Manga Proof: Why Sasuke's Teleportation is far inferior to the Hiraishin no Jutsu!!
- Thread starter Minator93
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Instant is instant, even though the OP proved Sasuke's is not instant. FTG is more useful as it can travel beyond sight (still being instant). Plus Minato can mark anything he touches. Kunai spam essentially upgrades FTG drastically. FTG is far superior in my book. Only thing Sasuke's tech got is it doesn't need marking, but still needs to be in his line of sight(?)
Needless to say I agree with you Minator93, great thread by the way.
Needless to say I agree with you Minator93, great thread by the way.
sagatexplus
Active member
I really don't like to engage with these stupid but can you not what was Madara doing there
1. He was running away from then, where He was facing head to head with Minato and Tobirama. It's obvious his focus should be.....
2. Madara was busy planting Kakashi's eye of obito made him off guard and a good time for sasuke to strike.
3. Threat maker did say that Kamui has less speed transportation to another dimention.. no need to explain how was sasuke able to strike..
4. Yet Madara was able to Transport to another dimention so even sasuke haveing that speed he managed to go.. lol XD.. so
This is so NID.
Thanks dude
And an awesome Bison sig btw.
Indeed.
Agreed.
this guy talks about manga facts, but he says Minatos FTG is better than Obito, when Minato himself states that Obitos space time technique surpasses his and Tobiramas, let me tell you something, this manga has a lot of loopholes, not everything that appears in the manga is accurate so this kind of comparison is bad
Blaze Release
Active member
Already talked and agreed that hiraishin has its advantages agains’t sasuke’s technique mainly because of its variants.
Anyway firstly you seem to think or rather forget that, there are more teleporting techniques out there than kamui an hiraishin (lately sasuke’s technique). The god mother of all teleportation technique has been the kuchiyose and ill use that to overcome this idea that hiraishin is the only instant teleportation technique out there, but it is actually the opposite. All teleportation technique going by the information we have should be instant, with only obito’s kamui taking slighter longer.
The kuchiyose, no matter how far or non-existent a location is, once the preparations are formed, what the summoner summons instantly appears from where ever they are. From distant and near non-existent locations like mount Myōboku to Shikkotsu Forest. I don’t believe I need to show a scan. The same thing happens with the opposite the Gyaku Kuchiyose used to summon Naruto back to mount Myoboku. It happened so instantly that Naruto not only had no idea where he was, he still had his hands together from the time he was in konoha and the time he was summoned to Myoboku.
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Why am I showing you all this?. Simply, you seem to believe hiraishin is the only teleportation technique that happens to be instant, when in reality all teleportation technique, once the preparation or requirement is met, should be instant. Obito’s is the only one that defies this logic and that is because he has to solidify then wrap himself. When he reappears also takes some time.
Sasuke doesn’t have this problem and from what we have seen from his teleportation technique it follows the same principle, as any other teleportation technique. Once’s the prep is met, it is instant. What I think you are saying is that the subspace that sasuke enters is either longer or wider or for whatever reason when after using disappearing when he reappears it is milliseconds slower than hiraishin and so far you haven’t said anything that backs this, merely over analysing inconsistent details that I do not believe kishi takes about, something that as fanbase we like to always blow out of proportion. Until it is proven, Sasuke teleportation technique appears to follow the usual principles, which is once the prep has been met, it is instant teleportation.
Obito is the only one who has no issues with range. Both Minato and Sasuke oes no matter how much you try and give him the range advantage. Yes if he has seals at a location his range is as unlimited as obito’s, but if he doesn’t his range isn’t all that great, one of the reasons why kakashi/minato both acknowledged kamui as a more advance form of hiraishin. As for sasuke being the epicentre, we still do not have much info and that was merely a theory, but you see even if sasuke isn’t the epicentre, the range he has shown is enough to put it above an unmarked hiraishin area.
