Proof what Itachi and Kisame said about Jiraiya was BS!

[B00m]

The scan is pretty clear. This has nothing to do with what Naruto can do. Jiraiya cannot use SM without the Toads - he admits it, and the Sage Toads point it out rather explicitly.

Yet the scan shows no toads on Jiraiya's shoulders in the flashback Pa mentions. As another said he uses them for constant chakra gathering to maintain SM.

Again as others have said Itachi HIMSELF said it would end in a tie. Pein said he'd lose if he knew their secret of bodies. You can't argue these statements/"facts" really.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

lok they went all the way across the country to capture a kid just to turn around. If they could have beaten him why turn around when naruto was right in their sight

Yes they did! You knw why? Coz Itachi was a Konoha spy and never intended to capture Naruto to begin with. Manga proof is everywhere, because in Shippuden, Itachi has a one on one easy chance to capture Naruto, and wat does he do? He has a chat with Naruto about his little brother Sasuke, and then gives him the most powerful doujutsu (Shisui's eye) as a parting gift instead of capturing him. You also know why? Coz Kisame says that he and Itachi's power pales against a SANNIN, not against Jiraiya in particular. Which is obvious plot hole since Kisame and the rest of Akatsuki had no such fear for Orochimaru, in fact, it was the other way around. And they ALL knew that Itachi pawned a sannin, Orochimaru. Furthermore, even before they met Jman, Itachi had already shown his intention NOT to kill any Konoha shinobi. The first thing he says to Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma is that he they should let them be on their way cause he doesn't want to have to kill them. That there already says it all. And if that aint enough, Kakashi also notes that Itachi could have easily killed him when he caught him in tsukiyomi, and then asks himself why he didn't? And if that still aint enough for you, there's also the fact that Tobi revealed Itachi's REAL intention for going to Konoha to Sasuke, which was to warn Danzo and the elders to keep their hands off Sasuke now that Hiruzen was no longer alive. If you dispute these clear manga facts then you're completely dilusional. Lying and cheating to get your way/complete your mission was established in part one as the basics of shinobi principle, that's what Itachi was doing. His words were obvious lies and misdirection as manga later reveals and supports.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

that was my post that you had quoted and i was refering to jiriaya. i was just trying to make a point that sometimes there can be multiple takes on speculation. But the manga fact was that jman was a beast. If they didnt mean what they said then they would have finished what they were set out to do and capture naruto. Nowhere in the manga did they go back and say just kidding. i feel like honestly jiriaya was as strong as everyone said. I mean if it was kakasi there instead you think the outcome would ave been different?

Dude Tobi already revealed that Itachi went there with no intention to capture Naruto, but to warn Danzo and the elders to lay off Sasuke. And that Itachi was a Konoha spy. That's already enough evidence that Itachi had no intention to capture Naruto. This had nothing to do with Jiraiya being strong, it was Itachi fulfilling his mission for Konoha. Kisame even was suspicious when they retreated, asking Itachi why they were running away and Itachi made an excuse about his eyes.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

Itachi was a True shinobi of the leaf village. So he wouldnt want to kill a Sannin. But come on now. Jiraya only lost to pain cause he is on GOD levels. and he still managed to take out 3 paths with no intel what so ever! I think he could take out kisame. But against Itachi is a real tough one cause Jirayas frogs have sound Genjutsu which we already know is effective against Itachi (Kabuto's Tayuta flue Jutsu)

Can't give Jiraiya taking out the three Peins as a feat, simply because he was ALLOWED to take out the Peins. Pein had already realised it was a trap, and he triggered the trap intentionally because he had already summoned the other paths while Jiraiya was hiding. The 3 Peins were sacrificed in order to get Jiraiya to loosen his guard , and Pein didn't need Jiraiya to loosen his guard coz he was strong, he needed him to loosen his guard cause he was a cowered that kept running away. Jiraiya was running away from him the whole fight, even after finally getting into sage mode, he fought for a few seconds and realised he was going to lose if he kept it up (his and pa's own words), and then wat did he do? He ran away into the tunnels again. Pa also confirms that the 3 peins were sacrificed because the other Peins were already summoned before Pein triggered the trap. So plz, that's not a feat, if Pein wanted, he could have simply avoided the trap by sending his animal summons into the tunnel instead of the three Peins, he needed to get the coward to stop running, and to do that, he had to fake his death by letting Jiraiya kill the three Peins. Having said that, I'll give Jiraiya full credit for capturing and killing animal path the second time. That one was legitimate, it was perfectly reasoned out because only that particular path was completely useless inside his toad barrier (can't summon from inside the toad barrier) whereas the other paths would have still been dangerous even inside the barrier and prob would have killed him.

