[Discussion] Infinite Tsukuyomi inferior to Izanagi?

[valandil988]

As we have seen Infinite Tsukuyomi is in fact just a normal genjutsu that is amplified a thousand fold by the moon. It cannot be broken by normal means and holds the victim in the genjutsu world forever even if they know they are in genjutsu. (I suspect the last point)

What I mean by a "normal" genjutsu is that it only affects the users minds and fools them into believing certain falsehoods. Izanagi however effects the user's own reality it makes fantasy reality.

Essentially it effects the user's reality itself. As we have seen the world has not been remade or created a new. Ergo Infinite Tsukuyomi does not alter reality in any way. Hence I believe that IT is in fact simply an extremely pervasive extremely powerful genjutsu not a reality altering jutsu.

In all honesty I'm kind of disappointed, I expected Infinite Tsukuyomi to be a literal reality altering jutsu that could remake the world as Madara wished. Not a simple life support system via the God tree combined with a pervasive super genjutsu supplied by the moon. I mean its ripped right off the Matrix lol.

I almost feel let down....

I suppose inferior is too strong a word, I just rate the ability to alter reality as you see fit to be a superior ability over all compared to a super genjutsu.

 

[Mattek2008]

Well....it's infinite and global...how is it a let down? We haven't even seen the dreamworld yet, only the people affected by it.

Patience, B. Patience.

 

[valandil988]

Well....it's infinite and global...how is it a let down? We haven't even seen the dreamworld yet, only the people affected by it.

Patience, B. Patience.

Yeah I understand that, it is a global technique but its effects are a real let down. Compared to other sharingan jutsu which as I have mentioned can effect reality itself, the ultimate genjutsu is just that a genjutsu...

 

[Mr Hiru]

As we have seen Infinite Tsukuyomi is in fact just a normal genjutsu that is amplified a thousand fold by the moon. It cannot be broken by normal means and holds the victim in the genjutsu world forever even if they know they are in genjutsu. (I suspect the last point)

What I mean by a "normal" genjutsu is that it only affects the users minds and fools them into believing certain falsehoods. Izanagi however effects the user's own reality it makes fantasy reality.

Essentially it effects the user's reality itself. As we have seen the world has not been remade or created a new. Ergo Infinite Tsukuyomi does not alter reality in any way. Hence I believe that IT is in fact simply an extremely pervasive extremely powerful genjutsu not a reality altering jutsu.

In all honesty I'm kind of disappointed, I expected Infinite Tsukuyomi to be a literal reality altering jutsu that could remake the world as Madara wished. Not a simple life support system via the God tree combined with a pervasive super genjutsu supplied by the moon. I mean its ripped right off the Matrix lol.

I almost feel let down....

I suppose inferior is too strong a word, I just rate the ability to alter reality as you see fit to be a superior ability over all compared to a super genjutsu.

I'd beg to differ.

IT is still affecting the people's reality, because reality is what people can percieve with their senses.

With IT, people would be living in a new different reality (one reality per people).

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

IT is still affecting the people's reality, because reality is what people can percieve with their senses.

deluded fool.. perception is not reality.. the reality in the naruto world is now that people live in an illusion and the reality is that they're covered by a tree hanging around not what they perceive is the case.

they're being controlled and don't even notice it.. they're slaves and they're not aware..
they're what humanity is in the real world.

 

[Shinato]

deluded fool.. perception is not reality.. the reality in the naruto world is now that people live in an illusion and the reality is that they're covered by a tree hanging around not what they perceive is the case.

If you go up to a person who is hallucinating and tell them that its not real, do you think they will believe you? Reality is what we believe it is, not what others decide it to be.

 

[saw2097]

It was said that it was nothing but an illusion the entire time, it was never once said that it would actually alter reality.

Reality is the real world, an illusion is nothing but a dream, tell me when you dream of being able to fly does that mean you can actually fly.

That's why the IT world is called the dream world, its just a dream.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

If you go up to a person who is hallucinating and tell them that its not real, do you think they will believe you? Reality is what we believe it is, not what others decide it to be.

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true."
That's what they call "reality."
However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms.
Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. - Uchiha Itachi.

that's a illusion.. there's only one truth, one reality the rest is illusion. you're not the arbiter of truth, you can't just del;ude yourself and say that's reality. cause the reality still remains the reality.

this is the kind of thinking that the satanist powers that be have brought into the world, so people like to remain ignorant, cause if i put my head in the sand nothing that i don't like is true. the ignorance is bliss mentality that keeps us in bondage.

