[Discussion] Sasuke's attitude got me worried

shelke

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It's obvious you only watched half of what I said. I never asked for him to be romantic, I'm asking for him to be consequent.

If Sasuke really felt that Kakashi and Sakura were not going to make any difference, Sasuke should have just shut up and not explain anything.

I mean, I'd be ok if he did not explain the plan, or if he explained the plan without treating them like he did.

But no, Sasuke had to treat them like fodder "and then explain the plan". Why man? why the hell did he explain it in the end, if Sakura and Kakashi were supposedly useless?

That's anything but leadership.

So don't try to act cocky because my opinion was not of your liking. I have studied about the aspects of leadership in college and books. It's way too evident that Sasuke can be a good boss (to give orders to subordinates) but an awful leader (who can guide and inspire the subordinates).

PS: I think Sasuke is more like a *****. The last sugar daddy he attended was Hagoromo, who gave him some free power up.

What you ventured isn't exactly multi-layered and complex, so let's bring ourselves down to the ground. What is happening now has little to do with Leadership but the problem at hand, a very pressing and dangerous problem. They should be grateful that they are even being given refuge, given their present position in this war.

How impressive, because I have studied about Julius Caesar's Military leadership factors, along with Iranian leadership in the past - does that make me an apt candidate for commentary? Let's not talk about accomplishments here and stick to the topic. Your thread is subject to criticism, take it as such.

As for the topic, then your option is far from fact. Arrogance for a Prodigy who has the power now to change the course of battle is fairly just and earned. Even an ordinary man is not bereft of arrogance, you begrudging him this so that he can turn into the Universal hindquarter smoocher, Naruto, is hardly a valid point.
 

Glazebone

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Fact of the matter is we still have NO CLUE as to what Sasuke really wants.

Throughout his entire life, he's been after 2 things and 2 thing ONLY:
1. Revenge (brought up by hatred)
2. Power (in order to execute his revenge he needs power)

Basically he used Team 7, he used Kakashi (Kakashi taught him Chidori, which became his trademark ability), when Orochimaru entered the scene and after seeing Naruto getting stronger, he jumped ships and went to train with Orochimaru. Even when Sakura expressed her feelings and tried to keep him in the hidden leaf he responded, and I believe those were his words, : All I've ever wanted is revenge. In order to get that I need power. For a time I thought I could follow this path(aka Team 7) but now I know that will get me nowhere.

The battle between him and Naruto at the waterfall showed clearly that 'there was no going back'.

Afterwards he basically used Orochimaru to gain more power. Even while training under him, he was bossing him around. We clearly see that when Sai is introduced to him. And when Orochimaru is about to die, Sasuke murders him in cold-blood with 0 gratitude. He then gathers individuals who will 'help' him achieve his goal. He even said that "the one and only goal of his new team was the death of Itachi".

After achieving his revenge (even though Itachi totally handed him an ass-wooping), he felt empty. Why? Because revenge never brings you anything good. So he needed something new to keep him going. Luckily Tobi happens to know everything about Itachi and starts rambling. Now Sasuke wants to murder everyone in the Village for being what? Ignorant? At this point he is just a crazed, revenge-obsessed madman.

After learning that the leaf was destroyed by Pain, he needed something new. Luckily Tobi happens to be in the neighborhood and offers him the opportunity to murder dozen Samurai, not even involved in his blood-soaked life and attempt an assassination on the 5 Hokages, 4 of who btw had NOTHING to do with the death of his brother or the death of his clan.

Let's note that he totally left Suigetsu and Jugo for dead after the failed 5 Kage assassination.

Now let's look at how he murdered Danzou. What did he do? He ****ing pierced his subbordinate.

Now Sakura appears out of nowhere and wants to join Sasuke. He still admits he wishes to crush the leaf and even tries to backstab Sakura. He then proceeds to battle Kakashi and mock him every step of the way. Let's note his maniacle laughter. Even when Naruto uses his Talk No Jutsu on him, Sasuke appears to be the ONLY character in the Narutoverse who is immune to it. His new goal is to obliterate Naruto. Quite friendly if you ask me.

And after all that (even after meeting Itachi and still deciding to kill every innocent person in the Leaf) he is SOMEHOW influenced by a dead-man's life story?

