[Discussion] Infinite Tsukuyomi inferior to Izanagi?

[SixPathsOfTobi]

Then I will ask you again, can you prove your "reality"?

If a man walks of a ledge, he will fall? What if in that man's head, he is flying. Then in his "reality" he will not have fallen, he would be flying. Reality is a term, as with any word, created by humans to explain a common belief of something in existence. "Reality" isn't created by man, the word simply describe a thing the majority agree with. Also, Itachi Uchiha is directly saying that people believe what they want, they believe what reality they want, but in the end that reality may turn out to another illusion. Every word of that quote goes against your "point".
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the man can think he was flying as much as he want but he will be dead. not flying. you do it right by putting reality in that context in quotes, cause it's not reality it's what he perceives as reality for some reason, maybe he's on drugs or something.

Itachi's quote goes hand in hand with what i'm saying.. he says man believes whatever he want but what they call reality might turn out to be not reality, but illusion.

And yes i can prove my reality just give me a statist or whatever and see the contradictions they will spew out, but then again your probably one of those as well. but we're debating here wether perception is reality, and you agree with me in the words you use, but you don't agree with me consciously...

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

Actually, you're wrong, and the reason relies in Itachi's quote.

Using your example, from that delusion two realities would appear.

1. My reality would be seeing a guy being knocked in the face.
2. His reality would be deluding me, acting as him being knocked in the face.

Why two realities and not one with truth and falsehoods?

there is just one reality and that is that the dude did not get knocked into his face.. the rest is deluded perception.
Why does the word perception even exist if it's interchangeable with the word reality.

Because nobody can't trust in their senses to interpret reality as it is. Itachi told it when he spoke about "right" and "true". And you are included in this statement.

He says that people believe a lot of crap and incorrectly call it reality cause really a lot of the time it's an illusion, because they're deceived by their senses or just deceived by others, cause they believe in stead of investigate and experience and get to know truth.. yes truth can be known.

Also



Each person has its own senses, so each person thinks certain events are right or true, thus making of reality a subjective plane.

each person thinks about certain events if they're true or not, but if the event happened then the event happened.. someone thinking that it didn't doesn't change anything about that.

 

[Shinato]

the man can think he was flying as much as he want but he will be dead. not flying. you do it right by putting reality in that context in quotes, cause it's not reality it's what he perceives as reality for some reason, maybe he's on drugs or something.

Itachi's quote goes hand in hand with what i'm saying.. he says man believes whatever he want but what they call reality might turn out to be not reality, but illusion.

And yes i can prove my reality just give me a statist or whatever and see the contradictions they will spew out, but then again your probably one of those as well. but we're debating here wether perception is reality, and you agree with me in the words you use, but you don't agree with me consciously...

Now, who's the one who is deluded? You claim to know what I agree and disagree with, yet you claim that I don't know? You're calming yourself to know what I think better than I do myself. You are neglecting the chance of being wrong, that itself is ignorant which is what I have been trying to tell you. Itachi says two things, he says that "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms, he also says that what people see as reality may turn out to be nothing but an illusion. It doesn't go hand in hand with what you are saying, it goes directly against it. Simply because one person's reality turns out to be an illusion to another person, doesn't make that an illusion to the person who owns the said "reality".

 

[Mr Hiru]

there is just one reality and that is that the dude did not get knocked into his face.. the rest is deluded perception.

That's the fundamental problem... you are no one to determine if that event is truth or not, because the term truth is vague. Even telling that "there is just one reality" is easily rebuttable, because there is no proof to determine the uniqueness of this so called reality.

Furthermore, Itachi never stated that there is an absolute truth. He only spoke about truth being vague, so you're purposely infering about the existence of "one reality", when I perfectly could say "that's your reality, thus respectable, it is based on your imperfect senses, so I can't blindly believe in you".

I could only believe in a "god" (if it exists) with omniscient senses that tells me what reality is (and even I could not interpret his/her words as truth, because my senses are imperfect).

If we live in four dimensions (3D and time), it would be funny that out there is another dimension that multiply the timeline, ensuring the existence of parallel dimensions. This would directly destroy the uniqueness of the reality (as you call it). The again, this is just a crazy way to infer the possibility of the existence of parallel worlds.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

I haven't even stated my view of reality, yet you call be ignorant? I have stated that your, and my view of reality may not be correct, and they aren't to some. Reality is simply how people see the world, however it can and it will always be wrong to some people. People are different, we see the world differently, we experience the world differently, we are different. Feel free to bring up your "subjects", but if your point in doing so is to go on a personal attack on me, then you've already lost this debate.