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[VongolaX]

Inzanagi changes the reality that revolves around you.

Infinite Tsukyomi is warping the nightmare realm around you and all others on earth.

 

[Shinato]

-Snip-

Would you please provide me with the proof that this "reality" which we currently live in, is indeed the actual "reality" you speak of? More so, do you have any evidence that proves that what we live in right now isn't an "illusion"? You are falling for your own argument here. Unless you can prove that this is indeed the "reality" of which you speak of, then it may very well be an illusion.

 

[saw2097]

Would you please provide me with the proof that this "reality" which we currently live in, is indeed the actual "reality" you speak of? More so, do you have any evidence that proves that what we live in right now isn't an "illusion"? You are falling for your own argument here. Unless you can prove that this is indeed the "reality" of which you speak of, then it may very well be an illusion.

Reality is the real world, you have been watching way too many movies like Inception and the Matrix. Dreams and illusions aren't a result of some alternate world or alternate possibility, its just a result of our brains injecting images to us.

A dream can't hurt you, a illusion can't kill you, if a rock falls on you in a dream you wake up, if a rock falls on you in reality you die.

Reality can hurt you, reality can kill you, pretending that illusions or hallucination are real, is like sitting in a room that is on fire and pretending that it won't hurt you, you are still going to die even if you imagine that you aren't.

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

Would you please provide me with the proof that this "reality" which we currently live in, is indeed the actual "reality" you speak of? More so, do you have any evidence that proves that what we live in right now isn't an "illusion"? You are falling for your own argument here. Unless you can prove that this is indeed the "reality" of which you speak of, then it may very well be an illusion.

You need to look for truth yourself, don't believe, get to know. yes most people live in ignorance and if you don't see that then you're blind..

real eyes realize real lies.

 

[Mr Hiru]

deluded fool.. perception is not reality.. the reality in the naruto world is now that people live in an illusion and the reality is that they're covered by a tree hanging around not what they perceive is the case.

they're being controlled and don't even notice it.. they're slaves and they're not aware..
they're what humanity is in the real world.

Reality is a very subjective phenomena, not an absolute one. In the real world, even you can't say you're living in reality because your senses are not perfect, and more important, they are not omniscient.

Perception IS what let people know about "their respective" reality, limited by their sensorial capacity.

If you go up to a person who is hallucinating and tell them that its not real, do you think they will believe you? Reality is what we believe it is, not what others decide it to be.

Exactly my point. Reality for people with schizophrenia in a lift would be sometimes being able to see the numbers in the controlling panel, and sometimes these numbers would dissappear. If you ask what they see, they would answer based on their own reality.

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true."
That's what they call "reality."
However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms.
Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. - Uchiha Itachi.

that's a illusion.. there's only one truth, one reality the rest is illusion. you're not the arbiter of truth, you can't just del;ude yourself and say that's reality. cause the reality still remains the reality.

this is the kind of thinking that the satanist powers that be have brought into the world, so people like to remain ignorant, cause if i put my head in the sand nothing that i don't like is true. the ignorance is bliss mentality that keeps us in bondage.

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I have seen too much times that image, so save it (that image doesn't even have anything to do with this thread).

There is a thing that I'm sure about: You can't ensure you're living in a reality. Only someone with infinite perceptiveness prowess could have enough omniscient capacity to see the full spectrum of reality and tell who is right or wrong when speaking about illusions, and there is no such a thing like infinite perceptiveness prowess, thus making impossible to see the reality as it is.

Reality is a subjective concept. You just gave me the reason when summoning Itachi's quote.

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true."
That's what they call "reality."
However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms.
Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. - Uchiha Itachi.

 

[Shinato]

You need to look for truth yourself, don't believe, get to know. yes most people live in ignorance and if you don't see that then you're blind..

real eyes realize real lies.

Real eyes and a real mind will see and understand the possibility of being wrong. You are claiming that most people live in ignorance, yet you cannot prove that they are ignorant. All you "prove" is that you have a different view than them, a different perspective of reality than them.
​

 

[Mr Hiru]

Real eyes and a real mind will see and understand the possibility of being wrong. You are claiming that most people live in ignorance, yet you cannot prove that they are ignorant. All you "prove" is that you have a different view than them, a different perspective of reality than them.
​

+1 with this. SixPathsOfTobi is speaking poetry, but can he prove what he says?

