Rikudou Naruto vs........

[lanakui8]

No feats of the clones using the beasts chakra have been shoown

so? Naruto was using the beast's chakra in base, and we know that all the beasts are connected to the clones since kurama directly gave a clone more chakra. Naruto's clones have shown the ability to use all of his jutsus if they have enough chakra to do so.

None of the clones Naruto summoned have any

he can give them....

And notice how only one of em dealt finishing blows?

What in the world does dealing a finishing blow have to do with the power of a clone? Put the KCM clone that fought the edo kages against people who are tiers stronger like edo madara, rinnegan obito, and obviously we won't be surprised when the clone gets poofed easily. Yet does that mean that the clone is any weaker than the one that faced the edo kages? Obviously not.

When Naruto himself wasn't focusing his energy on anything special?

Naruto's clones are only useful when used sparingly and diversly, other wise he has to focus too mch energy on each of them and they become useless

What do you even mean "focus too much energy on each of them"? You mean chakra? That's obviously false as kagebunshin splits the chakra upon creation, naruto doesn't increase the amount of chakra a clone has. All he has to do is hold the technique, and the clones do whatever actions they want with whatever chakra they have.

 

[DMT]

Danzo solos

not even debatable

ka one shots

 

[lanakui8]

Danzo solos

not even debatable

ka one shots

because having a weapon in your arsenal that can one-shot your opponent = you automatically will be able to hit your opponent with it.

Can EMS Madara survive a kunai to the skull? Does Konohomaru have a kunai? I guess Konohomaru one-shots EMS Madara then.

 

[Omar19992010]

Naruto Neg Difficulty

 

[BlackFlame44]

Haven't I already established that you need the proof to disprove that Naruto clones cant use the original's jutsu? I'm not going in circles, you just simply refuse to disprove anything since their is nothing to use as evidence to support your assumption. Shadow clones clearly where the final wallop to take Kurama's chakra for Naruto to gain KCM.

I said they can't use all of them

You haven't given me anything to disprove

And you still have to show your proof, to disprove my negative

@bold: They only stunned him long enough for the ORIGINAL to use rasenshuriken

so? Naruto was using the beast's chakra in base, and we know that all the beasts are connected to the clones since kurama directly gave a clone more chakra. Naruto's clones have shown the ability to use all of his jutsus if they have enough chakra to do so.

And if Narto himself has enough chakra as well, and if clones can get the beast's power, why have they only been using basic jutsu lately

he can give them....

Speculation

What in the world does dealing a finishing blow have to do with the power of a clone? Put the KCM clone that fought the edo kages against people who are tiers stronger like edo madara, rinnegan obito, and obviously we won't be surprised when the clone gets poofed easily. Yet does that mean that the clone is any weaker than the one that faced the edo kages? Obviously not.

Point is, Clones dont just simply multiply effectiveness, they work as diversions, fo the original to create an opening.

When used sparingly they are effective, otherwise they just get in the way

What do you even mean "focus too much energy on each of them"? You mean chakra? That's obviously false as kagebunshin splits the chakra upon creation, naruto doesn't increase the amount of chakra a clone has. All he has to do is hold the technique, and the clones do whatever actions they want with whatever chakra they have.

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that being said, if the original is busy the clones won't be doing so hot on the battlefield and the stronger the clones are the more chakra he'll use for their jutsu

 

[sharingansennin]

I didn't say Obito has KA o.o

Ao detected it because he has the Byakugan. He actually didn't even detect the jutsu itself; all he knew was that Danzo's eye was activated and channeling chakra. He never said anything about it being KA or even knowing it was a Genjutsu.

Naruto being able to predict negative intentions literally changes nothing. He won't know even know what technique Danzo casted.

Just restrict KA and Naruto stomps.

He knew it was Shisui's eye not that he was using the genjutsu

 

[Unorthodox]

naruto wins low diff

 

[V h o]

Spoiler

I said they can't use all of them

You haven't given me anything to disprove

And you still have to show your proof, to disprove my negative

@bold: They only stunned him long enough for the ORIGINAL to use rasenshuriken



And if Narto himself has enough chakra as well, and if clones can get the beast's power, why have they only been using basic jutsu lately



Speculation




Point is, Clones dont just simply multiply effectiveness, they work as diversions, fo the original to create an opening.

When used sparingly they are effective, otherwise they just get in the way

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that being said, if the original is busy the clones won't be doing so hot on the battlefield and the stronger the clones are the more chakra he'll use for their jutsu

Lol as I said your trying to prove that clones can't use the original's jutsu. I'm using that the fact that clones can use the originals jutsu. I don't see how you believe I have to prove your speculation wrong when it's speculation. Also the clones seem to do more damage then naruto using his rasenshuriken. But if you believe that sage art: giant rasengan barrage is weaker than rasenshuriken I won't argue with you.