I agree that you or mine view of reality might not be correct, though parts of reality i know and understand and ARE correct, cause truth can be known. but the incorrectness has nothing to do with other people.. it has to do with what actually happened what we're wrong about. not if some other thinks differently.. that's his perception or the conclusion he made on whatever knowledge he has, but the reality remains the reality..

perception and reality are not interchangeable words.. yes people call things they're wrong about reality, but that doesn't make it reality


reality
re·al·i·ty
[ree-al-i-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural re·al·i·ties for 3, 5–7.
1.
the state or quality of being real.
2.
resemblance to what is real.
3.
a real thing or fact.
4.
real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5.
Philosophy .
a.
something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b.
something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.

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[LogicnoJutsu]

As we have seen Infinite Tsukuyomi is in fact just a normal genjutsu that is amplified a thousand fold by the moon. It cannot be broken by normal means and holds the victim in the genjutsu world forever even if they know they are in genjutsu. (I suspect the last point)

What I mean by a "normal" genjutsu is that it only affects the users minds and fools them into believing certain falsehoods. Izanagi however effects the user's own reality it makes fantasy reality.

Essentially it effects the user's reality itself. As we have seen the world has not been remade or created a new. Ergo Infinite Tsukuyomi does not alter reality in any way. Hence I believe that IT is in fact simply an extremely pervasive extremely powerful genjutsu not a reality altering jutsu.

In all honesty I'm kind of disappointed, I expected Infinite Tsukuyomi to be a literal reality altering jutsu that could remake the world as Madara wished. Not a simple life support system via the God tree combined with a pervasive super genjutsu supplied by the moon. I mean its ripped right off the Matrix lol.

I almost feel let down....

I suppose inferior is too strong a word, I just rate the ability to alter reality as you see fit to be a superior ability over all compared to a super genjutsu.

Consumes Everyone in the world except Main Characters and Hokages. And you're dissapointed -.-

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

Now, who's the one who is deluded? You claim to know what I agree and disagree with, yet you claim that I don't know? You're calming yourself to know what I think better than I do myself. You are neglecting the chance of being wrong, that itself is ignorant which is what I have been trying to tell you. Itachi says two things, he says that "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms, he also says that what people see as reality may turn out to be nothing but an illusion. It doesn't go hand in hand with what you are saying, it goes directly against it. Simply because one person's reality turns out to be an illusion to another person, doesn't make that an illusion to the person who owns the said "reality".

I am right on this there's no other option, cause it's reality, not my reality, but the reality we're living, toherwise there would be contradictions or the definition of the word reality would be erased and equalized to the definition of the word perception. you're saying that reality doesn't exist the only thing that exists is peoples own little bubble, their own perception, that's reality according to you.. NO that's what they might PERCEIVE as reality it is NOT ACTUAL REALITY, unless their perception is in line with reality it's just their little bubble.

That's the fundamental problem... you are no one to determine if that event is truth or not, because the term truth is vague. Even telling that "there is just one reality" is easily rebuttable, because there is no proof to determine the uniqueness of this so called reality.

Furthermore, Itachi never stated that there is an absolute truth. He only spoke about truth being vague, so you're purposely infering about the existence of "one reality", when I perfectly could say "that's your reality, thus respectable, it is based on your imperfect senses, so I can't blindly believe in you".

I could only believe in a "god" (if it exists) with omniscient senses that tells me what reality is (and even I could not interpret his/her words as truth, because my senses are imperfect).

the term truth isn't vague, the definition is clear, people just use it too loosely on stuff they don't actually know but just assume or believe. that's what makes it vague.
there is absolute proof of this reality, put it to the test, if you want to do something that you don't know (are ignorant about) is deadly and someone warns you you will die if you do it, also if the dude didn't warn you.

Ever heard stories of dudes on psychodelic mushrooms flying around? no but you have heard (at least i have) about them falling to dead because they thought they could fly.

 

[Mr Hiru]

I agree that you or mine view of reality might not be correct, though parts of reality i know and understand and ARE correct, cause truth can be known. but the incorrectness has nothing to do with other people.. it has to do with what actually happened what we're wrong about. not if some other thinks differently.. that's his perception or the conclusion he made on whatever knowledge he has, but the reality remains the reality..

perception and reality are not interchangeable words.. yes people call things they're wrong about reality, but that doesn't make it reality


reality
re·al·i·ty
[ree-al-i-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural re·al·i·ties for 3, 5–7.
1.
the state or quality of being real.
2.
resemblance to what is real.
3.
a real thing or fact.
4.
real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5.
Philosophy .
a.
something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b.
something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.

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Why should I accept the definition made by a mere human?

What if (considering this definition) there are parallel worlds out there? (multiple timelines).

You can't prove the uniqueness of reality, and I can't prove the existence of other parallel worlds.

