Raiton Chakra (cutting) vs. Tsunade's Durability

[Strict]

Did Raikage cut the Bijuu's horn? - yes
Did Raikage cut the Buddha's hand? - yes
Did Raikage cut his own arm? - yes

Yet they want to justify their arguments with plot. Say that Ay would've had cut Madara.

This isn't a plot fight.

In a plot fight, Madara's Susanoo stabbed Tsunade's body several times instead of bisecting it.
In a plot fight, Madara's Susanoo drops Ay and then tries to hit him [

You must be registered for see links

], instead of directly crushing him like displayed by Susanoo already [

You must be registered for see links

].

Ay can cut things. If raw power won't put Tsunade down, in non plot fight, Ay will use anything he got to beat the opponent.

 

[paratise]

Sometimes i think if Tsunade's power is plot protected, i mean if it was not what's stopping people like Mifune, Temari, Lee, Hanzo, A, Gai, 3T Kakashi to beat her in a deserted place or water (where ground pound does not happen)?

Things would be different if manga was more gruesome.

 

[Black Wolf]

Its a magatama... Either what you're saying its true or Tsunade's durability is being ignored here.
Only Kishi knows, but i don't remember being stated anywhere that the size of a magatama decides its power. Ever.

Pretty intuitive, unless you think a normal Rasengan is the same as a Chou Odama Rasengan, or that getting hit by a small shuriken is the same thing as getting hit by Sasuke's bigger variants of shuriken.

Mabui blatantly said her body would be "ripped to shreads" assuming she was the average shinobi. And happened to her after teleportation? She got mild cuts randomly around her body. There's a big difference.
If this isn't a display of above average durability i don't know what is. Not being = to the Raikages in terms of durability doesn't mean one isn't durable at all.

"Ripped to shreds" is an exaggeration of the jutsu's effect in hopes of mitigating the chances of Tsunade actually attempting it. It would be like taking the statement that Raikiri could cut through lightning, and pretty much anything, literally.

It also shows a complete lack of understanding of her own jutsu. She claimed that the 4th Raikage might be damaged by it, yet he emerges completely unharmed without a single scratch.

That's literally made up, his words are very clear. A normal human would be stopped cold from the lack of breath, then he noticed that was because he couldn't slice deep enough.
He never mentioned "how much he had to put into his scalpel", nothing.

Didn't make up anything. He outright said "is it because of her fat breasts." He misjudged the amount of power he had to put into his scalpel relative to the thickness of the person he was attacking. That isn't durability, just increased depth.

Three feet depth of cotton is still cotton. If you swing your sword only halfway through, and cotton is still left uncut, is the cotton durable? No, you just didn't swing deep enough to make it cut all the way through. Same idea here, and we know Kabuto was holding back because they were trying to keep Tsunade alive to heal Orochimaru.

So? This is a drawn manga, the laws of nature aren't precise and can be ignored. Its not like humans can jump from three to three or spit fire either.

You were the one who brought in real life examples in the first place, and now you're pulling the "its a drawn manga" card.

That's also made up.
Raiton Cloak doesn't allow one to cut. What he had covering his hands (and the rest of his body) was a Raiton Cloak, not this 'cutting Raiton'.
His attacks rely solely on power, it doesn't matter if it resembles a cutting motion, the best he can do with a chop is break bones until shown otherwise.

Burden of proof is on you. We have seen his chops cut three times, and I have no reason to believe one chop differs from another. The Raiton cloaking his body is unrefined armor, but the Raiton he focuses on his hands is more refined and can cut.

There's a reason why it overpowered Yamato's Mokuton, Raiton > Doton (i know he has Mokuton but its a low quality version and the Suiton component doesn't help either). And it wasn't really cut, more like destroyed. Chidori Nagashi doesn't cut, it stuns.

What does Raiton being > Doton have anything to do with Mokuton? A fused element is an entirely new element; you can't break it down into it's parts and address them independently. A fused element is more than the sum of its parts.

Nobody cares. But this is Ay vs Tsunade in disguise and that's what i'm working with.

It isn't Raikage vs. Tsunade at all. It is me trying to get an idea of why people think Tsunade is durable when she has shown no durability feats whatsoever, nor has she been hyped to be durable at any point in the manga. The Raikage's attack is being used here because it was the first thing that came to mind due to a recent debate.

Ay never showed nor cutting nor piercing power in battle, that's the problem. If you want to include every Raiton seen throughout the manga, i can stop right here and agree w/o second thought she can be cut with Raiton, but if what we're talking about here is Ay, then i 100% disagree.

Never said he showed piercing power. He showed cutting power several times - you are just ignoring them and writing them off as smashing type attacks.

It should be more complex than simple Raiton flow though, because its concentrated in a precise area and had to hold enough power to cut his onw body.

Burden of proof is on you.

All he did was deactivate his Raiton cloak and only left Raiton on his hand. Why keep his Raiton cloak on to make it harder to cut through himself? His Raiton cloak was tanking Chidori's - it should have no problem tanking his self-inflicted Raiton as well.

