That is just Guy though. Think about this: Minato defeated Obito (who had MS). You could come up with space time jutsus or things like that. Be an inventor like Tobirama.
The sharingan user still has to suffer alot of pain. Sometimes that pain even requires work. Think about it:
Usually an Uchiha is in an intense battle situation when they awaken the sharingan in the first place. I'd call that work.
You have to feel the intense pain of loss in order to get MS. This pain is more than enough compensation for the power.
For those who have killed their closest loved ones, it might have been easier said than done.
Sasuke tried to get MS at the end of part 1 by killing Naruto at the valley of end. We saw how hard of a battle that was! When Sasuke finally did get MS, it was after killing Itachi which was also a very hard battle!
If you have to fight death battles for your powerups, then I would definitely call that work!
Suffering emotional pain is also work in my opinion as well!
I will admit that EMS is more of a handout, but rinnegan is a different story!
For rinnegan, you need to be a transmigrant and then find the other transmigrant and take his DNA. This most likely will lead to a death battle (a.k.a Hashirama vs Madara at the valley of end) because Indra's and Ashura's reincarnations don't tend to get along (as stated by Black Zetsu) and I don't think someone would just let you casually take their cells without putting up a fight!
I don't know about you, but I consider death battles and emotional trauma to be plenty of work!
Even after you awaken these eyes, you still have to train to master the techniques. Sasuke just didn't master enton or susanoo right away!
The sharingan user still has to suffer alot of pain. Sometimes that pain even requires work. Think about it:
Usually an Uchiha is in an intense battle situation when they awaken the sharingan in the first place. I'd call that work.
You have to feel the intense pain of loss in order to get MS. This pain is more than enough compensation for the power.
For those who have killed their closest loved ones, it might have been easier said than done.
Sasuke tried to get MS at the end of part 1 by killing Naruto at the valley of end. We saw how hard of a battle that was! When Sasuke finally did get MS, it was after killing Itachi which was also a very hard battle!
If you have to fight death battles for your powerups, then I would definitely call that work!
Suffering emotional pain is also work in my opinion as well!
I will admit that EMS is more of a handout, but rinnegan is a different story!
For rinnegan, you need to be a transmigrant and then find the other transmigrant and take his DNA. This most likely will lead to a death battle (a.k.a Hashirama vs Madara at the valley of end) because Indra's and Ashura's reincarnations don't tend to get along (as stated by Black Zetsu) and I don't think someone would just let you casually take their cells without putting up a fight!
I don't know about you, but I consider death battles and emotional trauma to be plenty of work!
Even after you awaken these eyes, you still have to train to master the techniques. Sasuke just didn't master enton or susanoo right away!
Do you even read the manga? Better yet, do you even watch the anime or play the games? Enton is another word for blaze release if that is what confused you. He had that since 5 kage summit!
Do you even read the manga? Better yet, do you even watch the anime or play the games? Enton is another word for blaze release if that is what confused you. He had that since 5 kage summit!
You do have a point, while the Uchiha don't have to work as hard as the next clan, they are essentially glass cannons. Uchiha are not known to carry out long fights, stamina has always been a problem for them. Madara controlling kurama to fight against Hashi, Itachi couldn't keep his MS activated for over a certain amount of time, same with Sasuke, he couldn't keep his sharingan juiced up in his fights with Deidara & Itachi, he burnt out his MS in the span of days. Even now currently, his rinnegan requires resting. Only Uchiha that has decent stamina would be Obito, and he was infused with Hashi's cells, so his stamina was given.
The sharingan user still has to suffer alot of pain. Sometimes that pain even requires work. Think about it:
Usually an Uchiha is in an intense battle situation when they awaken the sharingan in the first place. I'd call that work.
You have to feel the intense pain of loss in order to get MS. This pain is more than enough compensation for the power.
For those who have killed their closest loved ones, it might have been easier said than done.