The reason why his technique is better than hiraishin is something that some sasuke fans I think were trying to explain with scans of sasuke on numerous occasions landing hits on madara, while both hiraishin users were quickly dismissed. Something Turson also tried to explain
Hiraishin in obviously a good technique, however there are two things to consider. Marking an area and marking an opponent. Just because an area has been marked isn’t the same as an opponent being marked. It will always be trickier to put marks on any high level opponent, but more importantly a marked opponent will find it near impossible to react to an instant teleportion where the hiraishin user teleports to them directly an lands a blow. Tagging an area doesn’t offer the same advantages as tagging the opponent. But you see Sasuke’s does. Once you are within his range he can teleport to you directly and do whatever he wants. As Turson said and rightly so, once in sasuke’s range, you are practically marked. Sasuke range is basically marking the area AND opponent at the same time, something that hiraishin doesn’t offer as those two processes are different and have to be actioned by the user.
You issue with escaping is a retarded one, it fails on so many levels. Teleportion no matter what manga or show you read its main power has always been its defensive capabilities; evasiveness. Every form of teleportion techniques almost guarantees this. We know of hiraishin and kamui. Kuchiyose also does the same as sasuke used it wisely when he called upon manda and reverse summoned to escape C0. Believe The 2 toads were also trying to persuade Jiraiya that it would be better to flee agains’t pain than to fight till the end. They would have had a teleportation technique at hand to do this.
What you are basically saying is that, sasuke teleportation technique is limited only when he is in attack mode and cannot use this very teleportation ability for whatever reason to get away because apparently he was caught by kaguya. Once’s you can teleport, it shouldn’t be a problem whether you decide to use it as an offence or defense. Perhaps sasuke’s inexperience with his new abilities is what we saw, but I have little reason to believe his technique is limited when he is about to attack and cannot use it as a defence.
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Alright.
Nice job explaining the Jikukan Ninjutsus, and yes I agree that once the "prep-time" is met the time taken for the transport should be the same because it's instant, however that's not the case here, at least the way Kishi has written his manga.
Why do I say this?
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Well here we see that Obito's Kamui[in which no seals are used] was initiated before the Hiraishin yet Hiraishin escaped it, proving that the transport speed[after the prep-time] one Jikukan Ninjutsu can be faster than the transport speed of other Jikukan Ninjutsu.
Another reason why I think that "A" Jikukan Ninjutsu's transport speed can be slower than others because of,
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Tobirama clearly says that a clone's Hiraishin is slower than the originals, we know the workings of Kage Bunshins so even at half or even at a third of chakra self-transport should go without a hitch but Tobirama insisted that it's slower with the clones, thus concreting what I said about the transport speed[after the prep-time] one Jikukan Ninjutsu can be faster than the transport speed of other Jikukan Ninjutsu.
Now I agree what you said "Obito’s is the only one that defies this logic and that is because he has to solidify then wrap himself. When he reappears also takes some time." but you also said that "Sasuke doesn’t have this problem and from what we have seen from his teleportation technique it follows the same principle, as any other teleportation technique."
Now if we follow the manga what you said about Sasuke doesn't hold at all. Why?
1. Mother of all Jikukan Ninjutsus i.e. the Kuchiyose no Jutsu requires "seals/markings" in order to teleport.
2. The Hiraishin no Jutsu also requires "seals/markings" in order to teleport.
whereas
1. Obito's Kamui requires no such seals and is a doujutsu based technique.
2. Sasuke's Jutsu requires no such seals and is a doujutsu based technique.
Sasuke follows Obito's pattern, a pattern in Obito's case is confirmed slower than Hiraishin or Kuchiyose.
Not to be the guy to repeat the same things over and over again, but as shown in the OT we saw when Tobirama transported [after the prep] nothing was changed, even the flame pattern of the Amaterasu remained the same, whereas when Sasuke transported [after the prep] Naruto had covered some distance.
And based on the above premise I concluded that the Hiraishin's transport speed after the prep is slightly greater than Sasuke's transport speed after the prep. On the surface even the Shunshin no Jutsu appears instant but we know the difference.