The chop he used against Susanoo held absolutely no cutting power behind it though and what happened to Hachibi's horn wasn't the result of a cut.

You saying it isn't doesn't make it true.

I meant raw power, not necessarily punches but mostly punches. We've seen him kick too, whatever. I was trying to make a point on his fighting style.
Random cracks were flying because he smashed it. Link me to a page where Sasuke's Susanoo presents cutting marks. What happened to him was exactly the same that happened to Madara.

Again, Susano'o isn't pliable. It either breaks / cracks, or it doesn't. You aren't going to have Susano'o getting cut cleanly in half without shatter marks.

Black Panther isn't featless though (

You must be registered for see links

), and you can tell Lighting Wolf isn't a cutting based Raiton (at least that's how i see it).

Black Panther is 100% featless. Darui launched it directly into the ocean - he did not have it land on any specific enemy. He utilized the paralyzing part of Raiton. The Raiton itself hit nobody directly.

Lightning Wolf is 100% featless as well. All we can assume is that it can paralyze, like all Raitons do. We have no idea if it can cut / bite / secondary effects.

"All" doesn't include exceptions which do exist and Ay is one of them (its not even what his character's fighting style is about).
Again, his chop isn't backed up by cutting power.

Provide proof.

What's the point of the selection exam though? I'm pretty sure the Raikage can handle himself w/o needing a equal to weaker partner to back him up.
Double Lariat is the main point of the AB combo's existance. Multiple characters have resisted Ay's punches, but how many could handle the AB combo?

"

You must be registered for see links

."

Are you comparing the width of an arm with a chest? Its not like his hand can cover an entire chest to rip it apart.
I need a link to these "two separate movements", because to me its seems like he just ran his hand through Zabuza's arm then into his chest.

How could he run it through his arm and then his chest? His arm is not in front of his chest, it is parallel to it. It would require two movements for that to happen.

Nobody said that. Better than a tentacle, yes. Unless you think Minato's kunai can split her as well.

Of course Minato's Kunai could split her, I have no reason to believe otherwise. It might not bisect her, but it can definitely behead her. Itachi could chop off Orochimaru's hand with an unenhanced kunai. Zabuza's chopped off Gato's head with a kunai in his mouth while having a dozen swords stuck inside him.

If Zabuza could chop off a head using a kunai in his mouth, I'm pretty sure Minato using his arms could at the very least do the same, if not more.

Kunais aren't going to be magically bouncing off anybody that isn't named Kakuzu, Kimimaro, the Raikages, or Juubi Jins.

She does, you just disregard them because you know the true strenght of her survivability lies in her regeneration. That's not a wrong thought at all, but keep in mind that she still needs some durability to back it up, otherwise her regeneration would be quite limited.

Except she hasn't shown any durability whatsoever nor has she been hyped or noted for it.

That's an edo body from a character with unkown durability. Doesn't exactly make Kakashi look astoudingly good.
Notice that it didn't even cut him fully even though the sword has enough size to do such thing.

No reason to believe Edo bodies are significantly less durable than a normal person's. Or that Kakashi didn't literally swing the sword from one end to the another and instead started at a midway point in the torso.

Those were not cutting attacks though.

You saying they aren't doesn't make them so.

No i didn't, stop doing that >_>
I said that's the element's main point and use.

And Raiton's main use has nothing to do with this topic. We are talking about Raiton's cutting potential, which it has plenty of feats of doing. Telling me Raiton is better at piercing is a completely irrelevant red herring.

Its the only way both showed to decapitate though. There's a reason why their combo exists and why they never even attempted to decapitate someone. Its not their style and its not a possibility considering their arsenal (which doesn't relly on cutting power).

So you think Killer Bee's Raiton enhanced sword, which matched Sasuke's Chidori flow, which has cutting feats, is incapable of decapitation? Even though we have seen weapons without chakra enhancements cut right through people before?

What matters here is Ay because Killer Bee has a Jinchuuriki to rely on. Forget about him.
There's absolutely nothing more efficient in Ay's arsenal than decapitation if he really wants to execute his opponent.

Raiton chop would work just fine.

 

[TheTailedSage]

I bet i could tell you who the two people were in the poll

 

[RicardoA]

Pretty intuitive, unless you think a normal Rasengan is the same as a Chou Odama Rasengan, or that getting hit by a small shuriken is the same thing as getting hit by Sasuke's bigger variants of shuriken.

Different things are different. Don't compare.
Until stated otherwise, i'll see all Magatamas as equals since nothing implies they're weaker.

"Ripped to shreds" is an exaggeration of the jutsu's effect in hopes of mitigating the chances of Tsunade actually attempting it. It would be like taking the statement that Raikiri could cut through lightning, and pretty much anything, literally.

It also shows a complete lack of understanding of her own jutsu. She claimed that the 4th Raikage might be damaged by it, yet he emerges completely unharmed without a single scratch.