 

[lanakui8]

And if Narto himself has enough chakra as well, and if clones can get the beast's power, why have they only been using basic jutsu lately

The clones haven't used even a normal rasengan or chakra arms against the rinbou clones, does that mean that these clones can't even use a normal rasengan? Obviously not. Unless you want to argue that the clones can't do anything that they haven't done on panel, then it does not follow that because they didn't use that jutsu yet, they can't use them. On the otherhand, we've seen from all of naruto's other clones that as long as they have the chakra to do it, they are fully capable of using the same jutsu naruto uses, and we've seen that the tailed beasts have access to every one of them. So we have no reason to believe they can't do it while every good reason to believe that they can.

Speculation

....because of what? Because clones haven't been shown to possess the exact same abilities as the original? What are the alternative arguments, why WOULDN'T Naruto's clones have the ability to do so?

Point is, Clones dont just simply multiply effectiveness, they work as diversions, fo the original to create an opening.

i don't know what logic evidence or reasoning you're deriving that from. Clones don't ALWAYS multiply effectiveness, but they certainly don't NEVER multiply effectiveness. Are you saying naruto would have been better off

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and pumelling gaara, but rather just fighting him with just his real body? Are naruto's clones stated or implied to be any faster, stronger, smarter, or reflexive than the original?

Unless you give some kind of explanation for the clones somehow becoming weaker when the original fights alongside them, I just don't understand by what evidence you would be making that claim.

When used sparingly they are effective, otherwise they just get in the way

Based on what exactly? Where are you getting this information from, nothing in the manga implies it.

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that being said, if the original is busy the clones won't be doing so hot on the battlefield and the stronger the clones are the more chakra he'll use for their jutsu

That's mokuton clones, not kagebunshins, and he's obviously using 'power' in exchange for 'chakra' since if the clone had more chakra, it would be able to use more powerful techniques and thus it wouldn't receive those kind of comments from madara.

 

[BlackFlame44]

Lol as I said your trying to prove that clones can't use the original's jutsu. I'm using that the fact that clones can use the originals jutsu. I don't see how you believe I have to prove your speculation wrong when it's speculation. Also the clones seem to do more damage then naruto using his rasenshuriken. But if you believe that sage art: giant rasengan barrage is weaker than rasenshuriken I won't argue with you.

Well in the Sealing room Naruto can hold as much sage jutsu chakraas possible, sure and I don't see why you think your word i so much more plausible

The clones haven't used even a normal rasengan or chakra arms against the rinbou clones, does that mean that these clones can't even use a normal rasengan? Obviously not. Unless you want to argue that the clones can't do anything that they haven't done on panel, then it does not follow that because they didn't use that jutsu yet, they can't use them. On the otherhand, we've seen from all of naruto's other clones that as long as they have the chakra to do it, they are fully capable of using the same jutsu naruto uses, and we've seen that the tailed beasts have access to every one of them. So we have no reason to believe they can't do it while every good reason to believe that they can

Clones using EVERY jutsu the original can is NLF saying something doesn't have limits just because it hasn't shown one is fallacy

Hence why we should only assume can do what's shown otherwise speculation and wank ensew and we have a naruto throwing 16 Lava Rasenshurikens just cause "Why the hell not"

This includes any other jutsu as well

....because of what? Because clones haven't been shown to possess the exact same abilities as the original? What are the alternative arguments, why WOULDN'T Naruto's clones have the ability to do so?

Becuase it's not up to us to set Naruto's limit so we go by what's shown

i don't know what logic evidence or reasoning you're deriving that from. Clones don't ALWAYS multiply effectiveness, but they certainly don't NEVER multiply effectiveness. Are you saying naruto would have been better off

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and pumelling gaara, but rather just fighting him with just his real body? Are naruto's clones stated or implied to be any faster, stronger, smarter, or reflexive than the original?

Did I clones ALWAYS divide effectiveness? No that's just you twisting my words again...

That said, do clones multiply effectiveness? Sure but only when used sparingly and competently Naruto has gotten be

Unless you give some kind of explanation for the clones somehow becoming weaker when the original fights alongside them, I just don't understand by what evidence you would be making that claim.

Based on what exactly? Where are you getting this information from, nothing in the manga implies it.

Because from what we've seen the miore clones he summons the more times they get clobbered, hence most of part 1

and lately he's been using them sparingly and now they can deal some damage

See the correlation?

That's mokuton clones, not kagebunshins, and he's obviously using 'power' in exchange for 'chakra' since if the clone had more chakra, it would be able to use more powerful techniques and thus it wouldn't receive those kind of comments from madara.

