MS Kakashi vs. MS Itachi

[BenjerminGaye]

What does Kakashi have besides Kamui (which is easily countered seeing as how Itachi has full intel) that can deal a lethal blow to Itachi?

Actually itachi has no intel or knowledge of kakashi's kamui.
All itachi knows is that kakashi has ms.

Edit: wasn't aware of full Intel.

 

[LustyLover]

Actually itachi has no intel or knowledge of kakashi's kamui.
All itachi knows is that kakashi has ms.

location: war plains
starting distance: 15m
intel:full
mindset: in character
restrictions: KA (some people seem to think Itachi can use it in battle)

What is your opinion on this matchup. I think both characters are on a very similar level (when Kakashi still has his sharingan ). Kakashi has much improved stamina in the war-arc and has shown to be able to use his MS much more throughout the war arc on his own

And then there is Itachi, we all know how skilled he has always been.

I think it would be a very close fight but I'm leaning to MS kakashi high-very high diff because of Kakashi's Kamui feats and lethality. Whats your opinion on this match up?

bonus scenario: bloodlusted

Itachi has all intel, and since Kakashi is IC, he's not starting off with Kamui right away which leaves Itachi the perfect opportunity to counterattack Kamui with bunshins and one-shot him with a quick Tsukuyomi like he already did canonically.

 

[Bronze]

Just because Kakashi can sense a build-up of chakra in Itachi's eye doesn't mean he can predict whether it's going to be him activating Susano'o, Amaterasu, or Tsukuyomi, which still grants Itachi the element of surprise, meaning Kakashi will not be able to react with Doton.

Neither does Susanoo or Tsukuyomi showed a Chakra build up in the eyes. Also, Sharingan gives the ability to see future. [

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] So, Kakashi will know what Itachi throws and prepares to counter it.​

A ribcage, which is more than enough to block all of Kakashi's attacks (excluding Kamui) is enough to tank his lightning bunshins, which is pretty much his only competent offense here (which is also useless, seeing as it takes over half his chakra). Using Kamui has proven to be more laborous than Itachi using Susano'o, so when he does use it to teleport away, Itachi no longer has a large cloak of chakra around him, meaning he can easily blitz Kakashi like this and cast an irresistible Tsukuyomi.

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I wasn't arguing how Kakashi's offence penetrates Susanoo, but rather his counters to Itachi's attacks. ''Blitz'' argument won't work. Kakashi stalemated Itachi in CQC. [

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Taijutsu isn't on Kakashi's favor if Itachi can blitz an advanced sensor type,

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and fight in a Taijutsu battle with the likes of KCM Naruto

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as well as react to Bee without even looking at him

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Except, he already did in their second battle. Further the implication, Kakashi defeated Obito in CQC, who BM Naruto, Maito Gai and Killer Bee had trouble with. [

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] He can open 1 gate multiplying his overall physical attributes 10x times fold.​

 

[Kamui Sama]

Itachi has all intel, and since Kakashi is IC, he's not starting off with Kamui right away which leaves Itachi the perfect opportunity to counterattack Kamui with bunshins and one-shot him with a quick Tsukuyomi like he already did canonically.

Spoiler

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Kakashi has shown to be willing to instantly use Kamui if he feels the opponent possesses enough of a threat. Whether he decides to try and use kamui right off the bat in this fight is debatable but its not something that is guranteed not to happen

 

[Black Wolf]

pretty much how I see this fight going down U_U

What I see the difference maker being is if Itachi decides to pull susano'o. At that point Kakashi will know that that is the real Itachi and a kamui warp can be used with confidence. I also think kamui can bypass susano'o without having to warp the whole thing

Kamui has shown the capability to warp things that have depth, like Gedo Mazo's head and Deidara's explosion. There is no reason to doubt that Kamui would work through Susano'o's defenses to hit the user inside the construct. Replace Deidara's clone with Itachi, and replace the omni-directional expanding explosion with Susano'o. Same idea.

 

[Selan]

Kakashi (with War Arc feats) is faster and with better reflexes, and has also far more chakra/stamina than Itachi, and can fight effectively at his peak, while sick Itachi has some bad moments when his reflexes drop (just think how he was hit by Sasuke's rigged shuriken). Kakashi has also a lot of knowledge on Itachi while Itachi doesn't have and, simply, Kamui GG.