Not at all, completely different. Mabui was bringing up facts, not hype. Its a fact that regular shinobi ended up dead and its a fact that only the 3rd Raikage could safely be teleported.

She wasn't sure because he's not the 3rd and never attempted to be teleported before. That doesn't invalidate her statement about previous experiments.

Didn't make up anything. He outright said "is it because of her fat breasts." He misjudged the amount of power he had to put into his scalpel relative to the thickness of the person he was attacking. That isn't durability, just increased depth.

Three feet depth of cotton is still cotton. If you swing your sword only halfway through, and cotton is still left uncut, is the cotton durable? No, you just didn't swing deep enough to make it cut all the way through. Same idea here, and we know Kabuto was holding back because they were trying to keep Tsunade alive to heal Orochimaru.

It doesn't matter where he hit her, what matters is his words (

You must be registered for see links

). Kishi is trying to say something there, regardeless of how nitpicking we want to be with details. Something she must have because any regular shinobi would be immediatly paralysed.
Going easy? He knew she was the best medical in the world and went directly for her neck (

You must be registered for see links

), he wasn't afraid to cause some serious injury at all.

You were the one who brought in real life examples in the first place, and now you're pulling the "its a drawn manga" card.

Ilustrating an example =/= strictly following the laws of nature. Consistency isn't something very abundant in a fictional work of this kind, and i don't see any problem with that.

Burden of proof is on you. We have seen his chops cut three times, and I have no reason to believe one chop differs from another. The Raiton cloaking his body is unrefined armor, but the Raiton he focuses on his hands is more refined and can cut.

Cut =/= break. The horn example i could understand the different interpretation, but Susanoo? Link to a page where Susanoo is scratched and not cracked?
How can you say the burden of proof is on me and then type what i highlighted in bold when this was never stated in the manga nor did he ever shown the ability to cut anything in that state?

What does Raiton being > Doton have anything to do with Mokuton? A fused element is an entirely new element; you can't break it down into it's parts and address them independently. A fused element is more than the sum of its parts.

Don't compare Yamato's low class copy with the real thing. There're similar cases throughout the manga (

You must be registered for see links

).

It isn't Raikage vs. Tsunade at all. It is me trying to get an idea of why people think Tsunade is durable when she has shown no durability feats whatsoever, nor has she been hyped to be durable at any point in the manga. The Raikage's attack is being used here because it was the first thing that came to mind due to a recent debate.

She has shown them though, but you have a different perception on what they are.

Never said he showed piercing power. He showed cutting power several times - you are just ignoring them and writing them off as smashing type attacks.

Neither did i said you did.
Because that's what they are and the only thing he has shown as of now. Its his fighting style.
He showed the ability to cut once (outside of a battle), i have a different perception on the horn's case and the Susanoo case doesn't portray any cutting power at all.

Burden of proof is on you.

All he did was deactivate his Raiton cloak and only left Raiton on his hand. Why keep his Raiton cloak on to make it harder to cut through himself? His Raiton cloak was tanking Chidori's - it should have no problem tanking his self-inflicted Raiton as well.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Why are you bringing his Raiton Cloak here?
How is the burden of proof on me? Links where he bisects his opponents in battle?

You saying it isn't doesn't make it true.

Fair enough.

Again, Susano'o isn't pliable. It either breaks / cracks, or it doesn't. You aren't going to have Susano'o getting cut cleanly in half without shatter marks.

Are you sure? (

You must be registered for see links

)(

You must be registered for see links

)
If it shatters its because it was smashed, not cutted. If a cutting attack holds enough power to cut it clean why would small pieces be flying around? That doesn't make sense to me.
Again, if what Ay did was cutting damage, Sasuke or Madara's Susanoo would be scratched, not smashed/cracked.

Black Panther is 100% featless. Darui launched it directly into the ocean - he did not have it land on any specific enemy. He utilized the paralyzing part of Raiton. The Raiton itself hit nobody directly.

Lightning Wolf is 100% featless as well. All we can assume is that it can paralyze, like all Raitons do. We have no idea if it can cut / bite / secondary effects.

It landed right on top of those Zetsus' heads :| What are you talking about?
It surely paralyses, other than that it should bite (at best). Fair enough.

Provide proof.

I can ask the same.
And i don't want the horn example, i want a battle example against a flexible, human character.

"

You must be registered for see links

."

And what do you think his full power is? The Double Lariat is the only way he can finish off an opponent in one shot via decapitation.

How could he run it through his arm and then his chest? His arm is not in front of his chest, it is parallel to it. It would require two movements for that to happen.

He could've still pierced it, it doesn't matter. A hand size piercing attack should (and is) more than enough to completely rip off an edo arm.

Of course Minato's Kunai could split her, I have no reason to believe otherwise. It might not bisect her, but it can definitely behead her. Itachi could chop off Orochimaru's hand with an unenhanced kunai. Zabuza's chopped off Gato's head with a kunai in his mouth while having a dozen swords stuck inside him.

