[Discussion] Hamura and Hagaromo Lineage (How it fits together)

[valandil988]

The Hamura and Hagaromo Lineage is getting more complicated all the time it seems let me try and uncover things a bit.


Now so far its apparent that Hagaromo represents the Yang power of the two brothers. Hamura represents the Yin power. As odd as that seems the Rinnegan and the sharingan seems to be a greater Yang/ lesser Yin power in origin. Where as the Byakugan seems to be a greater Yin/ lesser yang orientated power.

Let me explain the madness of the above statement ^ (I know it sounds mad but just wait .)

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Above we see the Yin yang symbol, now what do we notice?

Yes within Yin there is a lesser Yang, and within Yang there is a lesser Yin. So it is with Hagaromo and his brother Hamura.

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This applies directly to their children.

The Senju have been proven to be the decidedly stronger of the two clans in their prime. Madara simply could not match Hashirama its a fact. Without stealing Hashirama's DNA Madara never would have matched the first Hokage, he went and controlled the Kyuubi and still couldn't match him.

Madara can be seen to be the strongest Uchiha ever, and Hashirama the strongest Senju. Fact is they were not equal. But wait weren't they suppose to be equal??? Yin yang? No Madara represented the lesser Yin where as Hashirama the Greater Yang. That puts their strength in perspective no? And it makes Hashirama's profound and overwhelming strength make sense.

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Now this also applies to the Hyuuga who are more or less confirmed to come from Hamura, so we know he had at least ONE child, however I am betting that he had two, just the same as Hagaromo. And just so both children were split across Yin and Yang just as Ashura and Indra were.

This means that the Hyuuga represent the Greater Yin, Kakashi said it himself their visual prowess for discerning detail surpasses the sharingan.

From this I will assume that the Uzumaki represent the lesser Yang that was a part of Hamura. And what does all of this mean for Naruto as Sasuke you ask?

Well it means this:

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They are truly equal in what they represent, they have an equal portion of both the inherited Yin and Yang.

Neither has a greater piece of the lineage.

My only question is why the heck Ashura could posses someone not from his own lineage?

 

[Kyaun97]

Uzumaki came from Senju bro, that's why they have similar traits i.e. life force, chakra...

 

[InvaderRaz]

To break the cycle of hatred, one must break the cycle. that's my reasoning for why he'd choose naruto

 

[valandil988]

Uzumaki came from Senju bro, that's why they have similar traits i.e. life force, chakra...

They don't have similar traits at all man. Compare them in detail.

The Uzumaki have chakra chains. They also have weird special chakra. The Senju have never been shown to use such techniques. The Senju have Mokuton and extremely talented bodies.

The Uzumaki have strong vitality which they used for their sealing techniques. The two are obviously not the same. The Senju have strong yang chakra. If they were the same Kishi would just say, they have strong yang chakra not vitality. He is using a different word for a reason...

 

[Disquiet]

Makes sense. From a plot perspective, it would explain why Ashura reincarnated into Naruto, an Uzumaki representing the lesser yang. Both successors would now be equal.

Though, what about the powerups? That may have given them access to the greater portions of yin and yang. In the previous chapter, Sasuke refers to their powerups as "Yin and Yang". It also changed their bodies (eye is the same as the body in the context I'm using, as opposed to the manga which distinguishes eye from body when referencing the senju and uchiha). Due to the change in physical appearance of Sasuke's eye (which looks like the Juubi's/Kaguya's eye), we know that the yin power up definitely affected his intrinsic yin. Naruto was able to kick the truth-seeking ball while in base form, and obviously had a physical advantage over Madara even before activating, or fully activating, the sage's powers.

As for Ashura choosing Naruto. I think it may be because there's no other senju. I'm not sure what the hell happened to them, though. But as far as we know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Tsunade is the only known Senju. That and the Uzumaki's share the same lineage as Senju.

 

[InvaderRaz]

Makes sense. From a plot perspective, it would explain why Ashura reincarnated into Naruto, an Uzumaki representing the lesser yang. Both successors would now be equal.

Though, what about the powerups? That may have given them access to the greater portions of yin and yang. In the previous chapter, Sasuke refers to their powerups as "Yin and Yang". It also changed their bodies (eye is the same as the body in the context I'm using, as opposed to the manga which distinguishes eye from body when referencing the senju and uchiha). Due to the change in physical appearance of Sasuke's eye (which looks like the Juubi's/Kaguya's eye), we know that the yin power up definitely affected his intrinsic yin. Naruto was able to kick the truth-seeking ball while in base form, and obviously had a physical advantage over Madara even before activating, or fully activating, the sage's powers.