Sasuke tried to get MS at the end of part 1 by killing Naruto at the valley of end. We saw how hard of a battle that was! When Sasuke finally did get MS, it was after killing Itachi which was also a very hard battle!
If you have to fight death battles for your powerups, then I would definitely call that work!
Suffering emotional pain is also work in my opinion as well!
I will admit that EMS is more of a handout, but rinnegan is a different story!
For rinnegan, you need to be a transmigrant and then find the other transmigrant and take his DNA. This most likely will lead to a death battle (a.k.a Hashirama vs Madara at the valley of end) because Indra's and Ashura's reincarnations don't tend to get along (as stated by Black Zetsu) and I don't think someone would just let you casually take their cells without putting up a fight!
I don't know about you, but I consider death battles and emotional trauma to be plenty of work!
Even after you awaken these eyes, you still have to train to master the techniques. Sasuke just didn't master enton or susanoo right away!
You've made some good points about the work aspect of the Sharingan. I suppose to an extent its not so much a silver platter thing.
But as I said in previous posts and/or the OP, my real issue is not with the base level sharingan (even with its ability to copy other techniques). In fact, its not even the Mangekyo Sharingan abilities such as Amaterasu and Tsukyomi. I can even tolerate the Kamui.
But Susanoo and beyond is just ridiculous when you consider the fact that non-Uchiha shinobi have to resort to standard techniques and teamwork in order to win. Susanoo grants the user invulnerable to physical damage, which is an ability never replicated in its entirety before by non-Uchiha members (and this is on top of everything else they can do). Although it doesn't necessarily mean you can't defeat it, it makes it incredibly inconvenient, perhaps impossible. And I'm not entirely convinced that there is that much training involved. I've never seen Sasuke having to train for it (Maybe it did happen in the manga, idk). He wouldn't have got the ability automatically, but the potential was always there, something that non-Uchiha shinobi just don't have. Once Sasuke got the Susanoo, he can just spam it to his hearts content. I can understand the battles for the Mangekyo's abilities, but the trauma thing to unlock it doesn't really count.
And I'll tell you why.
Non-Uchiha (as well as non-kekkei genkai shinobi) have to also go through trauma as well on top of their training, but they get no benefits for trauma. If anything, it weakens them.
There are lots of shinobi that have gone through similar traumatic experiences (e.g. Tsunade) that did not get any extra abilities on top of the standard jutsu they already know.
And not all Uchiha get traumatised. Madara had no emotional trauma over any of the events he caused. He is a sociopath through and through. So its pretty much easier for him then even other Uchiha.
In the beginning of the introduction of Naruto, I thought the Sharingan was awesome. Think about it for a second. A Kekkei Genkai that could predict movements of the opponent as well as copy ninjutsu,genjutsu and taijutsu as well as the ability to sense chakra.
It was very impressive, and it helped to carve the image of the Uchiha very early on in the series as a legendary clan worthy of its reputation. It seemed a bit stronger than the Byakugan, but it didn't bother me that much.
Then the Mangekyo Sharingan came along. This was introduced as the modification of the base level sharingan which could give the user two very powerful techniques. Amaterasu, which was the ultimate fire-based technique which produced flames hotter than sun, and Tsukuyomi, one of the most powerful genjutsu in existence.
I was okay with the MS because there was something to balance this technique out. For one, the use of it could render the user blind if they use it constantly (a characteristic which seems to be forgotten as the series progresses, but I will get to that later). And two, the method used in getting the MS was morally ethically dubious: one had to kill there best friend. These boundaries helped to ensure that it would not get spammed to the point of ridiculousness without consequences.
In other versions of the MS, one could teleport things to other dimensions. This was seen with Obito's/Kakashi's MS. As they did not use it for anything other than that, I was able to accept that.