If Zabuza could chop off a head using a kunai in his mouth, I'm pretty sure Minato using his arms could at the very least do the same, if not more.

Kunais aren't going to be magically bouncing off anybody that isn't named Kakuzu, Kimimaro, the Raikages, or Juubi Jins.

Cutting an head =/= cutting an hand. Comparing Gato, a fragile civilian with Tsunade, who does have durability feats regardeless of much anyone wants to downplay them, doesn't make much sense. Plus, Zabuza was never a weakling.
I'm not saying she's invulneable, she would indeed get damaged, but beheading isn't something easy to achieve in this manga. This goes for any character.

Except she hasn't shown any durability whatsoever nor has she been hyped or noted for it.

I dount you really believe that.
How does surviving with only a few cuts something that would kill any regular shinobi (and only the Raikages can tank uninjured) doesn't count as a durability feat?

No reason to believe Edo bodies are significantly less durable than a normal person's. Or that Kakashi didn't literally swing the sword from one end to the another and instead started at a midway point in the torso.

See for yourself (

You must be registered for see links

) (

You must be registered for see links

).
At the end of the day, Kakashi couldn't get a clean cut on an edo body and Tsunade is still much better than that as far as we know.

You saying they aren't doesn't make them so.

This has already been adressed before.

And Raiton's main use has nothing to do with this topic. We are talking about Raiton's cutting potential, which it has plenty of feats of doing. Telling me Raiton is better at piercing is a completely irrelevant red herring.

I already said that doesn't matter. Why are you still clinging to that?
If this is about Ay, i don't see the point in bringing up other character's feats.

So you think Killer Bee's Raiton enhanced sword, which matched Sasuke's Chidori flow, which has cutting feats, is incapable of decapitation? Even though we have seen weapons without chakra enhancements cut right through people before?

He still used them to pierce Sasuke even when the intent was to kill. Maybe because they're better suited for that? Chidori is supposed to pierce as well. Just because it can cut it doesn't mean it can do it as effectively.

Raiton chop would work just fine.

That's why needs Bee to decapitate his opponents right? Decapitation > broken bones, regardeless of how you look at it.

 

[Draphsin]

Of course it can, it's a nature release that is designed to bisect.

Fire still burns her, water still drowns her, earth still crushes her, & wind would also split her in half, she's not immune to attacks.

 

[Black Wolf]

Different things are different. Don't compare.
Until stated otherwise, i'll see all Magatamas as equals since nothing implies they're weaker.

So according to you a small Magatama = large Magatama in strength?

Not at all, completely different. Mabui was bringing up facts, not hype. Its a fact that regular shinobi ended up dead and its a fact that only the 3rd Raikage could safely be teleported.

And isn't it allegedly fact that Raikiri can cut through lightning?

She wasn't sure because he's not the 3rd and never attempted to be teleported before. That doesn't invalidate her statement about previous experiments.

Expressing uncertainty about her own jutsu displays a lack of understanding of its mechanics.

Not to mention that the VIZ translation says "cut and torn apart" and what happened to Tsunade falls under the category of "cut and torn apart" as her entire body was covered in lacerations.

It doesn't matter where he hit her, what matters is his words (

You must be registered for see links

). Kishi is trying to say something there, regardeless of how nitpicking we want to be with details. Something she must have because any regular shinobi would be immediatly paralysed.

I'm not nitpicking anything. Misjudging the surface area through which you have to penetrate =/= target's durability.

If Kishimoto wanted to portray Tsunade as durable, he would have made it clear to us via character statements, feats, or hype. He gave us neither. All the durable people, on the other hand, have had their durability highlighted via statements, feats, and hype.

Going easy? He knew she was the best medical in the world and went directly for her neck (

You must be registered for see links

), he wasn't afraid to cause some serious injury at all.

"

You must be registered for see links

."

He was explicitly trying to keep her alive to heal Orochimaru's arms.

Ilustrating an example =/= strictly following the laws of nature. Consistency isn't something very abundant in a fictional work of this kind, and i don't see any problem with that.

It's called a double standard.

You first bring in a real life example to illustrate why chopping off the Hachibi's horn is not a cutting attack, but more akin to breaking an apple. You then link me to a video where a guy is twisting and turning the apple in multiple directions for over a minute, taking precision to break it in half. I take note of that, and you say "this is a manga, not real life."

Cut =/= break. The horn example i could understand the different interpretation, but Susanoo? Link to a page where Susanoo is scratched and not cracked?

Why would Susano'o "get scratched and not cracked"? Since when is this standard to which we hold cutting attacks? Why does it have to be "scratched" instead of cracked? The Raikage's attack had enough cutting power to crack Susano'o, not cut it all the way.

How can you say the burden of proof is on me and then type what i highlighted in bold when this was never stated in the manga nor did he ever shown the ability to cut anything in that state?