As for Ashura choosing Naruto. I think it may be because there's no other senju. I'm not sure what the hell happened to them, though. But as far as we know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Tsunade is the only known Senju. That and the Uzumaki's share the same lineage as Senju.

Valid! I forgot that Tsunade was the last known living Senju.

 

[valandil988]

Makes sense. From a plot perspective, it would explain why Ashura reincarnated into Naruto, an Uzumaki representing the lesser yang. Both successors would now be equal.

Though, what about the powerups? That may have given them access to the greater portions of yin and yang. In the previous chapter, Sasuke refers to their powerups as "Yin and Yang". It also changed their bodies (eye is the same as the body in the context I'm using, as opposed to the manga which distinguishes eye from body when referencing the senju and uchiha). Due to the change in physical appearance of Sasuke's eye (which looks like the Juubi's/Kaguya's eye), we know that the yin power up definitely affected his intrinsic yin. Naruto was able to kick the truth-seeking ball while in base form, and obviously had a physical advantage over Madara even before activating, or fully activating, the sage's powers.

As for Ashura choosing Naruto. I think it may be because there's no other senju. I'm not sure what the hell happened to them, though. But as far as we know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Tsunade is the only known Senju. That and the Uzumaki's share the same lineage as Senju.

Your right.

The recent power ups they have gained from Hagaromo seem to be the two greater halves of Yin and Yang which they simply lacked before.

Sasuke gained Hamura's Yin and Naruto gained Hagaromo's greater Yang. Ergo Sasuke's visual prowess is now greater than any Uchiha ever including Madara. And Naruto has surpassed Hashirama by gaining not only the lesser Yang but the greater as well.

So now they are the true embodiment of Yin and Yang, lesser and greater in two people.

I've looked at this for a long time, Uzumaki does not equal Senju. They are simply not in the same leagues as the Senju. Sure the Uzumaki are famed for their sealing but no more so than any other clan is famous for their specialties. The Senju were famous for being good at EVERYTHING.

Not to mention that the bloodline abilities of the Uzumaki are simply not the same as the Senju. No where is it mentioned that the Senju could use chakra chains. Karin has shown that it seems to be a pseudo bloodline for the Uzumaki.

Its a distictly Uzumaki ability setting them a part from the Senju. While they may be related in some way, they have their own distinct inheritance from the Sage or his brother.

 

[Cael]

They don't have similar traits at all man. Compare them in detail.

The Uzumaki have chakra chains. They also have weird special chakra. The Senju have never been shown to use such techniques. The Senju have Mokuton and extremely talented bodies.

The Uzumaki have strong vitality which they used for their sealing techniques. The two are obviously not the same. The Senju have strong yang chakra. If they were the same Kishi would just say, they have strong yang chakra not vitality. He is using a different word for a reason...

senju has strong bodies, strong body in the term refers to charka,

fx. ashura inherited the sage body and indra the sage eyes.

uzumaki's have two lineage senju + another, that's why they have special chakra chains

vitality is yang chakra

ex. when naruto first took the yang chakra from the ninte tails, it reacted to yamato mokuton

The Yang Release (陽遁, Yōton; Viz "Light Style") techniques, based on the physical energy that governs vitality, can be used to breathe life into form


also Mokuton is not a senju thing, its an hashirama thing, senju are basically the clan of techniques.

 

[Cael]

Valid! I forgot that Tsunade was the last known living Senju.

Tsunade is part uzumaki/senju + some other clan

Tsunade is the grandaughter of uzumaki mito and senju hashirama.

 

[Broken Shinju]

Indra was one who relied only on himself so it makes sense for him to stick to his own descendants, while Ashura found strength through co-operation with others and we know the Uzumaki and Senju were allies.

 

[Disquiet]

Valid! I forgot that Tsunade was the last known living Senju.

I think many overlook that detail, especially since it was never explicitly stated the senju no longer existed, let alone non-existent during the time of Naruto's birth. Still, I believe it's worth considering, and makes the most sense.

Your right.

The recent power ups they have gained from Hagaromo seem to be the two greater halves of Yin and Yang which they simply lacked before.

Sasuke gained Hamura's Yin and Naruto gained Hagaromo's greater Yang. Ergo Sasuke's visual prowess is now greater than any Uchiha ever including Madara. And Naruto has surpassed Hashirama by gaining not only the lesser Yang but the greater as well.

So now they are the true embodiment of Yin and Yang, lesser and greater in two people.

