Hakuja senin and Kaguya , Hagoromo and Gamamaru (ogama senin).

[davidou]

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I noticed that Kaguya was able to use Muki tensei last week , looking at Kaguya's dimensions , her dimensions have similarities with Kabuto or Hakuja's Muki-tensei (inorganic transmigration) and there is no life (nothing organic) in those dimensions , not even a little tree.

In chapter 683 , Kaguya clearly shows the ability to manipulate inorganic things , it is what Hakuja teached to Kabuto.
She gives life to and controls inorganic things , not with the energy of the fruit called chakra , but with nature energy?.
The fact that Kaguya uses Muki-tensei tells us that there is a link between her powers and Hakuja senin's.
Is that why she has horns?

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Naruto's senin abilities are a bit different , his senin chakra on a white zetsus gives trees , he can give life to dead cells...
He gives life to organic things.
Naruto really gives life , the tree will live even if Naruto doesn't control it (unlike inorganic transmigration) , he can't control the things he gave life.

Kaguya is one with nature in another way that Naruto is.

Do you remember that Hagoromo called Ogama senin :Gamamaru?
Without a -san or a -sama or a -kun...

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If Gamamaru was alive at the time Hagoromo was also alive , there is a high probability that Gamamaru was alive when Kaguya was alive , it's also probable that Hakuja senin was alive at those times.
What happened between Hakuja and Kaguya , Gamamaru and Hagoromo?
Now , is there a relation with Hakuja/Gamamaru , inorganic/organic and Yin/Yang?

I was sure Hakuja and Gamamaru were going to be important at some point , are we about to know their story?
I hope so.

 

[Power Bottom]

It's a possibility.

 

[The Exception]

Who is Hakuja again?

 

[Rabbit Teth]

They're both pretty old now but I think back in the day they'd have served as the two Summons for Hagoromo and Hamura. In fact I think the brothers rode them into battle against the Juubi:

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Look at what they're standing on. Either those hills have ropes tied around them or the brothers are riding creatures into battle that have helmets on. Might have to wait for the Anime or another flashback but I reckon there's a good chance we'll see the Great Toad Sage and the White Snake Sage in battle.

 

[davidou]

They're both pretty old now but I think back in the day they'd have served as the two Summons for Hagoromo and Hamura. In fact I think the brothers rode them into battle against the Juubi:

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Look at what they're standing on. Either those hills have ropes tied around them or the brothers are riding creatures into battle that have helmets on. Might have to wait for the Anime or another flashback but I reckon there's a good chance we'll see the Great Toad Sage and the White Snake Sage in battle.

Those ropes are shimenawa.
They are used in shintoist tranfer rituals , to seal spirits into objects or in humans.

It looks like a setup to seal something or to transfer something.
More info in that thread:

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[davidou]

Who is Hakuja again?

The snake on the 3rd image of my first post.
Did you read the manga?

 

[ssjsage]

nice catch dude. i didnt even think of kaguya using sage mode. i thought hamura would be a snake sage and hagoromo being a toad sage

 

[Angelic.]

i could have sworn i commented on this thread earlier lol

would be cool to see the toads again. and the snake is mysterious. since hago is meeting with the hokage, it would be a good time to get more info from him and the animals. maybe animals are in a realm that kaguya will open a portal to? thats where obito and naruto go?

sasuke dsm confirmed llol

 

[Rabbit Teth]

Those ropes are shimenawa.
They are used in shintoist tranfer rituals , to seal spirits into objects or in humans.

It looks like a setup to seal something or to transfer something.
More info in that thread:

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Maybe (and thanks for the link), but I don't see why they'd stop in the middle of battle to tie ropes around trees or hills.

I think it's more likely that they are Shinobi-no-o which are the cords used to keep samurai helmets in place during battle. The cord usually runs on the inside but for decorative and ceremonial purposes the cord was sometimes worn on the outside tied into the same distinctive knots. In a couple of the oneshots you will see toads wearing samurai helmets and here's Naruto wearing one with the knot at the back:

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I think Hagoromo was on an armoured toad (Gamamaru) and Hamura was on an armoured snake. Ropes is Ropes so we'll have to wait and see.

 

[davidou]

nice catch dude. i didnt even think of kaguya using sage mode. i thought hamura would be a snake sage and hagoromo being a toad sage

Thanks man.

I thought about that too.
Thinking about that , I saw something that could be a coincidence or not:

Hakuja
Kaguya
Hamura
-a-u-a , is that significant?


What role is Katsuyu playing in this story?
She doesn't seem to be as relevant as Hakuja and Gamamaru.