He has chopped off his arm, Bijuus, and Susano'o. Your only counter-argument for that is "they are not cutting attacks."

Don't compare Yamato's low class copy with the real thing (x). There're also other examples throughout the manga (

You must be registered for see links

).

Only difference between Yamato's and Hashirama's is size and scale - the composition is still the same, albeit smaller, as was the Raiton used to break it.

She has shown them though, but you have a different perception on what they are.

Not at all.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Why are you bringing his Raiton Cloak here?

Because you are stating "he had Raiton in a precise area." I said that it is no different than the chops he used when he had Raiton cloak activated and that him having it deactivated is for convenience of bypassing his own durability, not a necessity to use cutting Raiton.

How is the burden of proof on me? Links where he bisects his opponents in battle?

I don't need to. He bisected a Bijuu horn multiple times the size of a human. More than enough proof that he can do the same to a human.

Are you sure? (

You must be registered for see links

)(

You must be registered for see links

)

Why are you linking me a scan of the Raikage cutting right through Sasuke's Susano'o? I see no bending of the bones.

Susano'o bending at it's midsection does not display pliability of bones. Susano'o can bend its arms and legs too, just like humans can. I am specifically talking about its bone structure in relation to its attacks.

If it shatters its because it was smashed, not cutted. If a cutting attack holds enough power to cut it clean why would small pieces be flying around? That doesn't make sense to me.
Again, if what Ay did was cutting damage, Sasuke or Madara's Susanoo would be scratched, not smashed/cracked.

Still not sure where you are getting this idea that cuts only "scratch" instead of crack. If the object is not pliable, it will crack.

Sasuke Chidori'd a wall, with

You must be registered for see links

. Is Chidori a smashing attack too?

It landed right on top of those Zetsus' heads :| What are you talking about?
It surely paralyses, other than that it should bite (at best). Fair enough.

No it didn't.

You must be registered for see links

, no Zetsu in sight. It electrocuted the ocean, which in turn conducted the electricity and fried the Zetsu's to death.

I can ask the same.
And i don't want the horn example, i want a battle example against a flexible, human character.

You not accepting numerous cutting feats isn't my problem. I have given you the Raikage cutting off his own arm, a Bijuu horn, and Susano'o, none of which you find adequate.

And what do you think his full power is? The Double Lariat is the only way he can finish off an opponent in one shot via decapitation.

False.

Darui stated that

You must be registered for see links

.

He could've still pierced it, it doesn't matter. A hand size piercing attack should (and is) more than enough to completely rip off an edo arm.

Kakashi "pierced" Zabuza's arm off?

Regardless,

You must be registered for see links

.

Comparing Gato, a fragile civilian with Tsunade, who does have durability feats regardeless of much anyone wants to downplay them, doesn't make much sense. Plus, Zabuza was never a weakling.

Tsunade has displayed no durability feats whatsoever.

Cutting someone with a knife in your mouth with half a dozen swords in your gut is a lot more difficult than cutting them with your arm without being on your deathbed.

Shikimaru, not known for any physicality whatsoever (has a 2 in strength), nearly beheaded Hidan had the latter not dodged with an unenhanced knife. This is the same Hidan that could tank Futon Atsugai with nearly no damage whatsoever.

I dount you really believe that.
How does surviving with only a few cuts something that would kill any regular shinobi (and only the Raikages can tank uninjured) doesn't count as a durability feat?

Because I never took the jutsu's description of "tearing a person to shreds" literally.

And any Shinobi dying to the jutsu still pertains to Tsunade. If Tsunade did not immediately activate regeneration, she would have died as well. Her throat was slit, and had numerous other lacerations in her body. The blood she loses from a slit throat in addition to whatever other injuries she received throughout her body would have killed her without regeneration.

See for yourself (

You must be registered for see links

) (

You must be registered for see links

).

Hashirama and Tobirama were not brought anywhere near their full strength, as confirmed by Tobirama. Those two were explicitly stated to be weakened.

Meanwhile, you have Edo Madara blocking Tsunade's entry kick without having his arm torn off.

He still used them to pierce Sasuke even when the intent was to kill. Maybe because they're better suited for that? Chidori is supposed to pierce as well. Just because it can cut it doesn't mean it can do it as effectively.

Who cares if he used them to pierce Sasuke? He could have used them to slice just as well, if he wanted to. Doesn't change the fact that Killer Bee does not require the AB combo for decapitation.

That's why needs Bee to decapitate his opponents right? Decapitation > broken bones, regardeless of how you look at it.

Raiton chop to the neck will behead anybody not name 3rd Raikage or Juubi Jins, potentially Kimimaro.

 

[TRE MERCER]

The rock the smashed Obito can smash Tsunade she has shown no superior durability than the average Shinobi she just can heal.

 

[RicardoA]

So according to you a small Magatama = large Magatama in strength?

Why not? Same attack, different AoE.
That's how i see it until the manga states something different.