 

[End of Days]

Not surprised such garbage thread comes from you

 

[shelke]

That scan is clear, Jiraiya can make Sage chakra but can't balance it perfectly, so he can use Sage Mode without the Ni Dai Sennin as shown.

Dude, seriously. I don't really care about the rest of the opinions here, but the scan is dead on - he cannot use SM without the toads, so whether he can enter it or not remains completely irrelevant and pointless.

Yet the scan shows no toads on Jiraiya's shoulders in the flashback Pa mentions. As another said he uses them for constant chakra gathering to maintain SM.

Again as others have said Itachi HIMSELF said it would end in a tie. Pein said he'd lose if he knew their secret of bodies. You can't argue these statements/"facts" really.

Sage Toad: You should learn to use SM on your own.
Jiraiya: I cannot, I am still a tadpole compared to you guys.

He cannot use SM on his own. No use slinking and dancing around the arguments. It's a clear cut dialogue.

The second para: all speculation. Do show me Jiraiya's counters to Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu alone with SM or without it.

 

[Mr SwizZz]

1. Itachi was in Akatsuki working for Konoha, no reason to kill a Sannin and one of konoha's strongest ninja
2. Jiraiya was the main man back then he needed some hype too

 

[DeDoll]

I don't remember J-dawg being bad against genjutsu. In fact, he taught Naruto how to dispel them.

Yea and check manga he told he is kinda bad too.

 

[DeDoll]

Okey you can say Jman > Itachi.

Because Itachi said so.
But Itachi was spy of leaf. So he may lie about it or not.
But what itachi said you taking it like 100% true. You dont have logic i guess.

 

[UltimateDeadpool]

Yes they did! You knw why? Coz Itachi was a Konoha spy and never intended to capture Naruto to begin with. Manga proof is everywhere, because in Shippuden, Itachi has a one on one easy chance to capture Naruto, and wat does he do? He has a chat with Naruto about his little brother Sasuke, and then gives him the most powerful doujutsu (Shisui's eye) as a parting gift instead of capturing him. You also know why? Coz Kisame says that he and Itachi's power pales against a SANNIN, not against Jiraiya in particular. Which is obvious plot hole since Kisame and the rest of Akatsuki had no such fear for Orochimaru, in fact, it was the other way around. And they ALL knew that Itachi pawned a sannin, Orochimaru. Furthermore, even before they met Jman, Itachi had already shown his intention NOT to kill any Konoha shinobi. The first thing he says to Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma is that he they should let them be on their way cause he doesn't want to have to kill them. That there already says it all. And if that aint enough, Kakashi also notes that Itachi could have easily killed him when he caught him in tsukiyomi, and then asks himself why he didn't? And if that still aint enough for you, there's also the fact that Tobi revealed Itachi's REAL intention for going to Konoha to Sasuke, which was to warn Danzo and the elders to keep their hands off Sasuke now that Hiruzen was no longer alive. If you dispute these clear manga facts then you're completely dilusional. Lying and cheating to get your way/complete your mission was established in part one as the basics of shinobi principle, that's what Itachi was doing. His words were obvious lies and misdirection as manga later reveals and supports.

It was Itachi's idea to go after Naruto, they were supposed to go after Gaara.

Itachi was going to let Kisame chop off Naruto's limbs, good thing Jiraiya showed up.

Itachi told Sasuke to kill Naruto.

Itachi had no reason to lie about being Jiraiya's equal. He could had said he was weaker, and Kisame was hesitant about going after Naruto, that was Itachi's way out.

Akatsuki wanted to kill Orochimaru, but it was questionable if they could. Deidara wanted to kill Orochimaru, but he also wanted to kill Itachi. There are always dreamers. Kakashi was also scared shitless of Orochimaru, but didn't blink twice against Itachi.

Itachi didn't pwn a Sannin. Orochimaru was dying amd had no killing intent, Itachi just stopped the soul transfer.

Couldn't Itachi had beaten Jiraiya without killing him, just as he did Kakashi? The clear answer is no.

Kakashi was delirious, he forgot that Itachi told Kisame to kill him.

Obito was lying. He made it sound like Itachi didn't complete his mission by letting Sasuke live, but it was actually Danzo's idea.

You're calling people delusional, but why is it so hard for you to believe that Jiraiya could be Itachi's equal? He one-shotted Konan, nearly one-shotted Kisame, beat KN4 in Base, and had the capacity to beat Nagato.