About Range I really don't want to talk more.
1. Obito has limitless range.
2. Hiraishin has limitless range [Given the "prep" of the tech i.e. the markings has already been met]
3. Sasuke's technique despite the prep works in a limited area most likely in a radius of at max 200 meters.
Also as seen in the last chapter Sasuke failed to use his tranportation, he used a Kuchiyose [a type of Jikukan] but didn't use self teleportation even when his technique could've worked. And before you say he wanted to save Naruto well he can supposedly teleport objects within his range which Naruto was. Gives us one more drawback tbh
Had it been Minato in his stead he'd first teleport to Naruto then to Kakashi and then throw a Kunai a top of boulder and get everyone there and then go to a safe place, proving once more that practically Hiraishin is better.
The reason why Sasuke's Tech worked against Madara and Hiraishin failed is simple, "Limbo, Onmyoudon, Intel and Lack of Intel"
Let's go with Hiraishin first,
As seen in this scan, Tobirama was actually a nano-second away from ending this war and being hailed as the Greatest Legend of all time, despite Madara having Full info on Tobirama's Hiraishin no jutsu.
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Madara is at a full stretch and can't really do anything, he was going to be killed had it not been the "Limbo" a technique you can't see or sense without Hagoromo's power.
And in Minato's case Madara had already seen the Kunai land in-front of him he knew what was to happen given the fact that he know's about Minato's Hiraishin no Jutsu as well. There's also a slight chance of Limbo being used on Minato as well but no solid proof has been seen so lets say Limbo wasn't used. However due to Onmyoudon Minato was forced to go with a Senpou Rasengan another predictable move instead of other flashy moves he has.
And as you mentioned this was because Madara wasn't marked, if he was then he'd get attacked by the Hiraishin user no doubt.
Now for Sasuke,
Madara didn't have any Intel [the most important thing in beating any technique]. Madara didn't have any Onmyoudon to shield himself because Minato, Gai and Kakashi have already taken most of that power away. And most importantly Naruto had taken care of the Limbo.
Had Naruto taken care of Limbo in Tobirama's case then Tobirama would've been that Legend. And of Onmyoudon in Minato's case then the outcome wouldn't have been the same.
And this is after not taking the fearful mindset Madara had against Naruto+Sasuke than the fearless mindset he had against Tobirama or Minato in consideration.
Now despite me talking about above points more than one time it got ignored and that's why I stopped replying to Turson and others who posted it.
About Sasuke having a "marked" area in which everything is his property well that would've worked had Sasuke's tech been anything like Hiraishin which can be spammed to death and has it's variants. Based on all the facts Sasuke can't even use it in succession, he needs to recharge after every single use.
Finally about Escapism
Yeah sure every teleportation is supposed to be used for attack as well as defense. However there's a difference, a difference which decides who or what to teleport with you, I'll make it brief,
What you said would work if say Sasuke has a bullet coming his way and he teleports to avoid it, in that case his tech works defensively but he can't escape after he's "restrained" i.e. when his body is "connected" with someone or something. Seen clearly when he couldn't escape Kaguya's hold even when it was draining his chakra to death, Minato when he was in similar situation against the Shinju instantly escaped with Hiraishin.
Same goes for Obito, he can't self-teleport unless he's solid and when no one's touching him. If and when someone touches him he goes intangible, this weakness was first exploited by Konan, then Kakashi and finally Madara. And it makes sure that even a Jikukan Ninjutsu can't have complete escapism.
In Hiraishin's case there's a shitload of manga-scans proving that there's nothing that can keep Hiraishin restrained, it's Minato[or Tobirama] that decide who to teleport or what to. Just like Minato saved Naruto and Sasuke[after the chakra link] despite them being firmly in Obito's hands, or the Shinju's eg.
So no, every Jikukan can't completely escape, Hiraishin is the only Jikukan which can escape even after being restrained which Sasuke or Obito can't do.