And isn't it allegedly fact that Raikiri can cut through lightning?

What are you talking about?

Expressing uncertainty about her own jutsu displays a lack of understanding of its mechanics.

Not to mention that the VIZ translation says "cut and torn apart" and what happened to Tsunade falls under the category of "cut and torn apart" as her entire body was covered in lacerations.

Don't take things out of contest. She wasn't sure about Ay for a reason, she never had doubts about anyone else. Her comment was also Kishi's way of hyping the audience for Tsunade's faith.
She wasn't torn apart though.

I'm not nitpicking anything. Misjudging the surface area through which you have to penetrate =/= target's durability.

If Kishimoto wanted to portray Tsunade as durable, he would have made it clear to us via character statements, feats, or hype. He gave us neither. All the durable people, on the other hand, have had their durability highlighted via statements, feats, and hype.

When Kishi tells you something directly through his characters and you still look at a situation judging every detail, you're nitpicking.
She's got character statements and feats, you just keep on disregarding them no matter how blatant they are.

"

You must be registered for see links

."

He was explicitly trying to keep her alive to heal Orochimaru's arms.

So, what was he trying to hit? Because right before striking he said the opposite (

You must be registered for see links

).

It's called a double standard.

You first bring in a real life example to illustrate why chopping off the Hachibi's horn is not a cutting attack, but more akin to breaking an apple. You then link me to a video where a guy is twisting and turning the apple in multiple directions for over a minute, taking precision to break it in half. I take note of that, and you say "this is a manga, not real life."

?
This manga isn't real life and i never mentioned precision, there're inconsistencies.
There're more reasons why i disregard that as a cut.

Why would Susano'o "get scratched and not cracked"? Since when is this standard to which we hold cutting attacks? Why does it have to be "scratched" instead of cracked? The Raikage's attack had enough cutting power to crack Susano'o, not cut it all the way.

Since when are cuts backed up by smashing power?
Again, there're other reasons why i disregard that as a cutting attack.

He has chopped off his arm, Bijuus, and Susano'o. Your only counter-argument for that is "they are not cutting attacks."

Not at all.
He chopped his arm outside of battle, i disagree with the horn and Susanoo was never cut to begin with.
Meanwhile you keep ignoring the existance of the double lariat among other things.

Only difference between Yamato's and Hashirama's is size and scale - the composition is still the same, albeit smaller, as was the Raiton used to break it.

Size doen't determine power. Hashirama's Mokuton can stop a TBB, Yamato's wood is destroyed everytime it gets a chance.
There're other examples of a single element overpowering a KKG.

Not at all.

Whatever you say.

Because you are stating "he had Raiton in a precise area." I said that it is no different than the chops he used when he had Raiton cloak activated and that him having it deactivated is for convenience of bypassing his own durability, not a necessity to use cutting Raiton.

Since when does the Raiton Cloak allows him to cut? It makes him faster and more durable, nothing else.

I don't need to. He bisected a Bijuu horn multiple times the size of a human. More than enough proof that he can do the same to a human.

Agree to disagree, this has been adressed multiple times.

Why are you linking me a scan of the Raikage cutting right through Sasuke's Susano'o? I see no bending of the bones.

Susano'o bending at it's midsection does not display pliability of bones. Susano'o can bend its arms and legs too, just like humans can. I am specifically talking about its bone structure in relation to its attacks.

Can't you see Sasuke's neck bending either? The bones were in between. How do you explain that?

Still not sure where you are getting this idea that cuts only "scratch" instead of crack. If the object is not pliable, it will crack.

Sasuke Chidori'd a wall, with

You must be registered for see links

. Is Chidori a smashing attack too?

Smashing involves strenght, cutting involves a sharp edge, both have different effects on a surface. You don't smash a wall with a knife.
Since when does Ay have Chidori? Different attack is different. It wasn't a clean attack and you can tell there is a certain AoE to it, the wall wasn't getting cut, nor smashed, it was getting destroyed. If anything it was being pierced along the way.

No it didn't.

You must be registered for see links

, no Zetsu in sight. It electrocuted the ocean, which in turn conducted the electricity and fried the Zetsu's to death.

Can't see the image :|
Rgardeless, i don't know where you got that idea from... (

You must be registered for see links

) (

You must be registered for see links

)

You not accepting numerous cutting feats isn't my problem. I have given you the Raikage cutting off his own arm, a Bijuu horn, and Susano'o, none of which you find adequate.

Not much to say about that, its all been adressed while the double lariat is being ignored.

False.

Darui stated that

You must be registered for see links

.

I didn't know Liger Bomb decapitated and was harder to avoid then a DL.

Kakashi "pierced" Zabuza's arm off?

Regardless,

You must be registered for see links

.

Yes, why not? The Sasuke example you provided earlier illustrated a perfect example of AoE in a similar attack.
Nobody said he couldn't. Ay doesn't have Raikiri though.

Tsunade has displayed no durability feats whatsoever.

