obviously will never be explained in detail, since to Kishi, Mei was the most irrelevant Kage.
Obviously getting smashed against the ground causes more damage than getting hit, but it's your example with an apple and a hammer that is completely irrelevant. Ninja are obviously more resistant than normal humans, but normal hits are dangerous too. Look at Rock Lee's fights. If it hadn't been for Sand Armor in Gaara's case, he'd have gotten demolished. Same with Sakura's Hyakugou-empowered punch. It killed Juubi offsprings despite not having them cornered n the ground.
It's the same thing as with Mei's temperature resistance. She clearly has a unique body structure.
This is a good battle but I believe Mei ultimate wins(due to it being old hiruzen).
doton vs suiton
Hiruzen's most important element, during this match, is doton because it is superior to suiton. With this elemental advantage and the scale hiruzen is capable of bringing it to, hiruzen is able to comfortable defend himself from mei's suiton. Mei won't be able to take this battle too easily. In fact, she will be at a significant disadvantage
hidden mist
Mei's hidden mist will be completely ineffective during this match as hiruzen's able to track his opponents through a sense of smell. Using that, he can comfortably track what mei's doing in mist and, in fact, he could use the mist to his advantage. Once mei executes hidden mist, she would eventually realize that it's more a disadvantage for her than hiruzen and would ultimately release it.
CQC
Using this in an AoE is what can tip this battle into mei's favor. During the battle with orochimaru, we learnt that the kusanagi could hurt enma, in pole form. Now, kusanagi is just a sharp sword so, if a sword can injure enma, concrete dissolving acid should equally hurt him. Of course, it won't eat him away instantly, but it will sting and burn. While this jutsu is up, enma will be reluctant to enter that danger zone, especially for prolonged periods. Any quick strikes enma attempts could be easily dodged by mei - it's hiruzen's prolonged taijutsu which will be difficult.
The acid also serves the purpose of keeping hiruzen at bay and outside of CQC because, let's be honest, he'd pretty much smash her in CQC. Enma CQC is one of the deadliest things for mei in this battle.
Lastly, the acid also serves the purpose of keeping any shadow clones out. Any clones hiruzen sends in is guaranteed to die. Due to his limited chakra reserves, using a strategy like that is counter productive.
Assuming Hiruzen made it into CQC before mei set up her boil release, the fact that mei breathes out acid and spits lava will eventually push hiruzen back, if not to at least get a breather, at which point mei can set up her defences.
tl;dr; boil release: skill mist jutsu is perfect for keep hiruzen at mid-long range
mid/long range
due to the acid mist, this battle would now take place at a distance. That means it's mei's suiton/lava style vs hiruzens elemental jutsu. What wins it for mei is the fact that hiruzen can't through out too many jutsu. At these ranges, mei's at quick a disadvantage. Hiruzen's doton jutsu can block both her lava and suiton while he can use earth jutsu under her feet, raiton jutsu, water jutsu, etc to pummel her with attacks. Mei will mostly be on the defensive at this point but that's fine because she's also capable of blocking what hiruzen throws at her. Hiruzen's best bet will be to summon shadow clones and toss attacks at mei from multiple directions but if that attack misses it's over for him.
EDIT: If hiruzen plays his cards right and out smarts mei(really depends on mei's intelligence), he can pull off a win but his chakra reserves really crutches him in a match where mei can control at what distance it occurs.
doton vs suiton
Hiruzen's most important element, during this match, is doton because it is superior to suiton. With this elemental advantage and the scale hiruzen is capable of bringing it to, hiruzen is able to comfortable defend himself from mei's suiton. Mei won't be able to take this battle too easily. In fact, she will be at a significant disadvantage
hidden mist
Mei's hidden mist will be completely ineffective during this match as hiruzen's able to track his opponents through a sense of smell. Using that, he can comfortably track what mei's doing in mist and, in fact, he could use the mist to his advantage. Once mei executes hidden mist, she would eventually realize that it's more a disadvantage for her than hiruzen and would ultimately release it.
CQC
Using this in an AoE is what can tip this battle into mei's favor. During the battle with orochimaru, we learnt that the kusanagi could hurt enma, in pole form. Now, kusanagi is just a sharp sword so, if a sword can injure enma, concrete dissolving acid should equally hurt him. Of course, it won't eat him away instantly, but it will sting and burn. While this jutsu is up, enma will be reluctant to enter that danger zone, especially for prolonged periods. Any quick strikes enma attempts could be easily dodged by mei - it's hiruzen's prolonged taijutsu which will be difficult.
The acid also serves the purpose of keeping hiruzen at bay and outside of CQC because, let's be honest, he'd pretty much smash her in CQC. Enma CQC is one of the deadliest things for mei in this battle.
Lastly, the acid also serves the purpose of keeping any shadow clones out. Any clones hiruzen sends in is guaranteed to die. Due to his limited chakra reserves, using a strategy like that is counter productive.