I can only speak about the subjective nature of human senses. You're speaking about philosophy, and thus respectable, I don't accept it, because it eludes a lot of possibilities that have not been discovered or given rebuttal yet. If multiple timelines were discovered thanks to science, then all these definitions would be just wrong.

Pink note:

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reality n	([sb]'s perception of truth)	realidad nf
	Her reality is different than ours.

This said, reality is not unique.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

Why should I accept the definition made by a mere human?

ok so we're in agreement that you make your own definitions of words and that we're talking about completely different things here this whole time?

What if (considering this definition) there are parallel worlds out there? (multiple timelines).

then there are parallel worlds out there.

You can't prove the uniqueness of reality, and I can't prove the existence of other parallel worlds.

Reality is still reality if there are parralel worlds then that's the reality, they're not different realities, things go differently there but so do things go different in afrika then in europe...

I can only speak about the subjective nature of human senses. You're speaking about philosophy, and thus respectable, I don't accept it, because it eludes a lot of possibilities that have not been discovered or given rebuttal yet. If multiple timelines were discovered thanks to science, then all these definitions would be just wrong.

truth is to be discovered, i don't say i consciously know it all. and thus am for example able to create superior technology ad whatever..

But reality or truth has nothing to do with peoples perception, the only effect that that has on reality is that they make deluded choices that affect reality..

Pink note:

You must be registered for see links

reality n	([sb]'s perception of truth)	realidad nf
	Her reality is different than ours.

This said, reality is not unique.

it's not noted as the principal translation but as an alternate version.. your not the only one to make this confused definition, that makes the words reality and perception interchangeable.. that's why we're in the deluded mess we're in, because people have this kind of childish mentality that if you don't look it's not there. ignorance is bliss.

 

[young1]

Preception is key 2 one's reality, buh it doesn't make dat reality true. It's lyk comparing a blind man n a man who sees... Even d man who sees still may hve a reality dat is nt "true"=D

 

[Mr Hiru]

truth is to be discovered, i don't say i consciously know it all. and thus am for example able to create superior technology ad whatever..

But reality or truth has nothing to do with peoples perception, the only effect that that has on reality is that they make deluded choices that affect reality..

Then I'd suggest you to read my last post again.

...We agree that perception is not reality, but at least I know reality is percetion.

These terms are not involved in a relation, but in a function.

...sorry man, but it seems like the discussion bought us a jump from logic to ideology. I don't believe in philosophers as you do. I believe in what I can percieve.

I won't keep bothering you. Thanks for discussing.

 

[valandil988]

Holy shit never expected to start a flame war....

I was only expressing dissatisfaction with IT not anything else. Izanagi by definition alters reality, the facts. Mortal wounds are negated. Physical facts are altered. IT does nothing of the sort, it just dominates the senses of those trapped. Just because they cannot perceive true reality doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's why I'm disappointed in IT, because of Izanagi I was expected the ultimate genjutsu to be able to change all the facts of reality. To truly create a new world....

I define reality to be fact whether or not we can perceive those facts is immaterial, thinking about it steps into the realm of philosophy, "If a tree falls in a forest with no witnesses does it make a sound?" is the age old question, which has the answer "Yes" I'm not so arrogant as to believe that the world stops on the account of myself not being there to observe it.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

...We agree that perception is not reality, but at least I know reality is percetion.

the reality is that people perceive things wether true or not, the reality is that people often believe that things that aren't true are real, the reality is that things that are real (not declared real by a person or whatever) are real.

I define reality to be fact whether or not we can perceive those facts is immaterial, thinking about it steps into the realm of philosophy, "If a tree falls in a forest with no witnesses does it make a sound?" is the age old question, which has the answer "Yes" I'm not so arrogant as to believe that the world stops on the account of myself not being there to observe it.

Indeed, i'm going to end this here, cause it's clear to me that we're not debating the same thing they just pervert the definition of a word, making the discussion impossible, or making them actually agree with me and having a different term for reality maybe it's billibop or whatever.

 

[Mr Hiru]

Indeed, i'm going to end this here, cause it's clear to me that we're not debating the same thing they just pervert the definition of a word, making the discussion impossible, or making them actually agree with me and having a different term for reality maybe it's billibop or whatever.

Lol such arrogance. If that's what you think, then I'm happy of being a perverted man. At least I'm opened to possibilities, and by irony, this makes me being very humble towards the points of view of other people.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

Lol such arrogance. If that's what you think, then I'm happy of being a perverted man. At least I'm opened to possibilities, and by irony, this makes me being very humble towards the points of view of other people.

when you know and understand something it's hard to get turned into a illusion.

and this simple principle i know and understand, you pretend to know and understand it too though and you call me arrogant for making that claim..

and i thought we were in agreement that we were talking about completely different things when using the world reality.