I'm pretty sure all tangible clone jutsus work alike and the fact that Hashirama was busy holding the barrier clearly plays a part

 

[lanakui8]

Clones using EVERY jutsu the original can is NLF saying something doesn't have limits just because it hasn't shown one is fallacy

If you are claiming that I am guilty of a NLF based on your definition of one, then you will be guilty of attacking a strawman since I don't state that 'because the clones haven't been shown a limit, that they are capable of doing all of the original's jutsu' as evidence, I bring up the fact that clones HAVE shown the ability to use all of the original's jutsu unless they don't have enough chakra for that jutsu. We've seen a KCM clone use everything KCM Naruto can use, from basic rasengans to KCM NAruto's most advanced techniques like FRS and bijuurasengan. That and nothing in the manga implying the alternative if they have sufficient chakra, is compelling evidence for clones being able to use the original's jutsu if they have enough chakra.

Hence why we should only assume can do what's shown otherwise speculation and wank ensew and we have a naruto throwing 16 Lava Rasenshurikens just cause "Why the hell not"

Because of the reasoning you just quoted, yet chose to completely ignore. Do not waste my time attacking strawmen.

Now what positive argument do YOU have for why the clones wouldn't be capable of using jutsu that a lower level Naruto was shown to use with ease?

Becuase it's not up to us to set Naruto's limit so we go by what's shown

THat statement right there is YOU SETTING NARUTO'S LIMIT. By claiming 'we go by what's shown' you are making the positive assertion that naruto is incapable of doing more than he has shown. Therefore, if we go by your logic, naruto's Rikudousennin mode clones can't even use normal rasengans, something naruto had 200 of his base clones doing back in the wind arc because 'they haven't shown the ability to do so'. Do you think that is true? If not, then you can't claim that naruto is incapable of X just because he hasn't shown it on panel. You have to give some kind of REASONING for denying naruto to do something.

Did I clones ALWAYS divide effectiveness? No that's just you twisting my words again...

It's just amazing how you accuse me of twisting words, yet in the very same line you do exactly that to my post. Never did I even claim that you said 'clones divide effectiveness'. So I don't even know what point you are attacking here.

That said, do clones multiply effectiveness? Sure but only when used sparingly and competently Naruto has gotten be

Again, what is that based on?

Because from what we've seen the miore clones he summons the more times they get clobbered, hence most of part 1

and lately he's been using them sparingly and now they can deal some damage

See the correlation?

This is so bad that I think you don't even believe it yourself, and are simply using it as a way to try and depower Naruto or clone users in general.

Could it be that.... the QUALITY OF OPPONENTS, the CLONE CLEARING ABILITY OF THE OPPONENT, and THE AMOUNT OF CHAKRA PUT INTO A CLONE are the reasons why sometimes his clones get clobbered and sometimes they don't?

I'm pretty sure all tangible clone jutsus work alike and the fact that Hashirama was busy holding the barrier clearly plays a part

Sure, they all 'work alike' but that doesn't mean they can't have massive differences, even on the fundamental level. For instance, we know hashirama and his mokuton clones share a mental link meaning

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However we know kagebunshins don't work like that, instead information exchange isn't in real-time, it's only after the bunshin poof that the original gets their intel.

If kagebunshin users could actually give and take 'power' from their clones then it would make the entire danger of that technique completely irrelevant (that it splits the user's chakra equally).

 

[BlackFlame44]

If you are claiming that I am guilty of a NLF based on your definition of one, then you will be guilty of attacking a strawman since I don't state that 'because the clones haven't been shown a limit, that they are capable of doing all of the original's jutsu' as evidence, I bring up the fact that clones HAVE shown the ability to use all of the original's jutsu unless they don't have enough chakra for that jutsu. We've seen a KCM clone use everything KCM Naruto can use, from basic rasengans to KCM NAruto's most advanced techniques like FRS and bijuurasengan. That and nothing in the manga implying the alternative if they have sufficient chakra, is compelling evidence for clones being able to use the original's jutsu if they have enough chakra.


Because of the reasoning you just quoted, yet chose to completely ignore. Do not waste my time attacking strawmen.

Now what positive argument do YOU have for why the clones wouldn't be capable of using jutsu that a lower level Naruto was shown to use with ease?




THat statement right there is YOU SETTING NARUTO'S LIMIT. By claiming 'we go by what's shown' you are making the positive assertion that naruto is incapable of doing more than he has shown. Therefore, if we go by your logic, naruto's Rikudousennin mode clones can't even use normal rasengans, something naruto had 200 of his base clones doing back in the wind arc because 'they haven't shown the ability to do so'. Do you think that is true? If not, then you can't claim that naruto is incapable of X just because he hasn't shown it on panel. You have to give some kind of REASONING for denying naruto to do something.