His latest demeanor indicates he has a different goal than he lets out.

Excuse me for this long ramble but I wanted to summerise Sasuke's life so everyone could see how improbable his "change of heart" is. I would be totally satisfied with him dying somehow. Even if Naruto has to die too.
 
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shelke

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^ Now this is what I call a self-created rant - throw in a couple of emotional terms bereft of facts and one has got himself a winner post.
 

Mr Hiru

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^ Now this is what I call a self-created rant - throw in a couple of emotional terms bereft of facts and one has got himself a winner post.

I hope at least you see the incongruency in Sasuke's act in last chapter.

I mean, dude, this is "war". It's clear every implicated person needs information to do something.

If Sasuke thought they were not of any use, he should just shut up.

He clearly said that he was directing. Please, what direction? There is a huge difference between direct people and boss them around.

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This is the core of my criticism. This is the proof of Sasuke not being fit to be a Hokage. Can you see the face expression of the subordinates in the images?
 

Glazebone

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^ Now this is what I call a self-created rant - throw in a couple of emotional terms bereft of facts and one has got himself a winner post.

I just hope you read at least 10% of what I wrote. I even admitted it was a rant. And it's simply my opinion.
 

shelke

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I hope at least you see the incongruency in Sasuke's act in last chapter.

I mean, dude, this is "war". It's clear every implicated person needs information to do something.

If Sasuke thought they were not of any use, he should just shut up.

He clearly said that he was directing. Please, what direction? There is a huge difference between direct people and boss them around.

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This is the core of my criticism. This is the proof of Sasuke not being fit to be a Hokage. Can you see the face expression of the subordinates in the images?

Nothing but your subjective opinion, which won't alter anything on Kishimoto's part whether he wants to make him a Hokage or not. As for the scan then it's nice given that it doesn't amount to anything within a Militia set up, where no one bar Hashirama was ever selected via democratic means.

I just hope you read at least 10% of what I wrote. I even admitted it was a rant. And it's simply my opinion.

I read the entirety of your post. Took me hardly a minute to read it.
 

Mr Hiru

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Nothing but your subjective opinion, which won't alter anything on Kishimoto's part whether he wants to make him a Hokage or not. As for the scan then it's nice given that it doesn't amount to anything within a Militia set up, where no one bar Hashirama was ever selected via democratic means.

Well, my opinion is as important as any opinion in these forums, really. If you like it, good, if you don't, well that's also okay.

Doing criticism towards an opinion doesn't have any sense. But in the other way, you can do criticism towards logic.

I'm also doing criticism to that point. I'm asking "why the need of telling that he should not give information" and then "he gives it".

Or... maybe -considering Naruto's words- Sasuke spoke because Naruto got a point telling that Sakura or Kakashi could have a plan. People doesn't need a sharingan to create good plans... Kakashi and Sakura may not be as useless as Sasuke thought, and Naruto maybe reminded him about that.
 
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Fact of the matter is we still have NO CLUE as to what Sasuke really wants.

Throughout his entire life, he's been after 2 things and 2 thing ONLY:
1. Revenge (brought up by hatred)
2. Power (in order to execute his revenge he needs power)

Basically he used Team 7, he used Kakashi (Kakashi taught him Chidori, which became his trademark ability), when Orochimaru entered the scene and after seeing Naruto getting stronger, he jumped ships and went to train with Orochimaru. Even when Sakura expressed her feelings and tried to keep him in the hidden leaf he responded, and I believe those were his words, : All I've ever wanted is revenge. In order to get that I need power. For a time I thought I could follow this path(aka Team 7) but now I know that will get me nowhere.

The battle between him and Naruto at the waterfall showed clearly that 'there was no going back'.

Afterwards he basically used Orochimaru to gain more power. Even while training under him, he was bossing him around. We clearly see that when Sai is introduced to him. And when Orochimaru is about to die, Sasuke murders him in cold-blood with 0 gratitude. He then gathers individuals who will 'help' him achieve his goal. He even said that "the one and only goal of his new team was the death of Itachi".