 

[valandil988]

the reality is that people perceive things wether true or not, the reality is that people often believe that things that aren't true are real, the reality is that things that are real (not declared real by a person or whatever) are real.



Indeed, i'm going to end this here, cause it's clear to me that we're not debating the same thing they just pervert the definition of a word, making the discussion impossible, or making them actually agree with me and having a different term for reality maybe it's billibop or whatever.

Lol such arrogance. If that's what you think, then I'm happy of being a perverted man. At least I'm opened to possibilities, and by irony, this makes me being very humble towards the points of view of other people.

Wow wow guys calm the gas

Here is the definition from wiki:

"Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined"

Ergo reality is fact. Perception can be either lies or truth, or even a mix depending on the point of view and how much that particular point of view can discern about the world.

We assume a great deal about the reality we exist in, we use logic to fill in the gaps to leap across that which we can't see or experience. Nobody can discern the truth because nobody ever will be able to see and experience the full picture.

So really I'm not quite getting what you guys are arguing about. You both seem to be making these two points:

"Reality is fact"

And

"Perception is fallible"

Umm guys these two points are both correct lol

Ergo the statement:

"We perceive reality."

 

[Mr Hiru]

when you know and understand something it's hard to get turned into a illusion.

and this simple principle i know and understand, you pretend to know and understand it too though and you call me arrogant for making that claim..

and i thought we were in agreement that we were talking about completely different things when using the world reality.

Read your words then, each word you have written in this thread.

Mostly in this last answer, you have been filling your own ego with the claim of "you" being the "only one" who "have the knowledge and understanding" of reality.

You completely ignored the last link I put, I don't know if you did purposely or whatever... the fact is that you're the kind of guy that won't accept others point of view, even if they bring definitions of manga pages or dictionaries. Instead of this, you ignore their supports and keep insisting with your own point of view and self-reference.

If that is not arrogance, if that is not 'the reality' you call so much (the unique think there is and other things being just falsehoods), then what? Do you expect all the world agree with you because you think being right, and other point of views are just shit (if they don't agree with you)?

Grow up...

 

[young1]

Slow dwn y'all, isn't d topic abt infinite tsukuyomi n izanagi? Bashing nt allowed

 

[Shinato]

Slow dwn y'all, isn't d topic abt infinite tsukuyomi n izanagi? Bashing nt allowed

Its about how the two Genjutsus affect reality, which is why we are discussing how reality can be affected, altered and seen.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

Read your words then, each word you have written in this thread.

Mostly in this last answer, you have been filling your own ego with the claim of "you" being the "only one" who "have the knowledge and understanding" of reality.

You completely ignored the last link I put, I don't know if you did purposely or whatever... the fact is that you're the kind of guy that won't accept others point of view, even if they bring definitions of manga pages or dictionaries. Instead of this, you ignore their supports and keep insisting with your own point of view and self-reference.

If that is not arrogance, if that is not 'the reality' you call so much (the unique think there is and other things being just falsehoods), then what? Do you expect all the world agree with you because you think being right, and other point of views are just shit (if they don't agree with you)?

Grow up...

Where exactly do is say i am the only one who has the understanding on this simple concept (not what entire reality includes, only some aspects, but here we're talking about the simple concept of reality vs perception) i'm saying you clearly don't

I didn't ignore the last link you put you edited that in, i saw that and edited it in my post after that.

when someone is stating bullshit and is convinced of a deluded idea that largely contributes to the crappy state of humanity that we are in now i'm trying to shake them awake in the hope they will once see the bullshit contradictions they spew out.

i already said that we are in agreement (apparently your not for some reason) that we were talking about different stuff when using the word reality, you say it means perception, i say it means reality. you say i ignore your (alternate) definition you looked up to suit yourself, yet you ignore the one i posted, i say we're in agreement we're talking about something different, i made clear to you what i was talking about when using the word reality you made clear what you're talking about, your saying i keep insisting on my points of view yet you do the same.
you seem to ignore the definitions that valandil988 posted which also agree with me, as is the principal translation in your link.

it's not about agreement, i don't expect anyone to believe me, cause believing is just as bad as ignoring.. i want to make it clear so you understand it.. it's not like we're talking about an event that has happened, we're talking about a freaking simple concept.

You tell me to grow up, but you are in a harder need of that, yes i'm continuously trying to learn more etc. but are you? or are you in a statist school for example repeating what the book says and accepting that as reality and continuing that kind of practice after you go off from school etc..

EDIT: maybe you like this:
[video=youtube;4Z19MhP5FeE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z19MhP5FeE[/video]