Now, this is the part where I have to get critical. It all started with the introduction of the Susanoo, which is the ability to produce a large diety-like figure to protect you. Okay then...well...um...was it not enough that we already had all those other abilities for the Sharingan? I know that we can "justify" it by saying it is a rarity, and that it causes extreme pain to the user, but still, all these abilities plus Susanoo on a silver platter just because one just so happens to be Uchiha? Really?
That's not even the worst part of it. Oh no...no where near that yet!
There is also the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, which not only restore the sight of the user, but they will not experience bad side-effects again! So no more pain from using Susanoo! HURR DURR DI DURR!
The justification for this new thingy is that it apparently is a difficult process to achieve. Apparently several Uchiha throughout history have tried and failed to get it, resulting in "fruitless sacrifices". Oh no! Gasp! It's funny though that we don't hear about those people in the plot, and that no one in the plot seems to have suffered this fate. So this disadvantage doesn't really "exist" in the mind of the reader.
It reminds me of the time they mentioned in the plot that 40,000 ninja got killed (about half the combined forces) within the first day of the Fourth Shinobi War (which wasn't really a war, but that's a separate issue altogether). How can one truly suspend disbelief if absolutely none of any of the established characters happened to be among those people. To this date, the only established character death was Neji Hyuga, which is pathetic really.
Oh, and if that wasn't enough, behold the most hax ability of them all: IZANAGI!
And guess what it does.
It gives the ability to manipulate illusion and reality.
Illusion. And. Reality.
Let that sink in for a second. (I'm assuming that most people would already know this by now, but still, just really let it sink in).
All at the cost of not using the eye EVER AGAIN! GASP! HERP DI DERP! What a crippling disadvantage!
So awful that when Danzo Shimura used it he just so happened to have them all along his arm so he could use them several times!
So awful that when Obito used it against Konan that he managed to easily replace it with a rinnegan!
It hasn't become a useful tool in times of need anymore. It has become the ultimate hax. I do not care about these so called "drawbacks" because:
1: They are not real drawbacks. They always seem to find a sneaky way to counteract them.
2. Of the fact that the Uchiha have these abilities at there disposal regardless. Being granted abilities with drawbacks because of being born to a legendary clan (as opposed to actually working for it) is much stronger than having none of these abilities at all. Which is why the Byakugan suffers from being balanced. The Byakugan is a necessity for the Hyuga because of its "Gentle Fist" style. The Sharingan, even in its earlier stages, was an extra tool on top of everything else.
I do not care if you like the Sharingan. But it just annoys me the huge amount of people who go to great lengths in order to justify its fundamentally overpowered nature in the plot.
If it wasn't for the Sharingan, Sasuke would be dead several times by now.
Even Madara, who legitimately lost the battle with the 1st Hokage, had to rely on Izanagi (yep, that thing again) in order to escape alive.
Can people just at least admit that much, whether it bothers you or not, or whether you like it or not...
it does not bother me because wht would they have amaterasu and tsukiyomi and no susanoo. They are from japanese legend and it would be weird to leave one out. Only 2people have obtained EMS just so you know. You say that they forgot that people should be going blind using MS but we only seen that in kakashi. Who unlike sasuke and itachi only had 1eye and he would go long periods of time with out usinghis MS unlile sasuke who used it over and over again in short periods of time and itachi who had it for years. We seen him use it so much during the war though and as soon as emphasis was put on it he said he was going blind. Obito has hashirama dna in him so i could imagine that helped him with the set back so much. But i agree the danzo thing was bull shit and at least he still died
You've made some good points about the work aspect of the Sharingan. I suppose to an extent its not so much a silver platter thing.
But as I said in previous posts and/or the OP, my real issue is not with the base level sharingan (even with its ability to copy other techniques). In fact, its not even the Mangekyo Sharingan abilities such as Amaterasu and Tsukyomi. I can even tolerate the Kamui.