Dude, seriously. I don't really care about the rest of the opinions here, but the scan is dead on - he cannot use SM without the toads, so whether he can enter it or not remains completely irrelevant and pointless.



Sage Toad: You should learn to use SM on your own.
Jiraiya: I cannot, I am still a tadpole compared to you guys.

He cannot use SM on his own. No use slinking and dancing around the arguments. It's a clear cut dialogue.

The second para: all speculation. Do show me Jiraiya's counters to Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu alone with SM or without it.

The hypocrisy is that you are using an older manga page to try to correct a newer manga page.

Jiraiya CAN use Sage Mode on his own, the Ni Dai Sennin just give him infinite Sage Mode. It was explicitly explained in the scan I showed you.

Tsukiyomi: Jiraiya can avoid eye contact, Kakashi and Sasuke were able to fight against it with their will and Jiraiya forced himself back to life.
Amaterasu: Jiraiya can dodge or counter it, he can also seal it.

What can Itachi do about Underworld Swamp, Food Cart Destroyer, Frog Conversion, Flattened Silhouette Manipulation, Frog Song, etc.?

Okey you can say Jman > Itachi.

Because Itachi said so.
But Itachi was spy of leaf. So he may lie about it or not.
But what itachi said you taking it like 100% true. You dont have logic i guess.

Lack logic, eg?

Itachi had no reason to lie about being Jiraiya's equal. If he wanted to lie, he could had said he was weaker and avoided going after Naruto... he didn't.

Here was basically Itachi's conversation with Kisame:
Kisame "I am not sure if we should go after Naruto, I'm not in Jiraiya's league and I don't know if you can beat him."
Itachi "I am just as powerful as Jiraiya, we're going."

The real problem here is that you don't want to believe that Jiraiya and Itachi are equals, because you are biased.

 

[benzy]

J-Man Solos . Manga facts . Shelke is solosed from the manga . Deal with it .

 

[shelke]

The hypocrisy is that you are using an older manga page to try to correct a newer manga page.

Jiraiya CAN use Sage Mode on his own, the Ni Dai Sennin just give him infinite Sage Mode. It was explicitly explained in the scan I showed you.

Tsukiyomi: Jiraiya can avoid eye contact, Kakashi and Sasuke were able to fight against it with their will and Jiraiya forced himself back to life.
Amaterasu: Jiraiya can dodge or counter it, he can also seal it.

What can Itachi do about Underworld Swamp, Food Cart Destroyer, Frog Conversion, Flattened Silhouette Manipulation, Frog Song, etc.?

You are going to have to do better than that. The dialogue is clear and all you are doing is being biased and not accepting something which Jiraiya himself stated. He cannot use SM without the toads, period. Not matter how many times to try and veer this argument in your favour, it's not going to work.

There is no such thing as infinite SM. Where dd you get this from? As soon as the user's chakra hits zero, SM ends there and then.

Tsukyomi: Where has Jiraiya ever shown to fight in this manner?

Amatersu: Once it's used on him, he seals it?

Swamp: Easily dealt with with Amaterasu straight on Jiraiya before he even attempts it.

Already told you about Swamp. Food Cart destroyer is summoning and it can be dealt with before Jiariya actually slaps the ground to summon. Frog song takes ages. I suggest you reread the pein fight to get the full low down. Itachi is on another level compared to Jiraiya. The tier difference is pretty vast that it's not even funny.

 

[salamander uchiha]

YOu do realize that pain himself siad that if Jiraiya had known their secret he would have lost to him. Even in Part I Jiraiya had SM. With the mountain frog digesting everything Naruto and Sasuke being there, and all. i think still Jiraiya would have won. of course Naruto and Sasuke would have hindered his ability to fight as he would have had to protect them from Itachi and Kisame.

But yeah back up would have helped if other Akatusuki would have come to aid them...though Jiraiya is strong, but not strong enoug to take on Kisame, itachi, and additional Aakatsuki.

Jiraiya has 0 counters to chikbaku tensei, konoha flattening push or soul rip pein was just talking bs cause kishi wanted to hype a sannin.

 

[salamander uchiha]

Tobi told it how it was. Itachi used capturing nardo as an excuse to remind danzo he still exists.
Jiraiya loses low difficulty he has 0 counters to kisames dome thing. And Otachi solo's on eye contact alone jiraiya is weaker than orochimaru against genjutsu and would gt solo'd itachi amaterasus the toads and mount fodders. And then precedes to totsuka them. And if necessary makes Jiraiya solo hisself with shisuis eyes.
Everybody knows Itachi solos them as Tibi gives the real reason for itachi nt doing it. A shinobi of itachis calibre if he was there to capture naruto he would at least kill those whod gt in his way or cripple them. The fact he didnt kill any of the konoha nins clearly shows he didnt intend too.