After achieving his revenge (even though Itachi totally handed him an ass-wooping), he felt empty. Why? Because revenge never brings you anything good. So he needed something new to keep him going. Luckily Tobi happens to know everything about Itachi and starts rambling. Now Sasuke wants to murder everyone in the Village for being what? Ignorant? At this point he is just a crazed, revenge-obsessed madman.

After learning that the leaf was destroyed by Pain, he needed something new. Luckily Tobi happens to be in the neighborhood and offers him the opportunity to murder dozen Samurai, not even involved in his blood-soaked life and attempt an assassination on the 5 Hokages, 4 of who btw had NOTHING to do with the death of his brother or the death of his clan.

Let's note that he totally left Suigetsu and Jugo for dead after the failed 5 Kage assassination.

Now let's look at how he murdered Danzou. What did he do? He ****ing pierced his subbordinate.

Now Sakura appears out of nowhere and wants to join Sasuke. He still admits he wishes to crush the leaf and even tries to backstab Sakura. He then proceeds to battle Kakashi and mock him every step of the way. Let's note his maniacle laughter. Even when Naruto uses his Talk No Jutsu on him, Sasuke appears to be the ONLY character in the Narutoverse who is immune to it. His new goal is to obliterate Naruto. Quite friendly if you ask me.

And after all that (even after meeting Itachi and still deciding to kill every innocent person in the Leaf) he is SOMEHOW influenced by a dead-man's life story?

His latest demeanor indicates he has a different goal than he lets out.

Excuse me for this long ramble but I wanted to summerise Sasuke's life so everyone could see how improbable his "change of heart" is. I would be totally satisfied with him dying somehow. Even if Naruto has to die too.

love this but I want.sakura to be the one to poison him
 
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Sasuke is a really messed up kid.
Ever since putting Kabuto under Izanami, Sasuke's character has been underdeveloped compared to Naruto's for example. He feels really out of place right now.
 

xyungmili

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lol sasuke doesn't care lol. It's his character. Just like that guy up there ranted about, his whole life he has been possessed by revenge and negativity, why the hell would he to be nice when in reality, he isn't a nice guy?
What he said was factual and he still said the plan because he felt like it. Sasuke goes by his own rules.
 

shelke

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Well, my opinion is as important as any opinion in these forums, really. If you like it, good, if you don't, well that's also okay.

Doing criticism towards an opinion doesn't have any sense. But in the other way, you can do criticism towards logic.

I'm also doing criticism to that point. I'm asking "why the need of telling that he should not give information" and then "he gives it".

Or... maybe -considering Naruto's words- Sasuke spoke because Naruto got a point telling that Sakura or Kakashi could have a plan. People doesn't need a sharingan to create good plans... Kakashi and Sakura may not be as useless as Sasuke thought, and Naruto maybe reminded him about that.

I never implied that you shouldn't forward an opinion. Why would I tell you that? It's a forum and every opinion has a place here.

Kakashi and Sakura have little idea what limbo is. First, Sasuke will have to break down Madara's abilities to him and then wait for them to come up with a plan? Look at how volatile the situation is. Last time Sakura tried a diversion, she only created a burden for Naruto and Sasuke.

Kakashi doesn't even have that luxury. My point being - the course of the battle is changing way too fast. A second earlier Sasuke and Naruto were about to take on Madara and look what happened; a new third player just took over. Do you think it's viable to even waste a second of ones time on people that don't even know how Madara was functioning?

You may not agree with me, as it's your choice, but it seems unreasonable to me to try and weigh this down on Sasuke, when the situation warrants assertiveness.
 

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The way he acted just shows what a scared little girl he really is.
 

Mr Hiru

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You may not agree with me, as it's your choice, but it seems unreasonable to me to try and weigh this down on Sasuke, when the situation warrants assertiveness.

As I'm stating (like four times already), Sasuke could keep silence without giving them any information. I don't disagree with Sasuke keeping the information for himself. So stop saying that we don't agree in this point, that's perfectly rational if you ask me.