But Susanoo and beyond is just ridiculous when you consider the fact that non-Uchiha shinobi have to resort to standard techniques and teamwork in order to win. Susanoo grants the user invulnerable to physical damage, which is an ability never replicated in its entirety before by non-Uchiha members (and this is on top of everything else they can do). Although it doesn't necessarily mean you can't defeat it, it makes it incredibly inconvenient, perhaps impossible. And I'm not entirely convinced that there is that much training involved. I've never seen Sasuke having to train for it (Maybe it did happen in the manga, idk). He wouldn't have got the ability automatically, but the potential was always there, something that non-Uchiha shinobi just don't have. Once Sasuke got the Susanoo, he can just spam it to his hearts content. I can understand the battles for the Mangekyo's abilities, but the trauma thing to unlock it doesn't really count.
And I'll tell you why.
Non-Uchiha (as well as non-kekkei genkai shinobi) have to also go through trauma as well on top of their training, but they get no benefits for trauma. If anything, it weakens them.
There are lots of shinobi that have gone through similar traumatic experiences (e.g. Tsunade) that did not get any extra abilities on top of the standard jutsu they already know.
And not all Uchiha get traumatised. Madara had no emotional trauma over any of the events he caused. He is a sociopath through and through. So its pretty much easier for him then even other Uchiha.
However, with susanoo, it is not invincible. "Every jutsu has a weakness" - Itachi Uchiha (a susanoo user ironically).
Ay has broken through susanoo with sheer force before against both Sasuke and Madara. Tsunade has done the same with Madara's susanoo clones. Gaara showed that you can pull a susanoo user out of it. Nagato was about to crush susanoo with chibaku tensei. 10 tails Obito and Kaguya have easily broken susanoo. Ohnoki's jinton was able to destroy susanoo clones. Mei was able to melt the ribcage. Choujuro's hammer broke the rib cage. Afternoon tiger destroyed Madara's susanoo. Hashirama easily beat susanoo with mokuton. Kabuto showed that sound based genjutsu works on susanoo users.
The list goes on and on, so susanoo is nowhere near invulnerable. Now I will admit that perfect susanoo is a different story, but the perfect form is more so the exception than the rule. In fact, only Indra and his reincarnations (Madara and Sasuke) have showcased it. Even then, Kaguya and Hashirama were still able to fodderize their perfect susanoos.
As for training, I must mention two points:
1. With a normal MS, there is the whole issue of susanoo draining one's life force and hurting the user.
"Every cell in my body hurts!" - Sasuke Uchiha (5 kage summit while only using the ribcage mind you) Susanoo even drove Itachi to give into his illness and die! It is not until EMS that you can spam it (and EMS is very rare).
2. Sasuke did train with it off panel. Remember when we saw Sasuke's EMS for the first time after he killed white zetsu. Sasuke then stated that he might try outside. This scene implied that Sasuke had been training with and testing out his new eyes.
Besides, there are plenty of other defensive techniques. Don't forget about:
The rashomon gates that Hashirama and Orochimaru can use.
Gaara's absolute defense
Hyuuga's rotation
Earth style mud wall
etc...
Between all of susanoo's weaknesses and all of the ways to replicate its degree of defense, other shinobi have no excuse.
Finally, as for potential, that just can't be helped. If one gets mad about that, then one should get mad at Kimmimaro and Haku because they had the potential to use the bone jutsu and ice release.
I don't see the need to hate on a certain powerup because all clans in Naruto had something that made them special. I see what you're saying the sharigan being haxed and all but imo the sharigan has been nerfed since it's introduction. The ability to copy all techniques for one was pretty haxxed. Kishi was going to write himself into a hole if he didn't nerf the abilities of Uchiha.
However, with susanoo, it is not invincible. "Every jutsu has a weakness" - Itachi Uchiha (a susanoo user ironically).