 

[UltimateDeadpool]

You are going to have to do better than that. The dialogue is clear and all you are doing is being biased and not accepting something which Jiraiya himself stated. He cannot use SM without the toads, period. Not matter how many times to try and veer this argument in your favour, it's not going to work.

There is no such thing as infinite SM. Where dd you get this from? As soon as the user's chakra hits zero, SM ends there and then.

Tsukyomi: Where has Jiraiya ever shown to fight in this manner?

Amatersu: Once it's used on him, he seals it?

Swamp: Easily dealt with with Amaterasu straight on Jiraiya before he even attempts it.

Already told you about Swamp. Food Cart destroyer is summoning and it can be dealt with before Jiariya actually slaps the ground to summon. Frog song takes ages. I suggest you reread the pein fight to get the full low down. Itachi is on another level compared to Jiraiya. The tier difference is pretty vast that it's not even funny.

Fukasaku said differently. I wouldn't care if Jiraiya couldn't use Sage Mode without the toads, I didn't think he could at first either. But the facts are that during Naruto's Sage training, Fukasaku was very explicit in the details of Sage Mode's mechanics, something we weren't aware of before, and used Jiraiya as an example. End result, Jiraiya CAN use Sage Mode without the toads, Fukasaku said he can AND Jiraiya is depicted doing so.
Fukasaku said that Jiraiya can make Sage chakra, but could not balance it perfectly so he gained some toad-like features, but he could still achieve Sage Mode and didn't turn into a statue. Not the Ni Dai Sennin doing it for Jiraiya, it is Jiraiya himself. The the Ni Dai Sennin were only there to act as senjutsu batteries to bypass the time limit. That was explicitly stated.
As for Jiraiya's and the Ni Dai Sennin's conversation earlier, either it was retconned or it had a very different meaning. Perhaps they wanted Jiraiya to use Sage Mode on his own, without summoning them, as they seemed annoyed.
Why are you completely refusing to believe what is right in front of your eyes, and even using OLD evidence to try to disprove NEW evidence. Why does it bother you so much for Jiraiya to be able to use it on his own, anyway?

Tsukiyomi: Where has Jiraiya ever been shown to sit and have a staring contest with his opponents? It is 100% possible to fight someone without making eye contact, many characters have managed to do it against a Sharingan user.

Amaterasu: If under the circumstance that Jiraiya is actually hit, you mean? Amaterasu does slow damage, Jiraiya can quickly seal it if the need arises.

Swamp: This takes a LOT of assumptions. For one, you forget that Itachi can't just use Amaterasu immediately, he has to close his eye and build up chakra, in the meantime blood starts pouring down his face. Then you're assuming Jiraiya remains stationary. Amaterasu does not burn quickly, Itachi will still be submerged and Jiraiya can seal it.

No, Food Cart Destroyer cannot be dealt with so easily. A clap of the hands and Itachi's has a toad summoned where he's standing, and Jiraiya isn't an unmoving rock. Jiraiya fighting and stalling Itachi can give the Ni Dai Sennin the time needed to complete it, just as Jiraiya did against Pein. Itachi is not on another level, there is nothing vast about it. YOU are being biased.

Now what about Flattened Silhouette Manipulation, or Frog Conversion?

Jiraiya has 0 counters to chikbaku tensei, konoha flattening push or soul rip pein was just talking bs cause kishi wanted to hype a sannin.

Naruto got out.

For soul rip to work, Pein has to grab Jiraiya. Getting that close to Jiraiya is a bad idea, and he's not a Jinchuuriki so Nagato can't just absorb Jiraiya's chakra and weaken him... if fact, it will turn him to stone.

Kishimoto says Jiraiya would win, it really doesn't matter what you believe.

Tobi told it how it was. Itachi used capturing nardo as an excuse to remind danzo he still exists.
Jiraiya loses low difficulty he has 0 counters to kisames dome thing. And Otachi solo's on eye contact alone jiraiya is weaker than orochimaru against genjutsu and would gt solo'd itachi amaterasus the toads and mount fodders. And then precedes to totsuka them. And if necessary makes Jiraiya solo hisself with shisuis eyes.
Everybody knows Itachi solos them as Tibi gives the real reason for itachi nt doing it. A shinobi of itachis calibre if he was there to capture naruto he would at least kill those whod gt in his way or cripple them. The fact he didnt kill any of the konoha nins clearly shows he didnt intend too.