I've looked at this for a long time, Uzumaki does not equal Senju. They are simply not in the same leagues as the Senju. Sure the Uzumaki are famed for their sealing but no more so than any other clan is famous for their specialties. The Senju were famous for being good at EVERYTHING.

Not to mention that the bloodline abilities of the Uzumaki are simply not the same as the Senju. No where is it mentioned that the Senju could use chakra chains. Karin has shown that it seems to be a pseudo bloodline for the Uzumaki.

Its a distictly Uzumaki ability setting them a part from the Senju. While they may be related in some way, they have their own distinct inheritance from the Sage or his brother.

I think you misunderstood me. To paraphrase; the Uzumakis and the Senju share the same lineage. I think the most logical explanation right now is that they (Uzumaki) are descendants of Hamura, who in turn inherited traits from Kaguya, as did Hagoromo. I don't think the Uzumaki are of the Senju lineage, although that's what the manga says (Black Zetsu could have been altering the truth when he told that to Obito, to keep certain mysteries around Kaguya and the brother).

I also notice the difference in their abilities, where Senju does indeed triumph.

 

[MAN OF SIN]

Hagaromo has reddish hair. So the Uzumaki are most likely from his lineage.

 

[valandil988]

senju has strong bodies, strong body in the term refers to charka,

fx. ashura inherited the sage body and indra the sage eyes.

uzumaki's have two lineage senju + another, that's why they have special chakra chains

vitality is yang chakra

ex. when naruto first took the yang chakra from the ninte tails, it reacted to yamato mokuton

The Yang Release (陽遁, Yōton; Viz "Light Style") techniques, based on the physical energy that governs vitality, can be used to breathe life into form


also Mokuton is not a senju thing, its an hashirama thing, senju are basically the clan of techniques.

Yeah but why make the distinction man?

Kishi used two different words to describe their traits.....

One he says physical energy, for the other he says vitality. physical energy is pretty explicit in what it means...however vitality means a little bit more, something that is particularly pertinent to Uzumaki and Naruto specifically....

Here is the definition of vitality from the dictionary:

1.exuberant physical strength or mental vigor: a person of great vitality.

2.capacity for survival or for the continuation of a meaningful or purposeful existence: the vitality of an institution.

3.power to live or grow: the vitality of a language.

4.vital force or principle.

Each definition refers to to the will of the Uzumaki. They have always been stated to be a rambunctious clan full of loud rowdy people that like Kushina don't give up easily.

The Senju to me don't match this personality profile, they seem calm and collected.

The Senju also have a notorious last descendant Tsunade a woman famous for giving up on life. Something Naruto would never do.

I believe that the use of the word Vitality has meaning and is very pertinent to the manga. Its an obvious hint that the Uzumaki and the Senju simply are not the same clan.

I think many overlook that detail, especially since it was never explicitly stated the senju no longer existed, let alone non-existent during the time of Naruto's birth. Still, I believe it's worth considering, and makes the most sense.


I think you misunderstood me. To paraphrase; the Uzumakis and the Senju share the same lineage. I think the most logical explanation right now is that they (Uzumaki) are descendants of Hamura, who in turn inherited traits from Kaguya, as did Hagoromo. I don't think the Uzumaki are of the Senju lineage, although that's what the manga says (Black Zetsu could have been altering the truth when he told that to Obito, to keep certain mysteries around Kaguya and the brother).

I also notice the difference in their abilities, where Senju does indeed triumph.

Ah, sorry thought you believe the Uzumaki and the Senju to be one and the same. Lol many people think some believe that just because it might make Naruto more unique or powerful. However that is simply not the case, if he was a Senju Naruto would be far more powerful than he was before he got Hagaromo's upgrade.

My question would be how did Hagaromo facilitate the transfer of the greater half of yin to Sasuke if it was in his brother's possession?

 

[Sasuke2]

Your thread is full of nonsense. Uzumaki are an offshot of Senju, who are Ashura's descendants who is Hagoromo's.
Not to mention even if it were true that Uzumaki hail from Hamura, then Naruto still wouldn't be equal, since he has no Hyuga blood.
And since he is Ashura's incarnate, that would have made him both Greater Yang and Lesser Yang, so not working at all.

 

[xXRolex]

Hagaromo has reddish hair. So the Uzumaki are most likely from his lineage.

 

[Seventh Sama]

I think hagoromo had both sun/moon marks.... Tho its possible uzumaki are hamura's descendants...

 

[xXRolex]

Uzumaki came from Senju bro, that's why they have similar traits i.e. life force, chakra... and kaguya