Cutting someone with a knife in your mouth with half a dozen swords in your gut is a lot more difficult than cutting them with your arm without being on your deathbed.

Shikimaru, not known for any physicality whatsoever (has a 2 in strength), nearly beheaded Hidan had the latter not dodged with an unenhanced knife. This is the same Hidan that could tank Futon Atsugai with nearly no damage whatsoever.

She has, you just don't accept them.

Valid points. I just find it weird how no character (unless its irrelevant, an edo, or has got some sort of immortality) ever got rid off via decapitation.
Even the fastest ones never tried that.

Because I never took the jutsu's description of "tearing a person to shreds" literally.

And any Shinobi dying to the jutsu still pertains to Tsunade. If Tsunade did not immediately activate regeneration, she would have died as well. Her throat was slit, and had numerous other lacerations in her body. The blood she loses from a slit throat in addition to whatever other injuries she received throughout her body would have killed her without regeneration.

Don't compare (for example) "being as hot as the sun" to "be rip to shreads". Its very different, one its impossible, the other is not and can very well be taken literally. If anybody who got to the other side only had some lacerations, a medical team prepared beforehand would be able to save him/her. Its much worse than you think.

Hashirama and Tobirama were not brought anywhere near their full strength, as confirmed by Tobirama. Those two were explicitly stated to be weakened.

Meanwhile, you have Edo Madara blocking Tsunade's entry kick without having his arm torn off.

?
What does have to do with their bodies? That's like saying a 30% Kisame died to Asakujaku being he wasn't at full power.

Same goes for Ay's supposedly so dangerous attack. Also, does that make his arm > Susanoo?

Who cares if he used them to pierce Sasuke? He could have used them to slice just as well, if he wanted to. Doesn't change the fact that Killer Bee does not require the AB combo for decapitation.

Point? He still didn't, maybe because its not so easy as you think.
And he wasn't afraid to inflict serious damage, seeing as he later blown his chest off.

Raiton chop to the neck will behead anybody not name 3rd Raikage or Juubi Jins, potentially Kimimaro.

It shows...
That's why he called for Bee to decapitate Kisame (

You must be registered for see links

) and that's why nobody ever made a remark about his chops, only his raw strenght.

 

[RicardoA]

So according to you a small Magatama = large Magatama in strength?

Why not? Same attack, different AoE.
That's how i see it until the manga states something different.

And isn't it allegedly fact that Raikiri can cut through lightning?

What are you talking about? I don't understand your point.

Expressing uncertainty about her own jutsu displays a lack of understanding of its mechanics.

Not to mention that the VIZ translation says "cut and torn apart" and what happened to Tsunade falls under the category of "cut and torn apart" as her entire body was covered in lacerations.

Don't take things out of contest. She wasn't sure about Ay for a reason, she never had doubts about anyone else. Her comment was also Kishi's way of hyping the audience for Tsunade's faith.
She wasn't torn apart though.

I'm not nitpicking anything. Misjudging the surface area through which you have to penetrate =/= target's durability.

If Kishimoto wanted to portray Tsunade as durable, he would have made it clear to us via character statements, feats, or hype. He gave us neither. All the durable people, on the other hand, have had their durability highlighted via statements, feats, and hype.

When Kishi tells you something directly through his characters and you still look at a situation judging every detail, you're nitpicking.
She's got character statements and feats, you just keep on disregarding them no matter how blatant they are.

"

You must be registered for see links

."

He was explicitly trying to keep her alive to heal Orochimaru's arms.

So, what was he trying to hit? Because right before striking he said the opposite (

You must be registered for see links

).

It's called a double standard.

You first bring in a real life example to illustrate why chopping off the Hachibi's horn is not a cutting attack, but more akin to breaking an apple. You then link me to a video where a guy is twisting and turning the apple in multiple directions for over a minute, taking precision to break it in half. I take note of that, and you say "this is a manga, not real life."

?
This manga isn't real life and i never mentioned precision, there're inconsistencies.
There're more reasons why i disregard that as a cut.

Why would Susano'o "get scratched and not cracked"? Since when is this standard to which we hold cutting attacks? Why does it have to be "scratched" instead of cracked? The Raikage's attack had enough cutting power to crack Susano'o, not cut it all the way.

Since when are cuts backed up by smashing power?
Again, there're other reasons why i disregard that as a cutting attack.

He has chopped off his arm, Bijuus, and Susano'o. Your only counter-argument for that is "they are not cutting attacks."

Not at all.
He chopped his arm outside of battle, i disagree with the horn and Susanoo was never cut to begin with.
Meanwhile you keep ignoring the existance of the double lariat among other things.

Only difference between Yamato's and Hashirama's is size and scale - the composition is still the same, albeit smaller, as was the Raiton used to break it.

Size doen't determine power. Hashirama's Mokuton can stop a TBB, Yamato's wood is destroyed everytime it gets a chance.
There're other examples of a single element overpowering a KKG.

Not at all.