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Blaze Release
Active member
*Sigh*
Your first point.
Yes I said once prep is made the teleportation jutsu should be instant, however I excluded kamui from this rule.
“Once the preparation or requirement is met, should be instant. Obito’s is the only one that defies this logic and that is because he has to solidify then wrap himself. When he reappears also takes some time.”
Whether obito is using kamui on himself or agains’t an opponent like you have shown, he has to solidify to do so, but also he doesn’t instantly teleport his opponent’s away. Regardless of him having the quicker prep time.
This is what I meant when I said, one’s the prep has been met, teleportation techniques (excluding kamui) should be instant. This scan shows that. All 3 had roughly equal prep time, katsuya from Shikkotsu Forest, gamakichi from Myōboku and I am assuming Oada from Ryūchidō all got there regardless of how far apart these worlds are instantly.
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Bringing kamui into the picture is hopeless. We are talking about instant teleportation techniques. One prep has been met at the same time, they should both instantly reappear (sasuke & hiraishin users).
If Sasuke and either Tobirama or Minato were to execute their technique at the same time, they will get to the destination at the same time. If one takes longer with prep they lose.
Nice, I wanted you to bring that into the conversation because although what tobirama said is ambiguous, other forums have reached a good enough conclusion as to what he implies. Firstly id like to say you contradict yourself there too. From your opening and throughout your posts you have maintained the stance that, hiraishin is instant, however when backed agains’t the wall contradict yourself by saying, well hiraishin through the usage of clone’s isn’t so instant. So which is isn’t, instant or does it vary?. Regardless hiraishin is still instant and ill explain what tobirama means.
Think of Prep as A. Think of the actually instantaneous teleportation as B.
We know for a fact that hiraishin’ not only requires prep and no I am not talking about seals to kunai/weapons but rather concentration and at times gathering of chakra. The prep time varies considerable amongst the users, especially Tobirama/Minato and Raido/genma. They took a ridiculous amount of time, however once the prep =A, was complete the got to the battlefield instantly
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Secondly Both Minato and Tobirama have used clones for hiraishin, yet their teleportation speed was still instant from the look of it.
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So far from what we have seen it’s the prep time that varies amongst the users and not the actual teleportation.
Ill give you that, sasuke technique and obito’s are similar as they do not require seals and are doujutsu based. But they are also different. One is a rinnegan technique which kaguya stated to be rikudou’s the other an ms technique. One has a range and is instantaneous, the other doesn’t have a range, but isn’t instant. Then we have the fact the intangibility that obito’s possess and can apply to his weapons. There are other differences. Yes hiraishin principle is based on the kuchiyose, however who said sasuke’s s/t is based on kamui?. You neglect the fact that they may difference’s. Also some kuchiyose only uses handseals and not summoning tattoos while kakashi's kamui at the very start at least required a handseal to initiate it.
Your range point is moot again. You try your best to brush under the carpet one of the disadvantages of hiraishin which is that it doesn’t have a limitless range. Yes after prep it does, however that is after prep. We are looking at the technique as whole rather than brushing aside some of its disadvantage’s, unless hiraishin users have a seal at every corner of the NV, we take the technique as it is, seals need to be administered. Me no lie
Your point about how sasuke managed to land hits on madara while the two hiraishin users were dismissed with little difficult is you desperately trying to hold onto something, bring in assumptions and well, excuses. Yes I noticed you were more than confident enough with this section of your post that you created a separate thread an not surprisingly nb galloped it up. I have nothing more to say about that section of your post. Sasuke managed to land consecutive hits on madara because madara was within his range therefore was marked, the two hiraishin users struggled and were quickly disposed of because unless they had a kunai near madara or have tagged him, anything short of instant teleportation right on top of him would be dismissed.