Except Itachi was supposed to go after Gaara, not Naruto.
Kisame says you're wrong, for one. For two, Jiraiya has toads, Sage Mode, and can turn Kisame to stone.
There was an entire clan that dominated the Uchihas, there are many ninjas that have managed to fight against the Sharingan just fine. You are overhyping the Sharingan.
Jiraiya is not weak against genjutsu, he's weak at using genjutsu. Huge difference.
Faileratsu, you mean? Totsuka has only hit cripples. Itachi cannot use Koto Amatsukami.
No, only the tards believe Itachi solos.

 

[Darkakatsuki]

Fukasaku said differently. I wouldn't care if Jiraiya couldn't use Sage Mode without the toads, I didn't think he could at first either. But the facts are that during Naruto's Sage training, Fukasaku was very explicit in the details of Sage Mode's mechanics, something we weren't aware of before, and used Jiraiya as an example. End result, Jiraiya CAN use Sage Mode without the toads, Fukasaku said he can AND Jiraiya is depicted doing so.
Fukasaku said that Jiraiya can make Sage chakra, but could not balance it perfectly so he gained some toad-like features, but he could still achieve Sage Mode and didn't turn into a statue. Not the Ni Dai Sennin doing it for Jiraiya, it is Jiraiya himself. The the Ni Dai Sennin were only there to act as senjutsu batteries to bypass the time limit. That was explicitly stated.
As for Jiraiya's and the Ni Dai Sennin's conversation earlier, either it was retconned or it had a very different meaning. Perhaps they wanted Jiraiya to use Sage Mode on his own, without summoning them, as they seemed annoyed.
Why are you completely refusing to believe what is right in front of your eyes, and even using OLD evidence to try to disprove NEW evidence. Why does it bother you so much for Jiraiya to be able to use it on his own, anyway?

Tsukiyomi: Where has Jiraiya ever been shown to sit and have a staring contest with his opponents? It is 100% possible to fight someone without making eye contact, many characters have managed to do it against a Sharingan user.

Amaterasu: If under the circumstance that Jiraiya is actually hit, you mean? Amaterasu does slow damage, Jiraiya can quickly seal it if the need arises.

Swamp: This takes a LOT of assumptions. For one, you forget that Itachi can't just use Amaterasu immediately, he has to close his eye and build up chakra, in the meantime blood starts pouring down his face. Then you're assuming Jiraiya remains stationary. Amaterasu does not burn quickly, Itachi will still be submerged and Jiraiya can seal it.

No, Food Cart Destroyer cannot be dealt with so easily. A clap of the hands and Itachi's has a toad summoned where he's standing, and Jiraiya isn't an unmoving rock. Jiraiya fighting and stalling Itachi can give the Ni Dai Sennin the time needed to complete it, just as Jiraiya did against Pein. Itachi is not on another level, there is nothing vast about it. YOU are being biased.

Now what about Flattened Silhouette Manipulation, or Frog Conversion?



Naruto got out.

For soul rip to work, Pein has to grab Jiraiya. Getting that close to Jiraiya is a bad idea, and he's not a Jinchuuriki so Nagato can't just absorb Jiraiya's chakra and weaken him... if fact, it will turn him to stone.

Kishimoto says Jiraiya would win, it really doesn't matter what you believe.



Except Itachi was supposed to go after Gaara, not Naruto.
Kisame says you're wrong, for one. For two, Jiraiya has toads, Sage Mode, and can turn Kisame to stone.
There was an entire clan that dominated the Uchihas, there are many ninjas that have managed to fight against the Sharingan just fine. You are overhyping the Sharingan.
Jiraiya is not weak against genjutsu, he's weak at using genjutsu. Huge difference.
Faileratsu, you mean? Totsuka has only hit cripples. Itachi cannot use Koto Amatsukami.
No, only the tards believe Itachi solos.

Lol! Stop lying! When was it said that Kisame and Itachi were supposed to go after Gaara? That's bull! Itachi's target was the Kyubi, even in Shippuden, after Kisame captures Roshi, he asked Itachi when he is going to go after the Kyubi again. Gaara was Deidara's target, not Itachi's.

 

[UltimateDeadpool]

Lol! Stop lying! When was it said that Kisame and Itachi were supposed to go after Gaara? That's bull! Itachi's target was the Kyubi, even in Shippuden, after Kisame captures Roshi, he asked Itachi when he is going to go after the Kyubi again. Gaara was Deidara's target, not Itachi's.

When Itachi and Kisame first appeared standing on the wall of Konoha, Kisame said that Gaara has left.

Why would they care about Gaara if their target is Naruto?

Why would they go after Naruto first if Kurama has to be sealed last?