Ay has broken through susanoo with sheer force before against both Sasuke and Madara. Tsunade has done the same with Madara's susanoo clones. Gaara showed that you can pull a susanoo user out of it. Nagato was about to crush susanoo with chibaku tensei. 10 tails Obito and Kaguya have easily broken susanoo. Ohnoki's jinton was able to destroy susanoo clones. Mei was able to melt the ribcage. Choujuro's hammer broke the rib cage. Afternoon tiger destroyed Madara's susanoo. Hashirama easily beat susanoo with mokuton. Kabuto showed that sound based genjutsu works on susanoo users.
The list goes on and on, so susanoo is nowhere near invulnerable. Now I will admit that perfect susanoo is a different story, but the perfect form is more so the exception than the rule. In fact, only Indra and his reincarnations (Madara and Sasuke) have showcased it. Even then, Kaguya and Hashirama were still able to fodderize their perfect susanoos.
As for training, I must mention two points:
1. With a normal MS, there is the whole issue of susanoo draining one's life force and hurting the user.
"Every cell in my body hurts!" - Sasuke Uchiha (5 kage summit while only using the ribcage mind you) Susanoo even drove Itachi to give into his illness and die! It is not until EMS that you can spam it (and EMS is very rare).
2. Sasuke did train with it off panel. Remember when we saw Sasuke's EMS for the first time after he killed white zetsu. Sasuke then stated that he might try outside. This scene implied that Sasuke had been training with and testing out his new eyes.
Besides, there are plenty of other defensive techniques. Don't forget about:
The rashomon gates that Hashirama and Orochimaru can use.
Gaara's absolute defense
Hyuuga's rotation
Earth style mud wall
etc...
Between all of susanoo's weaknesses and all of the ways to replicate its degree of defense, other shinobi have no excuse.
Finally, as for potential, that just can't be helped. If one gets mad about that, then one should get mad at Kimmimaro and Haku because they had the potential to use the bone jutsu and ice release.
I agree with points suggested. Maybe the reason I considered it too powerful was due to the EMS phase of the Sharingan. I think the only exception to the rule of inventing good jutsu would be Rock Lee, as he cannot do sufficient hand seal techniques. But he is extremely exceptional.
In which case, I would suggest the following.
I reckon to fix the sharingan would be to do this:
1. Get rid of the EMS. Then the weaknesses of the Sharingan can remain intact.
2. Get rid of Izanagi. There is no excuse for this ability, regardless of its weakness.
The sharingan is overhyped really (unless you have kamui), especially EMS. Sasuke wasn't even top 10 before his shiny new rinnegan. The rinnegan is where it's at
Judging by your replies, you seem serious about the whole hax thing. Sharingan is hax, rinnegan is hax, the bijuu are hax. I think you'd have to agree that senju dna is hax too right. If you are having such problems with these hax powers (fair enough), do you have a problem with the naruto series as a whole? Since the series kinda revolves around the bijuu, uchiha and sharingan, senju and their chakra and the rinnegan. Why be so specific then?
As to your question, yes I agree but I think I wouldn't have had it any other way considering all the foreshadowing and hype kishimoto created on hashi vs maddy and how the sosp created the moon etc. Any lower power scale and it wouldn't be naruto lol unless it was supposed to end in part 1 before introducing so many other things like infinite tsukuyomi and the ten tails.
Judging by your replies, you seem serious about the whole hax thing. Sharingan is hax, rinnegan is hax, the bijuu are hax. I think you'd have to agree that senju dna is hax too right. If you are having such problems with these hax powers (fair enough), do you have a problem with the naruto series as a whole? Since the series kinda revolves around the bijuu, uchiha and sharingan, senju and their chakra and the rinnegan. Why be so specific then?
If it wasn't for Kurama, Naruto would have died several times by now.
Madara relied on Izanagi because he was only after Hashirama's DNA, not because he thought he might lose. He knew in order to work in secret and study the rinnegan, he had to be known "dead" by shinobi around the world.
That has absolutely nothing to do with gaining powers, which come within a free package. You are creating a dichotomous view on things. If one is a free power up, then so is the other. One brand of free power up shouldn't irritate you any more than the other.