War Arc Sharingan/MS Kakashi >> sick Itachi
War Arc Sharingan/MS Kakashi > healthy Itachi

Shippuden pre War Arc Kakashi >= sick Itachi

etc

 

[LustyLover]

Neither does Susanoo or Tsukuyomi showed a Chakra build up in the eyes. Also, Sharingan gives the ability to see future. [

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] [

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] So, Kakashi will know what Itachi throws and prepares to counter it.​

I wasn't arguing how Kakashi's offence penetrates Susanoo, but rather his counters to Itachi's attacks. ''Blitz'' argument won't work. Kakashi stalemated Itachi in CQC. [

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] [

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]​

Except, he already did in their second battle. Further the implication, Kakashi defeated Obito in CQC, who BM Naruto, Maito Gai and Killer Bee had trouble with. [

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] He can open 1 gate multiplying his overall physical attributes 10x times fold.​

- Predicting a technique and being able to respond to it in time are two different things. Kakashi lacks the sufficient speed feats to react to Amaterasu.

- That Taijutsu scuffle was Itachi's clone which possessed only 30 percent of his chakra. If he stalemated with a 30 percent Itachi, I'd love to see what would happen to Itachi at his best. Itachi's blitzing capabilities are still on the table.

- When has Kakashi ever opened a gate besides that single opportunity? He never even opened it when he fought Itachi twice beforehand.

- ABC logic doesn't work.

 

[LustyLover]

Kamui has shown the capability to warp things that have depth, like Gedo Mazo's head and Deidara's explosion. There is no reason to doubt that Kamui would work through Susano'o's defenses to hit the user inside the construct. Replace Deidara's clone with Itachi, and replace the omni-directional expanding explosion with Susano'o. Same idea.

He never Kamuied the Gedo's head.

Susano'o's size > a small explosion.

 

[LustyLover]

Spoiler

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Kakashi has shown to be willing to instantly use Kamui if he feels the opponent possesses enough of a threat. Whether he decides to try and use kamui right off the bat in this fight is debatable but its not something that is guranteed not to happen

Then why didn't he use it when he fought Itachi in part 1 and when he believed he was fighting him in part 2? I suppose, to him, Itachi lacks sufficient reputation in order for him to waste Kamui in such a manner. Even if he did, Itachi can still use crow bunshin feints to avoid it. Since he never used it against him in the past, I see no reason for him to use in now.

 

[Bronze]

- Predicting a technique and being able to respond to it in time are two different things. Kakashi lacks the sufficient speed feats to react to Amaterasu.

He doesn't need to move. All he needs is to prepare his defence, and touching the ground is all he needs to defend against Amatersu.​

That Taijutsu scuffle was Itachi's clone which possessed only 30 percent of his chakra. If he stalemated with a 30 percent Itachi, I'd love to see what would happen to Itachi at his best. Itachi's blitzing capabilities are still on the table.

Itachi had only 30% of his Chakra. It did not effect his Taijutsu performance and other areas.​

- When has Kakashi ever opened a gate besides that single opportunity? He never even opened it when he fought Itachi twice beforehand.

Kakashi didn't open gate doesn't equal to him unable to. Especially, when this is a match-up discussion and not a manga plot.​

- ABC logic doesn't work.

Are you a hypocrite to this point? You used ABC logic for Itachi facing KCM Naruto, Kabuto and Bee, but you refuse it with Kakashi against Obito? Have some honesty next time. Not to mention, it applies for this.​

 

[Kamui Sama]

- Predicting a technique and being able to respond to it in time are two different things. Kakashi lacks the sufficient speed feats to react to Amaterasu.

- That Taijutsu scuffle was Itachi's clone which possessed only 30 percent of his chakra. If he stalemated with a 30 percent Itachi, I'd love to see what would happen to Itachi at his best. Itachi's blitzing capabilities are still on the table.

- When has Kakashi ever opened a gate besides that single opportunity? He never even opened it when he fought Itachi twice beforehand.

- ABC logic doesn't work.

Kisame already stated that the clones possess the same body as the user. the 30% chakra refers to the scale and power of original's jutsu. Kishi already put them on equal footing in the databook (4.5 in taijutsu).

As for the second argument, Kakashi kamui'd the gedo's arm which is undoubtedly bigger than susano'o. An already fatigued kakashi was about to warp the gedo's head until Obito cancelled it.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Itachi has all intel, and since Kakashi is IC, he's not starting off with Kamui right away which leaves Itachi the perfect opportunity to counterattack Kamui with bunshins and one-shot him with a quick Tsukuyomi like he already did canonically.