For a better understanding of sasuke’s technique range think of it has neji’s hake. Neji being sasuke and the hake range being sasuke’s teleportation range
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.Saying all that i also strongly believe limob might have been used on sasuke that time and possibly tobirama
Arr, I think I get what you mean by escapism and how different teleportation jutsu’s can or cannot do this depending on the user being restrained. These are two examples that defies that kamui and kuchiyose.
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As for this quote of yours:
“Seen clearly when he couldn't escape Kaguya's hold even when it was draining his chakra to death, Minato when he was in similar situation against the Shinju instantly escaped with Hiraishin.”
That means nothing, all you have talked about is chakra. Every technique requires chakra, both minato and sasuke were having their chakra sucked, the god tree sucked minato’s enough to take away his bm mode, he still had enough chakra to teleport. However after that he noted that it was impossible to use hiraishin
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Now if the god tree had gotten minato again, he wouldn’t have escaped as he doesn’t have the chakra to do so. Like every jutsu having your chakra sucked out of you whilst trying to perform the jutsu is going to difficult, minato managed as was left with little to now defense if the god tree had gotten him again, sasuke couldn’t. Is that the technique itself (hiraishin & sasuke s/t) or is the issue chakra and perhaps prowess with s/t techniques.
Anyhoo a further advantage Sasuke has is unpredictability. Nobody will know his range off the bat, one’s you are within it, you are marked. An opponent will literally walk within sasuke’s range unknowingly and see his head fly off his neck. With hiraishin tags has to be administered, something that opponent’s will obviously notice as it can seen, with sasuke’s it cannot be.
Ill stop now. Doesn't appear either party is goin to reach an understanding which isn't exactly surprising
FleeOnSight
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Madara Uzumaki Uchiha
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Sasukes technique is much more battle ready than minato's
Minato has to mark his openent and can only warp to specific locations.
Sasuke can warp anywhere within the vicinity. Furthermore, Sasuke can teleport things other than himself without any handsealess- this aspect of his
Ability makes him more battle capable then minato.
-- if you are within his range, he can just warp you into his own attack-
So, sasukes ability is better in combat, while minato's has better mobility.
However by far, obito's is the best. It has no known range, comes with a private dimension,and allows
For intangibility.
Just wait, I am sure Sasuke is going to get more feats, making his teleportation the best.
The only advantage minato has over obito is the fact that his mark never dissapeares. So if he marks you, he wins. At worst, he could warp away- and then just wait a few hours. at three Am while you are in the shower he will warp to you and kill you.
Minato has to mark his openent and can only warp to specific locations.
Sasuke can warp anywhere within the vicinity. Furthermore, Sasuke can teleport things other than himself without any handsealess- this aspect of his
Ability makes him more battle capable then minato.
-- if you are within his range, he can just warp you into his own attack-
So, sasukes ability is better in combat, while minato's has better mobility.
However by far, obito's is the best. It has no known range, comes with a private dimension,and allows
For intangibility.
Just wait, I am sure Sasuke is going to get more feats, making his teleportation the best.
The only advantage minato has over obito is the fact that his mark never dissapeares. So if he marks you, he wins. At worst, he could warp away- and then just wait a few hours. at three Am while you are in the shower he will warp to you and kill you.
Great Master Minato
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FTG > Sasuke's Rinne Teleportation & Double Kamui In Term Of Speed...This Is Fact! But Haters Gonna Hate...
Megatolium
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Come on, not hating but Sasuke doesn't use teleportation, it's simply Body Flicker, he just using it really well.
He used it at the beginning of Shippuden to jump to Naruto's side.
He used it against that Curse Mark Test subject in the Southern Hideout.
He used it against Tobi when he fought Deidara.
And I could go on and on, he is fast, but it's a burst technique, Shunshin no Jutsu.
He used it at the beginning of Shippuden to jump to Naruto's side.
He used it against that Curse Mark Test subject in the Southern Hideout.
He used it against Tobi when he fought Deidara.
And I could go on and on, he is fast, but it's a burst technique, Shunshin no Jutsu.