The problem is other:

- He treats them like fodders
- He says he is directing, and that they can't do anything, hence they don't need to know what's happening
- ...and after Naruto's speech, Sasuke speaks

Sasuke's course of action in that situation could mean death for Kakashi and Sakura, and by transitivity for Naruto. Why? Because from now on, if Kakashi and Sakura were not members of Team 7, they might consider not following Sasuke's direction since he doesn't have touch to socialize with people, ergo, he is not charismatic, Sasuke wouldn't convince people to do something. In the case of Naruto, Kakashi and Sakura not being members of the Team 7, Kakashi and Sakura going outside of the Susano would trigger Naruto going outside to save them and thus finishing the war.

We could see the situation in three variations.

1) The current case: "They don't need to know since they're powerless, but then Sasuke tells them".

Bad move. Very pragmatic, but extremely risky considering the presence of Naruto.

2) The case of staying shut: "Team 7 members wouldn't act without information and Naruto could stay collected".

3) The case of speaking without objections: Members of Team 7 would have the information as case 1, but Sasuke would be more charismatic, thus being more trustworthy and could lead with more ease the team.

As I said earlier, your description of the need of assertiveness is almost correct, but you're only seeing this in the rational way, a theoretical point of view of a shinobi. But you're not being contextual, as there is also an idiot like Naruto in that place. Any wrong move and Sasuke could force a bad reaction from Naruto's part. That's where leadership comes to be an important factor.
 
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WalksInShadows

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Sigh. , I hope you people understand Sasuke was going to talk while Naruto was being a moron. Noticed Sasuke completely ignored the bs he just said.
Naruto's verbal explosion towards Sasuke didn't start until after the latter pretty much unnecessarily went into d-bag mode. As others have pointed out, if he was going to eventually give an explanation it was hardly necessary to say what he said towards Kakashi & Sakura.

I hope at least you see the incongruency in Sasuke's act in last chapter.

I mean, dude, this is "war". It's clear every implicated person needs information to do something.

If Sasuke thought they were not of any use, he should just shut up.

He clearly said that he was directing. Please, what direction? There is a huge difference between direct people and boss them around.

You must be registered for see images


This is the core of my criticism. This is the proof of Sasuke not being fit to be a Hokage. Can you see the face expression of the subordinates in the images?
You must be registered for see images


Sasuke needed that line about becoming Hokage a lot more than Naruto did. Dude continually fails to realize that he can't seriously act the way he does and expect to become Hokage. Even Danzo knew that the perception of others mattered.
 

shelke

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As I'm stating (like four times already), Sasuke could keep silence without giving them any information. I don't disagree with Sasuke keeping the information for himself. So stop saying that we don't agree in this point, that's perfectly rational if you ask me.

The problem is other:

- He treats them like fodders
- He says he is directing, and that they can't do anything, hence they don't need to know what's happening
- ...and after Naruto's speech, Sasuke speaks

Sasuke's course of action in that situation could mean death for Kakashi and Sakura, and by transitivity for Naruto. Why? Because from now on, if Kakashi and Sakura were not members of Team 7, they might consider not following Sasuke's direction since he doesn't have touch to socialize with people, ergo, he is not charismatic, Sasuke wouldn't convince people to do something. In the case of Naruto, Kakashi and Sakura not being members of the Team 7, Kakashi and Sakura going outside of the Susano would trigger Naruto going outside to save them and thus finishing the war.

We could see the situation in three variations.

1) The current case: "They don't need to know since they're powerless, but then Sasuke tells them".

Bad move. Very pragmatic, but extremely risky considering the presence of Naruto.

2) The case of staying shut: "Team 7 members wouldn't act without information and Naruto could stay collected".

3) The case of speaking without objections: Members of Team 7 would have the information as case 1, but Sasuke would be more charismatic, thus being more trustworthy and could lead with more ease the team.

As I said earlier, your description of the need of assertiveness is almost correct, but you're only seeing this in the rational way, a theoretical point of view of a shinobi. But you're not being contextual, as there is also an idiot like Naruto in that place. Any wrong move and Sasuke could force a bad reaction from Naruto's part. That's where leadership comes to be an important factor.

The point is, Sasuke has always been arrogant, and let's face it, there is a maw of difference between their powers. It's just a fact and he has always been vocal about it. He probably lashed out at Sakura as he has - together with Naruto - saved her how many times now? It's important to tell her her place as far as the war tiers go. She's weak and now, quite frankly speaking useless. His words are harsh, but they ring with truth. Sometimes, it's important to tell people the truth no matter how harsh it may be.