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

Reality is a subjective concept. You just gave me the reason when summoning Itachi's quote.

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true."
That's what they call "reality."
However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms.
Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. - Uchiha Itachi.

Reality is not subjective.. if a dude pretends to get knocked in the face and you perceived that as him getting knocked in the face then you're deluded, cause the reality remains that the dude did not get knocked in the face.

Reality stands loose from peoples perceptions. you can perceive whatever you want but when you walk over the edge of the grand canyon you will fall.

You use itachi's quote and i will quote it again

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true."
That's what they call "reality."
However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms.
Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. - Uchiha Itachi

 

[SixPathsOfTobi]

Real eyes and a real mind will see and understand the possibility of being wrong. You are claiming that most people live in ignorance, yet you cannot prove that they are ignorant. All you "prove" is that you have a different view than them, a different perspective of reality than them.
​

don't talk about perception being reality if you accept the bold part. how can you be wrong about reality if your perception is reality.

my guess is that your ignorant so if i would bring up certain subjects you will show your ignorance. i don't believe and if i don't completely know something and assumptions or whatever are made i will make that clear and especially will not lie to myself.. if people weren't ignorant we wouldn't have government.

 

[Shinato]

Reality is not subjective.. if a dude pretends to get knocked in the face and you perceived that as him getting knocked in the face then you're deluded, cause the reality remains that the dude did not get knocked in the face.

Reality stands loose from peoples perceptions. you can perceive whatever you want but when you walk over the edge of the grand canyon you will fall.

You use itachi's quote and i will quote it again

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true."
That's what they call "reality."
However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms.
Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. - Uchiha Itachi

Then I will ask you again, can you prove your "reality"?

If a man walks of a ledge, he will fall? What if in that man's head, he is flying. Then in his "reality" he will not have fallen, he would be flying. Reality is a term, as with any word, created by humans to explain a common belief of something in existence. "Reality" isn't created by man, the word simply describe a thing the majority agree with. Also, Itachi Uchiha is directly saying that people believe what they want, they believe what reality they want, but in the end that reality may turn out to another illusion. Every word of that quote goes against your "point".
​

 

[Mr Hiru]

Reality is not subjective.. if a dude pretends to get knocked in the face and you perceived that as him getting knocked in the face then you're deluded, cause the reality remains that the dude did not get knocked in the face.

Reality stands loose from peoples perceptions. you can perceive whatever you want but when you walk over the edge of the grand canyon you will fall.

You use itachi's quote and i will quote it again

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true."
That's what they call "reality."
However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms.
Their reality could turn out to be an illusion. - Uchiha Itachi

Actually, you're wrong, and the reason relies in Itachi's quote.

Using your example, from that delusion two realities would appear.

1. My reality would be seeing a guy being knocked in the face.
2. His reality would be deluding me, acting as him being knocked in the face.

Why two realities and not one with truth and falsehoods?

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true."
That's what they call "reality."
However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms.
Their reality could turn out to be an illusion.

Because nobody can't trust in their senses to interpret reality as it is. Itachi told it when he spoke about "right" and "true". And you are included in this statement.

Also

People live their lives bound by what they see as "right" and "true."
That's what they call "reality."
However, "right" and "true" are nothing but vague terms.
Their reality could turn out to be an illusion.

Each person has its own senses, so each person thinks certain events are right or true, thus making of reality a subjective plane. Each person is different... so... obviously reality will be different for every people. Itachi said it.

 

[Shinato]

don't talk about perception being reality if you accept the bold part. how can you be wrong about reality if your perception is reality.

my guess is that your ignorant so if i would bring up certain subjects you will show your ignorance. i don't believe and if i don't completely know something and assumptions or whatever are made i will make that clear and especially will not lie to myself.. if people weren't ignorant we wouldn't have government.

I haven't even stated my view of reality, yet you call be ignorant? I have stated that your, and my view of reality may not be correct, and they aren't to some. Reality is simply how people see the world, however it can and it will always be wrong to some people. People are different, we see the world differently, we experience the world differently, we are different. Feel free to bring up your "subjects", but if your point in doing so is to go on a personal attack on me, then you've already lost this debate.