 

[davidou]

i could have sworn i commented on this thread earlier lol

would be cool to see the toads again. and the snake is mysterious. since hago is meeting with the hokage, it would be a good time to get more info from him and the animals. maybe animals are in a realm that kaguya will open a portal to? thats where obito and naruto go?

sasuke dsm confirmed llol

Yes , you did.
I posted that idea in a thread that was talking about Kaguya's abilities.

Hagoromo could very well be the one to tell us this story (talking to the kages).

BZ is very talkative (strange , he wasn't at all before) since his "mother" is revived.

Kaguya travelling to the animals dimension could be interesting , that would mean that Hakuja and all the toads are not trappêd under the IT.


Do you remember that Gamabunta couldn't comme to save the Earth when Naruto summoned him in this war?
Gamakachi told Naruto that he had something else to do.
What is more important than helping the Shinobi Alliance to save the world?Saving the world.
I believe the toads are planning something.
I don't want to believe that the reason why Gamabunta didn't come is because he is drinking some oil at Gamamaru's birthday.


Do you really think Hakuja would let him be trapped in IT without doing something?

 

[davidou]

Maybe (and thanks for the link), but I don't see why they'd stop in the middle of battle to tie ropes around trees or hills.

I think it's more likely that they are Shinobi-no-o which are the cords used to keep samurai helmets in place during battle. The cord usually runs on the inside but for decorative and ceremonial purposes the cord was sometimes worn on the outside tied into the same distinctive knots. In a couple of the oneshots you will see toads wearing samurai helmets and here's Naruto wearing one with the knot at the back:

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I think Hagoromo was on an armoured toad (Gamamaru) and Hamura was on an armoured snake. Ropes is Ropes so we'll have to wait and see.

That is interesting.

The white Paper Strips (Triangles) are called Shide.
Shimenawa+Shide=Shintoist seals were clearly Kishimoto's inspiration for this draw.
That make me think that it's more a transfer or a seal than animals.

Could those mountains have become animals after having sealed the thing they wanted to seal?


Did you notice that the concept of Yorimashi is very similar to the concept of Jinchuriki.
Did you notice that Orochimaru is a Yorimashi?
Orochimaru's transfer every 3 years uses those shimenawa to operate (Sasuke has a shimenawa , he is ready for the transfer).

 

[Rabbit Teth]

That is interesting.

The white Paper Strips (Triangles) are called Shide.
Shimenawa+Shide=Shintoist seals were clearly Kishimoto's inspiration for this draw.
That make me think that it's more a transfer or a seal than animals.

Could those mountains have become animals after having sealed the thing they wanted to seal?


Did you notice that the concept of Yorimashi is very similar to the concept of Jinchuriki.
Did you notice that Orochimaru is a Yorimashi?
Orochimaru's transfer every 3 years uses those shimenawa to operate (Sasuke has a shimenawa , he is ready for the transfer).

I agree with all the references you're pointing out I just disagree with your conclusion. Religious iconography is used a lot throughout the manga and it informs a lot of the story but it's not a hard and fast rule that Kishi is telling the story of the items he incorporates into his art.

Take for example the Wooden Buddha. This is a huge symbol to steal from a religion and while there are Buddhist undertones in a lot of the story, the depiction of a Wooden Buddha being used for war would get him arrested for sacrilege in some countries.

I would expect the framing and composition of that particular panel to be very different if Kishi was building up to show us Hagoromo and Hamura sealing the Juubi. For a start I would expect a much wider frame and the body language of the characters to be different. A giant Seal would need to be shown from much further away to get the maximum impact for storytelling purposes. Also Hagoromo and Hamura are not entering a meditative pose as I would expect in the run up to the use of religious seal. Instead the panel is framed so as to hide what the brothers are riding and the body language suggests somebody charging into battle.

For those reasons, I think Kishi is lining up a big reveal of what they are standing on. To me it points to them wearing helmets much like Raiden in Mortal Kombat crossed with ceremonial Samurai Helmets. Given that Hagoromo was familiar with Gamamaru (he's the one that the prophecy came from) and given that Gamamaru would have been in his prime at around this time then I expect him to be the Sage's summoning animal for battle purposes. The size, frame and context all match up.

The references you pick up on are no doubt where Kishi has taken the imagery from, I just think that all the other visual cues hint that they are riding into battle on their beasts just as Naruto and Sasuke have been doing for a while.

As for Oro - I could chat all day on all the references he brings into the story.

 

[davidou]

Shame on those who would arrest Kishimoto for this.

I heard your point.
It's possible.