Assuming Hiruzen made it into CQC before mei set up her boil release, the fact that mei breathes out acid and spits lava will eventually push hiruzen back, if not to at least get a breather, at which point mei can set up her defences.
tl;dr; boil release: skill mist jutsu is perfect for keep hiruzen at mid-long range
mid/long range
due to the acid mist, this battle would now take place at a distance. That means it's mei's suiton/lava style vs hiruzens elemental jutsu. What wins it for mei is the fact that hiruzen can't through out too many jutsu. At these ranges, mei's at quick a disadvantage. Hiruzen's doton jutsu can block both her lava and suiton while he can use earth jutsu under her feet, raiton jutsu, water jutsu, etc to pummel her with attacks. Mei will mostly be on the defensive at this point but that's fine because she's also capable of blocking what hiruzen throws at her. Hiruzen's best bet will be to summon shadow clones and toss attacks at mei from multiple directions but if that attack misses it's over for him.
EDIT: If hiruzen plays his cards right and out smarts mei(really depends on mei's intelligence), he can pull off a win but his chakra reserves really crutches him in a match where mei can control at what distance it occurs.
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@nattana, there's some flaws in what you said
Chidori also damages unprotected hands[
I agree that Mei's just shown resilience to acid and high temps. Sasuke has also
spat out jutsus don't touch the users mouth/body[
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][
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].Chidori also damages unprotected hands[
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].I agree that Mei's just shown resilience to acid and high temps. Sasuke has also
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.Water is spat out directly from mouth and there are no signs of drowning. Doton is used directly from mouth and no one is getting their throats mutilated by rocks.
@Edit.
Your Chidori argument is spot on. One can be harmed by one's own jutsu. Seen with Sasuke, Deidara, Naruto and more. Going by that, Mei should've gotten incinerated after lava dripped out of her mouth. But she was fine
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You're talking about Katon not being executed directly from one's mouth, but it can be. Look at the scan
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. Looks like 'cone jutsu' only are used without any direct contact with one's mouth.
KidGamer65
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Either way, its irrelevant. Hiruzen only needs to get the existing mist away from him using Fuuton, and then attack Mei with 2 clones. As long as he doesn't get hit, it doesn't matter if there is mist in the field.
It will, but it's never going to land.
Better get some evidence for the bold then. Because asspull isn't any kind of argument. You keep mentioning Part 1, but I've already listed reasons as to why that's invalid. The Power scale drastically increased, and Kishimoto retconned Hiruzen's strength, as shown by his Part 2 display.
Nothing in the manga supports any Edo getting a boost in chakra due to Edo Tensei itself. Nothing at all.
Based on what? Your opinion?
It doesn't matter if it was while Sasuke was creating the flames. He made it, held it and took no damage. There is no excuse for that nor is the bold any kind of viable argument supported by the manga.
-Elements don't touch the user's mouth.
-Chidori harmed Sasuke's hand as AGoodBoy showed in the scan above.
-Yet Sasuke held Amaterasu and wasn't burnt. So I have no reason to believe that Mei is resistant to high temperatures, nor should I have any reason to believe that she's going to outright tank a Katon Hiruzen might use during this fight.
The point of the example is to show the bold, meaning the example isn't irrelevant. If Susanoo or Shinsuusenju had slammed her into the ground, then she would have been smashed. That's my point. If Hiruzen uses Doton and smashes her against the barrier, she catches on fire and dies. If he slams her against the ground, she gets crushed.
Lol, no, she doesn't. Her body structure isn't unique at all.
Well, obviously we will never convince one another.
My point is, that the only feats of alive Hiruzen we have are from P1. We all know that power scaling happened, but it's not an excuse. Hiruzen was exhausted after using 2 weak elemental jutsu without even splitting his chakra with clones. Also, while in Edo form, he wasn't bound by his old and weak human body. It's not only about chakra reserves.
KidGamer65
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Yes it is. Jutsu are all about chakra reserves. His old age caused his low chakra reserves, which is why they said it was dangerous for him to use clones. Then Part 2 came along and Hiruzen used 5 clones with 5 large elemental jutsu all at the same time. Edo Tensei has NEVER been stated or implied or shown to increase the chakra of the revived zombies, yet you are trying to tell me that Hiruzen got a boost.
Power scaling on its own isn't an excuse. Power scaling, the fact Edo Hiruzen did it, and the fact that Edo Tensei gives no boost in chakra is an argument that undisputably shows that Alive Hiruzen can do what Old Hiruzen did.
And what if summonned soul's chakra is added to the vessel's chakra? Never considered it as a possibility? With Hiruzen's soul inhabiting a Zetsu it would make sense that he got a chakra boost. This actually is the only way Hiruzen could do all that as Edo if we don't want to call it an asspull.
KidGamer65
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Except that's not how it works. Never was implied, nor stated, nor shown.
Call it what you want, but its valid.
There are many jutsu that haven't been explained thoroughly yet. And probably never will be. I wonder what's your source of information that made you sound like you knew how ET works in such detail.
KidGamer65
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I do know how it works in detail. Cause the manga explained what it does. It not saying what you want it to say doesn't mean that the Jutsu hasn't been thoroughly explained.