If he doesn't, she might rush outside again, ruining everything. So, it's important that he stresses her position and same is the case with Kakashi. Why should he remain silent, when the chances of them trying something stupid are colossal? That way, Naruto might go out and ruin things, putting the whole world in jeopardy. It's no time for etiquette man, but straight responses.

I will not agree with your second point at all, and my post covers it mostly. Not telling them means they would make rash decisions. Remember Sakura rushing at Madara for no reason? Even if he tells them about Limbo, they won't understand as they cannot sense or see it. So, there is no point. What the better solution? Tell them bluntly that they're useless. The shame would instill the gravity of the situation.

Remember, there are times when harsh language is most effective or even punishment. For example if a 4 year old starts to cross a busy road, it's recommended that he should be punished with a tight slap. Why? Because parents will not get another change to reinforce his behaviour. Sasuke may not be a parent, but he can see Limbo, he can recall viable information, which Naruto again failed at: "Who is Kaguya?" This means, the guy isn't that reliable in this department. So that leaves him to reinforce their behaviour with bluntness.

Sasuke is a prodigy and can easily take Kakashi's role, but can Kakashi do the same if he isn't told that he is useless? Keep that in mind that there is nothing stopping Kakashi and Sakura to do something stupid, especially the latter. That would galvanize Naruto into action, making him do something utterly preposterous in turn, and if he's killed then what?

The situation is too delicate for pleasantries, I'm afraid. Far too delicate, as it's not a matter of one nation, one country, but the whole world. Why should Sasuke indulge them is beyond me. Bluntness is the way to achieve the best results here. That's all I'll say.

Sasuke needed that line about becoming Hokage a lot more than Naruto did. Dude continually fails to realize that he can't seriously act the way he does and expect to become Hokage. Even Danzo knew that the perception of others mattered.

Because, that's obviously how Hokages achieved their merit - through the opinion of every citizen. Democracy, correct?
 
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WalksInShadows

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Because, that's obviously how Hokages achieved their merit - through the opinion of every citizen. Democracy, correct?
read my post again, and this time read it better. Did i mention anything about the civvies? No. I said "perception of others". Meaning being in good enough graces with whoever is important enough to bestow the title on someone.
 
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shelke

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read my post again, and this time read it better. Did i mention anything about the civvies? No. I said "perception of others". Meaning being in good enough graces with whoever is important enough to bestow the title on someone.

Clearly Tobirama and Hiruzen were in every body's good books. Or am I missing something in regards to the coup? There are also very few civilians within Konoha, given that it's a military village.

The perception of everyone means little to the Hokage title or a Kage title for that matter. Don't know which manga you're even reading.
 

WalksInShadows

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Clearly Tobirama and Hiruzen were in every body's good books. Or am I missing something in regards to the coup? There are also very few civilians within Konoha, given that it's a military village.

The perception of everyone means little to the Hokage title or a Kage title for that matter. Don't know which manga you're even reading.
it's sad that even when told to read a post again and better, you still completely disregard or show a failure to comprehend what it was i was saying *facepalm*

What is it about "being in good enough graces with whoever is important enough to bestow the title on someone" that is so hard for you to comprehend?
 

shelke

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it's sad that even when told to read a post again and better, you still completely disregard or show a failure to comprehend what it was i was saying *facepalm*

What is it about "being in good enough graces with whoever is important enough to bestow the title on someone" that is so hard for you to comprehend?

I have read your posts, you are probably the one who needs to see a bit of different perspective here as I am crystal clear with my posts. The title of the Kage can even be bestowed by Tsunade now. Do you think his attitude would matter to her? Are kakashi and Sakura in a position to give him a title? Is the Jounin council active? Oh wait, they are dead.

Would the Country Leader care Sasuke was a - in your opinion - harsh to them? Give me a break. Which is why I have repeatedly pointed it out - Hokages can be appointed on various circumstances, being in good graces with everyone or no one means little to the important lobby. When the country leader would learn that Sasuke has a rare Sharingan that turned the tides of war, he'll be bothered by his attitude?

There you go. Sasuke can be popular with no one in Konoha and can still get the title.
 
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