The reasoning is that the manga doesn't show it, if he could he would

Otherwise I don't see why he wouldn't

Not everything needs point blanket statement for it to be proven true we can basically use what he hasn't done



It's just amazing how you accuse me of twisting words, yet in the very same line you do exactly that to my post. Never did I even claim that you said 'clones divide effectiveness'. So I don't even know what point you are attacking here.

Again, what is that based on?

The fact that the less clones he's used the ore useful they've become

This is so bad that I think you don't even believe it yourself, and are simply using it as a way to try and depower Naruto or clone users in general.




Could it be that.... the QUALITY OF OPPONENTS, the CLONE CLEARING ABILITY OF THE OPPONENT, and THE AMOUNT OF CHAKRA PUT INTO A CLONE are the reasons why sometimes his clones get clobbered and sometimes they don't?

I'm saying that the clones simply don't always have a consistent power level

Wether that's Kishi's fault or The User's Fault IDK

That's why a base shadow clone can take a susanoo punch but a KCM Clone can't handle Tobi's fan

Sure, they all 'work alike' but that doesn't mean they can't have massive differences, even on the fundamental level. For instance, we know hashirama and his mokuton clones share a mental link meaning

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However we know kagebunshins don't work like that, instead information exchange isn't in real-time, it's only after the bunshin poof that the original gets their intel.

Power and Chakra wise they are the same,

If kagebunshin users could actually give and take 'power' from their clones then it would make the entire danger of that technique completely irrelevant (that it splits the user's chakra equally).

It's a jutsu used for diversions to create an opening for the original, Naruto has been using it well enough to make it his own jutsu

But I'm only saying Naruto can't just use all of those jutsu with his clones at the same time

 

[lanakui8]

The reasoning is that the manga doesn't show it, if he could he would

Otherwise I don't see why he wouldn't

Not everything needs point blanket statement for it to be proven true we can basically use what he hasn't done

then you are claiming that naruto's current rikudou senjutsu clones are incapable of using normal rasengans because if they could use them, they would have done so already, which is flat out false as even back in his wind training base naruto was able to make 200 clones use fuuton infused rasengans over the course of hours.

The bolded is an assertion, you need to back that up by evidence within the manga that supports that assertion. Characters in the manga have time and time again not used a jutsu that they obviously should have used or would make one say 'i don't see why he wouldn't have used it'.

So once again, we arrive at the inescapable point where you have to either assert that Naruto's clones were incapable of even using normal rasengans or that the clones not using a technique =/= the clones being unable to use the technique and thus whether they have that capability or not is up to an argument.

The fact that the less clones he's used the ore useful they've become

That's once again a statement that utilizes trash logic. Their 'usefulness' all depends on who they are fighting, how much chakra the clone has and what mode the clone is in.

I'm saying that the clones simply don't always have a consistent power level

of course they don't, their power level depends on their mode and how much chakra they have in them which can vary based on how much chakra the original has, what mode he is in, how much clones the original makes etc. Their are many factors that determine how powerful a clone is.

That's why a base shadow clone can take a susanoo punch but a KCM Clone can't handle Tobi's fan

The base shadow clone never took a susanoo punch, it disrupted the oodama rasengan and that is what sent the clone flying just like what happened

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Tobi's fan probably has properties that make it extremely damaging to things made of chakra. We know for a fact that the original KCM Naruto is extremely durable as takes pretty much no damage from attacks like

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and

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yet he winces and is pushed back when he

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This is further supported by madara using the fan to

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.

Power and Chakra wise they are the same,

based on.... your word? Them not functioning the same? Naruto's clones having a set amount of chakra? Naruto being able to make base clones with sennin mode clones?

It's a jutsu used for diversions to create an opening for the original, Naruto has been using it well enough to make it his own jutsu

That's just a potential way to use the kagebunshin no jutsu. Obviously if Madara can kill kages with his clones, Naruto's clone can beat edo kages, Naruto's clones can beat paths of pains, naruto's clones can pummel gaara to a pulp, Minato's clones can deliver a fatal blow to obito, Tobirama's clones can save Naruto, Sasuke and Minato's lives, and so on and so forth, then the jutsu obviously is not intended to create a diversion in order for the original to get an opening.

But I'm only saying Naruto can't just use all of those jutsu with his clones at the same time

What is that based on? Each clone fights independently of Naruto, that's the whole reason why they can go off to the multiple battlefields across the continent and use high level stuff like FRS. Naruto doesn't know what they are doing, he's not controlling their actions with his chakra. Naruto isn't over there actively controlling their attacks and actions like he did with the SA's chakra cloaks, he makes a clone with a set amount of chakra and that clone is capable of doing watever it wants to with that chakra.

 

[bobtheboober]

braiyan :ilu:

 

[Braiyan]

braiyan :ilu:

Thanks, I guess?