Cmon bro. Read the edut. Kakashi on three separate occasions opted to use kanui as a first resort and a last resort.

 

[LustyLover]

Kisame already stated that the clones possess the same body as the user. the 30% chakra refers to the scale and power of original's jutsu. Kishi already put them on equal footing in the databook (4.5 in taijutsu).

As for the second argument, Kakashi kamui'd the gedo's arm which is undoubtedly bigger than susano'o. An already fatigued kakashi was about to warp the gedo's head until Obito cancelled it.

If we're pulling out the databook here, Itachi has a perfect 5 in speed, whereas Kakashi has a 4, meaning they're in a different league in terms of speed and therefore blitzing is still a possibility.

It takes time to Kamui something of large mass, size, and height. With intel, Itachi has enough time to jump out of his Susano'o by predicting his attack with the Sharingan's precog and chakra sense buildup + his intel on Kamui and attack Kakashi with a Katon while he's still suffering from the backlash of Kamui.

 

[lanakui8]

Kakashi has shown the ability to warp something as large as Gedo mazou's arm almost instantly, however he has to get somewhat close to his target due to how blind he's become with that eye. So i'd say it could go either way with full intel as Itachi has totsuka and amaterasu that can hit kakashi before he gets into range.

If we're pulling out the databook here, Itachi has a perfect 5 in speed, whereas Kakashi has a 4, meaning they're in a different league in terms of speed and therefore blitzing is still a possibility.

Kakashi has a 4.5 in speed, and that's a databook that has been published almost 300 chapters ago, long before kakashi had feats like fighting against V2 jinks

It takes time to Kamui something of large mass, size, and height. With intel, Itachi has enough time to jump out of his Susano'o by predicting his attack with the Sharingan's precog and chakra sense buildup + his intel on Kamui and attack Kakashi with a Katon while he's still suffering from the backlash of Kamui.

It doesn't take him long anymore, itachi isn't escaping a gedou mazou arm-warping kamui with his speed.

 

[Kamui Sama]

Man there are not enough people backing Itachi :|

 

[Black Wolf]

He never Kamuied the Gedo's head.

Because it was nullified by the only other Kamui user.

He Kamui'd Gedo Mazo's arm. It's the same idea; items with "thickness" don't prevent Kamui. Kamui doesn't just warp away the first layer, it warps the whole thing.

Susano'o's size > a small explosion.

Kakashi doesn't have to Kamui the whole thing; only the portion Itachi is in.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

If we're pulling out the databook here, Itachi has a perfect 5 in speed, whereas Kakashi has a 4, meaning they're in a different league in terms of speed and therefore blitzing is still a possibility.

It takes time to Kamui something of large mass, size, and height. With intel, Itachi has enough time to jump out of his Susano'o by predicting his attack with the Sharingan's precog and chakra sense buildup + his intel on Kamui and attack Kakashi with a Katon while he's still suffering from the backlash of Kamui.

Kakashi has a 4.5. And he warped the gedo arm without prep.

 

[LustyLover]

Kakashi has shown the ability to warp something as large as Gedo mazou's arm almost instantly, however he has to get somewhat close to his target due to how blind he's become with that eye. So i'd say it could go either way with full intel as Itachi has totsuka and amaterasu that can hit kakashi before he gets into range.


Kakashi has a 4.5 in speed, and that's a databook that has been published almost 300 chapters ago, long before kakashi had feats like fighting against V2 jinks


It doesn't take him long anymore, itachi isn't escaping a gedou mazou arm-warping kamui with his speed.

4.5, meaning he's lower in Itachi in speed and also doesn't possess enough speed feats that react to a blitz 3T Sasuke couldn't react to (someone who is superior in both speed and reaction time). Also, there's no difference in his speed from "300 chapters ago" and now.

Show me feats of him Kamuing a Gedo arm instantly without Kyuubi chakra.

 

[LustyLover]

Kakashi has a 4.5. And he warped the gedo arm without prep.

Show me then.

Even so, does it really matter? Itachi has intel on it.

 

[LuckyMan]

Man there are not enough people backing Itachi :|

Because its clear Kakashi is in a different league than Itachi at this point. I'm sure by the end of the manga he will surpass the sannin, if he already hasn't, that is.