Whatever you say.

Because you are stating "he had Raiton in a precise area." I said that it is no different than the chops he used when he had Raiton cloak activated and that him having it deactivated is for convenience of bypassing his own durability, not a necessity to use cutting Raiton.

Since when does the Raiton Cloak allows him to cut? It makes him faster and more durable, nothing else.

I don't need to. He bisected a Bijuu horn multiple times the size of a human. More than enough proof that he can do the same to a human.

Agree to disagree, this has been adressed multiple times.

Why are you linking me a scan of the Raikage cutting right through Sasuke's Susano'o? I see no bending of the bones.

Susano'o bending at it's midsection does not display pliability of bones. Susano'o can bend its arms and legs too, just like humans can. I am specifically talking about its bone structure in relation to its attacks.

Can't you see Sasuke's neck bending either? The bones were in between. How do you explain that?

Still not sure where you are getting this idea that cuts only "scratch" instead of crack. If the object is not pliable, it will crack.

Sasuke Chidori'd a wall, with

You must be registered for see links

. Is Chidori a smashing attack too?

Smashing involves strenght, cutting involves a sharp edge, both have different effects on a surface. You don't smash a wall with a knife.
Since when does Ay have Chidori? Different attack is different. It wasn't a clean attack and you can tell there is a certain AoE to it, the wall wasn't getting cut, nor smashed, it was getting destroyed. If anything it was being pierced along the way.

No it didn't.

You must be registered for see links

, no Zetsu in sight. It electrocuted the ocean, which in turn conducted the electricity and fried the Zetsu's to death.

Can't see the image :|
Rgardeless, i don't know where you got that idea from... (

You must be registered for see links

) (

You must be registered for see links

)

You not accepting numerous cutting feats isn't my problem. I have given you the Raikage cutting off his own arm, a Bijuu horn, and Susano'o, none of which you find adequate.

Not much to say about that, its all been adressed while the double lariat is being ignored.

False.

Darui stated that

You must be registered for see links

.

I didn't know Liger Bomb decapitated and was harder to avoid then a DL.

Kakashi "pierced" Zabuza's arm off?

Regardless,

You must be registered for see links

.

Yes, why not? The Sasuke example you provided earlier illustrated a perfect example of AoE in a similar attack.
Nobody said he couldn't. Ay doesn't have Raikiri though.

Tsunade has displayed no durability feats whatsoever.

Cutting someone with a knife in your mouth with half a dozen swords in your gut is a lot more difficult than cutting them with your arm without being on your deathbed.

Shikimaru, not known for any physicality whatsoever (has a 2 in strength), nearly beheaded Hidan had the latter not dodged with an unenhanced knife. This is the same Hidan that could tank Futon Atsugai with nearly no damage whatsoever.

She has, you just don't accept them.

Valid points. I just find it weird how no character (unless its irrelevant, an edo, or has got some sort of immortality) ever got rid off via decapitation.
Even the fastest ones never tried that.

Because I never took the jutsu's description of "tearing a person to shreds" literally.

And any Shinobi dying to the jutsu still pertains to Tsunade. If Tsunade did not immediately activate regeneration, she would have died as well. Her throat was slit, and had numerous other lacerations in her body. The blood she loses from a slit throat in addition to whatever other injuries she received throughout her body would have killed her without regeneration.

Don't compare (for example) "being as hot as the sun" to "be rip to shreads". Its very different, one its impossible, the other is not and can very well be taken literally. If anybody who got to the other side only had some lacerations, a medical team prepared beforehand would be able to save him/her. Its much worse than you think.

Hashirama and Tobirama were not brought anywhere near their full strength, as confirmed by Tobirama. Those two were explicitly stated to be weakened.

Meanwhile, you have Edo Madara blocking Tsunade's entry kick without having his arm torn off.

?
What does have to do with their bodies? That's like saying a 30% Kisame died to Asakujaku beicause he wasn't at full power.

Same goes for Ay's supposedly so dangerous attack. Also, does that make his arm > Susanoo?

Who cares if he used them to pierce Sasuke? He could have used them to slice just as well, if he wanted to. Doesn't change the fact that Killer Bee does not require the AB combo for decapitation.

Point? He still didn't, maybe because its not so easy as you think.
And he wasn't afraid to inflict serious damage, seeing as he later blown his chest off.

Raiton chop to the neck will behead anybody not name 3rd Raikage or Juubi Jins, potentially Kimimaro.

It shows...
That's why he called for Bee to decapitate Kisame (

You must be registered for see links

) and that's why nobody ever made a remark about his chops, only his raw strenght.

 

[Black Wolf]

Pretty much done backtracking with you and your increasingly circular argument, mate.

This thread has served its purpose, which is to convince me I'm not crazy regarding the topic of Tsunade's durability. Poll 10 - 2, and thread responses are pretty much unanimous in agreeing that Tsunade cannot withstand the attack, with the exception of RicardoA and EvilOne.